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Posted by: Tassiecelt 14-Sep-2004, 03:16 PM

I don't have any real answers, but I have over the last few years attempted to find out how this is defined.

Even the history of early celtic believers is somewhat sketchy since little survives in terms of writings.

Patrick of Ireland seems a really interesting man, according to the book "The Celtic Church in Britain" by Leslie Hardinge, Patrick was a very solid believer and was not trained in Rome as many were after him.

Later on after Patrick the celtic church seems to have been compromised theologically and the lines between true believers and superstition become a little blurred.

I've tried to find what modern celtic Christianity means today. On the net at least it seems very linked with Roman Catholicism, which is hardly surprising given the links there that had stood for centuries.

What do you think of my assessment?
What have you discovered?
Does it matter?

I welcome your thoughts.

Posted by: Aaediwen 14-Sep-2004, 04:14 PM

I can't say I'm well versed in details on this subject, but this is one area where my 'issues' with the early Catholic church relax a little bit. For the most part, I despise the old Catholic churches methods on how they forced their religon on people in so many cases. Patrick, however, from what I've heard was just trying to spread Christ's teachings, not trying to force his beliefs on everyone he came across. In this he used a great many Pagan refrences to help explain his views and the new Christian faith. A true Christian with a true heart from what I gather. Different from these people who are ready to condemn you to Hell if you don't believe how they do.

Posted by: Ceciliastar1 14-Sep-2004, 08:37 PM

You know, I may be catholic but a lot of what you say is true. It stinks really. Catholics can be so judging and all! There are a lot of theological thing swith the Catholic Church I believe in (ex. Mary, etc.) but there are a lot of traditions or attitudes I don't agree with. I think that it is wrong that peope think that my mind or my actions are evil because I like things like dragons, harry potter, etc. I agree and I too despise how Catholics force their religion onto people even peopl of their "kind". It is gross and makes anyone want to turn from their faith. When you mentione St. Patrick using pagan refernces to teach the faith, I like to think back to Jesus Christ who told simple stories that taught the faith. He did not teach us to hate if you don't follow, he lived with sinners and non-believers for crying out loud! I am Catholic/Christain because I was baptised into the faith and by my choice through the sacrament of Confirmation. It is by my choice that I am Catholic and if I tend to like things that you (as in other catholics) don't like well sc*** you! Argh! I'm just tired of "Holier than thou" Christains and Catholics. It is frustrating to me to know that so many do not believe but you know what after living on a Catholic College campus for 5 years I don't blame anyone for not believing! I hope I didn't offend anyone in my ranting. I'm just going through a hard religious time. Having doubts...again...

Posted by: Shadows 14-Sep-2004, 08:54 PM

I have said this elsewhere in these forums and will say it here again...

Most Christian holidays are the absorption of Pagan holidays. The symbols and trappings were used to bring the "heathens" into the flock. So you can almost bet that Celtic Christianity was not much different then what they were practicing, just with a different but similar message.

I come from a Catholic background, even have priests in my family, but I was turned off at an early age and have never looked back... there is so much more to life then they allow.

Posted by: Tassiecelt 14-Sep-2004, 10:10 PM

Shadows, I think you and would agree on a lot of things. What yu say about pagan festivals within christianity is true, and that is why our church as well as many others choose to follow only those celebrations endorsed by the Bible (God's Word).

Ceciliastar1, I tried to word my post referring to history and without necessarily criticising catholicism. It is true that in Patricks' time the scattered celtic churches were swallowed up by Rome, either willingly or otherwise.

I agree that Patrick and the early celtic church took the best of the celts, such as their love of nature, creativity and artistic skills, and added the knowledge of the Living God by teaching the people to worship the Creator and not the created.

My interest is in how those celtic values and attribute can be included in our worship today.

(replacing the church organ with Uilleann Pipes would be a great start!!)

Posted by: MacAibhistin 14-Sep-2004, 10:45 PM

Great discussion, Tassie! Unfortunately, there seems to be at least two problems with coming to grips with celtic Christianity. 1. The Gaels did not keep written records, and were known throughout Europe as "the secret people." This makes it tough to learn about our ancestors! 2. When the monks began to keep records of the practises of the Celts, they often either demonised their Celtic pagan ways, or they glorified their efforts to conform to the Roman standards (eg. Bede's history of Britain).

There were some early big debates amongst the early missionaries in Britain and Ireland about theological issues which lead to an almost complete Romanisation of the Christian practises here within a century of Patrick and Columba (Calum Cille). From what I have read, by the 7 th century Celtic Christianity was probably very similar to that practised on the continent, however, it is safe to say that many pagan traditions survived outright, or were Christianised (eg. Hallowe'en). I remember reading a fair bit about this when I was in university, however, I seem to forget more than I retained.

Rory

Posted by: Tassiecelt 15-Sep-2004, 03:03 AM

Rory, what you say fits pretty well with what i have read.

There is "The "Confessio" of Saint Patrick" but it reveals little more than the story of his life. Bede, as you say is good, if a little biased maybe.

I'd love to talk with Moya Brennan (Enya's older sister), she is apparently quite an expert on the subject.

Posted by: CelticRose 15-Sep-2004, 01:20 PM

Very interesting topic, Tassie! I am really enjoying this and what all others have to share. I am a protestant Christian and I have the same problems as the Catholics. I like Celtic music, which some would say is New Age, I wear a Celtic cross around my neck, which some would say is pagan and I study handwriting analysis which some would say is of the occult! So where do you draw the line? Well I believe it is the fact that God knows your heart and just because you like Harry Potter or other seemingly pagan things so called by the church, does not make you less of a Christian. I would like to know more about Celtic Christianity. St Patrick used pagan beliefs that the Celts of that day could relate to and he compared it with Christianity. Such as the origination of the Celtic cross. The ancient Celts worshiped the sun and St Patrick took the sun worship and put a cross in the middle of it to symbolize new faith in Christ who made the sun and not in the sun itself....... hence, the Celtic cross. In other words he taught worship towards the creator and not the creation. However, I feel that we are to honor and protect the creation that Christ has so generously given us. I hope this makes sense.

Posted by: elly 16-Sep-2004, 01:30 AM

It`s a very interesting subject you have brought up Tassie

Columba and Ninian both played a big part in bringing christianity to Scotland, in today`s world, I just don`t know, a lot not just in Scotland are going back to what is called `paganism` not sure I totally agree with that name, I suppose at the end of the day, some of us have to believe it something and others well, don`t.

Like a lot of scots I like to think that the Celts did believe and all the old monuments and stones etc do mean something but at the end of the day we don`t know, as they didn`t leave us any clues

why they did build these monuments, and that is something I suppose we`ll never know, in our lifetime anyway.

I`ve never heard before that the Celts worshipped the Sun, but suppose it could be right enough, when you think about it, could be very true, must have seemed a not very often visitor in Scotland

Posted by: Ceciliastar1 16-Sep-2004, 10:56 AM

QUOTE (Tassiecelt @ 14-Sep-2004, 11:10 PM)

Ceciliastar1, I tried to word my post referring to history and without necessarily criticising catholicism. It is true that in Patricks' time the scattered celtic churches were swallowed up by Rome, either willingly or otherwise.

(replacing the church organ with Uilleann Pipes would be a great start!!)

Haha! I'm sorry I know you weren't criticising Catholicism...I was..haha!

I love your idea of the uilean pipes!!!!!

Posted by: CelticRose 16-Sep-2004, 03:51 PM

Elly, I had heard this on an Irish program that the Celts had worshipped the sun and that is why St Patrick used that as a reference as to worship the creator and not the creation in his attempt to bring Christianity to the people.

Posted by: Shadows 16-Sep-2004, 04:43 PM

I am I the only one to see the Irony in the worship of the son and the worship of the sun... ? It is all word play.

And by the way Jesus called himself the son of man and god his ( our ) father.

Posted by: Tassiecelt 16-Sep-2004, 05:54 PM

QUOTE (Shadows @ 17-Sep-2004, 08:43 AM)

I am I the only one to see the Irony in the worship of the son and the worship of the sun... ? It is all word play.

And by the way Jesus called himself the son of man and god his ( our ) father.

I see it, but I don't believe it's ironic in any way, they are just two unrelated words with totally different concepts.

One or two exceptions tho' (there always is) of the 152 occurences of the word "sun" only a couple relate to Jesus Christ.

QUOTE

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

and

QUOTE

Psa 84:11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

The sun gives light, warmth, beauty, to the creation; so God is the source of light, joy, happiness, to the soul.

But this is no way endorses the heathen practice of worshipping the sun.

Posted by: Shadows 16-Sep-2004, 06:08 PM

But you do not address the fact that your Jesus called himself " the son of man" . Your quote of Mal:4.2 is a proof of my original question.
Is it Sun or Son? Jesus used the old testiment to his advantage, he quoted many OT passages to his point that he was what was predicted.
There is proof that during his "missing time" that he studied under the teachers of the East and much of what he taught at that time was based on what is now called "Eastern Religion"; a far cry from the norm of the day.

Do not get me wrong, I am not disrespecting your beliefs, but trying to open your eyes to a greater understanding of the whole concept of the spiritual world.

Posted by: Shadows 16-Sep-2004, 06:31 PM

I would like to add to my above reply:

Evolution is not only physical but also mental and spiritual!
The stature of the average human has changed just in our life time, the mental challenges and answers have also jumped by bounds, and the spiritual additions to all our beliefs has changed dramacticly from that of the times before. Each generation adds and subtracts to that which is important to their time, that is why we can not hold anything as , I use the words, "Gospel Truth". It has been revised and manipulated to fit the times and beliefs of the common " church/s" . I have studied religions for almost all my life and my mother is a "minister of god's word". I hear comming from her lips that the books of the bible are only stories for the people of those times...this is what is being taught in your seminaries...!

Posted by: Tassiecelt 16-Sep-2004, 06:41 PM

QUOTE (Shadows @ 17-Sep-2004, 10:08 AM)

Sorry, OK briefly..

Yes Jesus is the Son of Man and the Son of God, I can supply texts later if you wish.
So that is Son, as we understand Father and son, not Sun.

As to the "missing time" there is no proof in the Bible, which is the only reliable record for me.
That notion was put forward in the book "the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ", but I believe it to be pure fantasy.
To suggest that a young Jesus would go to learn the ways of the heathen when the scripture forbids that is anathema. Believe it if you wish, but no Bible scholar does.

I spent years as a Buddhist and teacher of yoga here, in India and elsewhere, this much I know - there is no way the teachings of Christ can merge with those of Buddhism, Hinduism or any other eastern belief, they are diametrically opposed.

Christianity teaches One God and one path to God, through believing the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and one life only.

1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Eastern belief teaches many gods and many roads to god, as well as many lives thru the cycle of birth and rebirth.

No direspect taken my friend, I enjoy your posts, but spiritual enlightenment to truth comes only as a gift from the One Creator God through the Holy Spirit and is freely given to those who ask.
It is also only revealed within the pages of the Bible. I read other works, but only one is given truly of God and can be proven to be so.

To return to the darkness of occult belief would be to throw that gift back in the Face of the One Who died to set me free from such darkness.

Posted by: Tassiecelt 16-Sep-2004, 06:55 PM

QUOTE

I have studied religions for almost all my life and my mother is a "minister of god's word". I hear comming from her lips that the books of the bible are only stories for the people of those times...this is what is being taught in your seminaries...!

I would differ with your mother here, the Bible is for all times and all Ages

Jesus said: Mat 5:18 " For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." It is accepted that He refers to the law as written in the Bible.

I do know that very liberal theology abound in cemetaries, sorry, I mean seminaries

but they diminish the power of the Word of God by such beliefs.

God wants us to know the full power and beauty of His love, His Plan and Purpose.

This is available to all who choose to believe fully in what the Son came to do and become His disciples.

Posted by: Shadows 16-Sep-2004, 07:10 PM

I do not dispute the One Creator, what I do dispute is the fact that the current bible is the word of that creator.

Jesus to me was a great teacher needed at the time he lived, no I am not Jewish, but there are many teachers since that need to be listened to.

Do you not find ironic the trinity... the number 3 was sacred to all way before christianity was even a concept.

The message of all religion is :

tolernece
love
forgiveness

It does not matter how many gods you need to accomplish that... it is the basic truth of the message.

And I do believe in the many roads needed to attain true spirituality...

If it were not for church and government we all would be "vibrating" on the same level... the control of our minds and spirits would be nullified and we all would be equal and living the "truth" as the creator, gods or godesses want us to be... the deitification of being is man made... we can all attain the level of existance that is required to be truely spiritual on this earth if we understand and use the knowledge that has been afforded us... Live, Learn, Teach, and Love; for your actions are accountable.

Posted by: MacAibhistin 16-Sep-2004, 07:19 PM

Shadows, I really like your posts. I do need to question the idea that the message of all religion is :

tolerance
love
forgiveness

For many religions, especially the less dogmatic ones, such as Native North American religions, there was not always a tenant of forgiveness. It should also be noted, with regards to our Judeao-Christian heritage, forgiveness was not always a practise - especially in OT times. One last example, the fundamentalist Islamists who took/take part in their holy Jihads are definitely not big on tolerance or forgiveness. I could use more examples, but I think we all get the point.

Rory

Posted by: Shadows 16-Sep-2004, 07:38 PM

First let me appologize for my posts being here in the Kirk and Chapel thread... I had thought I was replying in the Religion, Science,etc. ... thread!

I practice Native American beliefs and forgiveness is a basis ... if something or some one was taken in need you applogise for your action and explain your need to do so...if you take something you need, you replace it 3 fold... it goes on...There are many forms of tolerence.

As for the Islamic fundamentalist.. they are not much unlike our Christian fundamentalist.... they believe blindly, without thinking, and often act out violently... and don't tell me christian fundalmentalist don't perform violence... the KKK is a Christian fundalmtalist group even though most of you dont claim them. How about the anti- abortionests, need I go on? As I have said all the controversy is man made... put it aside and examine your reason for being... you will find we all are on the same path!

I will not respond here on this topic any more, as it was my mistake to present my opinions here in the first place... I had promised the moderator that I would not.

Posted by: Tassiecelt 16-Sep-2004, 08:20 PM

I for one have no objection to the posts here, but it's not my forum.

1. My belief in Christ began and remains independant of church and state. It is a personal committment to God. ( I do believe in church attendance)

2. Christians who believe the Bible in a literal way are in no way like Islamic fundamentalists, as much as the heathen architects of language might like to associate the two.

3. Anyone can call themselves Christian, but if they practise hatred and violence, such as KKK, they are disqualified and their deeds will be judged by God at the last Day.

4. Adherents to Islam are being consistent with the teaching of the Koran, which advocates the destruction of those who will not convert.

That is not the Way of Christ, He gives us free choice, but while warning us of the ultimate consequence of unbelief, sin and disobedience, but we remain free will creatures. God made us that way.

Posted by: Shadows 16-Sep-2004, 08:35 PM

QUOTE (Tassiecelt @ 16-Sep-2004, 09:20 PM)

4. Adherents to Islam are being consistent with the teaching of the Koran, which advocates the destruction of those who will not convert.

That is not the Way of Christ, He gives us free choice, but while warning us of the ultimate consequence of unbelief, sin and disobedience, but we remain free will creatures. God made us that way.

Ok so I streched the truth some Elspeth, I have to reply to this, then I am gone!

The Koran as well as the Christian bible states that all will perish if the beliefs of the said document are not adhered to! They are refering to a spiritual banishment, not a physical death! It is the fundalmentalist of both religions that take things to the max, not the every day believer. Ain't it grand what a fanactic can do!?!?

I suggest you re-read the Koran, it is not unlike the books you profess to believe.

Posted by: Tassiecelt 17-Sep-2004, 04:55 AM

So back to the topic, I've been searching yet again for more info about the Celtic Church, where and how it exists today.

I must say that a lot of what I've found is somewhat dissappointing, here are a few sites I did think had some merit.

See what you think..

Firth's Celtic Scotland
http://www.cushnieent.force9.co.uk/index.html

The Foolish Cross (has some useful info)
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6389/

If anyone knows of other sites perhaps you could add them here.

Posted by: CelticRose 17-Sep-2004, 02:23 PM

Tassie! You found some really good sites I think. I tried to look up some myself to add to here, but just could not find any that were that good as what you found. Many thanks!

There has to be some good books out there on Celtic Christianity as well.........probably on Amazon.com. I will have to check that out next!

Posted by: Tassiecelt 17-Sep-2004, 10:19 PM

Glad you like them Rose, I will keep searching for more.

I also have some links on my home page, but a couple of sites have closed.
www.camriversigns.com.au/home

Posted by: CelticRose 18-Sep-2004, 03:18 AM

Here's a beginner's book I found on Amazon.com

An Introduction to Celtic Christianity
by James P. MacKey

Posted by: Elspeth 18-Sep-2004, 10:36 AM

Man, everytime I miss a few days a topic gets hoppin on here.

Glad to see the discussion flowing so politely.

Enjoy all.