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> One Church, Vatican document on Ecumenism
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royalosiodhachain 
Posted: 19-Jun-2008, 04:48 AM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 18-Jun-2008, 10:00 PM)


But baiting trolls is one of my favorite things! biggrin.gif


beer_mug.gif

Dogstream, Rather than spouting insults why dont you try explaining this purported ignorance that you write of? So far you have not provided me nor anyone with any particular intelligence nor wisdom.
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royalosiodhachain 
Posted: 19-Jun-2008, 04:52 AM
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QUOTE (John Clements @ 18-Jun-2008, 02:05 PM)
Where the issue here? I donít see it.

John, Thank you for your wisdom and solidarity. You will be rewarded for your honesty. May God Bless you in the Holy Name of Christ and may you be in heaven in a whirlwind before any of your detractors know you are there!
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royalosiodhachain 
Posted: 19-Jun-2008, 04:56 AM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 18-Jun-2008, 08:06 PM)
QUOTE
Question # 1. What is offensive about the fact that the protestant communion is not the Sacred Body and Blood of Christ?

Question #2. What is unfounded about the assertion from the Vatican that the protestant communion is invalid?

Question #3 How do you presume yourself to be a higher authority than the Vatican regarding the validity of the protestant communion?



Who is the vatican to assume themself ANY sort of an authority? The catholic church is not the church of the christ, but is a church of man. NO man, not even the pope can know the mind of the Creator.
YOU, my friend are FAR and away TOO full of yourself!
And NO, I am NOT a protestant, I am of a non-christian church.

The mind of God has been made known through the prophets in the Holy Scriptures called the Bible and in the birth, death and resurrection of His only begotten Son who founded and gave authority to the Catholic church in the person of the Pope and his Bishops.

By the way, I am not full of myself, rather am full of Christ.
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royalosiodhachain 
Posted: 19-Jun-2008, 05:02 AM
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QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 18-Jun-2008, 08:22 PM)
The catholic church was started by Emporer Constantine and the office of pope was an appointment, christ didn't even enter the picture. AND having 2-3 popes at one time would seem that he doen't have a hand in it.
I strongly suggest you read your own church's history and not just "cherry pick" those tidbits you choose to belive.


beer_mug.gif

Dogshirt, Your information is historically incorrect. The entire library of historical record would easily prove your falseness, however suffice it to say that Christ established and gave authority to St Peter long before Constantine. I am in worship at the Ukrainian Catholic church which uses a Liturgy developed during the time of Constantine and that Liturgy reverts to the authority of Christ and Saint Peter, not Constantine. Constantine was merely a King who converted to Catholic and prevented persecution of the Christian and himself worshiped in Catholic doctrine. Constantine conferred no authority upon the Bishops nor Popes as he had no authority to do so, rather the Pope blessed the reign of Constantine and wished him well.
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royalosiodhachain 
Posted: 19-Jun-2008, 05:05 AM
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QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 18-Jun-2008, 01:45 PM)
The main thing, I believe, is to sort out strong opinions and convictions on the one hand, and unnecessarily insensitive ways to express them on the other. I'm OK with waiting to see where this goes, if it's possible to curb unfounded, inflammatory language like:

"The protestants pretend that they inherited the Eucharist which is utter nonsense as they have no Eucharist, only a fake version of it."


The statement I made is not inflammatory nor unfounded, it is entirely Catholic church doctrine regarding the false presentation of the protestants and the scandal given by it's falseness.
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Camac
Posted: 19-Jun-2008, 07:45 AM
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QUOTE (royalosiodhachain @ 19-Jun-2008, 05:02 AM)
QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 18-Jun-2008, 08:22 PM)
The catholic church was started by Emporer Constantine and the office of pope was an appointment, christ didn't even enter the picture. AND having 2-3 popes at one time would seem that he doen't have a hand in it.
I strongly suggest you read your own church's history and not just "cherry pick" those tidbits you choose to belive.


beer_mug.gif

Dogshirt, Your information is historically incorrect. The entire library of historical record would easily prove your falseness, however suffice it to say that Christ established and gave authority to St Peter long before Constantine. I am in worship at the Ukrainian Catholic church which uses a Liturgy developed during the time of Constantine and that Liturgy reverts to the authority of Christ and Saint Peter, not Constantine. Constantine was merely a King who converted to Catholic and prevented persecution of the Christian and himself worshiped in Catholic doctrine. Constantine conferred no authority upon the Bishops nor Popes as he had no authority to do so, rather the Pope blessed the reign of Constantine and wished him well.

Let get some Historical facts straight. Constantine was not a King, he was a Co- Emperor of the Roman Empire and became a Christian only on his deathbed. He use the political expediency of allying with the Christians in order to win the civil war he was involved in and become sole Emperor. Also Jesus was not a Christian he was a Jew who tried to reform the Jewish Faith. You might say he was a Protestant as he preached out against the Harshness of Judaism of the day. The name Christian is Greek for Followers of the Annointed One and was coined by Saul of Tarsus (St. Paul). The early Christian Church was nothing more than a small sect of Judaism.
I have been labled a "Fallen Catholic" well let me tell you I didn't fall 49 years ago I RAN just as fast as my feet would carry me. Catholicism is a man made organization with man made laws. From the time it allied with Constantine it used it political might to gain immense power and has never given it up.


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Patch 
Posted: 19-Jun-2008, 08:44 AM
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QUOTE (Camac @ 19-Jun-2008, 01:45 AM)
QUOTE (royalosiodhachain @ 19-Jun-2008, 05:02 AM)
QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 18-Jun-2008, 08:22 PM)
The catholic church was started by Emporer Constantine and the office of pope was an appointment, christ didn't even enter the picture. AND having 2-3 popes at one time would seem that he doen't have a hand in it.
I strongly suggest you read your own church's history and not just "cherry pick" those tidbits you choose to belive.


beer_mug.gif

Dogshirt, Your information is historically incorrect. The entire library of historical record would easily prove your falseness, however suffice it to say that Christ established and gave authority to St Peter long before Constantine. I am in worship at the Ukrainian Catholic church which uses a Liturgy developed during the time of Constantine and that Liturgy reverts to the authority of Christ and Saint Peter, not Constantine. Constantine was merely a King who converted to Catholic and prevented persecution of the Christian and himself worshiped in Catholic doctrine. Constantine conferred no authority upon the Bishops nor Popes as he had no authority to do so, rather the Pope blessed the reign of Constantine and wished him well.

Let get some Historical facts straight. Constantine was not a King, he was a Co- Emperor of the Roman Empire and became a Christian only on his deathbed. He use the political expediency of allying with the Christians in order to win the civil war he was involved in and become sole Emperor. Also Jesus was not a Christian he was a Jew who tried to reform the Jewish Faith. You might say he was a Protestant as he preached out against the Harshness of Judaism of the day. The name Christian is Greek for Followers of the Annointed One and was coined by Saul of Tarsus (St. Paul). The early Christian Church was nothing more than a small sect of Judaism.
I have been labled a "Fallen Catholic" well let me tell you I didn't fall 49 years ago I RAN just as fast as my feet would carry me. Catholicism is a man made organization with man made laws. From the time it allied with Constantine it used it political might to gain immense power and has never given it up.


Camac

I am like most Catholics today in that I do not follow all the edicts of the church. I look at the Pope more as the CEO, I do not believe birth control is wrong. I do not believe priests should be celibate. There are other things but those are the basics.

I choose to be a Catholic as others choose their affiliation or not. I would not attempt to influence anyones choice and expect the same courtesy. At the beginning of this topic it was suggested that it might turn into a series of attacks. It probably will/has. In my opinion there is no place for the radical element in ANY religion!

I heard the other day that george bush, following in the footsteps of his brother Jeb, is considering conversion to Catholicism. I realize that it isn't a very Christian thought, but I would rather he didn't!

Slŗinte,††††

Patch††††
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John Clements 
Posted: 19-Jun-2008, 08:52 AM
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QUOTE (royalosiodhachain @ 19-Jun-2008, 04:52 AM)
John, Thank you for your wisdom and solidarity. You will be rewarded for your honesty. May God Bless you in the Holy Name of Christ and may you be in heaven in a whirlwind before any of your detractors know you are there!

royalosiodhachain, wisdom perhaps, but solidarity, is a big no.
You see I was also raised a Catholic, until I found myself lying in confession, for having committed so called sins, whish turned out to be natural human behavior. And if thereís anything that I canít stand, itís lying, even if Iím lying to myself.

So I'm sorry if you misunderstood my poor attempt at a joke, but thatís what I believe about ďallĒ religion, and Iím entitled to express that belief, just as you are entitled to express yours.

JC


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subhuman 
Posted: 19-Jun-2008, 09:29 AM
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QUOTE
Subhuman, My statements are derived directly from Vatican documents, I have not speculated anything here. The question is do you respect the authority of the Vatican, if not simply say so. As far as trolls are concerned, you may find one staring at you from a mirror.

Ok, let's start with the trolls.
Dude, you just made ten posts in a row. One of them replying to yourself. I hope that conversation goes well for you. smile.gif
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Forum+troll
Even if you were somehow able to convince me you're not a troll (good luck with that, btw!) in most moderated forums you'd find yourself not being allowed to post for a few days. Lucky for you this is now in an unmoderated forum. I still recommend reading up on forum etiquette.

On to the original question.
Those documents were written and released by mere men. As such they are imperfect, and they make mistakes. They are not the word of god, they are man's interpretation of the word of god. There is a distinction between the two. Even more accurately, we should refer to it as "man's interpretation of the word of god, after it passed orally through many generations, was finally written down, then was revised countless times."

Do I respect the Vatican? I think you need to differentiate between "respect" and "blindly accept as truth."


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Drinking is a sport. In order to be competitive, you must practice on a regular basis. Although you can practice alone, it is much more fun to practice with friends. If you're out of shape and practice too hard, you will regret it the next day.

Life is a disease. It is sexually transmitted and always terminal.
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UlsterScotNutt 
Posted: 19-Jun-2008, 09:42 AM
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I agree with the topic name change. One of the reasons I posted the last 3 paragraphs of the Decree on Ecumenism was I felt the original topic title to be overzealous. In reading the Decree on Ecumenism I found the authors to be very careful in their chosen words and they expressed and I believe imply the same care be taken from the document. I chose to bold a particular part for this reason in my first posting and now this one.


" Catholics, in their ecumenical work, must assuredly be concerned for their separated brethren, praying for them, keeping them informed about the Church, making the first approaches toward them. But their primary duty is to make a careful and honest appraisal of whatever needs to be done or renewed in the Catholic household itself, in order that its life may bear witness more clearly and faithfully to the teachings and institutions which have come to it from Christ through the Apostles.

For although the Catholic Church has been endowed with all divinely revealed truth and with all means of grace, yet its members fail to live by them with all the fervor that they should, so that the radiance of the Church's image is less clear in the eyes of our separated brethren and of the world at large, and the growth of God's kingdom is delayed. All Catholics must therefore aim at Christian perfection(24) and, each according to his station, play his part that the Church may daily be more purified and renewed. For the Church must bear in her own body the humility and dying of Jesus,(25) against the day when Christ will present her to Himself in all her glory without spot or wrinkle.(26) "

Given in Rome at St. Peter's, November 21, 1964



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Patch 
Posted: 19-Jun-2008, 09:54 AM
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QUOTE (John Clements @ 19-Jun-2008, 02:52 AM)
royalosiodhachain, wisdom perhaps, but solidarity, is a big no.
You see I was also raised a Catholic, until I found myself lying in confession, for having committed so called sins, whish turned out to be natural human behavior. And if thereís anything that I canít stand, itís lying, even if Iím lying to myself.

So I'm sorry if you misunderstood my poor attempt at a joke, but thatís what I believe about ďallĒ religion, and Iím entitled to express that belief, just as you are entitled to express yours.

JC

That is ONE if the problems with confession in the Catholic church. People either do as they please, go to confession and go back to doing as they please till nest Thursday, they lie or they don't go. Those three situations probably cover 90% of all Catholics. The other 10% take the sacrament seriously. THEN, I am not really certain that the priest can absolve my sins.

JC you have hit the bulls eye. What faith if any each of us profess is our own business Leave me alone, I will leave you alone.

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UlsterScotNutt 
Posted: 19-Jun-2008, 10:53 AM
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QUOTE (royalosiodhachain @ 18-Jun-2008, 06:36 PM)
My post does not contain superficiality and imprudent zeal. I state a fact that is real. To love your brother does mean that you are honest with them regarding false behavior. If I were in your company and commiting mortal sin, do you mean to tell me that you would not say a word, considering that you were my true friend? That type of behavior does not exemplify love nor does it correct my falsehood. Nor does it correct the falsehood of the protestants to let them go on thinking they consume a valid Eucharist.

There are many ways to bring forth the differences between Christian brethren.

You choose your words to be sure others know they are wrongly different. Just your choice of topic title used a word that distracted from the true discussion. I believe your decision to use a lower case " p " in the proper noun Protestant, as in an "ecclesial Community" appears as a superficial need to diminish our Christian brethren. Within the Decree on Ecumenism, even the use of the word " Communities " is capitalized as it represents our brethren outside of the Catholic Church or the Eastern Church. There is a profound respect in this document and the word " fact " is not used..

How do your words differ to these from the Decree on Ecumenism:
Though the ecclesial Communities which are separated from us lack the fullness of unity with us flowing from Baptism, and though we believe they have not retained the proper reality of the eucharistic mystery in its fullness, especially because of the absence of the sacrament of Orders, nevertheless when they commemorate His death and resurrection in the Lord's Supper, they profess that it signifies life in communion with Christ and look forward to His coming in glory. Therefore the teaching concerning the Lord's Supper, the other sacraments, worship, the ministry of the Church, must be the subject of the dialogue.

23. The daily Christian life of these brethren is nourished by their faith in Christ and strengthened by the grace of Baptism and by hearing the word of God. This shows itself in their private prayer, their meditation on the Bible, in their Christian family life, and in the worship of a community gathered together to praise God. Moreover, their form of worship sometimes displays notable features of the liturgy which they shared with us of old.

Their faith in Christ bears fruit in praise and thanksgiving for the blessings received from the hands of God. Among them, too, is a strong sense of justice and a true charity toward their neighbor. This active faith has been responsible for many organizations for the relief of spiritual and material distress, the furtherance of the education of youth, the improvement of the social conditions of life, and the promotion of peace throughout the world.

While it is true that many Christians understand the moral teaching of the Gospel differently from Catholics, and do not accept the same solutions to the more difficult problems of modern society, nevertheless they share our desire to stand by the words of Christ as the source of Christian virtue, and to obey the command of the Apostle: "And whatever you do, in word or in work, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God the Father through Him".(41) For that reason an ecumenical dialogue might start with discussion of the application of the Gospel to moral conduct.

Given in Rome at St. Peter's, November 21, 1964
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I would say a word were you to be commiting a mortal sin. Perhaps we would differ in the manner we speak those words. Would both of our words exemplify love and correct the falsehood?



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Camac
Posted: 19-Jun-2008, 11:27 AM
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USN;

Just one question. When will Humanity outgrow these foolish superstitions?


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UlsterScotNutt 
Posted: 19-Jun-2008, 11:38 AM
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QUOTE (Camac @ 19-Jun-2008, 11:27 AM)
USN;

Just one question. When will Humanity outgrow these foolish superstitions?


Camac.

When we are no longer separated from the ground of our being, or another words when we know the why.
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 19-Jun-2008, 12:22 PM
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QUOTE (royalosiodhachain @ 19-Jun-2008, 04:52 AM)
John, Thank you for your wisdom and solidarity. You will be rewarded for your honesty. May God Bless you in the Holy Name of Christ and may you be in heaven in a whirlwind before any of your detractors know you are there!

Now wait a damned minute there! You make sure that's where he wants to be before you go wishing him blown to kingdom come. That's a little too much like boy scouts dragging a little old lady across the street, whether she wants to go or not. angel_not.gif

But to be serious for a moment -- why is it you think that your claim about the spurious nature of the Protestant sacrament as celebrated would NOT be inflammatory? You seem to have studied enough to impress people who have not studied at all, but are you so underprepared as a proselytizer and so people-inept as to come on as you have in a brand-new group of strangers you hope to influence? As to your claims -- you are presenting convictions as facts, and that makes you hidebound and intransigent, but no more right than anyone else -- and for that matter, no less wrong.
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