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Posted by: CelticRose 25-Jan-2004, 12:31 AM
I have wondered this for a time. I have a great-grandmother who is a Carleton (English surname) and yet she was born and raised in Ireland. Does that make her Irish or English in ancestry? I also have great-grandmothers with the surnames of Suit, Walker, Blackstock, Ellerson/Allison which are Scottish in origin. Does that really make them Scottish in ancestry? may be a stupid question but I really want to know. unsure.gif

Posted by: Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas 25-Jan-2004, 08:06 AM
Judging from the research I've done on my own lineage, and from what study of Celtic history I've done, surnames alone don't necessarily mean much. Some families and clans, Clan Donald being a good example, had holdings on both sides of the Irish Sea. I have a Ware line that is clearly English, but one of the Wares was the mayor of Dublin, and the family had Irish holdings. Whether I consider the line to be English or Irish probably depends more on what I want it to be than anything else.
Whether anyone else would agree with me is another question entirely. angel_not.gif

Posted by: Catriona 25-Jan-2004, 08:32 AM
There are lots of people living in Scotland today who have English, Welsh and Irish names. And some of them have lived in Scotland for a couple of hundred years.

If they were born, educated and brought up in Scotland, then I would argue that they are Scottish,but maybe of 'English' or'Welsh' or wherever ancestry.

The same with Americans. Born in the USA (of parents who emigrated and have no intention of returning to their native country!) - any children should surely consider themselves Americans of '......' (fill in the blank) ancestry?

We have a lot of immigrants from India, Pakistan and the 'old' British Commonwealth. They have married, and started families in Scotland, Wales, England. They have no intention of returning to say, Zimbabwe... their children are British citizens (as are the parents, in many cases, although they may be dual nationality). I consider this makes them 'Scots', or 'Irish' or 'Welsh'.... but with an interesting twist! biggrin.gif

It is really amazing that there is so much soul searching that goes on in the US about 'roots' etc. It just doesn't seem to be of such importance to us here. And that seems to be true of many of the immigrants, not just the mainline Scots of Scots ancestry.

I had friends at school who bore names like Leneghan, O'Donnel, O'Hanlon. BUT there families had immigrated from Ireland to Scotland way back in the 1800s. They don't consider themselves anything but Scottish.

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 25-Jan-2004, 01:40 PM
well, my surname definitly doesn't ... biggrin.gif I have a peasants surname nothing very grand... and my surname says nothing about my family's history.

Having a surname that can be traced is a very nice thing but I don't think it will reveal your heritage because the history written in all of the tartan books does not reveal how your family might have gotten the surname...

Posted by: CelticRose 26-Jan-2004, 01:45 AM
Thanks Mike, Cat and Aon! That helps a lot. smile.gif

Cat, it is true that it is important to the people here in the US to do a lot of "soul searching,"...... finding their ancestors and who and where they came from because all of our ancestors came from outside of America and we want to know our history and lineage. It is important to us. Must seem funny to the British since we American's fought so hard in the 18th century to break free from British rule and yet you have this generation trying so hard to find out who our British ancestors were! biggrin.gif Well I am also half Sicilian and I am even researching my ancestors from there as well! What a shock that has been! I may be of Greek ancestry instead! laugh.gif I, myself, love history and the further back I can get in learning about my family, the more interesting it becomes.

However, all these surnames of our past ancestors I have to wonder cause I am too, like you Mailagnus, finding ancestors in Ireland with English surnames. One family were English but moved to Ireland, especially Dublin and settled there! Wow! So I have really learned a lot and it can get very confusing and you wonder what to call your ancestry. It is very common here to ask each other what our nationality/ancestry is. I know I have been asked that all my life! smile.gif


Posted by: RavenWing 29-Jan-2004, 02:27 PM
QUOTE (Catriona @ Jan 25 2004, 02:32 PM)
It is really amazing that there is so much soul searching that goes on in the US about 'roots' etc. It just doesn't seem to be of such importance to us here. And that seems to be true of many of the immigrants, not just the mainline Scots of Scots ancestry.


Hi Cat! I have been thinking about this. I think what has happened here is we Americans don't have a culture. We are such a melting pot that any culture our ancestors maintained has been erased. It is a sad thing, really.


Posted by: CelticRose 29-Jan-2004, 02:36 PM
RavenWing! I could not have put this better! Thank you! thumbs_up.gif

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 29-Jan-2004, 02:57 PM
well, see? I disagree with the whole America doesn't have a culture thing. They do.

Just been talking to MacErca and OldRaven about that on irc yesterday (I think). OldRaven started about History that still exists over here but it doesn't. Maybe a few things like buildings and documents but that's basically it. Else we wouldn't need scientists to figure out what ppl did in other times.

It is people that make history and a culture and America is just as rich in it as anywhere else is. You just have to look for it.

Posted by: CelticRose 29-Jan-2004, 10:46 PM
Well Aon, I would disagree! tongue.gif smile.gif Yeah, America is rich in history of it's own, good and bad. However, like RavenWing said, we are a melting pot where we have many cultures here and depending on where you live, it dictates the lifestyle. I live in a small town comprised of mostly Native Americans and Mexican Americans. I would say that there is a very strong influence in my town of these cultures and in most of Arizona. If I don't speak Spanish or the Tohono O'dham or Navaho language then I am crud out of luck. We decorate our homes in the southwestern culture even. We eat mostly Mexican food! Depending on what state you live in comprises of their particular history and culture. I have lived in Georgia, North Carolina, California and Arizona and each place is different in its own way and dictated by the majority of the ancestry of the people who live there. My father's side of the family, for example, came from Sicily and whenever we got together we ate, talked and breathed Sicilian!

We are a conglomeration of cultures here. Not just one! Just my humble opinion. smile.gif


Posted by: RavenWing 30-Jan-2004, 09:42 AM
QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Jan 29 2004, 08:57 PM)
It is people that make history and a culture and America is just as rich in it as anywhere else is. You just have to look for it.

Yes there is plenty of history, but look at it this way, there are no defining elements that identify us as American with the exception of our government.


Argh I don't have enough time to explain my thoughts further. I will give it a try.

Posted by: RavenWing 30-Jan-2004, 09:51 AM
QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Jan 29 2004, 08:57 PM)
It is people that make history and a culture and America is just as rich in it as anywhere else is. You just have to look for it.

I think that is exactly what people are doing when they try to trace their ancestry and "go back to their roots". Unfortunately we have to go back and see what our ancestors did to find anything, unless we are Native American. That is the only true American culture. If you look for culture around here, you will see what people have managed to hold on to. Some people do not feel right adopting one that has noting to do with their ancestry.

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 30-Jan-2004, 11:57 AM
well, everytime I start talking to an american about history the "ancient monuments" thing comes up... I actually think the native american monuments that still stand and natural ones over the pond are the very least as much interesting as anything you find here...

Apart from that, your ancestors left the country of their birth and it usually sort of becomes a wonderland in stories.. you will never be able to find that. ´

But even things from the 18s on are history, and alot of industrial sites here in europe "killed off" ancient sites over here. Gartzweiler in Germany destroyes archeological sites every day, especially sites from the roman and Iron age.

You don't have to look for culture somewhere else in my eyes. Apart from that it's a fact that with wars and fires and natural disasters even over here many records are destroyed. Especially in Germany, often records were stored in churches and in the bombings of the cities alot was destroyed. The only reason why we could check back such a long time as we could on my family is that the counts were always kept. We still lost alot of documents in the wars, especially in the second world war...

I'm not trying to keep people from finding their roots since it is very interesting work but I have problems understanding the kind of fascination that comes over from America (especially!) to here...

Posted by: Elspeth 30-Jan-2004, 12:43 PM
America does have a culture today, one that resulted from being a melting pot. One out of many.

But we don't have a united historical culture. Those who came to these shores usually clung to their heritage and settled with their own kind. Making a New England, like the New Scotland to the north. This created pockets of cultures all over America. Little Italy's and Chinatowns abound as well as German districts, Slovak areas, etc.

It has probably only been since what, post WWII, that true integration began and we started to emerge as an American culture.

Just thinking out loud.

What was the question anyway? Surnames? It is interesting. I have ancestors who came over here from Ulster Ireland. But they have Scottish names. I am then assuming they were part of the plantation movement and are really transplanted Scots and not Irish, because from what I have read, those who settled Ulster Ireland did not intermingle with the native Irish for many reasons, especially the one of religion.

And I wonder about some of my German ancestors. Being Anabaptists, some of them fled Germany to Holland to escape the retaliatory persecution after the Mayhem at Munster. So, are they still German, did they become Dutch because they lived there for a couple of hundred years before emigrating. It does become confusing. I suppose they were Dutch of German descent.

So do any of these names sound German to you Aon? Rairigh (or Raiegh), Brillhard (or Brillhart), Speicher (or Speiker), Berkey? But then again, from what I read, when the Anabaptists came to America in the early 1700?s, almost all of them left Germany. So I wonder if any of those family names still exist there.

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 30-Jan-2004, 01:54 PM
Speicher does (a speicher means either the attic of a house, or a storagespace). the first sounds rather irish to me... =/ I'll ask my grandma to have a look into her surnames book (it's translating the meaning of surnames or their actual origin). Brillhart could be German but it doesn't sound like a name I have ever heard.

(btw, if you think european history is united you're wrong... germany as an example was only little states and duchies until the preussians actually started to unite everything)

Posted by: MDF3530 30-Jan-2004, 01:59 PM
It doesn't help that some clans are found in multiple countries. Take the Clan McLoughlin/Maclachlan. They are found in both Ireland and Scotland. I claim the Irish name because of two reasons: 1. I already have a Scottish clan (Maxwell), and 2. The Irish McLoughlins were royalty at one time.

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 30-Jan-2004, 02:09 PM
my problem with the whole clan idea ppl seem to have is basically that they claim the history of their clan and all that comes with it but their ancestors may have had absolutely nothing to do with it and for example joined later, nor would they probably have been actually a part of the certain family that made the clan history...
That's why I said earlier on, surnames don't actually say too much. My own surname doesn't say anything about my family's history - my childs surname will have even less to do with it.

Posted by: Elspeth 31-Jan-2004, 05:31 AM
QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Jan 30 2004, 02:54 PM)
Speicher does (a speicher means either the attic of a house, or a storagespace). the first sounds rather irish to me... =/ I'll ask my grandma to have a look into her surnames book (it's translating the meaning of surnames or their actual origin). Brillhart could be German but it doesn't sound like a name I have ever heard.

(btw, if you think european history is united you're wrong... germany as an example was only little states and duchies until the preussians actually started to unite everything)

We know the Raieghs came from Germany/Holland. But many wierd and wonderful spelling changes often ensued in the process, so who knows how it was spelled long, long ago. I can be pretty sure they were of the German area because of their religion. The Anabaptists started in such a small area and stayed there, so it would be doubtful to have other ancestries intermingled. And in the late 1600's if a Catholic had married a Protestant. Yikes! Romeo and Juliet stuff. Actually within the Anabaptist group it was a huge scandal when a member of The Church of the Brethren married a Mennonite. Two sects that evolved from the same root were not allowed to intermingle.

It is cool to know that Speicher means. Attic. Interesting.

I know what you mean about the dutchies. And, since the Anabaptist movement started in the Western area of what is now Germany, very close to what is now The Netherlands, who knows under whose protection these people actually lived. And I doubt it mattered much to them to have a nationality. As long as bread could be put on the table and they were protected from war or persecution. They were a pasifist people so they wouldn't have been off fighting for King and country anyway.

Maybe I should call them Rheinlanders instead of German or Dutch. rolleyes.gif

And as to surnames. My maiden name reflected my English heritage, which is only a small piece of the mix. But my dad referred to himself as English because of it, when in actuallity he was more German than English. And when a woman gets married! People keep assuming I'm Polish when I don't have a single ancestor from that country, religion or philosophy.

Posted by: Elspeth 31-Jan-2004, 08:32 AM
It might be interesting to share why were are interested in genealogy.

For me, I want to trace each branch of the family to its country of origin, preferably its place of origin. I want to know where I came from, literally. I want to know what the land looked like, how the people made their livings, what was their religion, did they live in farms or in a village or by the sea. I would like to be able to go to a place and say, my ancestor lived here, and in doing so feel a connection, at least to a place.

I also want to understand better the people who molded the people who molded me. For if you grow up in any family or community structure, you are influenced by it. And many of the norms of a family, or even a community go back many, many generations. Rules are followed or ideas held dear and people have no idea from which they came.

For example, even in the mid-seventies, my sister dating a Catholic was cause to raise eyebrows, something that didn't make sense to me. But when I researched the Brethren church, I discovered in the 1600's, the early Brethrens not only broke away from The Roman Catholic Church because of dissenting views, they were subsequently persecuted, some to the point of being burnt at the stake. This made me better understood the prejudice that had been held onto all these years, even though those who held those views may have had no idea what had happened to their ancestral community. Or if they did know of the history, they consciously decided to hold onto the belief system of their ancestors.

And the belief systems of those who raised me, are part of my make-up. So, in genealogy, I can better understand were I came from - the people, the geography, the religion and political climate - and that helps me to better understand the belief systems I was raised with. When that is understood, I am then able to create my own belief system based upon factual information, not the ?we?ve always been this way? philosophy. Though, there is some confort in this line of thought as well. I have a friend who conscioulsy holds onto a bad relational interaction trait because it is the way his family is. He says, in a twisted way, it keeps connected to his family who lives far away.

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 31-Jan-2004, 08:53 AM
well the actual Rhineland had quite a speckled history (I grew up in the region Rheinland/Bergisches Land). It actually belonged to the "independent" kingdom of Bavaria in the 19th century and before that the ruling family had land all over germany. the region I grew up in was the region in which the "Grafen von Spee" ruled (Counts) and one of their ancestors wrote a controversial book against the witch hunts and the "maleus maleficorum" (Hexenhammer, witchhammer).

Posted by: Keltic 31-Jan-2004, 09:34 AM
QUOTE
my problem with the whole clan idea ppl seem to have is basically that they claim the history of their clan and all that comes with it but their ancestors may have had absolutely nothing to do with it and for example joined later, nor would they probably have been actually a part of the certain family that made the clan history...
That's why I said earlier on, surnames don't actually say too much. My own surname doesn't say anything about my family's history - my childs surname will have even less to do with it. AD,

Surnames are only one piece of the puzzle but are no less important than birthdates. No you can't say that since my last name is X, therefore, my family took part in a certain event. This is brought on largely by the generic family history scrolls that you can purchase on-line or at many events. I think that you should give the benefit of the doubt to the people in here. They are obviously interested in their genealogy and therefore more than likely know that there is a bit more than just claiming lineage due to their last name.

QUOTE
I'm not trying to keep people from finding their roots since it is very interesting work but I have problems understanding the kind of fascination that comes over from America (especially!) to here...

Since North America is so young for a large part of the population here, retracing your roots means that you are going to be brought back to Scotland, Ireland, Germany, France or wherever. I don't think that immigrants to Scotland who are interested in genealogy are going to stop their research once it reaches beyond the Scottish borders. It's not about ignoring American culture but rather pulling in the full picture. Remember, you are on a Celtic forum and therefore the posts quite often are geared to the forum. It doesn't mean that these people haven't researched their American history. Perhaps if you went on to an "American History" forum, you would see the other side of the coin.

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 31-Jan-2004, 11:50 AM
hey: as I said, I don't want to keep people from it, but I have problems understanding the extend of it. Full picture or no, there's alot missing in my family history as well, especially from my grandfathers side because as far as we know his father was fathered by someone we don't know and his mother gave him away after the birth. We have no names from that line and not much hope to find anything because the birth registers were destroyed in WW2...

I wasn't talking about anybody in here, but I know enough of the sort that thinks "oh I'm clan something" and starts claiming the whole history of the clan not caring how the family got to that name. I maybe didn't express myself right... =/


Posted by: Elspeth 04-Feb-2004, 09:02 AM
AD
I'll have to ask you more about the Rheinland later. I'm not sure where that branch came from, just making some educated guesses based upon where the religious sect we are from origionated. And as it didn't spread much, I think it is a good guess, but it is a guess, nonetheless. Do you know Schwarzenau on the Elder River? You can answer me in a PM, I know I'm sliding off the topic of this thread. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 04-Feb-2004, 04:48 PM
Elder? don't think so. It might be something very small, all I know with EL E in it is the Elbe which runs from the czech republic through Germany to Hamburg where it enters the North Sea...

Alot of the stricter Christian Sects originated in the South (Calvinism for example which then moved upwards and had a huge following in what is now the Netherlands)...

But sure, PM me and I'll tell you what I know. (I don't mind veering off topic wink.gif ) Or start another topic for German Roots and I'm sure the Germans active on this board and I can try being some help.

Posted by: CelticRose 04-Feb-2004, 05:05 PM
Hey! I am enjoying what you all are saying. You're not veerying off topic to me! go for it! But that would be great to see a German roots in the forum too! I don't know that much about Germany and would love to learn. thumbs_up.gif

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 04-Feb-2004, 05:17 PM
I'm eager to share what I know. I take pride in the fact that my country isn't only bavaria & ludwig II castles wink.gif

Just yesterday my tutor was ill so one of the technicians took over and since I had another scan I was late and he had to show me what they were doing in person. He said something I didn't understand and he was very suprised to learn that I'm German and started talking to me about Germany and that he's been there on holidays many times, and in a lot of places I have been on holidays and such.
He says it's a crying shame that many ppl don't see Germany as the nice country it is and associate it with Bavaria...

Posted by: MacEoghainn 17-Feb-2004, 08:45 PM
QUOTE (MDF3530 @ Jan 30 2004, 02:59 PM)
The Irish McLoughlins were royalty at one time.

Based on the following it would appear claiming either spelling qualifies you for a Royal Irish linage. king.gif

From the Clan MacLachlan (North American) Web page http://www.maclachlans.org/

Who is Clan MacLachlan?

Clan MacLachlan is one of the oldest of all Scottish Clans. According to Irish manuscripts, the Clan is descended from the same line as the O'Neills, High Kings of Ireland.

Irish And Scottish - We Are One Family

Irish or Scottish - A Misconception

Since Clan MacLachlan descends from the Kings of ancient Dalridia, much confusion has arisen over whether the MacLachlans are Irish or Scottish. In reality, we are both. Our roots come from an age before Ireland and Scotland existed. Thus, any nationalistic feelings of being one or the other are of modern origin.

Since Clan MacLachlan has close ties to both Scotland and Ireland (for example, MacLachlan castles existed both in Scotland on Loch Fyne and in Northern Ireland at Aileach), we prefer to refer to ourselves as simply Celtic MacLachlans.

MacEoghainn (a member of Clan MacLachlan only because of those @#%$ Campbells)

Posted by: Elspeth 18-Feb-2004, 07:17 AM
Thanks for that info! We have a McGlaughlin in our family tree and there has been debate if she was Irish or Scottish. As this was a Presbyterian line, I was inclined to assume she was a Scot. So, if I am understanding you, the family began in Ireland and then went to Scotland. The funny part is this ancestor's famliy must have gone back centuries later as part of the plantation of Ireland, as they were Ulster Scots. Makes the American term Scots-Irish make more sense in this case. biggrin.gif

Posted by: Elspeth 18-Feb-2004, 07:22 AM
Ooppss... just checked and I was wrong. Had her in the wrong branch. She married my Welsh great-great grandfather. It was her son who married the Presbyterian. I don't know where that family came from, Scotland, Ireland proper or Ulster Ireland. She's a dead end branch. sad.gif I hate those. Wish I could discover more about her. I always loved her name. Amanda McGlaughlin

Posted by: gaberlunzie 18-Feb-2004, 08:00 AM
QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Feb 4 2004, 06:17 PM)
I'm eager to share what I know. I take pride in the fact that my country isn't only bavaria & ludwig II castles wink.gif

Just yesterday my tutor was ill so one of the technicians took over and since I had another scan I was late and he had to show me what they were doing in person. He said something I didn't understand and he was very suprised to learn that I'm German and started talking to me about Germany and that he's been there on holidays many times, and in a lot of places I have been on holidays and such.
He says it's a crying shame that many ppl don't see Germany as the nice country it is and associate it with Bavaria...

Oooops...I have a lot of kin in Bavaria wink.gif but I know what you mean, Aon. You're not so wrong with your opinion.
Germany is much more than Bavaria, the castles of Ludwig II or some cities along the River Rhine!
I've lived in different parts of Germany and if I could be of any help with any information I would gladly do it!

Elspeth, I don't know if it is still of interest for you or if your question concerning "Schwarzenau" is already answered.
There is a "Schwarzenau" which is part of the city "Bad Berleburg" today and which is situated at the river "Eder". Bad Berleburg is situated in the "Sauerland" and the Sauerland is rather near to the "Rheinland". Maybe it is the "Schwarzenau" you are looking for...

Posted by: Elspeth 18-Feb-2004, 08:56 AM
Yes! that is the area. I took the information from a Church of the Brethren website so this is all I know of it. Others settled in Krefeld too I think. (excuse any misspellings, I am not near my research)
What is that area like? I would love to hear anything you'd like to share.

Posted by: gaberlunzie 18-Feb-2004, 09:09 AM
There is NO misspelling at all, Elspeth!
Now, about the Sauerland I could tell you a wee bit as my best girlfriend is living in this area and it's about 1 1/2 to 2 hours by car from where I'm living now.
The best would be you ask what you are interested most in and I will give you any information I can. Including the one or other URL...but I need a bit time to collect the informations.
All in all the Sauerland is a region with middle-high mountains, some lakes and barrages; a bit rough sometimes but beautiful landscape; good possibilities for winter sports...
If you want I can look up some information especially about Schwarzenau/Bad Berleburg...
I'm not sure what you are looking for especially - so, please, ask...

P.S.
Found some more dates:
Schwarzenau (850 citizens, 360 - 590 m over N.N. )is called the pearl of the River Eder Valley. It is situated in a distance of about 10 km to Bad Berleburg. This village is the origin of the "Church of Brethren" in the USA.

If you want to see some pictures of the village:
http://ulrich.perwass.de/galerie/gal11/gal11a.htm

Click the photo on the top of the site. A gallery is opened. Click "Folge 1" and view pictures...until "Folge 6" to view all pictures of Schwarzenau and the landscape!

Posted by: gaberlunzie 18-Feb-2004, 09:30 AM
Oh, I forgot about Krefeld. Krefeld is a rather big town at the Rhine (Rhein) situated between Dortmund and Düsseldorf at the other side of the river. This is really "Rheinland" at its best!
It's not far from where Aon had lived so she should be able to tell you more about it than me: it's the region where she grew up (well, not exactly but rather near!) if I remember right...

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 18-Feb-2004, 11:12 AM
you do =) (I totally forgot to check this thread once in a while *smacks her forehead*)

Krefeld is about 15 minutes from Düsseldorf via the motorway so it's really quite close =) It's not overly big but it's nice for going shopping and around it are alot of smaller towns of which some are really old.
I remember that some years ago there was a tanker-accident on the rhine at Krefeld and my school was in the north of Düsseldorf right on the Rhine. The explosion was so big it even made the windows of my school tremble and they had to replace them all due to instability...

http://www.krefeld.de/
this is the official website of the town, only in German though =/ but you can go to "Tourismus" and then "Grußkarten aus Krefeld" and it will show you postcards of Krefeld.

Krefeld is a part of the Region called "Niederrhein" (Lower Rhine) and this is the official tourism website:
http://www.niederrhein-touristik.de/

Posted by: RavenWing 18-Feb-2004, 11:15 AM
Off Topic question for the Germans here.

Can someone gove me a translation of the surname Scholl?


Posted by: Aon_Daonna 18-Feb-2004, 11:27 AM
mmh I can't find it.. sorry ravenwing... maybe if someone has the "Familiennamen Duden" (it's an ecyclopedia for surnames)...

Posted by: gaberlunzie 18-Feb-2004, 11:32 AM
QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Feb 18 2004, 12:12 PM)
you do =) (I totally forgot to check this thread once in a while *smacks her forehead*)


biggrin.gif Hey, you're too young for senior moments...that's my job!!! wink.gif

RavenWing; this is no name which can be translated easily as e.g. "Mueller" = "Miller"...will be looking to find something...

Posted by: RavenWing 18-Feb-2004, 11:58 AM
Thanks anyway, I could pester you with quite a few, but that is the one I was really curious about.

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 18-Feb-2004, 12:02 PM
there is a few surname pages I looked up but I didn't find the meaning of it yet.. sorry...

Posted by: Elspeth 18-Feb-2004, 12:06 PM
Thanks gaberlunzie and Aon! The pictures are great.

It's so cool to see the places my ancestors came from. Not a great suprise to see it looks very like Pennsylvania where they settled.

I suppose what I want to know is what the landscape is like, what people did to make a living, especially back in the 1600's to early 1700's, was there some special industry besides farming. What crops does the land best support. Was it a sheep area, or cattle. What was the dress like. Is it an area that is close in its history to its German counterparts, or was it more influenced by it's Dutch neighbors, or was everyone just trying to make a living. I don't know what I want to know. I suppose what little tidbits of history and culture makes this area what it is.

As I think of more questions I'll ask! rolleyes.gif

Thanks

BTW, do either of you have any idea where the name Berkey would have originated from? We were always told German. But it would be Swiss or Austrian or who knows what. Could have been spelled Burkey at one time as well.

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 18-Feb-2004, 12:28 PM
Berkey? hmm I don't have a clue.. btw, there is photos of the landscape in the niederrhein touristic page, just go and look around regardless of the language.. there should be photos.
The thing about that area is: it's very flat. There are alot of old farms around that still look alot like a hundred years ago if you can imagine them without modern gear.
There is alot of World War II things around, like the Tank-stops and the motorways which were built for quick transport of troups to the front. As well some strips of the motorways are completely flat and were built for bombers to land on and the like.

There is a peculiarity that you find at the Niederrhein. Alleys of a certain type of tree which is capped at the top frequently (the look awful in that time) to form some sort of bulb on the top of the stem. It's on the opening page of the Niederrhein touristic page the bottom right photo.
Another thing alot of ppl think of when they think of the region is windmills...

EDIT: found a better photo
user posted image

Posted by: gaberlunzie 18-Feb-2004, 02:07 PM
Elspeth; if Berkey, Burkey is of German origin it MIGHT come from the name "Buerger", "Burger", which means "townsman, citizen".
Aon, what do you think?

RavenWing;

I found a bit about the surname "Scholl" in an encyclopaedia. It is said that "Scholl"
can have several meanings.

1) coming from "Scholle" which means a clod or a lump of earth and is related to "Bauer" which means "farmer" or - in the figurative meaning - a "clumsy man".

2) coming from an expression of an old form of German "schol" = "guilty"="instigator".

This is all I could find.

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 18-Feb-2004, 03:29 PM
well I found a village near Hameln which is called Berkel. I was having a look into Berkey but as a reference I only found Berkey in Ohio and an article about a German family who emigrated to that particular place (I think they were "Menonites" (how was it spelled?)). Since ppl often took up the name of the place they came from that might be a clue. A very wobbly one though.

Well, Berkey & Burkey are sounding similar when pronounced English so there might be a connection...

Posted by: RavenWing 18-Feb-2004, 03:47 PM
QUOTE (gaberlunzie @ Feb 18 2004, 08:07 PM)
Elspeth; if Berkey, Burkey is of German origin it MIGHT come from the name "Buerger", "Burger", which means "townsman, citizen".
Aon, what do you think?

RavenWing;

I found a bit about the surname "Scholl" in an encyclopaedia. It is said that "Scholl"
can have several meanings.

1) coming from "Scholle" which means a clod or a lump of earth and is related to "Bauer" which means "farmer" or - in the figurative meaning - a "clumsy man".

2) coming from an expression of an old form of German "schol" = "guilty"="instigator".

This is all I could find.

Wow, thanks for all the information. You really didn't have to go to all that trouble, though.

Posted by: gaberlunzie 18-Feb-2004, 03:53 PM
QUOTE (RavenWing @ Feb 18 2004, 04:47 PM)
QUOTE (gaberlunzie @ Feb 18 2004, 08:07 PM)
Elspeth; if Berkey, Burkey is of German origin it MIGHT come from the name "Buerger", "Burger", which means "townsman, citizen".
Aon, what do you think?

RavenWing;

I found a bit about the surname "Scholl" in an encyclopaedia. It is said that "Scholl"
can have several meanings.

1) coming from "Scholle" which means a clod or a lump of earth and is related to "Bauer" which means "farmer" or - in the figurative meaning - a "clumsy man".

2) coming from an expression of an old form of German "schol" = "guilty"="instigator".

This is all I could find.

Wow, thanks for all the information. You really didn't have to go to all that trouble, though.

Oh, you're welcome...no problem at all! It's a subject I'm very interested in and so it was fun! laugh.gif I am glad I could help...

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 18-Feb-2004, 04:30 PM
I second that, gaberlunzie.. I like doing research on all sorts of things. I will have to get my surname book over one day though...

Posted by: MacEoghainn 18-Feb-2004, 04:31 PM
Please pardon my bad german: nerd.gif

Was geht hier weiter? Habe ich gedacht, daß wir schottische namen diskutierten? offtopic.gif oops.gif (just kidding!)


Which is to say: What is going on here? I thought we were discussing Scottish names? rolleyes.gif

Seriously, my maternal grandmother was half Pennsylvania Dutch with the last name of Pixler (which I discovered is actually the total butchering of the German name Bichsel). Her Bichsel immigrant ancestor came from Switzerland but she also had German/French ancestors from the Otterberg area in Germany (which I believe was known as the principality of Palentine before the unified Germany existed)

MacEoghainn

Posted by: CelticRose 18-Feb-2004, 10:39 PM
Well these are names in my family search that I am told are of Scottish origin, Steve! wink.gif

Walker, Taylor, McArthur, Suit, Blackstock, Allison.

I worked hard on the Allison one cause in some places on the internet she was coming across as Ellerson. Well I came across some cemetary records that a cousin had sent me and it is confirmed Allison.


Posted by: Elspeth 18-Feb-2004, 10:51 PM
QUOTE (MacEoghainn @ Feb 18 2004, 05:31 PM)
Seriously, my maternal grandmother was half Pennsylvania Dutch with the last name of Pixler (which I discovered is actually the total butchering of the German name Bichsel). Her Bichsel immigrant ancestor came from Switzerland but she also had German/French ancestors from the Otterberg area in Germany (which I believe was known as the principality of Palentine before the unified Germany existed)

MacEoghainn

And Pennsylvania Dutch is a mutiliation of Deutch. So people think PA dutch means they are from Holland, when in actuality they are actually of German descent.

Isn't Palentine the area I was asking about where Scwartzenau(sp?) is?

Hey MacEoghainn, if you are PA Dutch, if we go back far enough we could be related. smile.gif And if you are from the clan McLaughlin were they from PA too? I keep trying to find a fit for my Amanda McGlaughlin.

Thanks gaberlunzie and Aon for the info. I like the idea of the Berkey name coming from a village. Makes as much sense as any. Found Hamel on my map, no Berkel though. Must be too small.

Posted by: gaberlunzie 19-Feb-2004, 02:20 AM
[QUOTE=Elspeth,Feb 18 2004, 11:51 PM][QUOTE=MacEoghainn,Feb 18 2004, 05:31 PM] Seriously, my maternal grandmother was half Pennsylvania Dutch with the last name of Pixler (which I discovered is actually the total butchering of the German name Bichsel). Her Bichsel immigrant ancestor came from Switzerland but she also had German/French ancestors from the Otterberg area in Germany (which I believe was known as the principality of Palentine before the unified Germany existed)

MacEoghainn [/QUOTE]
And Pennsylvania Dutch is a mutiliation of Deutch. So people think PA dutch means they are from Holland, when in actuality they are actually of German descent.


This is exactly right, Elspeth. What finally ended as "Dutch" in American comes from a dialect pronounciation of the word "Deutsch" and has nothing to do with Holland!


Isn't Palentine the area I was asking about where Scwartzenau(sp?) is?


No, Schwarzenau isn't situated in Palentine ("Pfalz"). Otterberg, yes, it is in the area of Kaiserslautern and this is Palentine.


Hey MacEoghainn, if you are PA Dutch, if we go back far enough we could be related. smile.gif And if you are from the clan McLaughlin were they from PA too? I keep trying to find a fit for my Amanda McGlaughlin.

Thanks gaberlunzie and Aon for the info. I like the idea of the Berkey name coming from a village. Makes as much sense as any. Found Hamel on my map, no Berkel though. Must be too small.


Elspeth, I will try to get you more information about Schwarzenau and/or adresses you can contact to find out more...it would be useful to have some names then: I'll see...just need some days...let me know if you want me to do a bit research for you. [/QUOTE]
smile.gif

Posted by: gaberlunzie 19-Feb-2004, 02:25 AM
QUOTE (MacEoghainn @ Feb 18 2004, 05:31 PM)
Please pardon my bad german: nerd.gif

Was geht hier weiter? Habe ich gedacht, daß wir schottische namen diskutierten? offtopic.gif oops.gif (just kidding!)


Which is to say: What is going on here? I thought we were discussing Scottish names? rolleyes.gif

MacEoghainn

Hey, I love your German... smile.gif aah, it's balsam for my soul to read some German words on an American site wink.gif

Posted by: CelticRose 19-Feb-2004, 02:34 AM
Gabby, You are such a sweet, wonderful person. I love reading your posts! smile.gif

Posted by: gaberlunzie 19-Feb-2004, 02:43 AM
Hi, Rose; aaah, this is my favourite nightowl again tongue.gif wink.gif ;

hey, now, don't make me BLUSH...but thank you anyway smile.gif ! It's just because I'm enjoying my "family" here so much, I think!

Posted by: CelticRose 19-Feb-2004, 03:04 AM
Gabby! Yes! It is your favorite night owl again! I go in spurts. rolleyes.gif

So happy to see you are enjoying it here so much! I always appreciate what you have to say. thumbs_up.gif

Posted by: gaberlunzie 19-Feb-2004, 03:19 AM
And I do always appreciate your posts as well, Rose! And the variety of opinions, experiences and gifts of all the people here.

Oh yes, I know that - especially at the weekends - to go in spurts all of a sudden in the middle of the night! Unfortunately I have to get up early (5.45 am) in the morning during the week and I have to try to get some hours of sleep then. I do love the night, the silence, the peaceful atmosphere, the feeling that this is really MY time now. No phone, noone disturbing and all is wrapped in dark velvet...*sigh*

Posted by: Elspeth 19-Feb-2004, 07:04 AM
QUOTE (gaberlunzie @ Feb 19 2004, 03:20 AM)
Elspeth, I will try to get you more information about Schwarzenau and/or adresses you can contact to find out more...it would be useful to have some names then: I'll see...just need some days...let me know if you want me to do a bit research for you. [/QUOTE]
smile.gif

Thanks so much!

As to names, the thing is, those ancestors left Germany by 1737. Being part of an elite religious sect, they are relatively easy to trace because there was no intermarrying outside of the sect. A memeber of the Church of the Brethren(COB) marrying a Mennonite was scandalous enough to rock the church. Even though both churchs came directly from the same Anabaptist movement.
The names I have are Speicher and Rairigh mostly. There is also Brillhard which got changed to Brillhart. They came from Holland, but many of the COB people in the 1500 (or was it 1600? I forgot) moved to Holland to escape the religious persecution they faced in what is now Germany. So, I am assuming this branch originated in Germany, but they could have been a convert from Holland. There are also Wamplers, Deardorfs, Kaufmans and Braughlers intermarried in there.

Since I have such amazing resources here I should ask about the other branches of the family. These ones I have no idea where they came from.

There is Moss (which probably started out as Maus) and Mumau. We know from census records that the Moss family came from Germany in the early to mid 1800's. Mumau was rumoured to be German and that is all I know.

Posted by: Elspeth 19-Feb-2004, 07:12 AM
And back to Scotland.... if anyone can tell me anything about these names. I think they could be Scottish, but we don't know anything about them.

Dodds
Dodson


And I know the Ferriers and Clawsons came from Scotland but I have no idea where. There is speculation for both, but no facts. These names don't appear under any clan names that I have been able to find. A ferrier is a person who shoes horses. So, it could have been an occupational name. Another thought was that it came from a family who ran a ferry in one particular area of Scotland. (have to look up where that was from)

So, if any of you Scots have heard of any of these names I'd love to hear about it.

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 19-Feb-2004, 07:52 AM
alot of the names you won't be able to find under clan names... you have to think about the history of highland and lowland scotland before you go searching for them in clansepts.

Alot of names actually come from the towns where they didn't really have much to do with the clansystem, or the lowlands.
Ferrier/Ferry in connection with a ferrybusiness could be Fife or Lothian for example because alot of the important ferry points were here, for example Inverkeithing and Queensferry. Next time I go to Kirkcaldy Library I'll have a look into the name ressources for you, I have the names scribbled down already and put near my library books.

Posted by: Catriona 19-Feb-2004, 07:52 AM
Elspeth
Dodds is, as far as I recall, a Borders name - I seem to recall seeing lots of shops with the name 'Dodds' in Hawick and Berwick..... Perhaps you could try that as a starting point.... I have no idea whether or not it was ever a sept of any clan, but if it IS a borders name, that wouldn't be surprising.

'Dodd' or 'Doddie' is also a 'by name' (sort of nickname) for those Scots with the forename of George.... Doddie Weir is the name of a famous Scottish rugby player.

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 19-Feb-2004, 07:57 AM
arrrgh.. just had a look into my bf's fathers surname... I mean bloody hell, what they aren't trying to sell you you can count up on one hand...

Posted by: Elspeth 19-Feb-2004, 08:35 AM
Thanks guys!

Many of these names are from the women married into the tree (at least in hindsight biggrin.gif ) and they usually end up a dead end. I'd be happy if I could just learn from where they came. I'm pretty darn sure there's no royalty in my family tree. rolleyes.gif We were more likely the scullery maids. unsure.gif

The Clawsons were rumored to have left Scotland due to 'the clearances' though the timing is more like after Culloden. It was also rumoured they may have changed their name. If so, I wonder why they picked Clawson? Some think they came from Orkney, but who knows.

I did read that there were Ferriers in Fife and the name came from the ferrying business they ran. In America a ferrier is one who shoes horses. Is that the same in Britain?

Posted by: Catriona 19-Feb-2004, 08:49 AM
We call them farriers or blacksmiths

If the Claswons are rumoured to have changd their names - is there perhaps a chance that is was from Lawson? Lawson is a fairly common surname in Scotland today.

Posted by: Elspeth 19-Feb-2004, 09:29 AM
Could be, Catriona. I'll have to check and see if Lawson was used as a Christian name later. That might be a clue. Other branches of the family did that, why my mom had an uncle Logan. smile.gif And my grandfather's first name was Moss. unsure.gif

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 19-Feb-2004, 09:46 AM
ehh.. I have no idea ... well, they should have some surname books in the genealogy section of the library.. so I'll have a look.

Posted by: RavenWing 19-Feb-2004, 10:01 AM
QUOTE (gaberlunzie @ Feb 19 2004, 08:25 AM)
Hey, I love your German... smile.gif aah, it's balsam for my soul to read some German words on an American site  wink.gif

Then how is this?

Was kostet der Tachenrechner? laugh.gif

Sorry, that is about all the German I know. I could say plenty of Spanish and Russian, though. wink.gif

Posted by: gaberlunzie 19-Feb-2004, 10:29 AM
QUOTE (RavenWing @ Feb 19 2004, 11:01 AM)
Then how is this?

Was kostet der Tachenrechner? laugh.gif

Sorry, that is about all the German I know. I could say plenty of Spanish and Russian, though. wink.gif

Wooohooo!!! This I definitely love, too!!! laugh.gif
Spanish? Russian? *asking curiously* cool.gif

Posted by: MacEoghainn 19-Feb-2004, 01:13 PM
Hope this make sense, I'm responding to mutiple posts! unsure.gif

QUOTE (CelticRose @ Feb 18 2004, 11:39 PM)
Well these are names in my family search that I am told are of Scottish origin, Steve!  wink.gif

Walker, Taylor, McArthur, Suit, Blackstock, Allison. 

I worked hard on the Allison one cause in some places on the internet she was coming across as Ellerson. Well I came across some cemetary records that a cousin had sent me and it is confirmed Allison.


CelticRose,

Here are my Scots (or families who claimed to be):
Alexander, Barnes, Bruce, Clark, Dick, Ewing, Forbes, Gillespie, Johnson, Neal (or O'Neal), Russell, Sample (or Semple), Stewart, Webster.

and don't forget the Irish: English (an Ulster Irish name written by an englishman), Henry, Higgins, McKee.

and the Welsh: Powell (Ap Howell) and Rice (Ap Rhys)


QUOTE (Elspeth @ Feb 18 2004, 11:51 PM)
Hey MacEoghainn, if you are PA Dutch, if we go back far enough we could be related.  smile.gif  And if you are from the clan McLaughlin were they from PA too? I keep trying to find a fit for my Amanda McGlaughlin.


Elspeth,

My Pennsylvania Dutch ancestors go back to before the Revolution. (got any Bixler/Pixler/Bichsel relatives?)

My connections to Clan MacLachlan are convoluted, to say the least. My real Clan is MacEwen {MacEoghainn: where I stole my moniker from wink.gif }(which was broken by the Duke of Argyll in the 1400s) and are not a sept of Clan MacLachlan, instead MacEwen is a protectorate. (those who want more specifics check out the Clan MacLachlan website at http://www.maclachlans.org/ ) Though my great-grandfather Ewing's half sister did marry a McLaughlin which makes me kin to all her childrens McLaughlin descendants.


QUOTE (RavenWing @ Feb 19 2004, 11:01 AM)
Was kostet der Tachenrechner?


Ravenwing,

Was ein ist Tachenrechner? (What is a Tachenrechner?) huh.gif

QUOTE (Elspeth @ Feb 19 2004, 08:04 AM)
Being part of an elite religious sect, they are relatively easy to trace because there was no intermarrying outside of the sect. A memeber of the Church of the Brethren(COB) marrying a Mennonite was scandalous enough to rock the church. Even though both churchs came directly from the same Anabaptist movement.


That means my great-grandfather Pixler was in big trouble when he married my great-grandmother (last name of Higgins, Irish/Scot/Welsh/English Presbyterian of New England Yankee stock) shocking.gif His maternal grandfather was a Pastor in a Brethern Church in West "by God" Virginia.

MacEoghainn

Posted by: CelticRose 19-Feb-2004, 01:33 PM
Elspeth, I am having the same problem with all my great-grandmothers who were married into the line. I keep hitting dead ends with them. I only have two that has been traced back to British Isles and that is because my historian cousin was able to do it,but he spent many years doing his research too. I have only just begun my quest!

Cat, stupid question here. What does a "borders" name mean? Does that mean they could either have been Scottish or English? Or border of Highland vs Lowlands? unsure.gif


Posted by: Aon_Daonna 19-Feb-2004, 03:07 PM
the borders are the region that were frequently overrun by both sides. Alot of the towns have roots in one country but are now belonging to the other (Berwick for example). eh.. geographically I'd have to look it up now.
http://www.scot-borders.co.uk/newsIndex.aspx maybe not the best website but there is at least a wee bit info.

Taschenrechner is a calculator.

Posted by: Catriona 19-Feb-2004, 04:47 PM
The Scots refer to people from that region as Borderers... BUT many of the families lived on BOTH sides of the border... which was fairly fluid in earlier times!

Some of the famous border families were called Border Reivers. Such families as the Armstrongs, the Bothwells and the Homes (Humes) were part of this group.

The name Armstrong, for instance, is both Scots and English - because of the fact that the border moved quite a bit in earlier times!

The border towns are an interesting area, all of their own... they are neither Highlanders nor Lowlanders.... they are Borderers! Towns such as Berwick, Dunbar, North Berwick, Galashiels, Jedburgh and Kelso... Great area - I love it... cool.gif


Posted by: Aon_Daonna 19-Feb-2004, 06:57 PM
Galashiels is lovely.. a friend's sister lives there and we went there a couple of times....

Posted by: Catriona 20-Feb-2004, 02:44 AM
Yes, I like Galashiels, too, AD...

One of my best friends from my school days lives just outside Kelso - it is so peaceful there, I love it!

Posted by: Elspeth 20-Feb-2004, 05:05 AM
So, does this mean my English ancestors (Peel) from Northumberland are considered to be part of the 'border' region or is that too far south?

Posted by: Elspeth 20-Feb-2004, 05:16 AM
QUOTE (MacEoghainn @ Feb 19 2004, 02:13 PM)
Elspeth,

My Pennsylvania Dutch ancestors go back to before the Revolution. (got any Bixler/Pixler/Bichsel relatives?)

My connections to Clan MacLachlan are convoluted, to say the least. My real Clan is MacEwen {MacEoghainn: where I stole my moniker from wink.gif }(which was broken by the Duke of Argyll in the 1400s) and are not a sept of Clan MacLachlan, instead MacEwen is a protectorate. (those who want more specifics check out the Clan MacLachlan website at http://www.maclachlans.org/ ) Though my great-grandfather Ewing's half sister did marry a McLaughlin which makes me kin to all her childrens McLaughlin descendants.


That means my great-grandfather Pixler was in big trouble when he married my great-grandmother (last name of Higgins, Irish/Scot/Welsh/English Presbyterian of New England Yankee stock) shocking.gif His maternal grandfather was a Pastor in a Brethern Church in West "by God" Virginia.

MacEoghainn

I think things had lightened up by then. biggrin.gif The scandal I am referring to happened in the late 1600's. But it probably still wouldn't have been the preferred marriage. If my great-great-great-greats knew I married a Catholic and then we both became Presbyterian they'd be rolling over in their graves so quickly it would look like dancing, which of course they were forbidden to do. rolleyes.gif

You know the name Pixler does look familiar to me. What part of PA are you talking about? This branch of my family came over in 1737, first settling around Philadelphia and moving west to Sommerset Co, and then ending up in Indiana Co.

Posted by: Catriona 20-Feb-2004, 05:56 AM
Northumberland is certainly one of the English counties that lies close to the Border.

Did you know that there is an ancient form of 'castle' called a Peel (or Pele) Tower? They were common throughout the borders area - on both sides!

I seem to recall that the name comes from the word 'Pale'....

Posted by: Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas 20-Feb-2004, 05:58 AM
Last night I received a report on a Clan Donald DNA study in which I am a participant, which seems to be at least tangentially related to surnames, and what they tell about someone's origins.
On a general level, the study tends to confirm traditional clan geneologies.
On a more personal level, the study suggests that I, along with some others, are members of a branch of Clan Donald that is more closely related to the McGuinness clan (to which the Guinness brewery family belongs) than to other branches of Clan Donald. While further study and analysis is necessary before any firm conclusions can be drawn, the data currently available tends to suggest that my branch may be descended from the ancient kings of the Cruithni Dal Araidhe tribe, rather than the Niall and Clan Cholla tribes from which the main line of Clan Donald descends, and which overthrew the Dal Ariadne line of kings.
While I had found descendants of the ancient Ulster kings listed in some lineages on my mother's side, I had always dismissed these lineages as more mythological than real. Perhaps I was too quick in doing so. As further DNA data becomes available, it will be interesting to see whether the initial analyis holds up.

Posted by: Elspeth 20-Feb-2004, 06:34 AM
QUOTE (Catriona @ Feb 20 2004, 06:56 AM)
Northumberland is certainly one of the English counties that lies close to the Border.

Did you know that there is an ancient form of 'castle' called a Peel (or Pele) Tower? They were common throughout the borders area - on both sides!

I seem to recall that the name comes from the word 'Pale'....

A few years ago there was an article on the Peel castle in the Cleveland paper. The article made it sound like it was the ruins of a specific castle. But you're saying it was a type of castle structure? Interesting. Wonder why they have that name.

And if my name comes from the word pale that certianly describes me biggrin.gif if not my grandfather who was nicknamed Brownie because he got so tan. Then again, who would want to be called Moss? That family was nuts. There were 17 kids and every one went by a nickname. I can't keep 4 names straight, 34 would be beyond imagining. tongue.gif

Mailagnas, I didn't know DNA studies were being done for geneological (sp?) purposes. Interesting.

Posted by: Catriona 20-Feb-2004, 07:53 AM
The word peel is from the latin 'palus'... because the first Peel towers were often constructed of wood.

There IS a specific castle called Peel Castle, but I think it's on the Isle of Man!

The whole borders area is dotted with ruined and renovated Peel Towers. When you travel up to Scotland by train, you start seeing the peel towers (mostly ruins) just south of Durham... but I think there are probably a lot more dotted around the English side of the border than just the area I've mentioned.

The borderers have a very interesting history... in many ways much more interesting than the highlands....

Here's a map showing the main area of interest in historical terms...

http://www.pro.gov.uk/pathways/utk/maps/scotinset.htm

The Border Reiver families (not clans) such as Armstrong, Scott and others have colourful histories - well worth reading about.

The land is and was even in historical times - some of the most productive in Scotland - it was therefore a valuable commodity - stealing cattle, stealing sheep, acting as 'protection' racketeers - hmmmm, yes - those must have been frightening times to live in that area!

Posted by: Elspeth 20-Feb-2004, 08:46 AM

Thanks Catriona. Now that you mention it, I think the article was on the castle on the Isle of Man.

My Peel ancestors emmigrated from Bedlington in Northumberland, which I understand is near the coast and was at that time(1836) a coal mining region, which seems fitting as they moved into a coal mining area in Pennsylvania and my grandfather was a coal miner. I wonder what it was like earlier.

I have a gut feeling that most of my ancestors might have been from the borders region. When the English crown chose families for the plantation of Ulster, did they mostly come from the borders or was it more widespread throughout the lowland(protestant) areas? We have a branch that came from Ulster in 1803- Anderson. I understand that is a pretty common name. Is there a particular region Andersons are from or are they from about everywhere?

I forgot, which region is Edinburgh part of? Lothian? That's not considered to be a border region is it? Too far north right? I don't have the map with the regions handy.

Posted by: RavenWing 20-Feb-2004, 08:47 AM
QUOTE (MacEoghainn @ Feb 19 2004, 07:13 PM)
Ravenwing,

Was ein ist Tachenrechner? (What is a Tachenrechner?) huh.gif




According to my freshman German class it is a calculator.


(I only took German for 4 weeks, transferred to a school that did not offer German sad.gif)

Posted by: RavenWing 20-Feb-2004, 08:49 AM
QUOTE (gaberlunzie @ Feb 19 2004, 04:29 PM)
Spanish? Russian? *asking curiously* cool.gif

Yes, I took Spanish when I was in high school, and I majored in Russian Area Studies in college

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 20-Feb-2004, 08:56 AM
a Taschenrechner is a calculator... *nods*

I'd love to learn Russian, since I plan to travel to there one fine day...

Posted by: MacEoghainn 20-Feb-2004, 12:53 PM
QUOTE (RavenWing @ Feb 20 2004, 09:47 AM)
According to my freshman German class it is a calculator.
(I only took German for 4 weeks, transferred to a school that did not offer German sad.gif)
In that case: Ich habe einen anständigen Taschenrechner an Radio Shack für weniger als $50.00 gekauft.

QUOTE (RavenWing @ Feb 20 2004, 09:47 AM)
Yes, I took Spanish when I was in high school, and I majored in Russian Area Studies in college

I also took Spanish in High School, but I don't speak it or German (I've been cheating on the German, I use this website to translate for me: http://www.freetranslation.com/). I have a hard enough time speaking American English (Midwest dialect, though have been accused by a cousin of sounding like I'm from Texas laugh.gif )

MacEoghainn

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 20-Feb-2004, 01:00 PM
well, a decent german-english online dictionary is http://dict.leo.org.
They also offer their service for french-german now... but I would guess that isn't much use to you wink.gif

Posted by: RavenWing 20-Feb-2004, 01:04 PM
QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Feb 20 2004, 07:00 PM)
well, a decent german-english online dictionary is http://dict.leo.org.
They also offer their service for french-german now... but I would guess that isn't much use to you wink.gif

It could translate "Je suis fromage" for me laugh.gif

(basically the only French I know)

Posted by: RavenWing 20-Feb-2004, 01:10 PM
QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Feb 20 2004, 02:56 PM)
I'd love to learn Russian, since I plan to travel to there one fine day...

It was surprisingly easy for me. If you know the Greek alphabet, you can figure out Russian. Unfortunately, I have forgotten a lot of it in the past couple of years.

Posted by: MacEoghainn 20-Feb-2004, 01:34 PM
QUOTE (Elspeth @ Feb 20 2004, 06:16 AM)
I think things had lightened up by then.  biggrin.gif The scandal I am referring to happened in the late 1600's. But it probably still wouldn't have been the preferred marriage. If my great-great-great-greats knew I married a Catholic and then we both became Presbyterian they'd be rolling over in their graves so quickly it would look like dancing, which of course they were forbidden to do.  rolleyes.gif

You know the name Pixler does look familiar to me. What part of PA are you talking about? This branch of my family came over in 1737, first settling around Philadelphia and moving west to Sommerset Co, and then ending up in Indiana Co.

My great-grandfather didn't end his naughty.gif "sinning" evil.gif with his marriage to my great-grandmother, years latter he ran off with his oldest daughters best friend. Talk about rolling over in your grave! jawdrop.gif

My immigrant Pixler/Bixler/Bichsel ancestor was Christian Bixler b.October 05, 1706 in Sumiswald, Eggiwill, Bern, Switzerland and immigrated to Cocalico Township, Lancaster, Pennsylvania sometime before 1734. His wife's name was Catherine Shearer, also born in Switzerland about 1715.

The Pixler/Bixler/Bichsel's stayed in the Lancaster area until my ancestor, John Pixler b.June 05, 1801, got lost wink.gif and wandered over the border into Virginia (what is now Monongalia County, West Virginia) and married a young Irish lass (about 1825) named Elizabeth Henry (daughter of James and Elizabeth Henry, both born in Ireland).

MacEoghainn

Posted by: gaberlunzie 20-Feb-2004, 02:03 PM
QUOTE (RavenWing @ Feb 20 2004, 09:49 AM)
Yes, I took Spanish when I was in high school, and I majored in Russian Area Studies in college

That's great! I love languages and what one can do with them: to communicate! I had English, French, Latin (urrrgh!) and Spanish at school and learnt a bit Italian...
Not long ago I started to study Scots...will still take some time, I'm afraid. unsure.gif I love to listen to the sound of Scottish voices!

Russian is very interesting, too...perhaps one day... smile.gif

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 20-Feb-2004, 02:11 PM
learning languages is alot of fun I think. I started on Italian when I was just 7 but didn't do much until I took it again in school 10 years later. I've also learned English and French in school and I'm currently learning Finnish...

I absolutely love being able to communicate with people from all over the world...

Posted by: gaberlunzie 20-Feb-2004, 02:28 PM
Finnish...you have friends over there, havn't you? Must be interesting; a very different language!
I'd agree, learning languages definitely can be fun! And when I'm travelling a country I prefer understanding and speaking its language good enough to be able to communicate with the people there...Then you have a chance to REALLY get to know country and people and to see and visit places remote from the tourist centers.

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 20-Feb-2004, 02:41 PM
yup, that's what I love about it.

I was going to travel to finland this year but becoming pregnant made that plan void smile.gif We were going to visit a few friends and go and see the midnight sun...

Posted by: gaberlunzie 20-Feb-2004, 02:54 PM
Nothing you will not be able to to in a while together with the wee one then! smile.gif

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 20-Feb-2004, 06:57 PM
well, we plan to do so once it's old enough =)

Posted by: dfilpus 21-Mar-2004, 09:28 AM
You people with British Isles ancestors have it easy with surnames.

Up to 1880, there were few family names in Finland.

Most people worked for large farms or houses. You took the name of the house that you worked at. Otherwise you were "Name son/daugher of Parent". The houses names were "Name's farm". When you emigrated, you would end up with the surname of the last house.

The only family names were held by the house owners, whose family would keep the name, wherever they worked and the professions, lawyers, doctors and clergy.

What happens with this is that records in Finland are difficult to search, since names changed all of the time. Also, immigrants to this country with the same last name may come from the same area, but be completely unrelated.

During the immigrant years of 1880-1920, family names were adopted in Finland. Those without family names adopted family names invented for the purpose.

In my family, the surnames are Filpus (from Saint Phillip, a clergical name), Marttila ( Martti (Martin) farm), Hannula (Hannu (Hans) farm) and Kaskinen (Koski farm).

Posted by: Elspeth 21-Mar-2004, 04:19 PM
That is so cool to know dfilpus, but must be frustrating as anything when searching geneology. unsure.gif

Posted by: ChuckDenton 03-Apr-2004, 03:02 PM
I've been trying to find out how my English surname came to be considered to be Irish...then I found out that our family came to Ireland, Ulster, and settled there. So although I am Irish Catholic, I am actually Irish Protestant. Intersting what you can learn when you search long enough!


Posted by: CelticRose 10-Apr-2004, 04:25 PM
I have the same thing in my family, Chuck! I have a great-grandmother who had the last name of Carleton. Sounds pretty English to me. I even did a search on the surname and it said Wales! However, this particular great-grandmother was born and raised in Ireland! So does that make me a wee bit Irish?

Posted by: Crowned1 17-Apr-2004, 10:13 AM
Well.... there are some things that you need to consider when thinking about surnames too, espically for those of us with a diverse American background.
For example, my surname is apparently of Czech origin. However, I have not a drop of Czech blood in me (as far as I know). This is because my great-grandfather on my father's side was adopted by his new stepfather when he was a baby, and took his last name.
If that story had not been passed down to me, and I determined my heratige by researching my surname, I would assume that I am of Czech heratige on my fathers side. (As it is, I am truly Scotch/German)

~Crowned One king.gif

Posted by: CelticRose 17-Apr-2004, 07:15 PM
Hi Crowned One! So nice to have you here. Czech surname, eh? That is very interesting. So you are of Scots/German ancestry then? I supposedly have some Scots ancestry too, still working on that one. So far it has been confirmed I have lots of Italian, English and Irish. I am getting no where on my supposed Scots grandmothers! They could all be Irish for all I know, but either way would be wonderful! However, Sigh! So frustrating in trying to research. Still researching though.

Posted by: Crowned1 17-Apr-2004, 10:55 PM
Yep... Czech.... it starts with STRN ..... 4 consants in a row! Not hard to spell or pronounce once you know what it is, but it always throws people off when they first see it. It is crazy for people to question that you know how to spell your own last name! Ahhh well, hopefully in a year or so I will be shedding it for a very common Cuban surname that nobody should get wrong ! inlove.gif wink2.gif
My Scottish heratige is on my mother's side. Her mother was from Canada, and of Scottish background, and my grandfather was born and raised in Dundee, Scotland. So I still have many relatives over there. What a lovely country! I have only visited once, but will hopefully be able to make it over there many more times!

~Crowned One king.gif

Posted by: CelticRose 18-Apr-2004, 01:38 AM
Oh lucky you, Crowned1! I hope to get to the UK next year! That is my hope and dream. However, I will need to buy a new vehicle by then so hopefully I can do both. Greedy, aren't I? LOL

Posted by: mingkee 15-May-2004, 06:58 PM
er...
er...
errr...
I may be more interesting...
becoz my origin...completely not Celtic, British, Eu related
I am an Asian...

Posted by: wizardofowls 15-May-2004, 08:16 PM
Cana nyone recommend a good site that would help me to discover the origins of two family names? I know that my last name, Alderman, is German. I know that my mother's maiden name, McKay, is Scottish, but I don't know the origins of my grandmothers' last names, Hodge and Newcomb. Any help would be appreciated!

Posted by: Catriona 16-May-2004, 08:42 AM
Mackay, or Mackie or McKay is Clan MacKay... The following information is from www.electricscotland.com This is a good Scottish site, but unfortunately, it does not verify any information that it posts - ie it posts what it is sent...! So, I would definitely suggest that you check this info with another source. There appears to be absolutely scads of info on Mackays.... This is just a taster!

Any name with 'combe' in it usuallymeans it's English, not Scots. There are lots of place names ending with 'Combe' in the West Country (English counties of Devon, Somerset and Cornwall) Hodge, too is, as far as I know, English in origin.

The most northern mainland county of Scotland is that of Caithness, and the principal clan inhabiting this district is the important one of Mackay, or the siol Mhorgan. With regard to Caithness, Mr Skene says - "The district of Caithness was originally of much greater extent than the modern country of that name, as it included the whole of the extensive and mountainous district of Strathnaver. Towards the middle of the tenth century the Norwegian Jarl of Orkney obtained possession of this province, and with the exception of a few short intervals, it continued to form a part of his extensive territories for a period of nearly two hundred years. The district of Strathnaver, which formed the western portion of the ancient district of Caithness, differed very much in appearance from the rest of it, exhibiting indeed the most complete contrast which could well be conceived, for while the eastern division was in general low, destitute of mountains, and altogether of a Lowland character, Strathnaver possessed the characteristics of the rudest and most inaccessible of Highland countries; the consequence of this was, that while the population of Caithness proper became speedily and permanently Norse, that of Strathnaver must, from the nature of the country, have remained in a great measure Celtic; and this distinction between the two districts is very strongly marked throughout the Norse Sagas, the eastern part being termed simply Katenesi, while Strathnaver, on the other hand, is always designated 'Dolum a Katernesi', or the Glens of Caithness. That the population of Strathnaver remained Gaelic we have the distinct authority of the Sagas, for they inform us that the Dolum, or glens, were inhabited by the 'Gaddgedli', a word plainly signifying some tribe of the Gael, as in the latter syllable we recognise the word Gaedil or Gael, which at all events shews that the population of that portion was not Norse.

"The oldest Gaelic clan which we find in possession of this part of the ancient district of Caithness is the clan Morgan or Mackay".

The accounts of the origin of the Mackays are various. In the MS of 1450, there is no reference to it, although mention is made of the Mackays of Kintyre, who were called of Ugadale. These, however, were vassals of the Isles, and had no connection with the Mackays of Strathnaver. Pennant assigns to them a Celto-Irish descent, in the 12th century, after King William the Lion had defeated Harald, Earl of Orkney and Caithness, and taken possession of these districts. Mr Skene supposes that they were descended from what he calls the aboriginal Gaelic inhabitants of Caithness. The Norse Sagas state that about the beginning of the twelfth century, "there lived in the Dolum of Katenesi (or Strathnaver) a man named Moddan, a noble and rich man", and that his sons were Magnus Orfi and Ottar, the Jarl of Thurso. The title of jarl was the same as the Gaelic maormor, and Mr Skene is of opinion that Moddan and his son Ottar were the Gaelic maormors of Caithness.

Sir Robert Gordon, in his History of Sutherland (p.302), from a similarity of badge and armorial bearings, accounts the clan Mackay a branch of the Forbeses, but this is by no means probable.

Mr Smibert is of opinion that the Mackays took their name from the old Catti of Caithness, and that the chiefs were of the Celto-Irish stock. This, however, is a very improbable supposition. Whatever may have been the origin of the chiefs, there is every reason to believe that the great body of the clan Mackay originally belonged to the early Celtic population of Scotland, although, from their proximity to the Norse immigrants, it is not at all improbable that latterly the two races became largely blended.

Alexander, who is said to have been the first of the family, aided in driving the Danes from the north. His son, Walter, chamberlain to Adam, bishop of Caithness, married that prelate's daughter, and had a son, Martin, who received from his maternal grandfather certain church lands in Strathnaver, being the first of the family who obtained possessions there. Martin had a son, Magnus or Manus, who fought at Bannockburn under Bruce, and had two sons, Morgan and Farquhar. From Morgan the clan derived their Gaelic name of Clan-wie-Worgan, or Morgan, and from Farquhar were descended the Clan-wic-farquhar in Strathnaver.

Donald, Morgan's son, married a daughter of Macneill of Gigha, who was named Iye, and had a son of the same name, in Gaelic Aodh, pronounced like Y or L.

Aodh had a son, another Donald, called Donald Macaodh, or Mackaoi, and it is from this son that the clan has acquired the patronymic of Mackay. He and his son were killed in the castle of Dingwall, by William, Earl of Sutherland, in 1395. The Mackays, however, were too weak to take revenge, and a reconciliation took place between Robert, the next earl, and Angus Mackay, the eldest of Donald's surviving sons, of whom there were other two, viz, Houcheon Dubh, and Neill Angus, the eldest son, married a sister of Malcolm Macleod of the Lewis, and had by her two sons, Angus Dubh, that is, dark-complexioned, and Roderick Gald, that is, Lowland. On their father's death, their uncle, Houcheon Dubh, became their tutor, and entered upon the management of their lands.

In 1411, when Donald, Lord of the Isles, in prosecution of his claim to the earldom of Ross, burst into Sutherland, he was attacked at Dingwall, by Angus Dubh, or Black Angus Mackay. The latter, however, was defeated and taken prisoner, and his brother, Roriegald, and many of his men were slain. After a short confinement, Angus was released by the Lord of the Isles, who, desirous of cultivating the alliance of so powerful a chief, gave him his daughter, Elizabeth, in marriage, and with her bestowed upon him many lands by charter in 1415. He was called Enneas-en-Imprissi, or "Angus the Absolute", from his great power. At this time, we are told, Angus Dubh could bring into the field 4000 fighting men.

Angus Dubh, with his four sons, was arrested at Inverness by James I. After a short confinement, Angus was pardoned and released with three of them, the eldest, Neill Mackay, being kept as a hostage for his good behaviour. Being confined in the Bass at the mouth of the Firth of Forth, he was ever after called Neill Wasse (or Bass) Mackay.

In 1437, Neill Wasse Mackay was released from confinement in the Bass, and on assuming the chiefship, he bestowed on John Aberigh, for his attention to his father, the lands of Lochnaver, in fee simple, which were long possessed by his posterity, that particular branch of the Mackays, called the Sliochd-ean-Aberigh, of an-Abrach. Neill Wasse, soon after his accession, ravaged Caithness, but died the same year, leaving two sons, Angus, and John Roy Mackay, the latter founder of another branch, called the Sliochd-ean-Roy.

Angus Mackay, the elder son, assisted the Keiths in invading Caithness in 1464, when they defeated the inhabitants of that district in an engagement at Blaretannie. He was burnt to death in the church of Tarbet in 1475, by the men of Ross, whom he had often molested. With a daughter, married to Sutherland of Dilred, he had three sons, viz, John Reawigh, meaning yellowish red, the colour of his hair; Y-Roy Mackay; and Neill Naverigh Mackay.

To revenge hi father'd death, John Reawigh Mackay, the eldest son, raised a large force, and assisted by Robert Sutherland, uncle to the Earl of Sutherland, invaded Strathoikell, and laid waste the lands of the Rosses in that district. A battle took place, 11th July 1487, at aldy-Charrish, when the Rosses were defeated, and their chief, Alexander Ross of Palnagowan, and seventeen other principal men of that clan were slain. The victors returned home with with a large booty.

It was by forays such as these that the great Highland chiefs, and even some of the Lowland nobles, contrived, in former times, to increase their stores and add to their possessions, and that Mackays about this time obtained a large accession to their lands by a circumstance narrated with Alexander Sutherland of Dilred, nephew of Y-Roy Mackay, the then chief.

In 1516, Y-Roy Mackay gave his bond of service to Adam Gordon of Aboyne, brother of the Earl of Huntly, who had become Earl of Sutherland, by marriage with Elizabeth, sister and heiress of the ninth earl, but died soon after. Donald, his youngest son, slain at Morinsh, was ancestor of a branch of the Mackays called the Slioehd-Donald-Mackay. John, the eldest son, had no sooner taken possession of his father's lands, than his uncle, Neill Naverigh Mackay and his two sons, assisted by a force furnished them but the Earl of Caithness, entered Strathnaver, and endevoured unsuccessfully to disposses him of his inheritance.

In 1517, in the absence of the Earl of Sutherland, who had wrested from John Mackay a portion of his lands, he and his brother Donald invaded Sutherland with a large force. But after several reverses, John Mackay submitted to the Earl of Sutherland in 1518, and granted him his bond of service. But such was his restless and turbulent disposition that he afterwards prevailed upon Alexander Sutherland, the bastard, who had married his sister and pretended a claim to the earldom, to raise the standard of insurrection against the earl. After this he again submitted to the earl, and a second time gave him his bond of service and manrent in 1522. He died in 1529, and was succeeded by his brother, Donald.

In 1539, Donald Mackay obtained restitution of the greater part of the family estates, which had been seized by the Sutherland Gordons, and in 1542 he was present in the engagement at Solway Moss. Soon after, he committed various ravages in Sutherland, but after a considerable time, became reconciled to the earl, to whom he again gave his bond of service and manrent on 8th April 1549. He died in 1550.

He was succeeded by his son, Y-Mackay, who, with the earl of Caithness, was perpetually at strife with the powerful hour of Sutherland, and so great was his power, and so extensive his spoliations, that in the first parliament of James VI (Dec. 1567), the lords of the articles were required to report, "By what means might Mackay be dantoned". He died in 1571, full of remorse, it is said, for the wickedness of his life.

His son, Houcheon, or Hugh, succeeded him when only eleven years old. In 1587, he joined the Earl of Caithness, when attacked by the Earl of Sutherland, although the latter was his superior. He was excluded from the temporary truce agreed to by the two earls in March of that year, and in the following year they came to a resolution to attack him together. Having received secret notice of their intention from the Earl of Caithness, he made his submission to the Earl of Sutherland, and ever after remained faithful to him.

Of the army raised by the Earl of Sutherland in 1601, to oppose the threatended invasion of his territories by the Earl of Caithness, the advance guard was commanded by Patrick Gordon of Gartay and Donald Mackay of Scourie, and the right wing by Hugh Mackay. Hugh Mackay died at Tongue, 11th September 1614, in his 55th year. He was connected with both the rival houses by marriage; his first wife being Lady Elizabeth Sinclair, second daughter of George, fourth Earl of Caithness and relict of Alexander Sutherland of Duffus; and his second, Lady Jane Gordon, eldest daughter of Alexander, eleventh Earl of Sutherland. The former lady was drowned, and left a daughter. By the latter, he had two sons, Sir Donald Mackay of Far, first Lord Reay, and John, who married in 1619, a daughter of James Sinclair of Murkle, by whom he had Hugh Mackay and other children. Sir Donald Mackay of Far, the elder son, was, by Charles I, created a peer of Scotland, by the title of Lord Reay, by patent, dated 20th June 1628, to him and his heirs male whatever. From him the land of the Mackays in Sutherland aquired the name of "Lord Reay's Country", which it has ever since retained.

On the breaking out of the civil wars, Lord Reay, with the Earl of Sutherland and others, joined the Covenanters on the north of the river Spey. He afterwards took arms in defence of Charles I, and in 1643 arrived from Denmark, with ships and arms, and a large sum of money, for the service of the king. He was in Newcastle in 1644, when that town was stormed by the Scots, and being made prisoner, was conveyed to Edinburgh tolbooth. He obtained his release after the battle of Kilsyth in August 1645, and embarked at Thurso in July 1648 for Denmark, where he died in February 1649. He married, first, in 1610, Barbara, eldest daughter of Kenneth, Lord Kintail, and had by her Y-Mackay, who dies in 1617; John, second Lord Reay, two other sons, the Hon. Robert Mackay Forbes and the Hon. Hugh Forbes. Of this marriage he procured a sentance of nullity, and then took to wife Elizabeth, daughter of Robert Thomson of Greenwich, but in 1637 was ordained to pay his second wife £2000 sterling for part maintenance, and £3000 sterling yearly during his non-adherence. By Elizabeth Thomson he had one daughter.

John, second Lord Reay, joined the royalists under the Earl of Glencairn in 1654, and was taken at Balveny and imprisoned. By his wife, a daughter of Donald Mackay of Scourie, he had three sons; 1. Donald, master of Reay, who predeceased his father,leaving by his wife Ann, daughter of Sir George Munro of Culcairn, a son, George, third Lord Reay; 2. The Hon Brigadier-General AEneas Mackay, who married Margaretta, Countess of Puchlor; and 3. The Hon. Colin Mackay. AEneas, the second son, was colonel of the Mackay Dutch regiment. His family settled at the Hague, where they obtained considerable possessions, and formed alliances with several noble families. Their representative, Berthold Baron Mackay, died 26th December 1854, at his chateau of Ophemert, in Guelderland, aged eighty-one. He married the Baroness Van Renasse Van Wilp, and his eldest son, the Baron AEneas Mackay, at one time chamberlain to the king of Holland, became heir to the peerage of Reay, after the present family.

George, third Lord Reay, F.R.S., took the oaths and his seat in parliament, 29th October 1700. In the rebellion of 1715, he raised his clan in support of the government. In 1719, when the Earls Marischal and Seaforth, and the Marquis of Tullibardine, with 300 Spaniards, landed in the Western Highlands, he did the same, and also in 1745. He died at Tongue, 21st March 1748. He was thrice married, and had by his first wife, one son, Donald, fourth Lord Reay.

Donald, fourth Lord Reay, succeeded his father in 1748, and died at Durness, 18th August 1761. He was twice married, and, with one daughter, the Hon Mrs Edgar, had two sons, George, fifth Lord Reay, who died at Rosebank, near Edinburgh, 27th February 1768, and Hugh, sixth lord. The fifth Lord Reay was also twice married, but had issue only with his second wife, a son, who died young, and three daughters. Hugh, his half-brother, who succeeded him, was for some years in a state of mental imbecility. He died at Skerray, 26th January 1797, unmarried, when the title devolved on Eric Mackay, son of the Hon. George Mackay of Skibo, third son of the third Lord Reay. He died at Tongue, June 25, 1782. By his wife, Anne, third daughter of Hon. Eric Sutherland, only son of the attainted Lord Duffus, he had five sons and four daughters. His eldest son, became seventh Lord Reay. Alexander, the next, an officer in the army, succeeded as eighth Lord Reay. Donald Hugh, the fourth son, a vice-admiral, died March 26, 1850. Patrick, the youngest, died an infant.

Eric, seventh Lord Reay, was, in 1806, elected one of the representative Scots peers. He died, unmarried, July 8, 1847, and was succeeded, as eighth Lord Reay, by his brother, Alexander, barrack-master at Malta, born in 1775. He married in 1809, Marion, daughter of Colonel Goll, military secretary to Warren Hastings, and relict of David Ross, Esq of Calcutta, eldest son of the Scottish judge Lord Ankerville; he had two sons and six daughters. He died in 1863, and was succeeded by his second son, Eric, who was born in 1813, George, the eldest son, having died in 1811.

The Mackays became very numerous in the northern counties, and the descent of their chiefs, in the male line, has continued unbroken from their first appearance in the north down to the present line. In the country of Sutherland, they multiplied greatly also, under other names, such as MacPhail, Polson, Bain, Nielson, &c. The names of Macie and MacGhie are also said to be derived from Mackay. The old family of MaGhie of Balmaghie, which for about 600 years possessed estates in Galloway, used the same arms as the chief of the Mackays. They continued in possession of their lands till 1786. Balmaghie means Mackay town. The name MacCrie is supposed to be a corruption of MacGhie.

At the time of the rebellion of 1745, the effective force of the Mackays was estimated at 800 men by President Forbes. It is said that in the last Sutherland fencibles, raised in 1793 and disbanded in 1797, there were 33 John Mackays in one company alone. In 1794 the Reay fencibles, 800 strong, were raised in a few weeks, in "Lord Reay's country", the residence of the clan Mackay. The names of no fewer than 700 of them had the prefix Mac.

With regard to the term Siol Mhorgan applied to the clan Mackay, it is right to state that Mr Robert Mackay of Thurso, the family historian, denies that as a clan they were ever known by that designation, which rests, he says, only on the affirmation of Sir Robert Gordon, without any authority. He adds: "There are, indeed, to this day, persons of the surname Morgan and Morganach, who are understood to be of the Mackays, but that the whole clan, at any period, went under that designation, is incorrect; and those of them who did so, were always few and of but small account. The name seems to be of Welsh origin; but how it obtained among the Mackays it is impossible now to say".

Of the branches of the clan Mackay, the family of Scourie is the most celebrated. They were descended from Donald Mackay of Scourie and Eriboll, elder son of Y Mackay III, chief of the clan from 1550 to 1571, by his first wife, a daughter of Hugh Macleod of Assynt.

Donald Mackay, by his wife, Euphemis, daughter of Huh Munro of Assynt in Ross, brother of the laird of Foulis, had three sons and four daughters. The sons were Hugh, Donald and William. Hugh, the eldest, succeeded his father, and by the Scots Estates was appointed colonel of the Reay countrymen. He married a daughter of James Corbet of Rheims, by whom he had five sons, William, Hector, Hugh, the celebrated General Mackay, commander of the government forces at the battle of Killiecrankie, James and Roderick. He had also three daughters, Barbara, married to John, Lord Reay; Elizabeth, to Hugh Munro of Eriboll, and Ann, to the Hon Capt. William Mackay of Kinloch. William and Hector, the two eldest sons, both unmarried, met with untimely deaths. In February 1688, the Earl of Caithness, whose wife was younger than himself, having conceived some jealousy against William, caused him to be seized at Dunnet, while on his way to Orkney, with a party of 30 persons. He was conveyed to Thurso, where he was immured in a dungeon, and after long confinement was sent home in an open boat, and died the day after. In August of the same year, his brother, Hector, accompanied by a servant, having gone to Aberdeenshire, on his way to Edinburgh, was waylaid and murdered by William Sinclair of Dunbeath and John Sinclair of Murkle, and their two servants. A complaint was immediately raised before the justiciary, at the instance of John, Earl of Sutherland, and the relatives of the deceased, against the Earl of Caithness and the two Sinclairs for these crimes. A counter complaint was brought by Caithness against the pursuers, for several alleged crimes from 1649 downwards, but a compromise took place between the parties.

General Mackay's only son, Hugh, major of his father's regiment, died at Cambray, in 1708, aged about 28. He left two sons, Hugh and Gabriel, and a daughter. Hugh died at Breda, a lieutenant-general in the Dutch service, and colonel of the Mackay Dutch regiment, which took its name from his father. He had an only daughter, the wife of lieutenant-general Prevost, of the British service, who, on the death of his father-in-law, without male issue, obtained the king's license to bear the name and arms of Mackay of Scourie in addition to his own, which his descendants in Holland still bear. Gabriel, the younger son, lieutenant-colonel of the Mackay regiment, died without issue. James, the next brother of General Mackay, a lieutenant-colonel in his regiment, was killed at Killiecrankie, and Roderick, the youngest, died in the East Indies, both unmarried.

The eldest branch of the Mackays was that of the Clan-Abrach, descended from John Aberigh Mackay, second son of Angus Dubh, who received the lands of Auchness, Breachat, and others, from his brother, Neill Wasse. Of this family was Robert Mackay, writer, Thurso, historian of the clan Mackay. According to this gentleman, John Aberigh, the first of this branch, gave his name to the district of Strathnaver. In the Gelic language, he says, the inhabitants of Strathnaver are called Naverigh, and that tribe the Sliochd-nan-Aberigh. John, their founder, some say, took his appellation of Aberigh from Lochaber, where he resided in his youth with some relatives, and from Strath-na-Aberich the transition is natural to Srath-n'-Averich. Neill Naverich, above mentioned, was so called from his having belonged to the Reay Country, that is, Strathnaver. The Clan-Abrach were the most numerous and powerful branch of the Mackays. They acted as wardens of their country, and never betrayed their trust.

The Bighouse branch were descendants of William Mackay of Far, younger half-brother of Donald Mackay of Scourie, by his second wife, Christian Sinclair, daughter of laird of Dun.

The Strathy branch sprung from John Mackay of Dilred and Strathy, brother of the first Lord Reay, and son of Hugh Mackay of Far, by his wife, Lady Jane Gordon, eldest daughter of Alexander, Earl of Sutherland.

The Melness branch came from the Hon. Colonel AEneas Mackay, second son of the first Lord Reay, by his first wife, the Hon Barbara Mackenzie, daughter of Lord Kintail.

The Kinloch branch descended from the Hon. Captain William Mackay, and the Sandwood branch from the Hon. Charles Mackay, sons of the first Lord Reay by his last wife, Marjory Sinclair, daughter of Francis Sinclair of Stircoke.

The founder of the Holland branch of the Mackays, General Hugh Mackay, prior to 1680, when a colonel in the Dutch service, and having no prospect of leaving Holland, wrote for some near relatives to go over and settle in that country. Amongst those were his brother James, and his nephews, AEneas and Robert, sons of the first Lord Reay. The former he took into his own regiment, in which, in a few years, he became lieutenant-colonel. The latter he sent to school at Utrecht for a short time, and afterwards obtained commissions for them in his own regiment. In the beginning of 1687, several British officers in the Dutch service were recalled to England by King James, and amongst others was AEneas Mackay, then a captain. On his arrival in London, the King made him some favourable proposition to enter his service, which he declined, and, in consequence, when he reached Scotland, he was ordered to be apprehended as a spy. He had been imprisoned nearly seven months in Edinburgh Castle, when the Prince of Orange landed at Torbay, and he was liberated upon granting his personal bond to appear before the privy council when called upon, under a penalty of £500 sterling. The Dutch Mackays married among the nobility of Holland, and one of the families of that branch held the title of baron.

Another account of the clan

BADGE: Bealnidh (Sarothamnus scorparius) broom.
PIBROCH: Brattach bhan Clan Aoidh and Donald Duaghal Mhic Aoidh.
SLOGAN: Bratach Bhàn Chlann Aoidh.

ONE of the finest songs by that fine song writer and musician, Dr. John Park, deals in an allusive way with an episode characteristic of the past of the far north-west of Scotland, in the region of Cape Wrath, which was the ancient country of the warlike Clan MacKay.

"This howling wind o?er sea and sky
Careers wi? dule and sorrow,
And many a woeful heart and eye
Shall weep the coming morrow;
But yet I dream amid this tide
So furious, wild, and wintry,
Of the fairest eyes on any side
Of the Lord Reay?s country.

Now lulls the gale, but upward fly
The roaring surges round us;
Nor e?er could reach a drowning cry
To the wild shores that bound us;
Where soon for us the dirge may rise
From caves, the sea-sprites? chantry
Whose sound now dims the bluest eyes
In the Lord Reay?s country.

The moon shines out Oh! pale and fair
Is she whose lamp is burning,
Through lonely night and stormy air,
To welcome my returning,
And see, how dearly yonder lies
The well-known bay?s old entry,
Where our sail shall greet the fairest eyes,
In the Lord Reay?s country."

The district anciently occupied by the Clan MacKay, and known from the name of its chief as the Lord Reay?s country, extended along some two-thirds of the broken north coast of Scotland, from Reay itself on Sandside Bay, some ten miles west of Thurso, along the wild loch. indented coast to Cape Wrath, and as far southward as Edrachills Bay on the West Coast. It is a pathetic fact that this great stretch of country is no longer in possession of its ancient owners; but the story of how the MacKays came into possession of Strathnaver, of how they held it through the stormy middle centuries, and how at last it passed out of their hands, remains one of the most interesting in the Highlands.

On the east the territory of the MacKays marched with that of the Sinclairs and the Gunns, while on the south it marched with that of the MacLeods and the Murrays of Sutherland, and naturally much of the story is of feud and friendship with these neighbouring clans.

According to Skene in his Highlanders, "there are few clans whose true origin is more uncertain than that of the MacKays." But while this origin cannot be altogether definitely ascertained, tradition carries it back to the first Gaelic inhabitants of the country. The Norwegian sagas declare the ancestor of the race to have been a jarl, which is probably a Norse translation of the Celtic Maormor, or governor of a province. From the similarity of badge and armorial bearings, some writers have counted the clan a branch of the Forbeses. According to Sir Robert Gordon,. the first of the MacKays who obtained possessions in Strathnaver was named Martin. This Martin, he says, " wes slain at Keanloch-Eylk in Lochaber, and had a son called Magnus. Magnus died in Strathnaver, leaving two sons, Morgan and Farquhar. From this Morgan the whole of MacKay is generally called Clan-vic-Morgan. From Farquhar the Clan-vic-Farquhar in Strathnaver are descended." Nisbet in his Heraldry derives the MacKays from Alexander, a younger son of Ochonochar, the ancestor of the Forbeses, who came from Ireland about the end, of. the twelfth century; and this theory is followed by Robert MacKay, historian of the Clan, who says the ancestor of the MacKays was Alexander, who lived between 1180 and 1222; When King William the Lion, at the end of the twelfth century, marched northward to repel the Norse invaders, he is said to have had with him one body of men from the province of Moray under Hugh Freskin, ancestor of the Murrays of Sutherland, and another body from Galloway under Alexander, ancestor of the MacKays. Skene believes the progenitors of the clan to have been the old Gaelic Maormors of Caithness.

In any case from an early period the MacKays played a striking part in Scottish history. Magnus, the great-grandson of Alexander, fought on the side of Robert the Bruce at Bannockburn. It was from Morgan, the son of this Magnus, that the clan took its appellation of Siol Mhorgain, the race of Morgan. Donald, the son of Morgan, married the daughter of MacNeil of Gigha on the Kintyre coast, and from the son of this pair, named Aodh, the clan derives its patronymic of MacAodh, or MacKay. The clan seems rapidly to have become very powerful, and from an early date to have been engaged in feuds with its neighbours. In 1395, at Dingwall, in the course of one of these feuds, the Earl of Sutherland killed the MacKay chief and his son with his own hand; and a few years later, in the course of a family quarrel with the MacLeods of Lewis, a bloody battle was fought in Strathoykell on the marches of Ross and Sutherland, from which, it is said, only one solitary Lewis man escaped, seriously wounded, to tell the tale in his native island.

In 1411 the chief, Angus Dubh, was able to muster no fewer than 4,000 men to oppose Donald of the Isles in his campaign to seize the earldom of Ross, which ended at the battle of Harlaw. MacKay was bold enough to face Donald single-handed at Dingwall, but was defeated and taken prisoner. After a short time, however, he was released, and the Lord of the Isles gave him his daughter Elizabeth in marriage, with certain lands by way of tocher. In the charter of these lands he is called " Angus Eyg de Strathnaver."

This alliance with the Lord of the Isles proved disastrous to MacKay, for when, to curb the disturbances raised by the island prince, King James I. marched into the north, he arrested Angus MacKay and his four sons, and only set the Chief free on condition that one son became a hostage for his father.

There was trouble again when Thomas, one of the MacKays, for an act of outrage and sacrilege, was outlawed by the king, and his lands in Sutherland were offered to any person bold enough to kill or capture him. With the help of MacKay?s own brothers, Angus Murray of Cubin seized the outlaw and executed him; but when Murray came further, at the instignation of the Earl of Sutherland, to invade Strathnaver, his force was defeated, and he and the two MacKays who had helped him were slain. This was the battle of Druim na cuip, at the top of a pass near Ben Loyal. The leader of the MacKays was young lain Aberach, a son of Angus MacKay by his second wife, a Macdonald of Keppoch in Lochaber. From him descended the Aberach MacKays. After the fight old Angus MacKay had himself carried to the field to view his son?s victory, when a lurking Moray man shot him with an arrow.

Later, in 1437, when the hostage Neil MacKay returned from his captivity on the Bass, the MacKays invaded Caithness, defeated the Sinclairs, and plundered the country. A later feud among the MacKays of Strathnaver, the Earls of Sutherland and Caithness, and the Gunns, brought about a pitched battle in 1517 at Torran Dubh. in which hundreds of men on both sides were slain and the MacKays were routed. After several further struggles the MacKay chief made his peace with the Earl of Sutherland in 1522. Twenty years later Donald MacKay again invaded Sutherland, but was captured and imprisoned, and in 1549 gave his bond of service and manrent to the Earl.

These were only a few of the feuds, excursions, and alarms in which the MacKays were engaged for 150 years, and something of their warlike temper may be guessed from the fact that they fought no fewer than ten pitched battles, between that of Tuttumtarmhich in 1406 and Garuarrai in 1555. Part of the reason for this turbulence of the MacKay chiefs is probably to be found in the fact that they were among the last in Scotland to hold their lands as allodial or entirely independent territory. They did not come under the feudal system and accept a charter to hold their lands of the King till 1499.

Among notable events in the story of that time Aodh or Hugh MacKay fell at Flodden with James IV., and his second son and successor Donald MacKay, "a great general and a wise and political gentleman," took part in the battle of Solway Moss, and, returning to Edinburgh with James V. three days after the conflict, had certain fortified lands bestowed upon him by the King. In the feuds of the days of Queen Mary and James VI. between the Earls of Caithness and Sutherland, the MacKays took an active part. One day in 1586 while returning from a raid on the Macleods of Assynt the MacKays found themselves pursued by the Sutherland men, who, with the Sinclairs, had set out to harry the Gunns. Just before dawn, they met the Gunns and the two clans joining in onset first overthrew the Sinclairs and then drove off the Sutherland men, on the field of Aultgawn.

Amid such exploits, Aodh, the son of Donald, mentioned above, was imprisoned for a time in Edinburgh Castle because of his turbulence, but his son, another Hugh, married first Lady Elizabeth Sinclair, daughter of the fourth Earl of Caithness, and secondly Lady Jean Gordon, daughter of the fifteenth Earl of Sutherland, and lived in prodigal fashion on his ancestral estates.

The MacKay chiefs were zealous supporters of the Reformation, and in the beginning of the seventeenth century the chief, Donald MacKay of Far, son of the above Hugh, raised 3,000 men, mostly of his own clan, and sent half of them, under the command of Colonel Robert Munro, to the help of the Protestant King of Bohemia. On the death, almost immediately, of that monarch, the company entered the service of Gustavus of Sweden, and its exploits and famous deeds of valour were made the subject of a notable book, Munro?s Expedition with the Scots? Regiment, the Mackeyes, published in 1637. The chief himself, Donald MacKay, after some trouble with the Sutherland family at home, carried a reinforcement to the regiment in Germany, and won a high reputation there, while his territory at home enjoyed an unwonted period of repose. After the death of Gustavus, MacKay returned to this country, where, as a reward for his loyal services to Charles I., he was first of all created a Baronet of Nova Scotia in 1627, then raised to the peerage by the title of Lord Reay in 1628. The King also gave him a patent, creating him Earl of Strathnaver, but the title was never completed, owing to the Civil War and the refusal of Parliament to homologate the creation. Unfortunately the MacKay Chief gained his honours at considerable cost, for the enterprise of raising the company which he sent abroad, and the losses which be sustained in support of Charles I., plunged him into money difficulties, which in the end forced the family to part with all its great territories in the North.

Lord Reay himself was one of those excepted from pardon in the treaty between the Covenanters and the King, and was forced to retire to Denmark, where he died in 1649. His wife was the daughter of Lord Kintail, and their son married a daughter of Lieutenant-General Hugh MacKay of Scourie, the famous leader who commanded the troops of William of Orange against the Highland Jacobites under Viscount Dundee at Killiecrankie in

1689.

General MacKay was a sterling soldier if not a brilliant general, and his overthrow at Killiecrankie was perhaps as much the result of the rawness of the levies he commanded as of his own rashness in attempting an almost impossible task. The soundness of his ideas as to the best means of pacifying the Highlands may be judged from the fact that, after well nigh insuperable difficulties, he found the means, by private enterprise, of erecting a fort at Inverlochy, which, in honour of the King, he named Fort-William, and which is represented by the town of that name to the present day. And it was owing to MacKay?s activity in the months which followed that the efforts of the Jacobite generals, Buchan and Cannon, were again and again rendered futile. By sheer ability he made himself military master of the Highlands, and did so with the least possible bloodshed and without sullying his success by vindictive measures of retaliation. He fell at the battle of Steinkirk in 1692.

During Mar?s rebellion in 1715 the MacKays took arms for George I., kept the castle and town of Inverness from capture, and held the Jacobite clans of the North in check. Again, in 1745, there were 800 of them under arms on the side of the Government. Still later, in 1795, the Reay fencible regiment, or MacKay Highlanders, were embodied, and on being sent to Ireland, distinguished themselves by a gallant defeat of the rebels at the Hill of Tara.

It was in the time of the seventh baron, Sir Eric MacKay, that a serious change came over the fortunes of the family. During his sail round the coasts of Scotland in the yacht of the Lighthouse Commissioners in 1814, Sir Walter Scott paid a visit to Cape Wrath, where the Commissioners had to fix the site for a lighthouse. It was the day when sheep-farming was being introduced to the Highlands, and in the diary of his voyage Scott makes an interesting entry. " Lord Reay?s estate," he says, " containing 150,000 acres, and measuring eighty miles by sixty, was, before commencement of the last leases, rented at £1,200 a year. It is now worth £5,000, and Mr. Anderson says he may let it this ensuing year (when the leases expire) for about £15,000. But then he must resolve to part with his people, for these rents can only be given upon the supposition that sheep are generally to be introduced on the property. In an economical, and perhaps in a political point of view, it might be best that every part of a country were dedicated to that sort of occupation for which nature has best fitted it. But to effect this reform in the present instance, Lord Reay must turn out several hundred families who have lived under him and his fathers for many generations, and the swords of whose fathers probably won the lands from which he is now expelling them. He is a good-natured man, I suppose, for Mr. A. says he is hesitating whether he shall not take a more moderate rise (£7,000 or £8,000), and keep his Highland tenantry. This last war (before the short peace), he levied a fine fencible corps (the Reay fencibles), and might have doubled their number. Wealth is no doubt strength in a country, while all is quiet and governed by law, but on any altercation or internal commotion, it ceases to be strength, and is only the means of tempting the strong to plunder the possessors. Much may be said on both sides."

The Reay estates, however, as has been already mentioned, were in difficulties, and in the upshot, Eric, seventh Lord Reay, disposed of the whole property to the Earl of Sutherland, by whom were carried out the great "Sutherland clearances," of which so much has been said and written since.

On the death of this Lord Reay the title and chiefship reverted to his cousin, Eneas MacKay, a descendant of the second baron. That second Baron?s second son Eneas had followed the first baron?s example, carried his sword to the Continent, and become a Brigadier-General and Colonel-proprietor of the MacKay regiment in Holland. His son Donald succeeded him in command of the regiment, and fell at the siege of Tournay in 1745. Each generation had married a daughter of a noble house of the Netherlands, and the family had attained the title of Baron MacKay d?Ophemert. Among his other honours in the Netherlands, Baron MacKay was Minister of State, Vice-President of the Privy Council, and Grand Cross of the Netherland Lion. His wife was a daughter of Baron Fagel, also a Privy Councillor. The new Lord Reay, who remained a Dutch subject, died in 1876, and was succeeded by his son Sir Donald James, the late peer.

Lord Reay was naturalised as a British subject in 1877, and played a highly distinguished part in the affairs of this country. Among his honours he was a Knight of the Thistle, G.C.S.I., G.C.I.E., LL.D., D.Litt., and a Privy Councillor. He was Lord-Lieutenant of Roxburghshire, and Rector of St. Andrews University. He was also Governor of Bombay from 1885 to 1890, Under Secretary for India from 1894 to 1895, and Chairman of the London School Board from 1897 to 1904. He was President of the Royal Asiatic Society, and of University College, London, and was the first President of the British Academy. Besides Lady Reay?s seat of Carolside at Earlston in Berwickshire, be retained Ophemert in the Netherlands; but his chief interest throughout lay in this country, and his warmest pride was in the fact that he was Chief of the ancient and honourable Clan MacKay.

Not least famous of the name in the eighteenth century was the poet, Rob Don MacKay. Born in the year before Sheriffmuir, he earned his living as herd, game-keeper, and boatman, and was a member of the Reay Fencibles from 1759 till 1767. His poems are chiefly satires and elegies.

In modern times the Clan has led the way in a movement which promises, more than anything else, to perpetuate the old clan spirit and comradeship. On 21st July, 1806, there was instituted a " M?Kays Society," which was probably the first genuine clan organisation ever formed in the Lowlands. Its purpose was "to raise a fund for the mutual help of each of us in the time of afflictive dispensations," and as "a happy means of establishing unity and good order amongst us." That Society carried on its useful work for fifty years. The present Clan MacKay Society was founded in 1888. It carries on a highly useful benevolent and educational work, has a fund of over £1,600, and counts its influential membership in every part of the world.

Septs of Clam MacKay: Bain, Bayne, MacCay, MacCrie, Macghee, Macghie, Mackee, Mackie, MacPhail, Macquey, Macquoid, Macvail, Neilson, Paul, Polson, Williamson.






Posted by: wizardofowls 16-May-2004, 09:21 AM
WOW!

Tapadh leat, a Chatrìona!
Thanks Catriona!

That was alot of info! I appreciate you locating it for me!
Now, I've got to print it all out so I can take my time and enjoy reading all about my clan! smile.gif

Tapadh leat a-rithist!
Thanks again!

Posted by: Catriona 16-May-2004, 03:38 PM
I'm glad you find it interesting! There appears to be more on the Mackays on electricscotland - but as I've said, you should verify what is posted with at least one other, indpendent source! Another good Scottish site is www.rampantscotland.com

BTW I have never seen my name spelled with an 'H'.... cool.gif

Posted by: wizardofowls 16-May-2004, 03:46 PM
Hallo a Chatrìona!

When greeting someone in Scottish Gaelic, in most cases (but not all), an h is inserted after the initial consonant. Hence from Catrìona to Chatrìona. (This changes the hard C sound to the softer Ch found at the end of loch.)

In a man's name, an additional i is inserted before the final consonant in the name. For instance, if someone's name was Seumas (that's the Gaelic for James, pronounced SHAY-mus), you would greet him as Hallo a Sheumais! Seumas, when spelt this way, is pronounced HAY-mish which is where the name Hamish comes from!

Posted by: Catriona 17-May-2004, 01:42 AM
Yes, I understand the origins of Scots Gaelic names - after all, I bear one! My granny and grand-dad had the Gaelic as their first language, and my father and his siblings grew up in a Gaelic speaking household.

So, I know the usual things, greetings, farewells, names... But I have truly never seen my Gaelic name written with an 'h'... and I am named for my Granny! The correct pronounciation of my name is Kuh tree oh na (with the emphasis on the second syllable).

Personally, I have no real interest in the Gaelic... My interests tend more towards the everyday languages of Scotland, ie Lallans/Auld Scots/the Doric. I am passionate about ensuring that they do not die out in Scotland cool.gif As the Gaelic is only spoken by 60,000 native Scots, I also believe that more attention should be given to Lallans etc... after all, there are many more of us speaking with those languages (And I do know that there are those that dispute whether or not Scots/Lallans/Doric can be called languages rather than dialects, but I obviously believe the former is the case!)

Posted by: Elspeth 17-May-2004, 07:44 AM
How prevelent is Lallans? Are signs written in both English and Lallans, etc? Is it used in the schools? And is it spoken all over Scotland, or only in the lowlands? I know I read a little about it, but that was a while ago. I have a Scots/English dictionary which states the Scots language shares its beginnings with Northumbrian English. This is where my English ancestors are from. Was their speech similiar to Lallans?

I am curious about Lallans. Maybe because I have some hope of understanding it. biggrin.gif Gaelic will forever be beyond me. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Catriona 17-May-2004, 08:05 AM

Elspeth:
No, I'm afraid that road signs etc do not have dual language - for in many cases, the names are the same, just the pronounciation that is different.

There aren't even dual language English/Gaelic signs throughout Scotland - although there are plenty in the Highlands and beyond. cool.gif

Lallans is really the vernacular language of the lowlands (and in the case of Doric, the areas around Aberdeenshire). It is the language that most people spoke, but were forced to leave at home when they got into school. No Lallans pronounciation or spelling of words.

I speak English (of course): but with friends a lot of Lallans words and expressions creep into our speech patterns. I prefer to think that Scots will be able to talk and write in 'wur ain leid' (our own language) in the future!

The resurgence of Lallans as a 'real' language has been happening steadily over the past 30 or so years. One of the first and most eloquent proponents of Lallans was Hugh MacDairmid, the famous Scottish poet and writer. Here's a little background on MacDairmid http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~crumey/hugh_macdiarmid.html

The accents in Northumbria and Newcastle is very similar to lowland Scots - by that, I mean certain intonations.... Did you ever hear the following explanation of the Geordie (native of Newcastle) 'Geordies are Scots with no brains'... cool.gif (although it's not usually written as politely as I've just done!)

This topic has been taken totally off-topic now, and I apologise for that!

If anyone has any questions re 'Wur ain Leid', I'd be happy to answer over in the Scotland forum.




Posted by: Lyra Luminara 30-May-2004, 01:30 PM
I think I need some extreme help. I've spoken to grandparents and even have an account on ancestry.com but I've found very little. My grandmother doesn't even know/ or ever knew who her great-grandparents were, and very little about her grandparents for that matter. Simply no family record was ever kept in bibles or whatever it may be. I do know that the area my family is from in England (Ely, Cambridge) is a big Anglo-Saxon area...in which the saxons invaded years ago. I'm really curious to find out if pieces of my family were from celtic tribes, or from the invading saxons, or maybe both.

Posted by: Catriona 30-May-2004, 04:14 PM
Hello there!

I'm afraid there is no quick fix in genealogy. You have to start with your generation, your parents and their parents and so on.... back to the first immigrant of your present country (sorry, I'm not sure where that is!). Only then, via perhaps passenger lists and immigration records will you be able to ascertain exactly where your family comes from. With that information, you may be able to access parish records this side of the pond.

Ely is a very old town. Christianity has had deep roots there since very early times in the UK. Being in the South East of England, it was an area that was invaded/raided by many, the Norsemen, the Angles, the Jutes, the Saxons (to name a few).

Records of common men (ie not nobility or big landowners) is a fairly recent thing - from about 1500+. sooooo, finding out exactly what makes up your heritage may be beyond any records so far found.

I lived near Ely for a couple of years - although I don't know the town all that well, I do know it!

English records are better than Scots (my nationality), simply because many of our records were destroyed by various forays north by the English!

Posted by: Lyra Luminara 30-May-2004, 09:15 PM
forgive my english blood. haha. I was actually researching some surnames in my family today and discovered that my own last name is Scottish, and down the maternal line of surnames, all are Irish or English, and the English names claim that those families were there before the Norman invasions in 1066...hmmm.

See, I'm *trying* to trace my maternal line, but it's ccrazy hard because it's hard to find out maiden names with women and marriage records and what not. bahh.

Posted by: Catriona 31-May-2004, 02:19 AM
'forgive my English blood'??????? unsure.gif

Why on earth apologise for something that is part of you. cool.gif Be proud to have English ancestry, remember - without the English, you'd probably be speaking French or Dutch in the USA! The British Empire may have a lot to answer for... but without those ancestors: Scots, English, Irish and Welsh.... most of the great discoveries of the past would not have been made; places like Canada, Australia and the USA would not have been the great countries they have become.

One thing to remember: whenever you see genealogies that purport to be able to trace family history back pre 1600 or 1500s.... be VERY wary... I wish I had a pound for every post I've seen on the net saying 'I am able to trace my ancestry back to William the Conqueror or William Wallace etc....

Posted by: Lyra Luminara 01-Jun-2004, 02:10 PM
hah yea, it's crazy.

Yea, the english so have a lot to answer for, but I still am proud.

Posted by: CelticRose 01-Jun-2004, 03:32 PM
Lyra! I have mostly English ancestry in me too. I don't feel the need to apologize. I am proud of it. I also have Italian ancestry. There have been and still are not so good of folks there either. Look at Mussellini and all the mafia movies made about Italians! But I don't feel the need to apologize. I didn't personally participate in their deeds. All races and nationalties have good and not so good people! That is just the way of the world! Be proud of who you are and do not apologize for the deeds of your ancestors! We just be the good persons we can be.

have fun with your genealogy search! I have with mine, but keep hitting roadblocks.....still. The women in this country in 19th century were considered unimportant and a lot of them not even recorded, let alone their ancestors........so sad! It makes it very frustrating to research.

Posted by: blackmagikwolf 01-Jul-2004, 01:00 PM
Im new to this site and was just wondering if any of you had heard of the surname of Cochrain in all your studys...I have been researching my family history because i know my grand father 6 gens back came from ireland and in my studies i have also found that Gen. Sam Houstons fathers family was also from ireland and scotland.I am related to G Sam Houston also.If any one can help me research more please let me know thank you.
Dottie

Posted by: Catriona 02-Jul-2004, 06:28 AM
That sounds like a variation of the name Cochrane, which is a name claimed by both Scotland and Ireland.

The Irish Cochranes appear to have been most numerous in Antrim/Armargh/Cavan/Donegal and County Down.

The Scots Cochranes appeared to be concentrated in Renfrew.

I'm afraid there is no short cut to know which branch you made be descended from, but you appear to have done half the job already, so it shouldn't be too difficult for you.

Good luck with your research!


Posted by: ladymagikwolf 02-Jul-2004, 07:41 PM
Thank you so much you gave me more info than you know because the cochrane's are from both ireland and scotland...so im a product of both places..lol but that really gives me lots to go on..again thank you...

Blessed Be
Dottie

Posted by: Catriona 03-Jul-2004, 06:49 AM
Two good Scots sites that you might find interesting are
www.electricscotland.com and
www.rampantscotland.com

Both of them have a lot of information on Scottish clans - and both (I think, but haven't checked) also have info on Irish family names, too.

A word of caution: the owner of Electric Scotland freely admits that he doesn't verify information posted by others - so make sure you check anything you find on there against at least 2 other sources!

Posted by: ladymagikwolf 03-Jul-2004, 09:23 AM
again thank you very much i will be sure to check out anything i find on the one...i am really glad my husband found this site you guys seem really nice and actually do discuss stuff.....plus theres many interesting things here..

Blessed Be Dottie

Posted by: A Shrule Egan 03-Jul-2004, 11:03 PM
QUOTE (ladymagikwolf @ 03-Jul-2004, 11:23 AM)
again thank you very much i will be sure to check out anything i find on the one...i am really glad my husband found this site you guys seem really nice and actually do discuss stuff.....plus theres many interesting things here..

Blessed Be Dottie

Dottie, go to the last post on this thread and it gives a list of sites that may help you find what you need to know. http://www.celticradio.net/php/forums/index.php?showtopic=2524 .

Also, it will be time consuming but try to read through all the genealogy threads that we have posted. You can pick up some good tips on doing your research and that may save you a lot of time and headaches. Those who have been posting on this thread, know what you are going through right now. If you get stuck, ask a question and someone may be able to steer you in the right direction.

Happy hunting!!

Posted by: Annabelle 12-Jul-2004, 08:26 AM
It would be helpful to others if you have a clan site here to list the surnames under each clan. Just a suggestion.

A

Posted by: Gordon 12-Jul-2004, 03:05 PM
Surnames really don't reveal much in the way of ancestry. Such holds especially true for an immigrant to the United States back when Ellis Island was a primary stop before taking the oath of citizenship, etc. Back then, if the registering person had trouble with an immigrants name, such as spelling, they tended to shorten it for the paperwork and from that time forward, the immigrant went by the new surname. I'm sure nowadays that has changed but, it has had an effect already and the way the world is today being more accessible for moving from one country to another, etc., it has created surnames which in time will be able to be considered of other nationalities once those surnames are carried for many generations in that country. Ack, I'm even confusing myself now. laugh.gif


Posted by: Camchak 12-Jul-2004, 09:07 PM
I found the site that Gordon sent me, to be very helpful in my case, perhaps it will help others! http://www.tartans.com/

Posted by: CelticRose 13-Jul-2004, 05:08 PM
QUOTE (Gordon @ 12-Jul-2004, 04:05 PM)
Surnames really don't reveal much in the way of ancestry. Such holds especially true for an immigrant to the United States back when Ellis Island was a primary stop before taking the oath of citizenship, etc. Back then, if the registering person had trouble with an immigrants name, such as spelling, they tended to shorten it for the paperwork and from that time forward, the immigrant went by the new surname. I'm sure nowadays that has changed but, it has had an effect already and the way the world is today being more accessible for moving from one country to another, etc., it has created surnames which in time will be able to be considered of other nationalities once those surnames are carried for many generations in that country. Ack, I'm even confusing myself now. laugh.gif


Gordon! Thank you very much for mentioning this. I came across this with my Italian side of the family. They had a very long Italian surname when they came over to Ellis Island back in the 20th century even. Well their name got shortened. I just wonder how accurate all the surnames of my ancestors who came over from Great Britian are? That has been my concern in my research.



Posted by: Gordon 13-Jul-2004, 07:33 PM
QUOTE (CelticRose @ 13-Jul-2004, 06:08 PM)
Gordon! Thank you very much for mentioning this. I came across this with my Italian side of the family. They had a very long Italian surname when they came over to Ellis Island back in the 20th century even. Well their name got shortened. I just wonder how accurate all the surnames of my ancestors who came over from Great Britian are? That has been my concern in my research.

Celticrose,
No thanks needed. I felt it was something worth pointing out in hopes that it may help those in the U.S., or even abroad for that matter, when they hit roadblocks. I know that I almost ended my search a few times when I hit this type of roadblock. It takes more patience to investigate it but, is well worth the extra effort since it may opens lines that beforehand seemed to be unrelated.

Posted by: CelticRose 14-Jul-2004, 01:47 PM
Thanks again, Gordon! That really helps me to be more aggressive in my search.

Posted by: Liriel Baenre Do'Urden 15-Jul-2004, 11:49 AM
My maternal grandmother has researched my grandfather's ancestory back to a Sir Francis Brooke from Wales. He came over on a ship right after the Mayflower hit in Plymouth.

Any further back then that would of course require a trip to England to one of the libraries where the birth, death and marriages records are kept for knights.

I know when my children finally graduate from high school I will be traveling to several different locations for research purposes.

Posted by: Aragorn 15-Jul-2004, 01:10 PM
I would be pretty interested in finding out more about my ancestry, On my father's side of the family we have a Code of Arms and on my mother's side of the family we have a castle in the black forest in Germany. So, it sounds like we have a very colorful history. I need to learn more.

Posted by: Lyra Luminara 18-Jul-2004, 07:35 PM
Oooo a castle. You must be of nobel blood. haha. but foreal though that's really awesome I wish I could find out some cool stuff but I've yet again given up on my searches

Posted by: Camchak 18-Jul-2004, 10:00 PM
Never give up or give in!

Posted by: celticwoodsman 14-Sep-2004, 09:57 AM
So with the surname Brady, it is an Irish surname, but at the same time members of my family are members of McDonald of the Isles, so I know that means that I am celtic for lack of better words....but if a person asks if I am Scottish or Irish, I usually said with a smile "both" I guess with all this information I am right

Posted by: Balachasen 02-Oct-2004, 09:45 AM
Maideann mhath,

Baring in mind we all have about a million ancestors if we go back 25 generations,
I think researching genealogy is important to get a picture of your recent ancestors, and the bulk of your ancestors.....
the funny thing is that your great-great grandmother could have been Japanese for all you know, yet by the time intermarriage has occured over 5 or so generations, her characteristics will likely be consumed by your recent ancestors.....
Instinct is always a useful rule of thumb when dealing with ancestry - it can lead you better than conventional genealogy at times.

Slainte mhath,
Mar sin leibh an drasda

Balachasen

Posted by: Anharyd 11-Oct-2004, 03:08 PM
To almost everyone coming to America, it was The Land Of Beginning Again. For many this meant a total new persona, as perhaps they were wanted in the old country, were "transported" as criminals, sometimes into the "white slavery" of indentured servants (especially in the South). As a result, many changed their names entirely, many names were changed for them by immigration officials who heard and spelled them phonetically. My friend's father for instance was Philip Hadjipopoulous. The immigration officer said " Haji wha?? " Then stated," From now on your Philips -Phil Philips". And so it has been . I don't know if there are any Greeks legitimately named Philips, but that has been their surname ever since. My grandmother's family name was Younger (later changed to Young), but she is mostly Mic Mac Indian (Algonquian Nation) and her husband was a Scot from Clyde. My father's name was Brown in England, but was origionally Braun in Germany. But those Brauns were origially from Denmark! And who knows but what they came from elsewhere before that? And who knows where the Algonquian Indians came from. Indian tribes can be so different across the nation that I think their ancestors probably cam from several different places, just as we Americans since the 1500s do. The only way I know of to be sure what nationality or racial makeup you are is to have a modern blood test done. With today's breakdowns of DNA, they can tell pretty much exactly what your heritage is. For instance, they know that the Apache Indians are related to the Athapascans of Canada and Alaska, while the Navaho are related to the Indians of Peru! Me? I'm just another of your average American Mutts... Scottish, Englaish Irish, Danish, French and Mic Mac Indian. Vive la Differance! thumbs_up.gif

Posted by: Anharyd 11-Oct-2004, 03:19 PM
For those researching United Kingdom Ancestry (Ireland, Scotland, Britain, Welsh). which often leads back to German, Scandinavian , Russian, etc., a wonderful web site is Genes Reunited. com. Try it free, then if you like it, it's only about $14.00 a YEAR. unlike ripsoffs such as Ancestry. Com. I enjoy it thouroughly and have learned much from it, though I still cannot find my grandfather William MacLachlan, born in Paisley in about 1870. Who knows! Maybe he was hiding out and changed his name. Black sheep perhaps??

Posted by: cori 18-Oct-2004, 01:14 PM
QUESTION!!!!

My surname is Thompson and I have been able to trace my father's family back to the mid- 1800's when they came over from Ireland, but I can't get any further. Though it has no real effect on the price of a dozen eggs, I would love to know if there's a way to trace further.

My mother's family name is Reynolds. My grandfather has told me that this is an Irish name. He has also told me that it is English, Scottish and eleventy-twelve other origins. smile.gif I don't suppose it denotes Irish in our case, as my great-great-grandparents came from Holland and England. As with my father's family, I can't get further than the port they sailed from.


Posted by: CelticRose 18-Oct-2004, 04:31 PM
Anharyd! could you please give us the exact website for the genes reunited? I found several on the internet. the one I found was this one.

http://www.gendir.com

Is this the one you are talking about. If it is good, I would like to add it to the thread, Best of websites. let me know. smile.gif

Posted by: Roberto Phoenix 01-Aug-2006, 10:39 PM
I've managed to get a bit of free info by just typing the name into various search engines. My natural dad was a Broemer, decended from Casper Broemer, a gardener or blacksmith in Weimer, Germany (1841). The name Broemer has some Celtic influnce to it. In the German language it translate as berry picker and in the Gaelic it is swamp dweller. Lucky me. However it seems that Broemer men have a tendency to marry UK women. My 3x great grandmother was a "Solomon" from Cornwall, the 2x grandmother was Harriette Kelly daughter of Thomas and Mary (Van Stone) Kelly and great grandmother was a Laity, also a Cornish name. My Italian side, from my mother I have traced back to the 1600's (erspamer and Constantini).

And yes, I married a red headed German Irish lass before I even knew my family history-Go figure. So keep plugging away-somewhere someone will put the info in a "free space"

Posted by: Gordon 02-Aug-2006, 06:14 AM
Like many of my fellow listeners and researchers, my clan Surname is of both Scottish and Irish ancestry. It is written that my ancestors had holdings in Ireland after they were driven from Scotland by the Romans around 357 A.D. and fled to Ireland. They later returned to Scotland somewhere around the 11th century to help in the fight against viking invaders. For their service, they were granted the land of East Dingwell in Ross-shire which became the Barony of Foulis. From there, they spread into Strathspey and were granted charter to lands there for service as bailies to the Macdonalds, Earls of Ross and Lords of the Isles. It is said that one of the Munro chieftains was an original commander for the Black Watch when it was raised in 1725.

Posted by: Fionna Machumhail 03-Aug-2006, 10:05 AM
My family (both maternal & paternal) has been in America since before the American Revolution. They were mostly Irish & Scottish, some were French & English. Some participated in the fight against the British. Some sided with the British. So...for the better part of 280 years, and more (if you count ALL the branches), my ancestors have become, and are, American. They fought for and helped to build this country. Some married into Indian Nations. A few went to Canada..

I'd heard all my life, since I was a "wee lass", that my paternal ancestors came from Ireland. Some tiny little tidbits of information have managed to weave their way down through the generations. Just didn't know where in Ireland. And before that they came from Scotland. Recent years and research from many finally found the immigrant ancestors, and where in Ireland they came from...they came from the North. Haven't found the Scottish link(s) yet.

There are many who call themselves....Whatever-American even though their ancestors may have come from another country hundreds of years ago. I don't call myself Irish-American, Ulster-American, or Scots-American. I'm just...American, with say, Celtic ancestry.

My thoughts are this: I don't want those ancestors, at least those that I know about, to be forgotten...all they worked for, all the hardships, pain, sorrow, joys...they endured...for ME. For US. So much about them has been lost forever. What little we do know.....we cherish. I love them, and so proud of them, proud of their accomplishments, proud that they persevered. They are in me. I am THEM.

I'd hope that future generations would know me, know who I am, who I was....and want to know me as I want to know those previous ancestors.

rolleyes.gif


Posted by: j Padraig moore 04-Aug-2006, 01:20 PM
This is kinda interesting. My surname Moore I always understood to be british, yet it comes from my irish ancestors (County Galway).
Interesting.

Posted by: CelticRose 09-Aug-2006, 03:38 AM
Hey JP, I can relate. One of my great-grandmothers was a Carleton. You look it up and it says English. However, my great-grandmother and her descendants were born and raised in Ireland! wink.gif

Posted by: cwa92464 13-Dec-2006, 06:11 PM
I guess it really boils down to if you see the glass as half empty or half full. My ancestors came from Scotland, lived in Ireland---but didn't marry Irish, & then moved to the US. I don't consider them Irish. The kids were from Scot parents & moved to the US. So, are they Americans? Not to me. Scots.

FREEEEEEEEDOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Posted by: Roberto Phoenix 04-Feb-2007, 04:42 PM
my wifes mothers maiden name was reynolds and she has traced her family back to ireland and also to holland and scotland

Posted by: Roberto Phoenix 04-Feb-2007, 05:34 PM
Hey Cori. My wife typed in the last message for me but forgot to include a link. this is to the Conover geneology which is related to her side of the reynolds clan. Hope it helps uncover something for you

http://www.conovergenealogy.com/

Posted by: sisterknight 05-Feb-2007, 07:50 AM
my maiden name is snowdon and yet they have been traced to clackmannan in scotland.....then there is the campbell which was traced to ireland and then mcgregor...geesh that makes me some kind of mixed bag,eh??

Posted by: Opa B 09-Sep-2007, 06:03 PM
My wife is a Viken-Viking from Norway, they invaded France and hence the word Norman, they lived in a town south of Paris called Normanville, an ancestor of her's excepted a possition with William the Conqueror and became his Squire, after the invation of England Squire Normanville settled in Scotland, after a couple hundred years a descendant changed his name to Norville, a few hundred years after that a descendant moved to London and changed the name to Norton, Noville and Norton means North Town or Village, in Ireland it's McNaughton, no she has English, Skote, Norman, and Norse what is she now, and don't say American, the only reason you can be considered American is because you were born here, that dosen't count

Posted by: Opa B 11-Sep-2007, 03:44 PM
QUOTE (CelticRose @ 25-Jan-2004, 01:31 AM)
I have wondered this for a time. I have a great-grandmother who is a Carleton (English surname) and yet she was born and raised in Ireland. Does that make her Irish or English in ancestry? I also have great-grandmothers with the surnames of Suit, Walker, Blackstock, Ellerson/Allison which are Scottish in origin. Does that really make them Scottish in ancestry? may be a stupid question but I really want to know. unsure.gif

beer_mug.gif smile.gif : Yes & No, the yes answers are obvious, the No answere, many people changed there last name for many reasons, England forbade any one with a foreign name to reside in England, some changed so as not to show affliation with a notorious nation, in Switzerland my last name was Brügger, in Alsace Germany it was changed to Brücker, after the arrival in Pennsylvania they changed it Bricker, it still has the same meaning in German and English,, someone who lives near or by a bridge, Brücke without the r is German for bridge, we have lived as Deutsch-German for hundreds of years, now we find out through DNA that we are Keltic-Kelten from Taurini, now part of Piedmont Canton Italy, Tau means Mountain, Taurini people of the Alpine Mountains,

I claim the once upon a time country of Taurini as my Heritage and rename it
Tau-Taurini,

Posted by: Ganeida 16-Oct-2007, 03:11 PM
Interesting thread. One part of our family that migrated to Oz from Scotland has a distinctly Spanish surname! And they very carefully covered their tracks for whatever reasons. The mind boggles. So many tantalising questions.

Posted by: CelticRose 19-Oct-2007, 07:29 PM
I wonder how much one of those genetic DNA test costs? I would love to do something like that. My father's side is from Sicily. I read some where Sicily was a penal colony governed by the Moors (who would be from northwest Africa). Since I can't get anywhere on my dad's side outside his and my grandmother's death certificate, I would love to know where their ancestors originated from beyond Sicily. But as of now, I am stuck. sad.gif

Posted by: leenieww 28-Oct-2007, 10:28 AM
My maiden name is McPeak. I've been told that they came from the Galloway district in Scotland. Does anyone know anything about that name?

Posted by: gwenlee 29-Oct-2007, 07:18 PM
leenieww-I looked on several site for McPeak and according to one site it is a Northern Irish name, an Anglicized form of Gaelic MacPeice. I hope that helps you some.

Gwenlee

Posted by: CelticQueenCelticLord 06-Feb-2009, 05:16 PM
Desert Rose

I am also from the Walker end of the world. I can trace my Grandfathers side back to about 1850 or so. We also have the surname Orr back then. It is very hard to trace because so many records do get destroyed. My Grandmother had an Irish surname and when her parents moved to Scotland they changed the spelling some so no one knew they were Irish. Sad that that had to happen. Grandda said we are MacGregors but I found out we could also be Stewart of Apin. So how do you find out for sure. Most records I have found say MacGregor and one I found said something about your last names meaning says where you are as to clans. Walker means something about working with cloth, linen which makes sense to me because as far back as I have found so far my Grandfathers ancestors have always work in some way with fabric be it making it or actually having a Clothier like my Great Grandfather did in Hamilton Scotland and they lived in Blantyre.
What puzzels me is how do you really know what clan you come from or belong to when, when you look back at your family you also have names like Duncan, Clark, Murdock etc.
One of these days I will narrow it down...................
And yes, I to live in the US and feel it important to know "who" I am, where I come from etc and I dont mean Buffalo NY where I was born either.

Posted by: RebeccaAnn 06-Feb-2009, 06:19 PM
Problem with your Scottish, Irish, Welsh and English weather you want to admit it or not they are all British for Great Britain rules the land. The rulers at various times forbade the very things that made our cultures different. The wearing of the kilt or playing of the pipes was forbidden. In Ireland the playing of the harp and wearing of the green were outlawed. In all the lands speaking of the Gaelic was forbidden. Yet somehow our various cultures survived dispite the laws of the English rulers.
My grandmother taught me from the time I was small that I am multi-culture and to be proud of all my ancestors and learn of them. I am Scottish, Irish, Welsh and a bit of English. I am German and French and Polish. I am also American Indian. All my family are a part of me and make me who I am. I have the temper and fighting spirit of my Scots-Irish grandfathers. I have been accused by some of being too much Indian. I learn wisdom, cunning, bravery, etc. from all my grandfathers. Stand proud of your heritage and honour your ancestors. Learn of all your family and your ancestors shall stand proud always watching over you.
RebeccaAnn

Posted by: RebeccaAnn 06-Feb-2009, 06:24 PM
Walker - Occupational surname for a fuller, or person who walked on damp raw cloth in order to thicken it. Derived from the Middle English "walkcere," meaning "a fuller of cloth," and derived from the Old English "wealcan," to walk or tread.

Surname Origin: English, Scottish


Posted by: CelticQueenCelticLord 06-Feb-2009, 09:59 PM
Thank you so much RebeccaAnn. Hope I spelled it right.
I knew it had something to do with cloth but could not remember exactly what. I will save what you said.

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