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> One Church, Vatican document on Ecumenism
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Camac
Posted: 24-Jun-2008, 09:02 AM
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QUOTE (oldraven @ 24-Jun-2008, 08:57 AM)
I forgot the part of the Gospel where Jesus appointed a Pope, and chose Rome to lead his people.

oldraven;

Isn't that the part where J.C. says to Peter "Upon this rock I will build my church", As to Rome; if your going to spread a religion why not start with the guys in charge? After all it was said that all roads lead to Rome.


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Patch 
Posted: 24-Jun-2008, 09:05 AM
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QUOTE (Patch @ 24-Jun-2008, 02:32 AM)
QUOTE (Robert Phoenix @ 23-Jun-2008, 04:38 PM)
I was looking over his post and he mentioned that he was a member of the Ukrainian Catholic church. This is in full communion with the Roman rite of the Catholic church but it is slighly different in emphasis on crtain things.  Wikipedia article is here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Catholic_Church
I also suspect he may have been a member of the Priestly Society of Saint Josept.
In 2001 a priest, Fr. Vasil Kovpak, and a small group of followers opposed to certain policies (such as de-latinisation) and ecumenism of the UGCC hierarchy, organized themselves as the Priestly Society of Saint Josaphat. The PSSJ possesses close ties with the Traditionalist Catholic Society of Saint Pius X, which rejects and condemns certain actions and policies of both Cardinal Husar and of the Pope. On November 21, 2007 the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith excommunicated Fr. Kovpak.  This may be the reason why he believed that some of the ecumenism by the Vatican may be consisdered a scandal.  I wonder if he realizes that the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutherans have already made some progress and have agreed upon, some years back already, on the issue of justification by faith and the acceptance of the role of Mary is becoming more widespread amoung various Protestant denominations.

It is strange that we didn't hear of the excommunication in the in my church. There have been instances where priests are relieved of all priestly duties but still are allowed to remain in the Catholic faith. Excommunication is being removed from all aspects of the church. Pretty harsh!

Slàinte,    

Patch    

Ok, I read it. The papers of excommunication were first prepared in 2003 by a Cardinal (who has no power to excommunicate) The Holy See did not excommunicate him. The papers were redone and filed again in 2007 and no action appears to have been taken by the Church to date. This, as any thing else in the Church, is a slow process. I may be wrong but I doubt it will happen this time. I suspect he might loose his authority to administer the rites of the church. We had a church in the U.S. where the Priest was performing gay marriage ceremonies and committing other violations of the faith. His authority was removed by the Church but he was not removed from the Church. As I recall he moved and formed his own church still loosely based on Catholicism but with no financial help from the Catholic organization.

Slàinte,    

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Camac
Posted: 24-Jun-2008, 09:12 AM
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QUOTE (Patch @ 24-Jun-2008, 09:05 AM)
QUOTE (Patch @ 24-Jun-2008, 02:32 AM)
QUOTE (Robert Phoenix @ 23-Jun-2008, 04:38 PM)
I was looking over his post and he mentioned that he was a member of the Ukrainian Catholic church. This is in full communion with the Roman rite of the Catholic church but it is slighly different in emphasis on crtain things.  Wikipedia article is here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Catholic_Church
I also suspect he may have been a member of the Priestly Society of Saint Josept.
In 2001 a priest, Fr. Vasil Kovpak, and a small group of followers opposed to certain policies (such as de-latinisation) and ecumenism of the UGCC hierarchy, organized themselves as the Priestly Society of Saint Josaphat. The PSSJ possesses close ties with the Traditionalist Catholic Society of Saint Pius X, which rejects and condemns certain actions and policies of both Cardinal Husar and of the Pope. On November 21, 2007 the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith excommunicated Fr. Kovpak.  This may be the reason why he believed that some of the ecumenism by the Vatican may be consisdered a scandal.  I wonder if he realizes that the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutherans have already made some progress and have agreed upon, some years back already, on the issue of justification by faith and the acceptance of the role of Mary is becoming more widespread amoung various Protestant denominations.

It is strange that we didn't hear of the excommunication in the in my church. There have been instances where priests are relieved of all priestly duties but still are allowed to remain in the Catholic faith. Excommunication is being removed from all aspects of the church. Pretty harsh!

Slàinte,    

Patch    

Ok, I read it. The papers of excommunication were first prepared in 2003 by a Cardinal (who has no power to excommunicate) The Holy See did not excommunicate him. The papers were redone and filed again in 2007 and no action appears to have been taken by the Church to date. This, as any thing else in the Church, is a slow process. I may be wrong but I doubt it will happen this time. I suspect he might loose his authority to administer the rites of the church. We had a church in the U.S. where the Priest was performing gay marriage ceremonies and committing other violations of the faith. His authority was removed by the Church but he was not removed from the Church. As I recall he moved and formed his own church still loosely based on Catholicism but with no financial help from the Catholic organization.

Slàinte,    

Patch    

Patch;

We had the same situation here in Toronto where a Priest was in flagrant violation of Canonical was defrock so went out and started his own church. Methinks you really have to screw up before the hammer of excommunication falls.

Camac.


               
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Patch 
Posted: 24-Jun-2008, 10:02 AM
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QUOTE (Camac @ 24-Jun-2008, 03:12 AM)
QUOTE (Patch @ 24-Jun-2008, 09:05 AM)
QUOTE (Patch @ 24-Jun-2008, 02:32 AM)
QUOTE (Robert Phoenix @ 23-Jun-2008, 04:38 PM)
I was looking over his post and he mentioned that he was a member of the Ukrainian Catholic church. This is in full communion with the Roman rite of the Catholic church but it is slighly different in emphasis on crtain things.  Wikipedia article is here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Catholic_Church
I also suspect he may have been a member of the Priestly Society of Saint Josept.
In 2001 a priest, Fr. Vasil Kovpak, and a small group of followers opposed to certain policies (such as de-latinisation) and ecumenism of the UGCC hierarchy, organized themselves as the Priestly Society of Saint Josaphat. The PSSJ possesses close ties with the Traditionalist Catholic Society of Saint Pius X, which rejects and condemns certain actions and policies of both Cardinal Husar and of the Pope. On November 21, 2007 the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith excommunicated Fr. Kovpak.  This may be the reason why he believed that some of the ecumenism by the Vatican may be consisdered a scandal.  I wonder if he realizes that the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutherans have already made some progress and have agreed upon, some years back already, on the issue of justification by faith and the acceptance of the role of Mary is becoming more widespread amoung various Protestant denominations.

It is strange that we didn't hear of the excommunication in the in my church. There have been instances where priests are relieved of all priestly duties but still are allowed to remain in the Catholic faith. Excommunication is being removed from all aspects of the church. Pretty harsh!

Slàinte,    

Patch    

Ok, I read it. The papers of excommunication were first prepared in 2003 by a Cardinal (who has no power to excommunicate) The Holy See did not excommunicate him. The papers were redone and filed again in 2007 and no action appears to have been taken by the Church to date. This, as any thing else in the Church, is a slow process. I may be wrong but I doubt it will happen this time. I suspect he might loose his authority to administer the rites of the church. We had a church in the U.S. where the Priest was performing gay marriage ceremonies and committing other violations of the faith. His authority was removed by the Church but he was not removed from the Church. As I recall he moved and formed his own church still loosely based on Catholicism but with no financial help from the Catholic organization.

Slàinte,    

Patch    

Patch;

We had the same situation here in Toronto where a Priest was in flagrant violation of Canonical was defrock so went out and started his own church. Methinks you really have to screw up before the hammer of excommunication falls.

Camac.

As I recall, the church used excommunication as a veiled threat in the 40's (If you messed up bad enough you could be excommunicated and burn in hell) but the last one was over two hundred years ago. Priests are taken care of pretty well. They are not paid as in the protestant religions. Once they leave the umbrella of Catholicism, they are at the mercy of "the collection plate" and may lead a pretty spartan existence. My parish has about 2500 members and when the annual giving is averaged one comes up with about $7.00 per member per week. If a person had a following of a couple of hundred, at that rate, there would be $1,400 a week to cover ALL expenses. In a major city, that would be a very poor existence! That is the ultimate punishment. He might be sleepomg in a pew, heating soup on a hot plate and doing his laundry dishes and personal cleansing in a bathroom sink.

Slàinte,   

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Posted: 24-Jun-2008, 10:04 AM
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QUOTE (Camac @ 24-Jun-2008, 09:12 AM)
QUOTE (Patch @ 24-Jun-2008, 09:05 AM)
QUOTE (Patch @ 24-Jun-2008, 02:32 AM)
QUOTE (Robert Phoenix @ 23-Jun-2008, 04:38 PM)
I was looking over his post and he mentioned that he was a member of the Ukrainian Catholic church. This is in full communion with the Roman rite of the Catholic church but it is slighly different in emphasis on crtain things.  Wikipedia article is here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Catholic_Church
I also suspect he may have been a member of the Priestly Society of Saint Josept.
In 2001 a priest, Fr. Vasil Kovpak, and a small group of followers opposed to certain policies (such as de-latinisation) and ecumenism of the UGCC hierarchy, organized themselves as the Priestly Society of Saint Josaphat. The PSSJ possesses close ties with the Traditionalist Catholic Society of Saint Pius X, which rejects and condemns certain actions and policies of both Cardinal Husar and of the Pope. On November 21, 2007 the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith excommunicated Fr. Kovpak.  This may be the reason why he believed that some of the ecumenism by the Vatican may be consisdered a scandal.  I wonder if he realizes that the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutherans have already made some progress and have agreed upon, some years back already, on the issue of justification by faith and the acceptance of the role of Mary is becoming more widespread amoung various Protestant denominations.

It is strange that we didn't hear of the excommunication in the in my church. There have been instances where priests are relieved of all priestly duties but still are allowed to remain in the Catholic faith. Excommunication is being removed from all aspects of the church. Pretty harsh!

Slàinte,    

Patch    

Ok, I read it. The papers of excommunication were first prepared in 2003 by a Cardinal (who has no power to excommunicate) The Holy See did not excommunicate him. The papers were redone and filed again in 2007 and no action appears to have been taken by the Church to date. This, as any thing else in the Church, is a slow process. I may be wrong but I doubt it will happen this time. I suspect he might loose his authority to administer the rites of the church. We had a church in the U.S. where the Priest was performing gay marriage ceremonies and committing other violations of the faith. His authority was removed by the Church but he was not removed from the Church. As I recall he moved and formed his own church still loosely based on Catholicism but with no financial help from the Catholic organization.

Slàinte,    

Patch    

Patch;

We had the same situation here in Toronto where a Priest was in flagrant violation of Canonical was defrock so went out and started his own church. Methinks you really have to screw up before the hammer of excommunication falls.

Camac.

Couldn’t one say much the same about “JC” himself? (A disgruntle employee starting his own business?)

J.C. Me. Not him.


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Patch 
Posted: 24-Jun-2008, 10:17 AM
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Couldn’t one say much the same about “JC” himself? (A disgruntle employee starting his own business?)

J.C. Me. Not him.


Yes, one could and some do. Some religions say Jesus was a prophet, (Islam being one) a few ignore his "existence" and some believe he is the Son of God. We will not know until our time is done or maybe the "end of time". (which allegedly according to the bible, Nostradamus, the Mayan calender and an ancient method of Chinese fortune telling, will be in 2012.) That could be a whole other discussion.

Slàinte,    

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Posted: 24-Jun-2008, 02:06 PM
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QUOTE (Camac @ 24-Jun-2008, 09:02 AM)
Isn't that the part where J.C. says to Peter "Upon this rock I will build my church", As to Rome; if your going to spread a religion why not start with the guys in charge? After all it was said that all roads lead to Rome.

The papacy claimed spiritual descent from Peter, when it was founded some hundreds of years later, but I think maybe that's a ways from saying that Jesus appointed Peter as the first Pope. The thing about "upon this rock . . . " was a pun on Peter's name as translated into Greek: Petrus, or "rock;" and what Jesus might have meant by the word which is glossed as "church" in that passage is very likely not the Roman church as it later developed. Then of course, if you read Acts and the epistles, you see that Rome was only one center of apostolic activity, and it had no real claim to supremacy in the spread of the early church just because the world power was still seated there.
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Camac
Posted: 24-Jun-2008, 07:29 PM
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QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 24-Jun-2008, 02:06 PM)
QUOTE (Camac @ 24-Jun-2008, 09:02 AM)
Isn't that the part where J.C. says to Peter "Upon this rock I will build my church", As to Rome; if your going to spread a religion why not start with the guys in charge? After all it was said that all roads lead to Rome.

The papacy claimed spiritual descent from Peter, when it was founded some hundreds of years later, but I think maybe that's a ways from saying that Jesus appointed Peter as the first Pope. The thing about "upon this rock . . . " was a pun on Peter's name as translated into Greek: Petrus, or "rock;" and what Jesus might have meant by the word which is glossed as "church" in that passage is very likely not the Roman church as it later developed. Then of course, if you read Acts and the epistles, you see that Rome was only one center of apostolic activity, and it had no real claim to supremacy in the spread of the early church just because the world power was still seated there.

stoirmeil;

I am not really up on the history of Christianity, or Catholicism and correct me if I'm wrong but I believe in the days of the early christian church the two biggest communities were in Jerusalem and Antioch. It really wasn't until later that a community established by Peter arose in Rome.



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Posted: 24-Jun-2008, 07:29 PM
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QUOTE (UlsterScotNutt @ 24-Jun-2008, 08:46 AM)
I am against his banishment.
UlsterScotNutt

Ulster my friend, you are intitle of your opinion and I greatly respect that but if I may,and please don't think that I'm trying to sermon you this is not my point here. But here are some guidelines that Paul established here for ALL members to respect them. Here some of them that I think this member completely disregard.

QUOTE
Remember that as a club, there are certain responsibilities that we have to our neighbors and ourselves. Perhaps the club may have a welcoming party for new members, remember it is important that members get to know you if you choose to participate. (First impressions do count!)
You will also come to know what is acceptable and what is not because the community will let you know!

So with that, I would like to present you with a guide to the CelticRadio.net community message forums!

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5. Don't be a coward. Just because your online does not mean that we don't know whom you are. Don't say things that you would not normally say face to face. This site uses extensive logging and we can trace you if we have to.
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We appreciate your help and support in following these guidelines. With the member ranks growing day by day it becomes more important that we all try to keep CelticRadio.net a great place to visit.

And I trust in your good judgment that you'll understand the banishment for this member. Who quite frankly did nothing to gain respect from the members here who just wanted to express their opinions. Mine included.

P.S. Please forgive me but I am relieved by the decision that stevenpd has taken.

Thanks dear friend, smile.gif LOA


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Posted: 24-Jun-2008, 07:45 PM
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QUOTE (Camac @ 24-Jun-2008, 07:29 PM)
I am not really up on the history of Christianity, or Catholicism and correct me if I'm wrong but I believe in the days of the early christian church the two biggest communities were in Jerusalem and Antioch. It really wasn't until later that a community established by Peter arose in Rome.



Camac.

Oh, certainly, and it's been years myself since I've read about it. I guess I would say that anything in Peter's lifetime would have been "early church," especially relative to roman catholicism and the papacy. An early community in the city of Rome would not yet be the Roman Church as it has come down to the present.
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Posted: 24-Jun-2008, 08:07 PM
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QUOTE
And I trust in your good judgment that you'll understand the banishment for this member. Who quite frankly did nothing to gain respect from the members here who just wanted to express their opinions. Mine included.

P.S. Please forgive me but I am relieved by the decision that stevenpd has taken.

Thanks dear friend,  LOA



All thanks to the rules, but this is an UNMODERATED forum. We ALL enter here knowing that things could get pretty hot. We are NOT children and can defend ourselves! I say let him back in and face the outcome of his OUTRAGEOUS and ignorant posts!


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Posted: 24-Jun-2008, 09:27 PM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 24-Jun-2008, 02:07 PM)
QUOTE
And I trust in your good judgment that you'll understand the banishment for this member. Who quite frankly did nothing to gain respect from the members here who just wanted to express their opinions. Mine included.

P.S. Please forgive me but I am relieved by the decision that stevenpd has taken.

Thanks dear friend,  LOA



All thanks to the rules, but this is an UNMODERATED forum. We ALL enter here knowing that things could get pretty hot. We are NOT children and can defend ourselves! I say let him back in and face the outcome of his OUTRAGEOUS and ignorant posts!


beer_mug.gif

My personal opinion is that he had nothing to say that represented the Catholic church today. The rest of you had beaten him as evidenced by Royal resorting to personal attacks. The closest he came to insulting me (may have been meant as a compliment) was to include me with him in a Priestly order, or words to that effect. Should he be allowed back he could be disruptive in other topics too.

I do not care either way.

Slàinte,    

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Posted: 24-Jun-2008, 10:46 PM
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QUOTE (Patch @ 24-Jun-2008, 09:27 PM)
I say let him back in and face the outcome of his OUTRAGEOUS and ignorant posts!



It's not a kindness to the site or ultimately to him to entertain more of the same -- he ends up being a punching bag, and most of the interaction turns into an ugly troll-bait that drags the community down. It doesn't stay within unmoderated forums or site boundaries, either -- there were people he attempted to carry on his accusatory discussion with via private e-mails that he picked up from our member profiles when the site was blocked to him, and not in a reasonable or rational manner.
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Posted: 25-Jun-2008, 07:24 AM
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Ok. I'm glad he's gone. The guy was a classic Troll who would have kept on spreading his disease throughout CR. He's one of a million, and we'll see more like him again. Do not doubt it.

The bottom line, in my opinion, is the difference between Man's Church and Christ's Church. What parts of Christianity, of any denomination, is of direct influence of Jesus, and what parts came from those he left behind. I have much respect for the Apostles, but I'm not a Peterian, I'm a Christian. I base my views on Christ's words and works, not his followers. They had much to say, and most was good advice. But making new rules and creating positions of power for men was loosing the path and taking liberties. Some even used Christianity as a platform to attack Rome.

If Jesus could only hear us now. I imagine he'd say something to the effect of; "Oh, come on! Does it matter how has the 'better piece of bread' when you're all eating it the same. You're arguing like children over who loves me more."

Again, this is how I see it.


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Posted: 25-Jun-2008, 07:48 AM
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I hadn't realized he had gone that far. I have noticed that a few people feel they can get by with anything on the net. In a face to face if they became so insulting, someone would knock them off their bar stool. That fact tends to keep society polite with very few exceptions. Royal will move to another site and do the same. I doubt he had a love of Celtic music anyway.

Slàinte,    

Patch    

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