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Camac
Posted: 17-Apr-2008, 02:09 PM
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Scotborn;

If I may, I suggest that you read Arthur Hermans' book, How the Scots Invented the Modern World, The true story of how Western Europe's poorest Nation created our world and everything in it. The impact of the Scots on Canada far outweighs that of any other ethnic group in the Country. It was a Scots Regiment that defeated the French at Quebec. Most of the explorers who opened up the west and the north were Scots trappers and traders working for the Hudson Bay Company. The Metis Nation of western Canada are all decendents from either Scots or French trappers who married Native people. Our first Prime Minister Sir John A. Macdonald and the majority of the Fathers of ConFederation were Scots. Canada's longest sitting P.M. was William Lyon MacKenzie King. Granted there were other contributions from other peoples but their impact does not come anywhere near that of the Scots. Hell a Scots led one of Canadas two rebellions, William MacKenzie. He had to seek assylum in the States or be hung. The very town I live in was founded by a Scot named Chisholm and there are Quebecois named MacArthur. Our best (in my opinion) P.M was Pierre Elliott Trudeau half French half Scot.
               
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scotborn 
Posted: 18-Apr-2008, 08:18 AM
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thanks for the posts everyone, I have enjoyed talking about this subject and I have hope everyone has learned from me as I have them. And yeah I have heard ot the book "the modern scots..." , I may look it up sometime.


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CelticQueenCelticLord 
Posted: 03-Feb-2009, 12:24 AM
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This is t he first time I have heard this arguement. I was always taught that your heritage is who you are. I am kind of getting idea from here that if you were not born in Scotland or Ireland then you are neither. To me, I am Scott/Irish even if it is by decent. My Grandfather was first generation here. He didnt come here because that was his life long dream or a want, he came here because of his work. He remained in that work until he retired. I feel as much a Scott or Irish as someone born there even though I was born here. I dont have anything else in me except the English my father was and he does not claim it because he was raised German. Because of my Grandfather my Dad feels more Scott than anything else anyway.
So, please clarify all of this. Just because I was not born there, dont live there does not mean I am not a Scott. I guess it is all of what is in your heart. I dont mean to offend anyone either.


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oldraven 
Posted: 11-Mar-2009, 03:30 PM
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As I see it, what you 'are' is entirely dependant on where you hold citizenship. Your identity is a mixture of that and where you come from.


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"I am a Canadian by birth, but I am a Highlander by blood and feel under an obligation to do all I can for the sake of the Highlanders and their literature.... I have never yet spoken a word of English to any of my children. They can speak as much English as they like to others, but when they talk to me they have to talk in Gaelic."

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Camac
Posted: 11-Mar-2009, 03:49 PM
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oldraven;

I am a Canadian Citizen born in Scotland of Scottish Parents. My Mother and I came to Canada with my stepdad in 1947. By up bringing I am more Canadian than Scot but no one including the Creator can take from me the fact that I am a born Scot with the blood of the Campbells running through my veins. I love my heritage but to be totally honest Canada is my true Love it is my HOME.


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glaswegian 
Posted: 11-Mar-2009, 04:28 PM
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QUOTE (CelticQueenCelticLord @ 03-Feb-2009, 12:24 AM)
This is t he first time I have heard this arguement. I was always taught that your heritage is who you are. I am kind of getting idea from here that if you were not born in Scotland or Ireland then you are neither. To me, I am Scott/Irish even if it is by decent. My Grandfather was first generation here. He didnt come here because that was his life long dream or a want, he came here because of his work. He remained in that work until he retired. I feel as much a Scott or Irish as someone born there even though I was born here. I dont have anything else in me except the English my father was and he does not claim it because he was raised German. Because of my Grandfather my Dad feels more Scott than anything else anyway.
So, please clarify all of this. Just because I was not born there, dont live there does not mean I am not a Scott. I guess it is all of what is in your heart. I dont mean to offend anyone either.

You are not scottish and how can you feel scottish if you were never born and raised here.

You were entirelly shaped by where you were brought up and where you live. Where do you people get the audacity to call yourselves scots when you are not and I know for a fact that the scots do not accept you as scottish, you are a foreigner.

The scots are a culture of people, you need to be raised in the culture and live in it every day for it to create who you are. and By culture I dont mean bagpipes and burns night, that is tradition not culture.

you cannot feel scottish because you dont know what it means to be scottish, other than over the top sentemental nonsense which mosts scots I know cringe at.

you say its in you heart it is not, I am not scottish because I choose to be scottish, I am not scottish because I choose to be I have no power over that, I am scottish by matter of intangible accident and circumstance, to say I am anything else would be lying to myself.

and its spelt scot not scott.
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oldraven 
Posted: 12-Mar-2009, 06:32 AM
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To be fair to her, Scotborn, her being a Scot is a fantasy. Her seeing herself as a Scot is cultural. Don't drift on me now, I've got a point. wink.gif

Living in what was once a colony, and still is receiving immigrants daily, lends itself to referencing yourself to your heritage. Go anywhere in Canada or the US, and when most people ask you your name, and you say Reeves, or MacLean, they say "That's English/Scottish, right?" An Asian born in Canada is still seen as an Asian. I'm willing to bet it's not that different in the UK, since they are visible minorities, no matter how long they've lived there. This is racial, if not entirely Ethnic. Being born into this mix, a person isn't simply Canadian/American, by the culture we have of identifying one another.

Living in Scotland, you can no doubt assume that the average white guy walking past is a Scot. 9 times out of 10 you'll be right. Do the same here, and yes, you can assume they're Canadian, but that's not entirely how people here think. The history we are taught talks about nations from all over the world having their own parts in shaping the Country. Events involving so many different peoples, but all identified as French, English, Breton, Irish, Scot., Ukrainian, Russian, Jewish, you name it. If you sit in a room full of random people, you don't look to the guy at your left and think "He looks Canadian". How can you even identify what a Canadian looks like. He'd look like a jigsaw puzzle. In stead, you'd look to your left and think "He looks Scandinavian". He likely wasn't born there, but we still associate one another with our origins.

It's a very dominant part of our culture. That's not to say that we actually ARE any of these things, but it's easy to see how people can come to think this way. It has nothing to do with Audacity. It's simply being a victim of a colonial culture.
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Camac
Posted: 12-Mar-2009, 07:49 AM
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oldraven;

You'ii get no argument from me as you hit it right on the head.



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glaswegian 
Posted: 12-Mar-2009, 07:52 AM
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I can understand that there are visible differances between races. However, the scots are not a race, asian is a race. When yuo refer to yourself by race it is more appropriate to say you are european.

and for the record, america is no more multicultural than britian or france etc.

I have friends who are racially asian however they are no less scottish than me, they are not racially european, but they are fully scottish. Because, there is no racial differance between a scot, englishman, irishman, german etc. what seperates us is behavioural traits, culture, community, geography etc.
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oldraven 
Posted: 12-Mar-2009, 08:09 AM
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QUOTE (glaswegian @ 12-Mar-2009, 05:52 AM)
I can understand that there are visible differances between races. However, the scots are not a race, asian is a race. When yuo refer to yourself by race it is more appropriate to say you are european.

and for the record, america is no more multicultural than britian or france etc.

I have friends who are racially asian however they are no less scottish than me, they are not racially european, but they are fully scottish. Because, there is no racial differance between a scot, englishman, irishman, german etc. what seperates us is behavioural traits, culture, community, geography etc.

Thanks Camac.

Yes, Glaswegian, I should have said Chinese rather than Asian (Chinese immigrants have had a substantial influence on certain parts of Canada), or Swedish rather than Scandinavian, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make at all. What I was trying to say is that Colonial cultures identify themselves with their roots, because our history is taught to us with relation to these places of origin. Canadian history, as far as my family tree is concerned, only goes back to 1749. Beyond that, it's all separate European histories. We don't really have the luxury of knowing that our lines trace back to Canada in pre-history, no matter what its' name.

Like I said before, it doesn't excuse calling yourself a Scot, it just explains it.
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oldraven 
Posted: 12-Mar-2009, 08:15 AM
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oops. I see in my second last reply that I called you Scotborn, not Glaswegian. My apologies. I got you two confused.
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Camac
Posted: 12-Mar-2009, 08:29 AM
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draven;;
Because we are a country of immigrants and Canada is young as far as Nationhood goes none except for the Aboriginal population can trace their family in Canada back more than 350-360 years. My ex family came to Canada in 1656 befor that you have to go to Normandy to trace them. My stepdads family came in the early 1800s before that Argyllshire. For us to have any continuity we have to relate to our origins. As I said I am a Scot, born there but I seriously doubt I could live there as it is to different from what I was raised in. I have family there about 100 and I think I met most of them when I was there 2 years ago they are a great bunch of people but we really have little in common except for Blood. One thing I got a chuckle out of was when one of them asked if I lived close to the sea. I had to tell her no the Atlantic was about 1500 miles from where I live. She looked at me and then said "away with ye" she thought I was pulling her leg.


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oldraven 
Posted: 12-Mar-2009, 09:41 AM
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Nice. biggrin.gif It's funny, but people around here say that all the time if they think you're pulling a fast one. Get away with yeh. It kind of mildly proves a point about little bits of culture holding on in certain regions of the new world. Common traditions, so to speak.... literally to speak.
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Camac
Posted: 12-Mar-2009, 09:50 AM
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oldraven;
Those common threads are what hold us to our Heritage. I find myself at times repeating some of the sayings my Mother used and she had a lot of them all in the thick Scottish Brogue.


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glaswegian 
Posted: 12-Mar-2009, 10:06 AM
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QUOTE (oldraven @ 12-Mar-2009, 08:09 AM)
QUOTE (glaswegian @ 12-Mar-2009, 05:52 AM)
I can understand that there are visible differances between races. However, the scots are not a race, asian is a race. When yuo refer to yourself by race it is more appropriate to say you are european.

and for the record, america is no more multicultural than britian or france etc.

I have friends who are racially asian however they are no less scottish than me, they are not racially european, but they are fully scottish. Because, there is no racial differance between a scot, englishman, irishman, german etc. what seperates us is behavioural traits, culture, community, geography etc.

Thanks Camac.

Yes, Glaswegian, I should have said Chinese rather than Asian (Chinese immigrants have had a substantial influence on certain parts of Canada), or Swedish rather than Scandinavian, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make at all. What I was trying to say is that Colonial cultures identify themselves with their roots, because our history is taught to us with relation to these places of origin. Canadian history, as far as my family tree is concerned, only goes back to 1749. Beyond that, it's all separate European histories. We don't really have the luxury of knowing that our lines trace back to Canada in pre-history, no matter what its' name.

Like I said before, it doesn't excuse calling yourself a Scot, it just explains it.

I can understand those sentiments. The age of your country has no relevance on who you are. Just because your culture is younger does not mean that it is not who you are. And I am not disputing raven that you dont know who you are, I can see from your posts you well know.

Like most scots I will have roots in scanadanvia, germania, ireland etc. etc. But I am not scandanavian, german or irish.

I actually found out that I had a not a russian great uncle. I however would find it ridiculous and inconcievable to call myself russian.

However I think we both understand where each other is coming from. and I thank you for your posts.
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