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> God's Existence, Gods evidence seems lacking
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Macy
Posted: 05-Dec-2003, 04:04 AM
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GOD?S LACK OF EVIDENCE

If no one can give any evidence that can pass all of these tests then I stand by my conviction that there is no scientific proof of God and therefore s/he is not recognized by the scientific method and does not exist

The evidence or proof must:

-come from acceptable scientific evidence and facts which can be proved

-not come from individuals? convictions or beliefs as they DO NOT constitute scientific evidence, nor do individual?s experiences. People are notoriously unreliable witnesses, liars and exaggerators. Often times they believe they have seen or experienced something which has not happened

-have a proven connection to God using the scientific method


That?s it! If you do think you have something that passes the three tests please send me the evidence with your argument at [email protected] with subject ?God Debate?
If you have any questions or disagreements with any of my arguments feel free to email
-Macy




The definitions and arguments for the preceding statements follow-

God - A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe.

scientific method The principles and empirical processes of discovery and demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for scientific investigation, generally involving the observation of phenomena, the formulation of a hypothesis concerning the phenomena, experimentation to demonstrate the truth or falseness of the hypothesis, and a conclusion that validates or modifies the hypothesis.


scientific evidence - A thing or things which have passed the scientific method used to form a conclusion or judgment




Here are arguments in support of my case

(1) People are notorious liars and exaggerators

(2) If you have an unexplained unknown, it is not acceptable to propose another unknown in answer / Historic Religions

(3) Reasons for why so many believe in God

(4) Intelligent Design


***
(1) People are notorious liars and exaggerators

People are known to be incredibly unreliable witnesses. During the middle ages there were countless sightings of the Virgin Mary. Jeanne d?Arc in France, St. Bridget in Sweden and Girolamo Savonarola in Italy all claimed to have seen Mary, but less known were the hundreds of sightings by farmers, women and children. People claimed to have seen Mary and that she told them to build a church or invade another county. The reasons for creating and believing these stories are abundant, ranging from conforming other?s belief to your faith, bringing business to your city, all the way to simply gaining social status.
All people have a need for a power of one sort or another. People are inherently needy and have wants, whether it is money, pride or raising one?s emotional esteem. A good deed will often make you feel better, while stories which elevate past the truth will put others in awe, and although you did not perform this feat, the attention will be drawn to you and your story. It is only sharing part of the glory of the original deed, but the greater the endeavor that you tell, the more that people will react and the more attention you will draw to yourself.


***
(2) If you have an unexplained unknown, it is not acceptable to propose another unknown in answer / Historic Religions

In scientific research, one is always searching for the simplest explanation that explains all the facts. If you have an unknown for which you do not have an explanation, it is not acceptable to propose another, imagined unknown, for which you have no scientific evidence. Having said that, I would like to bring the value of religions in my presentation into focus. They are not proof of God?s existence and likewise are not a denial to his existence, but they are merely used in my argument to help explain man?s thoughts and his conscience with respect to his relation with his belief in a greater being. God has never been proven to exist with respectable scientific evidence, although this may be, it is not possible to prove that an undetectable, invisible, unperceivable being does not exist. I can prove religions false, inaccurate and hypocritical and still not prove that a god does not exist. Instead of physically proving that God?s existence is impossible, since no reliable scientific proof holds this idea within the bounds of reason, I will first explore man?s reasoning and belief in a god or gods.

Historic Religions -
A contradicting issue to our recent religious history is Greek Mythology. First, what is the meaning of myth? A fictitious story, person, or thing. Does anyone believe in Zeus anymore? He was the Greek king of the Gods and was proposed responsible for lightning, he threw lightning bolts. We have climbed to the top of Mt. Olympus and found nothing and we now have the scientific evidence that explains lightning. The myriad experiments show that lightning is caused by the release of static electric charges between differently charged masses, effectuated by the ionization of the air between the masses. This is another incident where baseless religious ideas were used for reasoning with the unknown, but for the same reasons which God exists, Zeus exists as well. The common belief of where God resided, up until recently, was the sky, also known as the heavens. That is not the case for all religions I know, but for those that follow the bible and know the text will realize what I am talking of. Now that we can fly, and now that we have seen nothing in the ?heavens? the idea of God has changed, as it did many times before. Why do you think the bible needs newer versions?
God is now described as what we simple humans cannot perceive in any way. This is what I have heard from priests, ministers and most theists. You will find few people who today believe that heaven and God are visible and reside in the clouds. The justification behind this decision was to prevent challenges to the existence of God.
The original reasons for the creation of religions boils down to the fear of death and explanations for the unknown. The theory of evolution didn?t come about until the early 1800s and no other scientific explanation could be found, therefore the ideas of Adam and Eve or the creation of all life from water were readily accepted. The Aztecs believed that the sun and moon were gods and that gods controlled the weather and their crops, merely to explain what they could not conceive at the time. We are in an era now, where the unknown is rapidly dissipating, but the basis of religion is on the explanation of the unknown. There is one unknown which we will not be able to confront, death is a fear which is ever present in many people and drives them to believe even the most absurd and illogical ideas. The idea of Hades, Thanatos, Pluto, the gates of hell and Valhalla are now considered outdated by the masses, but they all served the same purpose, just as Heaven and Hell do now.

***
(3) Reasons for why so many believe in God

They were taught their parents? religion at an early age, which is and has been quite common. In schoolhouses across the country during the early 1900s, books were scarce and the bible was often used to teach children to read. This is happening when a child?s critical thinking capabilities are not even near fully developed. From three to eight years old a child?s frontal lobe, which controls the child?s thought process and ability to understand, goes through multiple growth spurts. By age eight the child has the means to comprehend much more complex ideas and issues, but the child?s ability to effectively judge and critique have only just begun to mature. By the time they have grown to an age where they can interpret and fully understand the lessons and stories taught to them, they have the basics of the religion engrained into their minds.
The second reason is fear. People have a natural and necessary fear of death. If we did not fear death and give it respect, we would die off like lemmings by carelessness or simply to entertain ourselves. The thought of death without an afterlife is frightening for most people, the end, nothingness, not even a black void. The closest we can come to death is a deep sleep which we remember none of. We can not simulate the experience of death for you cannot think or use your mind when dead and there-for cannot remember it. The pleasurable scenario, which many have taken to, is the idea of Heaven or another form of life after death for other religions. Whatever you like or fancy is there, it is often described as a perfect land with no flaws, but if you do not obey this religion, choose another religion or sin, you will be sent to the opposite of Heaven. Although many other religions do not have a Hell, they most definitely have a consequence for the three transgressions which I mentioned earlier. Hell is quite often described as a suffering experience. Torment and anguish fall upon those who reside there. It is everything that is bad, and apparently has lots of fire. When ignorant masses or citizens easily deluded, are presented with a decree, which if they do not follow, when they die they will undergo eternal damnation, they will readily accept without thought. For those which contemplate and thoughtfully deliberate over such decisions, whether or not the decree is true, they are less likely manipulated, but the fear of emptiness after death is so strong that often times people are willing to follow religions in order to feel security. They will often follow so strongly, for want of another life, that if they had doubts in the beginning they will want to believe so badly that they will deceive themselves and even those who listen to them.

***
(4) Intelligent Design

I have not looked into the thousands of religions and cults, but of the major religions, the flaw which predetermines the accuracy of every book of faith which I have read, is their theory of the creation of the earth and of man. The theory behind this argument is that it is impossible for a being as complex as a human to exist without a greater being?s help. C. S. Lewis was the founder of one of the main arguments used in Intelligent Design. His argument was that if you came across a wall in the middle of a prairie, would you assume it happened by chance or would you assume someone built it? The basic flaw behind this comparison is that a wall is not alive and cannot reproduce or mutate. Humans mutate constantly though, stillborns and disabled babies are almost always mutated in some way or another. The human body will often naturally abort a fetus which has been mutated in a way which would hinder its? chance of survival. Survival of the fittest is not only exercised in today?s society, but has been used to weed out the weaker species. This is evolution.
A surprising fact, is that the human DNA, which is the design for the outcome of that human, is on average .8% different from the standard human DNA. This is due to mutations in the DNA structure. Chimps are of a lower intellect and therefore do not prosper as well as humans, but their DNA structure is 98.4% the same as humans, a difference from of 1.6%. Arguments may vary this amount up to 5%, but these sources fail to compensate for the discarded information used to determine this percent. Chimps are actually closer related to humans than they are to gorillas, orangutans and gibbons. They are even closer related than two species of gibbon, the common gibbon and the siamang gibbon.
Therefore we can see that evolution does exist and through this logic we can see that a lesser creature can mutate over generations to become a smarter and more advanced creature too. Then we can also apply this to Homo sapiens, which have had between 200,000 and 300,000 years to evolve. Humans evolved at a gradual nature at this time, and it is a complicated process identifying exactly when the evolutionary transition from Homo ergaster to Homo sapiens occurred.
Since we have evolution with no scientific evidence of any help from a greater being and furthermore no basis for the possibility of a greater being?s help we can conclude that there is no God helping out in this field.
               
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oldraven 
Posted: 05-Dec-2003, 09:49 AM
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And then?

Not to be rude, but this has been beaten to death. Everyone who doesn't believe in God tries to disprove his existence with Science.

Tell me, what's the point of faith if we have tangible proof? I look around me and see all the proof I need.

Another point of view, science still can't disprove the existence of a God. As well, any theories of the beginning of the universe (ie Big Bang) can't be proven by science. They can get to a certain point and then the math just breaks down.

I'm not saying science can't work in unison with faith, but there's only so much that we can prove with formulas. The rest is up to chance, fate, and planning.


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Caw

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Cailiosa 
Posted: 05-Dec-2003, 10:32 AM
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I certainly do admire all the effort you must have put into that post, Macy . . . very well thought out argument. While I myself can't give you any scientific evidence, I do have I book that I would highly recommend you read. It's called The Case For Christ, by Lee Strobel. Here's how the back cover describes it:

A Seasoned Journalist Chases Down the Biggest Story in History

Is there credible evidence that Jesus of Nazareth really is the Son of God?

Retracing his own spiritual journey from atheism to faith, Lee Strobel, former legal editor of the Chicago Tribune, cross-examines a dozen experts with doctorates from schools like Cambridge, Princeton, and Brandeis who are recognized authorities in their own fields.

Strobel challenges them with questions like "How reliable is the New Testament?" "Does evidence exist for Jesus outside the Bible?" "Is there any reason to believe the resurrection was an actual event?"

Strobel's tough, point-blank questions make this remarkable book read like a captivating, fast-paced novel. But it's not fiction. It's a riveting quest for the truth about history's most compelling figure.


Though this book provides compelling archeaological and historical, etc. proof for the existence of Christ (which in turn provides proof for the existence of God), I do believe what oldraven says to be true. The whole point of faith is to believe in something that we can't see, don't always have tangible evidence for. According to Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." (If you have the time, I'd recommend you read the rest of Hebrews 11. It's the "Hall of Fame" for those biblical figures that acted out of faith).

Here's a question for you. Can you see the wind? But you know it exists, right, because you can see it's effects on other objects. The same is true about God. I can't see Him in a physical form, but I have evidenced Him working in other people's lives and in my own as well.

I hope this book helps you out and I pray that God will help you find what you are looking for.
Jennie


--------------------
"For man He suffered and He died:
If man will take His word as guide
And leave all infamy,
Then we shall come to happiness
And blisses more than we can guess in Jesu's company."


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Celeste of the Stars1 
Posted: 05-Dec-2003, 10:57 AM
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Not to offend anyone, but hasn't this poor horse been beaten enough?


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Have a day!

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'An it harm non do what you will'
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Elspeth 
Posted: 05-Dec-2003, 11:31 AM
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No question is beaten to death if it is important to someone.

Sorry to get all psychoanalytical, but the fact you posed the question in the first place seems to say you want God to be real. Otherwise you?d just dismiss Him as a fairytale and move on with your life.

I?m sorry, God cannot be proven.

A relationship with Him is a choice you must make. He doesn?t have to prove His existence to us. However, I can see it all about me.
You have to make that choice, or not, for yourself.


--------------------
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Raven 
Posted: 05-Dec-2003, 12:52 PM
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Whew...that's quite a post Macy

I guess a couple of questions.

1.) are you in search of evidence for a creator or a personal God?

2.) What theory of science do you subscribe to for the existence of the universe?

3.) Do you believe that the second law of thermodynamics applys only to non living entities?

4.) do you believe in Macro Evolution (molecules to man or life from no life evolution) in addition to Micro Evolution (survival of the fittest, dominant or adaptave life etc.) and do you believe in inter species evolution (fish to reptiles, monkeys to man etc.)?

I will be happy to give what empirical evidence that I can offer as I to believe in the scientific method when it is applied in the spirit in which it is intended (establishing a theory and setting out to prove or disprove it as opposed to setting out to prove what I already believe to be true..in other words a real search for truth)

After all inquiring minds want to know tongue.gif and the horse is not truly dead if it continues to whinney biggrin.gif

Peace

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Shadows 
Posted: 05-Dec-2003, 01:03 PM
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A quote from Al Einstien:

"If god had not created man, man would have created god."

It is the old chicken or egg question on a higher level!


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tsargent62 
Posted: 05-Dec-2003, 01:48 PM
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You may, Macy, dismiss what I'm about to say because "people are notorious liars", but I think anyone with a deep, abiding faith has had what may be termed as religious experiences.

I was like you once. I considered myself agnostic, neither accepting or rejecting the existence of God. Then, one day, I was on the roof of the iron foundry where I used to work, doing some maintenance. I looked around, saw that I was alone, and thought, "What have I got to loose?" I got down on my knees and said, "God, are you there?" Suddenly, I was surrounded by love and pure joy. I felt as if I was a child being hugged tight by his father. It was so peaceful, yet so shocking for its intensity. So many times I wish I could live that day again. If I ever start to have doubts, I think back to that day and those doubts evaporate.

Like Cailiosa, I've seen God at work in my life and the lives of others. Sure, you may dismiss this as wanting to assign credit to God, and to some measure, you may be right. However, I consider myself an intelligent man, able to separate fact from fantasy. I know when God is influencing me personally. I know when God has played a hand in events because I can feel it. You're probably thinking, "Sure you can. You can because you want to." No, my friend, because I can feel it physically, by a warm feeling deep in my chest. I've had these kinds of feelings ever since my day on the roof. I have spoken to other believers that have the same feelings.

Just one more thing and I'll end my preaching. I consider myself a junior scientist. I believe there is a place for religion and science to co-exist. Take for example the Big Bang. "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." It had to come from somewhere. Why not from God? According to astrophysicists, the matter was all of a sudden there, expanding into the universe. We really don't know what it took for God to create everything, so who's to say that it didn't happen the way scientists think?

Just my 18 cents.



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myriad 
Posted: 05-Dec-2003, 02:05 PM
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Science is great! I love it. Check out Does God Exist by John Clayton.
Wonderful reading. Great Video Series. John Clayton: Scientist and Athiest sets out to prove God does not exist and that it is all a hoax-- scientifically. Can I answer your question Macy? no. Can I give an overview of this book? no. If you are confident that God does not exist... check out the book/video.. what could it hurt. I check out all the other beliefs, through video, book, and speaking with others in person and with all y'all. Have I been effected? yes. Many things I believed I have questioned and have learned a great deal about myself and others. The most important thing I have learned is the beauty of simple truth and the importance of someone finding the answer to their questions for themself. wink.gif If I sent you an e-mail with the answer to those questions you would say great yeah right coming from a Christian.. bah. However if you check out what a scientist, like yourself has to say, and really question it... you will find the answer for yourself.

Mary
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Celeste of the Stars1 
Posted: 05-Dec-2003, 03:54 PM
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QUOTE (Raven @ Dec 5 2003, 12:52 PM)
After all inquiring minds want to know tongue.gif and the horse is not truly dead if it continues to whinney biggrin.gif

Peace

Mikel

How very true. My apologies! smile.gif
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Raven 
Posted: 05-Dec-2003, 03:59 PM
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biggrin.gif non needed from you dear lady as you posted no offense intended. And after all you were only trying to save the poor horse further pain wink.gif

I hope to see you in chat again sometime.

Slainte

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hilander1299 
Posted: 05-Dec-2003, 05:13 PM
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Why is it that those who believe in GOD are always trying to justify that belief? Can't we all just believe in our own beliefs without having others beiefs shoved down our throats?????


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oldraven 
Posted: 05-Dec-2003, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE (hilander1299 @ Dec 5 2003, 03:13 PM)
Why is it that those who believe in GOD are always trying to justify that belief? Can't we all just believe in our own beliefs without having others beiefs shoved down our throats?????

What are you talking about? I don't see anyone shoving anything down anyone's throats. And when someone is trying to disprove my faith, I have a tendancy to defend it. Pick your battles man.
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Keltic 
Posted: 05-Dec-2003, 06:13 PM
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QUOTE (hilander1299 @ Dec 5 2003, 06:13 PM)
Why is it that those who believe in GOD are always trying to justify that belief? Can't we all just believe in our own beliefs without having others beiefs shoved down our throats?????

Check out the first post. Seems someone is trying to justify his belief and is trying to shove it down others throats.


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Raven 
Posted: 05-Dec-2003, 06:27 PM
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QUOTE (hilander1299 @ Dec 5 2003, 05:13 PM)
Why is it that those who believe in GOD are always trying to justify that belief? Can't we all just believe in our own beliefs without having others beiefs shoved down our throats?????

Hey High

Read the question at the top of the post. It seems that questions are being asked

Mikel smile.gif
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