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> Government And Religion, Reciting the Lords' Prayer.
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Jillian 
Posted: 22-Jul-2008, 09:16 PM
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"The abandonment of "Moral Codes" is exactly where we're heading, and what I in too many words was trying to convey. That's the baby. Religion is just the bath water.
Theocratic dictatorship is only one possible response to the abscense moral code. Enlightened oligarchy in the mold of Socrates' philosopher king and beyond the power of the populace is quite another, and in my mind equally terrifying!"

Well said. Good topic and everyone's wings leveled out. Nicely done.

Jillian


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Jillian 
Posted: 22-Jul-2008, 09:27 PM
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My above comment was was quoting FamhairCloiche.
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Antwn 
Posted: 09-Aug-2008, 12:17 PM
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QUOTE (Jillian @ 22-Jul-2008, 09:16 PM)
"The abandonment of "Moral Codes" is exactly where we're heading, and what I in too many words was trying to convey. That's the baby. Religion is just the bath water.
Theocratic dictatorship is only one possible response to the abscense moral code. Enlightened oligarchy in the mold of Socrates' philosopher king and beyond the power of the populace is quite another, and in my mind equally terrifying!"

I don't think moral codes are being abandonded since I don't think they've been universally practiced in the first place, not now or ever, and despite their espousal in various religions, those religons themselves have exemplified history's most egregious examples of their abandonment. So what baby and what bath water are we talking about?

The source of the fear I think is that if we don't have religion, where will we get our morality, and what authority will anyone fear enough to adhere to it? Morality is a human invention as is religion. Throughout history mankind has invented some sort of moral code, survived to reconfigure it according to some new religious invention. Perhaps its time finally to ask if we've outgrown the cosmic babysitter paradigm and are ready to utilize the only real authority we've ever used consistently for the invention of moral codes, our conscience.

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." --Einstein

Well then, mankind seems to have been "in a poor way" for millennia. Perhaps its always been our conscience that has given birth to our moral codes, with or without superstitions. They were just invented to provide some authority outside ourselves to authenticate what we already know and feel to be right. Can we grow up enough to simply rely on ourselves?

Our religious fictions remain the source of our most overt and catastrophic immoral events to this day. This is the great lie of religion, that man cannot trust himself but must trust some Big Boss in the heavens, even if it fails him, when all along man has not only trusted himself, but invented his beliefs, his morals and his authorities without any provable outside influence. We may not avert our conflicts by taking my suggestion, but at least we'd take responsibility for them, which might cause us to enact choices with a bit more forethought and wisdom.

I don't think we can do much worse than what we've done with thousands of years of religious influence. To use a 12 step phrase, have we hit bottom yet?


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Camac
Posted: 10-Aug-2008, 09:10 AM
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Antwn;

On the subject of Government and Religion ( and that subject alone) the only thing that can and should be said is "Nary the two shall mix."



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Patch 
Posted: 10-Aug-2008, 12:52 PM
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QUOTE (Camac @ 10-Aug-2008, 10:10 AM)
Antwn;

On the subject of Government and Religion ( and that subject alone) the only thing that can and should be said is "Nary the two shall mix."



Camac.

The bush administration definitely proved that was a BAD idea. I used to volunteer at the Salvation Army. They moved to a bigger building and had a limited budget for their "church." When bush made them the official "charity" to provide aid (with govt. funding) to help the needy they suddenly got new expensive church furniture, and new high dollar office furniture. No matter how you figure it, our tax dollars upgraded their churches.

I hope this hasn't set a precedent!

Slàinte,   

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stoirmeil 
Posted: 10-Aug-2008, 03:04 PM
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QUOTE (Antwn @ 09-Aug-2008, 12:17 PM)
Perhaps its time finally to ask if we've outgrown the cosmic babysitter paradigm and are ready to utilize the only real authority we've ever used consistently for the invention of moral codes, our conscience.


Mmmm. Any ideas about where this item comes from, or has evolved from? Or why?

(Warning -- developmental psychologist, partial Freudian, with considerable attachment to evolutionary theory; not unbiased. But I do want to know how you think about this thing called "conscience," especially its origins.)
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Shelaur 
Posted: 11-Aug-2008, 01:04 PM
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QUOTE (Camac @ 06-Mar-2008, 09:56 AM)
The Canadian Constitution like all good Constitutions guarantees the separation of Church and State, which is as it should be. For almost 140 years the Parliament of Ontario has opened with the reciting of the Lords Prayer and now there is a proposal to abolish this practice. I for one think this has been long overdue. Our Parliament is made up of many different ethnic and religious groups and it is only right that no one group or religious belief be put ahead of any other. This has of course spawned the proverbial tempest with the Religious Right leading the charge.
The Evangelicals use the old stale argument that the "Founders" of the Nation did so under God. Well I beg to differ. The first Europeans here were Vikings and they were just looking for land to farm. They didn't last to long. The next to show up were the Basque fishermen catching Cod followed by the French looking for Gold. They found little gold but they did find something just as good if not better. BEAVER. Then along comes "The Company of Gentlemen Explorers" That of course is the English original name for the Hudsons Bay Company. Religion was the caboose that was dragged along by the settlers. Canada like the rest of the New World was founded by businessmen looking to turn a profit so lets put and end to this hypocrisy about being founded under God. .

PS: I doubt that the so called founders consulted with Manitou.


Camac.

Going back to the original post on the CANADIAN constitution, I totally agree with the lords prayer being abolished from Parliament. I am a true believer that what my personal preference is to which religion I practice, is none of anyone's business. No matter who founded my country. Although I thank them for doing so. They may have done so under their god. Still doesn't mean that I have to say a prayer because of that.


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Antwn 
Posted: 13-Aug-2008, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE (stoirmeil @ 10-Aug-2008, 03:04 PM)
(Warning -- developmental psychologist, partial Freudian, with considerable attachment to evolutionary theory; not unbiased. But I do want to know how you think about this thing called "conscience," especially its origins.)

Well then you're the expert not me. But since you've asked me I suspect its inherent, an evolutionary outgrowth of cooperation most likely. Altruism has been shown in many animal species. I suspect early humans learned that cooperation would bode well for survival more than single family living. An emotional element may have evolved from this or may have been there all along.

Whatever speculation one may have, the current presence of such an aspect is most important, and however, if ever it evolved, doesn't matter to my initial point.

How about quid pro quo - could you share with us some of the most current thinking on the evolution of conscience? Your own ideas would also be welcome.
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 18-Aug-2008, 12:42 PM
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QUOTE (Antwn @ 13-Aug-2008, 04:25 PM)
Altruism has been shown in many animal species. I suspect early humans learned that cooperation would bode well for survival more than single family living.
. . .

I just popped back in here after losing track of the thread. I'll see what's fresh in the research this year, month, week, and get back on it.
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