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UlsterScotNutt 
Posted: 14-Apr-2008, 02:29 PM
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Lets see, A little history on Celtic. I know this topic is in several different forums under similar headings. And I do mean a very little.

Celtic is basically 3 different peoples, and the 3 were pre-Roman, the Gaels, a Celtic group who came from the continent and overtook all of the island of Britain, circa 500bc, the Britons, another Celtic group, about the same time ,who pushed the Gaels north to Scotland and west into Wales and the Scots of Ireland. Many smaller tribes did also exist within the 3 main groupings.
Then we have Scotland, Highlanders and Lowlanders. The Highlanders of centuries past are most likely overwhelmingly Celtic in ancestry. The Lowlanders are a much more diverse ancestry in the centuries past due to geography.
So, for Scottish you have aboriginal stone age peoples up to and including Pict and post-Pict then Gaels and Britons, the Celtic portion. Then a thousand years of Roman presence added the Romans themselves, the Teutonic Angles and Saxons, the Saxons dominating the eastern Lowlands for centuries, the Scots of Ireland, another Celtic group( from where Scotland gets its name) and the Norse, to include the Danes here as well, mostly adventurers and plunderers but did settle along with Normans, who pushed north after dealing with England and King David of Scotland invited many more. Then add Flemish traders (Franks and Celtic-Germanic Gauls) settling in the eastern lowlands and then the English of a mixed bag of Teutonic and Celtic background along with I'm sure many more.

That is my one paragraph 7,000BC to 1800AD history from were I'm sure most of the people are getting there "identities" from.

This makes being Celtic, Irish ( which I didn't get into), Scottish quite a complicated matter.

Again, I would mention that people discuss their understanding of what it means to BE Celtic, Irish or Scottish in social, cultural, mythological, political and in historical contexts. I would also add the literary in such genres like romantic, mythical, fantastical, popular, entertainment and pseudo-historical.

This is by no means comprehensive. I would just hope this was informative for the majority.


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LadyOfAvalon 
Posted: 14-Apr-2008, 07:07 PM
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QUOTE (scotborn @ 14-Apr-2008, 11:56 AM)
lady of avalon I think we will have to agree to disagree.

Hi scotborn,
You're in title of your opinion and I always respect others opinions.
However, I like you would ask that you explain your disagreement by explaining your opinion not just simply say that "we will have to agree to disagree".

All that I am trying to say here is that the Tartan Day is a celebration of what was important to the scottish culture which today like mine as a french canadian people are loosing bit by bit their sense of culture.

Thank you all the same for your short reply.LOA


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YDNAR1B1 
Posted: 15-Apr-2008, 12:00 AM
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So where did the "Celts" come from? For a long time, historians believed that the Celtic people of the British Isles were descendants of a tribe of Indo-Europeans who settled in central Europe several thousand years ago. The Romans called them the Gauls, but 18th century scholars adopted the term "Celts" from the ancient Greek name Keltoi. According to the traditional theory, the Celtic tribes began a period of expansion and military conquest about 3,000 to 5,000 years ago, and eventually conquered much of western Europe and the British Isles. What happened to the "native" western Europeans (the pre-Indo-Europeans) has been an enduring mystery. There are the Basques in Spain. There are also stories about mysterious tribes still living in Britain at the time of the Romans. Julius Caesar, who led the Roman invasion of Britain in 55 B.C., wrote that the "interior portion of Britain is inhabited by those of whom they say it is handed down by tradition that they were born on the island itself; the maritime portion by those who passed over from the country of the Belgae [Belgium] for purpose of plunder and making war…and having waged war, continued there and began to cultivate the lands." (De Bello Gallico, Book 5, sec.12.) The Belgae were a Celtic people who were skilled in metal-working and agriculture; the native Britons, according to Caeser, "do not sow corn [wheat], but live on milk and flesh, and are clad with skins." (Id., sec.14.)

Some time after the arrival of the Celts, the "native" Britons disappeared off the face of the earth. They left behind pottery, burial mounds, and some amazing archeaological relics like Stonehenge, but little else—or so it seemed. Genetic studies are now re-writing this history. Celtic people such as the Welsh and Irish speak Indo-European languages, but their Y-DNA is similar to that of the Basques. In other words, the Welsh and Irish appear to be more closely related to the non-Indo-European Basques than they are to Indo-European groups elsewhere in northern Europe, such as Germans and Scandinavians. This does not mean that the Basques were direct ancestors of the Celts or visa versa. It simply suggests that the Basques and the Celts have a common origin dating back many thousands of years to pre-historic western Europe, before the arrival of Indo-European tribes. Only the Basques managed to keep their ancestral language alive to the present day. In the British Isles and elsewhere, the people lost their original languages, probably as a result of trade, military conquest, and intermarriage with Indo-Europeans. According to many scholars, there is no evidence of a Celtic military invasion leading to total population replacement in the British Isles. There were probably periods of warfare, but other times when people traveled and traded peacefully. The ancient Britons may simply have adapted and evolved, and in the process, they became the people we know as "Celts."
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oldraven 
Posted: 15-Apr-2008, 06:36 AM
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Whoa! I'm all for being as informative as you possibly can be, but you should at least try to comment on the topic. wink.gif That post would be very much at home in many other threads (I can think of a few in 'The Celts' forum). Even when derailing, a poster should try to hold onto the original topic in some way.

As for what you've written there, a great way for anyone to understand how all of these things unfolded in a linear timeline is to pick up a book called The Illustrated Atlas of The Celtic World.

So, are we to forget our Island Celt heritage and look farther back to the Indo-Europeans? No. The cultures we hold to are the ones that were alive when our ancestors were all but forced out (more recently the clearances) of their homeland and drawn to this new land of wealth and opportunity. Those ideals were passed down here whilst the nations that inspired them moved on and evolved their cultures with modern times.

So anyone who has the gall (Gaul? wink.gif ) to say that this is not my culture, because I've never been the the place where the traditions originated, needs a sobering bout of perspective. It really is the only culture I've ever known.


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scotborn 
Posted: 15-Apr-2008, 07:29 AM
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QUOTE (Lady of Avalon @ 14-Apr-2008, 07:07 PM)
Hi scotborn,
You're in title of your opinion and I always respect others opinions.
However, I like you would ask that you explain your disagreement by explaining your opinion not just simply say that "we will have to agree to disagree".

All that I am trying to say here is that the Tartan Day is a celebration of what was important to the scottish culture which today like mine as a french canadian people are loosing bit by bit their sense of culture.

Thank you all the same for your short reply.LOA

ladyofavalon, I do not see nor have I experianced canadians or more specifically nova scotians, to display relevant scots culture. Tartan day is a canadian/american day celebrating a foreign point of view on the culture of scotland. This is not a bad thing. however, having visited canada I can say that canadians and americans have very opposite values to the scots and irish.

I have met "scottish" canadians and when they were in a room with native scots they had no clue about our real indigenous culture. They had no clue what we were talking about. They did not understand our point of view, beliefs and ... yes .... culture.

culture is something lived in everyday, it is not a one day a year interpretation of a culture developed and evolved three thousand miles away that has never been even visited let alone lived in. Nor can culture be understand or experianced from being read in a book. Many people say that culture has been passed through them from generation to generation. This I believe is bollocks, culture becomes watered down and ceases to exist when you dont live in that cultures host countries with the people that defines that culture. I have irish ancestors half of my family are irish and still live in ireland. I have visited ireland several times, and I do not see any aspects of my life that are entertwined with irish culture. Nor can I claim to understand irish culture.

any way ladyofavalon I hope this answer suffices, if not then please ask me any questions or tel me if you disagree

thanks




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oldraven 
Posted: 15-Apr-2008, 07:58 AM
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Again, Scotborn, you're talking modern culture.

And these cultural references ARE lived every day by many people. The music, the entire reason any of us are here, is the best example of this. Even it has evolved on this side of the Atlantic, but we all know where it came from. It's what's played on the local radio, community centres, and living rooms. I still don't consider myself Scottish, but I know my roots, and I know that much of the communities I have lived in all my life have various bits of the culture that has been passed down through the generations. If your remaining references to this culture were from two or three hundred years ago, of course it won't resemble the modern culture. Nova Scotian culture of today would be unrecognisable to a Nova Scotian of 100+ years ago. But trace signs and traditions of the old ways of life would still show through here and there.

No one here, that I can see, is claiming to have any connection to the Scotland of today. But rest assured, many of us got our cultural references from our own people and daily life, not from movies like Braveheart. Step dancing classes weren't once a year, they were every week, and we play our music every time we have a chance to do so (and I'm not talking about pressing play).
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gwenlee 
Posted: 15-Apr-2008, 08:52 AM
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Scotborn, perhaps you are overlooking the reason for Tartan Day and this whole pride of our origins. For one those of Scottish/Scot-Irish ancestry, ranks number 8 as an ethnic group here in the US. I can't speak for all but all most of us only want to honor and acknowledge the contributions that those people made. Yes it is true that we have a watered down version of culture, but lets face it Scotlands culture today probably doesn't represent the culture of the past either. Cultures evolved. I have heard from several of my Scottish friends that they see more kilts worn here in North America than they see in their homeland, but they don't take offense. Take offense but educate those who incorrectly say they are Scottish when it is only there ancestry. I don't know how others feel but I can't help but think that my ancestor would be happy that we are remembering them in some way. I know I have ancestors that would have rathered stayed across the pond but for political reason they were put on the North American shores. They worked hard and instilled values that now are a part of my family. So here I am a proud American who can say that I am proud of those who came before me and you Scotborn should be proud that you come from a country that had such an influence on us here in the USA.
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scotborn 
Posted: 15-Apr-2008, 09:24 AM
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QUOTE (gwenlee @ 15-Apr-2008, 08:52 AM)
Scotborn, perhaps you are overlooking the reason for Tartan Day and this whole pride of our origins. For one those of Scottish/Scot-Irish ancestry, ranks number 8 as an ethnic group here in the US. I can't speak for all but all most of us only want to honor and acknowledge the contributions that those people made. Yes it is true that we have a watered down version of culture, but lets face it Scotlands culture today probably doesn't represent the culture of the past either. Cultures evolved. I have heard from several of my Scottish friends that they see more kilts worn here in North America than they see in their homeland, but they don't take offense. Take offense but educate those who incorrectly say they are Scottish when it is only there ancestry. I don't know how others feel but I can't help but think that my ancestor would be happy that we are remembering them in some way. I know I have ancestors that would have rathered stayed across the pond but for political reason they were put on the North American shores. They worked hard and instilled values that now are a part of my family. So here I am a proud American who can say that I am proud of those who came before me and you Scotborn should be proud that you come from a country that had such an influence on us here in the USA.

gwen, if I may clear a few things up.

I did not say america has or is a version of watered down culture. On the contrary i have been to several locations in america and I find american culture as unique as anywhere in europe, I said that their definition of scottish culture is watered down.

I am aware that scotlands current culture is differant from its past, I emphazized this in my previous post.

It is indeed true that kilts are worn far more in america, than in scotland. This is irrelevant to the point I was making.

I can understand taking interest in your ancestors, I cannot understand taking specific interest in only one part of an americans heritage. The vast, vast majority of americans with scots heritage of many more ancestors who are not scottish i.e german, french, english etc.

scotland has also had no larger impact on americanl/canada than any other european nation. one of the countries denied the history they played in americas founding is england. I constantly hear americas claim that the founding father were predominantyl scottish, this is only part true they were also descended from the english/welsh/germans et. etc.
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gwenlee 
Posted: 15-Apr-2008, 10:58 AM
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QUOTE (scotborn @ 15-Apr-2008, 10:24 AM)
gwen, if I may clear a few things up.

I did not say america has or is a version of watered down culture. On the contrary i have been to several locations in america and I find american culture as unique as anywhere in europe, I said that their definition of scottish culture is watered down.

I am aware that scotlands current culture is differant from its past, I emphazized this in my previous post.

It is indeed true that kilts are worn far more in america, than in scotland. This is irrelevant to the point I was making.

I can understand taking interest in your ancestors, I cannot understand taking specific interest in only one part of an americans heritage. The vast, vast majority of americans with scots heritage of many more ancestors who are not scottish i.e german, french, english etc.

scotland has also had no larger impact on americanl/canada than any other european nation. one of the countries denied the history they played in americas founding is england. I constantly hear americas claim that the founding father were predominantyl scottish, this is only part true they were also descended from the english/welsh/germans et. etc.


Well Scotborn I guess you have to be one that is a decendent of those misplaced Scots to understand. I am sure there are those in Scotland who are pleased that there are those outside of Scotland who have an interest in keeping the past and culture alive. I know at this time Scotland is planning a gathering and I know a lot of us here are getting a lot of info about it. www.thegathering2009.com.
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oldraven 
Posted: 15-Apr-2008, 11:36 AM
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QUOTE (scotborn @ 15-Apr-2008, 07:24 AM)
I can understand taking interest in your ancestors, I cannot understand taking specific interest in only one part of an americans heritage. The vast, vast majority of americans with scots heritage of many more ancestors who are not scottish i.e german, french, english etc.

scotland has also had no larger impact on americanl/canada than any other european nation. one of the countries denied the history they played in americas founding is england. I constantly hear americas claim that the founding father were predominantyl scottish, this is only part true they were also descended from the english/welsh/germans et. etc.

Two very good points. I know that when someone asks me 'What I am', I say Canadian (Nova Scotian, depending on who's asking). They roll their eyes and I ask if they want to know who I descend from. The answer is always the same. English, Scottish, Irish and German, with a little bit of French and Scandinavian for spice. But overall, who I see as my ancestors are the Celts. Not only does it cover the majority of my heredity, but they are the people who I identify with. Don't read too much into the word 'identify' please. wink.gif

As for who has had a greater influence on our respective Nations, that depends on where. I feel that the Ukraine has had a very strong influence on the western Prairie Provinces, Alberta in particular. England on Ontario and B.C. (very much in B.C.). Take a guess at where Nova Scotia or Quebec gather their influences from. And it even gets down to areas within provinces, as there are large Irish communities in Newfoundland and Cape Breton.

It really is something that can not be understood unless you were raised in a nation that is a result of a culmination of others. It's what Multi-cultural societies do We identify with our origins. We also celebrate Ramadan, in Canada. Well, not all of us, but the whole Nation doesn't celebrate Tartan Day, either. We relate to one another in many ways, and one very common way is by where our 'families' came from.
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scotborn 
Posted: 15-Apr-2008, 01:00 PM
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I soppose you have to be a descendant to understand, anyway thanks for explaining to me.
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LadyOfAvalon 
Posted: 15-Apr-2008, 07:22 PM
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QUOTE (scotborn @ 15-Apr-2008, 08:29 AM)
QUOTE (Lady of Avalon @ 14-Apr-2008, 07:07 PM)
Hi scotborn,
You're in title of your opinion and I always respect others opinions.
However, I like you would ask that you explain your disagreement by explaining your opinion not just simply say that "we will have to agree to disagree".

All that I am trying to say here is that the Tartan Day is a celebration of what was important to the scottish culture which today like mine as a french canadian people are loosing bit by bit their sense of culture.

Thank you all the same for your short reply.LOA

ladyofavalon, I do not see nor have I experianced canadians or more specifically nova scotians, to display relevant scots culture. Tartan day is a canadian/american day celebrating a foreign point of view on the culture of scotland. This is not a bad thing. however, having visited canada I can say that canadians and americans have very opposite values to the scots and irish.

I have met "scottish" canadians and when they were in a room with native scots they had no clue about our real indigenous culture. They had no clue what we were talking about. They did not understand our point of view, beliefs and ... yes .... culture.

culture is something lived in everyday, it is not a one day a year interpretation of a culture developed and evolved three thousand miles away that has never been even visited let alone lived in. Nor can culture be understand or experianced from being read in a book. Many people say that culture has been passed through them from generation to generation. This I believe is bollocks, culture becomes watered down and ceases to exist when you dont live in that cultures host countries with the people that defines that culture. I have irish ancestors half of my family are irish and still live in ireland. I have visited ireland several times, and I do not see any aspects of my life that are entertwined with irish culture. Nor can I claim to understand irish culture.

any way ladyofavalon I hope this answer suffices, if not then please ask me any questions or tel me if you disagree

thanks

My dear friend scotborn,

In all honesty it is not the fact to "agree or disagree" here that we are talking about it is just a celebration of heritage.

Understand that the Americas like oldraven mention in one of his replies that we are countries with a variety of people and all kinds of celebration are celebrated all over the country and everybodies are invited.

You are a very lucky person to know and have origins and heritage you can relate to. I find it one of the great privilege in life,one that I don't have.
This is one privilege that I tought my husband to be aware of his origins and heritage that before we met did not even acknowledge. I think it's very important to know your roots and the meaning of it.

So, like I said to you scotborn you are in title of your opinion and others are too.
And I am sorry that you've met some canadians with scottish descendance that had no knowledge of your wonderful culture but don't forget some people even here don't know about our own culture unfortunately.But like gwenlee said instead of being insulted or feel humiliated,educate the ones that are interested in learning about yours ways. This is called being open minded.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me scotborn and good luck! smile.gif LOA
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UlsterScotNutt 
Posted: 16-Apr-2008, 12:01 PM
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"we are talking about it is just a celebration of heritage"

My Lady of Avalon, A celebration it is, good line.
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oldraven 
Posted: 16-Apr-2008, 12:48 PM
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QUOTE (scotborn @ 15-Apr-2008, 11:00 AM)
I soppose you have to be a descendant to understand, anyway thanks for explaining to me.

Not a problem, Scotborn. A point of view from the other side, so to speak, is always welcome, whether we agree or not. beer_mug.gif::thumbsup
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UlsterScotNutt 
Posted: 17-Apr-2008, 09:13 AM
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QUOTE (scotborn @ 15-Apr-2008, 09:24 AM)
gwen, if I may clear a few things up.

I did not say america has or is a version of watered down culture. On the contrary i have been to several locations in america and I find american culture as unique as anywhere in europe, I said that their definition of scottish culture is watered down.

I am aware that scotlands current culture is differant from its past, I emphazized this in my previous post.

It is indeed true that kilts are worn far more in america, than in scotland. This is irrelevant to the point I was making.

I can understand taking interest in your ancestors, I cannot understand taking specific interest in only one part of an americans heritage. The vast, vast majority of americans with scots heritage of many more ancestors who are not scottish i.e german, french, english etc.

scotland has also had no larger impact on americanl/canada than any other european nation. one of the countries denied the history they played in americas founding is england. I constantly hear americas claim that the founding father were predominantyl scottish, this is only part true they were also descended from the english/welsh/germans et. etc.

scotborn, I would like to jump in on your answer to gwenlee.

You are seeing a "specific interest in only one part of an americans heritage" because you are in the very specific forum for that purpose. I don't mean that to sound condescending in any way. But were else will you find such an appropriate site to "celebrate the heritage". Americans across the board celebrate a wide variety of heritages and partake in them at all different levels. We love to recognise and acknowledge who and from wence we came and are. I personally would love to see even more diversity of celebration.
I mentioned once before my sister celebrats our hispanic culture more than I do and I my Scots-Irish American side. This by no means divides, denies, degrades, or disrespects each of ours "other heritage" . Each vibrates to a different tune. I like green feathers and she likes red feathers. Life still comes to us all the same.

To think, like the author of the article does, that celebrating a heritage somehow is denigrating because it demeans the celebrant and/or the celebrated is wrong.

Now, to deny Scotland had a less than a very important role in founding this nation is a mistruth. The history of Scotland records tens of thousands of Lowlander Scots leaving for Ireland and the Americas in the 17th century. This was a very very formative time in the Americas. They were THE pioneer stock of the Americas. They were the first families to cross many rivers and mountains. They were truly the first to strike out in numbers from the urban centers of settlement. They were THE bulwark of the American Revolution and the truly first radicals in American politics.

Then came 200,000 Scots-Irish in the 18th century. Smack in the middle of the picture and pretty much all at once in the foundation historical timeline. They were all descendents of Scottish ancestry. They most definitely were predominate. They dominated the immigration flow, they dominated the settlement and growth of the colonies, they dominated the politics popular. Many an Englishmen both political and military commented on the Scots-Irish Presbyterian being THE reason for Revolution in the colonies. This is factual history. Yes, there were and are those Welsh/German/French/Polish/African/Dutch in the mix, ALL serving a great and needed purpose.

UlsterScotNutt
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