The Gun Control Debate, Please keep 'em holstered

[free2Bme]

QUOTE (scottish2 @ Jun 17 2003, 01:22 PM)

Mind you I personally don't agree with drugs but then I choose not to live my life like that. My main issue comes down to privacy really in this issue. If a person wishes to throw his/her life away on drugs what right does the government have to step in and throw the person in jail if that person never left home?

I think the real crimes are committed when those "big fish" you spoke of are getting the drugs from the point of origin to the point of sale. That is where the real crime occurs. I think they make buying drugs illegal, in order to curb the demand for these products, which doesn't work. Prohibition did not keep people from wanting to drink alcohol it just drove the business underground.

Now are you speaking of all drugs, or just weed? Weed grows wild in the mountains of Kentucky - according to news and police reports they grow more of it there than California and Hawaii combined. It did not use to be a crime to grow and sell hemp, and before WWII it was a major agricultural crop. They used it to make rope back then.

I am all for making hemp legal again. I think it should all be turned over to the R.J. Reynolds Company as a replacement for their lost revenues from Tobacco (also another major crop in Kentucky) and regulated as such. That would turn the agricultural economy around for sure! This would eliminate the market for those "big fish" and people who want it can get it, pay the taxes on it, boost the economy with those bucks and then hemp would lose its mystique and coolness. Gangs would not have anything to fight over, and drug lords would have to find another illegal blackmarket item to make a living off of.

After all, you hardly ever hear of drive by shootings over a six pack of beer these days, right? Legalizing hemp would have the same positive effects as legalizing alcohol. Add a "sin tax" to the product and everyone wins.

[RavenWing]

QUOTE (free2Bme @ Jun 17 2003, 05:59 PM)

I am all for making hemp legal again. I think it should all be turned over to the R.J. Reynolds Company as a replacement for their lost revenues from Tobacco (also another major crop in Kentucky) and regulated as such. That would turn the agricultural economy around for sure! This would eliminate the market for those "big fish" and people who want it can get it, pay the taxes on it, boost the economy with those bucks and then hemp would lose its mystique and coolness. Gangs would not have anything to fight over, and drug lords would have to find another illegal blackmarket item to make a living off of. After all, you hardly ever hear of drive by shootings over a six pack of beer these days, right? Legalizing hemp would have the same positive effects as legalizing alcohol. Add a "sin tax" to the product and everyone wins.

You had me until the "sin tax"

[scottish2]

Well as far as how far to go legalizing wise I would have to say who am I to say someone else can't get their vision of happiness no matter what I think of it. How do I know that I am not in the wrong view?

Problems with one persons morals is how do you know whose morals are right and whose are wrong? Obviously someones has to be right and someones has to be wrong. So whose to decide? The person whose right or the person whose wrong? Oh that's right we don't know whose right and whose wrong so how to decide?

[Jimmy Carbomb]

QUOTE (Keltic @ Jun 17 2003, 10:35 AM)

People should be held responsible for their actions instead of being held responsible for their potential actions.

Okay... it's driving me NUTS now.

What's the movie with Tom Cruise, where they have these creepy people floating in water who know future crimes and help the police to arrest the criminal PRIOR to the action?

Can't remember the title, but just when you think this would do the job... corruption hits.

[scottish2]

I think this is the one you wanted.

http://www.minorityreport.com/

[tartangal]

I guess not living in America, it is easy to spout forth but maybe it is also easier to see the big picture.
I wonder whether with guns Americans have entered a bit of a p*ssing contest - ie, "you have guns so we have to have guns" then " your guns are bigger, faster than our guns"....... and so on.
Has anyone shown that arming citizens decreases gun crime?
Like Catriona I live in a country where gun use (legel , that is ) is strictly controlled. Our percentage of gun crime is tiny compared to America.
I wonder whether the thought that you are likely to be met with a gun makes you more likely to carry one when going to commit a crime.
Scotland is not without its own problems , but in Glasgow where I work as a nurse,knives are the weapon of choice.Now maybe you are exchanging one weapon for another but the potential for multiple loss of life is so much less.

[MDF3530]

QUOTE (Gaelic Bread @ Jun 17 2003, 02:16 PM)

QUOTE (Keltic @ Jun 17 2003, 10:35 AM) People should be held responsible for their actions instead of being held responsible for their potential actions. Okay... it's driving me NUTS now. What's the movie with Tom Cruise, where they have these creepy people floating in water who know future crimes and help the police to arrest the criminal PRIOR to the action? Can't remember the title, but just when you think this would do the job... corruption hits.

Minority Report, which was really bad. I'm glad I used a free rental coupon at Blockbuster for that pile of garbage. If I'd paid cash, I would've demanded my money back.

[free2Bme]

For the record, I don't own a gun, and I don't do drugs. I love to eat wild deer meat, rabbits, and other game., so gun control laws affect everyone including those who just own guns just to keep wild game in the freezer.

I have seen the effects of illegal drugs on other people and I know that it is not healthy for you, but I also know that if someone wants to buy street drugs it is easier to get street drugs than it is to buy a newspaper. It is everywhere you go, and law enforcement is a joke.

Now to expalin "sin tax" is simply another term for adding a tax to something so that even people who don't believe in something will accept it, because of the tax $ it generates. Alcohol has a sin tax on it, so if drugs are legalized and they slap a tax on it, then that would be known as a sin tax. You could still buy all you want of it, it would just cost more.

[scottish2]

Guess it must be a "Sin" then to buy a new laptop. I ordered one last Fri on-line and they added almost $70 in tax. I complained saying our state doesn't collect tax on-line sales and they came back and said they are required to by the state because of their precense in the state despite the fact I bought on-line. It's getting pathetic when you have to pay a tax on everythig even if that level of government doesn't have jurisdiction over it. So who does have jurisdiction over the net where they can charge a tax?

[Keltic]

QUOTE

Like Catriona I live in a country where gun use (legel , that is ) is strictly controlled. Our percentage of gun crime is tiny compared to America. I wonder whether the thought that you are likely to be met with a gun makes you more likely to carry one when going to commit a crime.

Firearm ownership in Switzerland is at least as high as the U.S. All males between the ages of 20 and 42 are required to keep rifles and pistols at home for purposes of national defense.

• Switzerland had a homicide rate of 1.2 per 100,000 population and a robbery rate of 36 per 100,000.
  
• By comparison, Britain -- which has strict gun control laws -- had a homicide rate in 1994 of 1.4 per 100,000 and a robbery rate of 116 per 100,000.
  

QUOTE

The Sunday Express sent a team of reporters out to investigate the problem and reported in their story of June 20, 1999: "In recent months there have been a frightening number of shootings in Britain's major cities, despite new laws banning gun ownership after the Dunblane tragedy. Our investigation established that guns are available through means open to any criminally minded individual."

If you haven't noticed, I just don't like Government getting into my face. I wish to raise my children and don't want the Government telling me how. I want to live my life and don't want the Government scripting my every move. It's all about personal responsibility and respect for others. I have been too close to Government for too long to trust their motives.
Interesting gun control article from the Cato Institute

[Swanny]

Has anyone shown that arming citizens decreases gun crime?

Oh yes. In the United States at least.

The first and, because it's most official, is the FBI Uniform Crime Report, which has noted that in states where citizens are allowed to carry concealed handguns in public that violent crime isn't just decreased, but falls off manifold.

My favorite though, because it was the most scientifically performed study in the U.S. that has been published to date, was begun under the hypothosis that armed citizens were more likely to be victims of crime than unarmed citizens. The prof doing the study was astounded to learn just the opposite and that in any given year in the United States since the mid-1970s, MILLIONS of violent crimes are deterred by the mere presence of an armed citizen who, without firing a shot, merely displays a firearm.

I have no idea if that would hold true in other nations, however Switzerland is oft cited as a heavily armed nation in which the rate of violent crime is very low. I understand tha violent crimes other than acts of terrorism are quite rare in Israel, but I can't cite that with certainty as it's only repeating what which I've been told by others.

In any event there is more than adequate evidence to show that armed citizens are much less likely to be the victims of violent crimes than are unarmed citizens, and in states that have passed concealed carry laws the overall rate of violent crimes, even those perpetrated against unarmed victims, falls dramatically. That is no longer in the realm of "opinion".

Swanny

[Shadows]

I believe it was our Mr. Jefferson ( Thomas, not George ) that stated "...a little revolution was good for a country now and then..." With gun control this could never happen any where!

[scottish2]

Quite true Shadows. In fact good subject what did our founding fathers have to say about guns? Here are some quotes a long with some quotes from other historical figures. Some good people and yes some bad as well.

First the Second amendment the founders most powerful statement

QUOTE

The 2nd Amendment (1791)A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

John Adams

QUOTE

"Here, every private person is authorized to arm himself, and on the strength of this authority, I do not deny the inhabitants had a right to arm themselves at that time, for their defense, not for offense...." -John Adams

Samuel Adams

QUOTE

"The Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms." -Samuel Adams, debates at; Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87.

Adolf Hitler

QUOTE

"This year will go down in history. For the first time a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future." -Adolf Hitler, 1935.

Alexander Hamilton

QUOTE

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." -Alexander Hamilton

Thomas Jefferson

QUOTE

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -Thomas Jefferson "No man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -Thomas Jefferson "The Constitution of most of the states (and of the United States) asserts that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." -Thomas Jefferson "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria. "I hold it that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms are in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people, which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions, as not to discourage them too much. It is medicine necessary for the sound health of government." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787. "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure." --Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787.

Richard Henry Lee

QUOTE

"To preserve Liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them -Richard Henry Lee, Letters from the Federal Farmer

James Madison

QUOTE

"Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at the individual discretion, in private self-defense."  John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America, 1787-88 "Besides, the advantage of being armed forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. The governments of Europe are afraid to trust the people with arms. If they did, the people would certainly shake off the yoke of tyranny, as America did." -James Madison By the time James Madison uttered these words, Switzerland had already been a free and armed republic for nearly 250 years. The Swiss government insists that every able bodied person between 18 and 45 years of age possess a military style firearm and ammunition. Switzerland is still a free, armed republic today after nearly 460 years, and was the only nation in Europe that Hitler didn't dare invade. The Swiss also have the lowest crime rate of any nation in Europe. Armed crime in Switzerland is so rare they don't even keep statistics on it. (JP) "Americans need never fear their government because of the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation." - James Madison

George Mason

QUOTE

"To disarm the people (is) the best and most effectual way to enslave them..." -George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates 380.

George Washington

QUOTE

"When firearms go, all goes. We need them every hour." -George Washington "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and the keystone under independence... From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurances and tendencies prove that to ensure peace, security, and happiness, the rifle, and pistol are equally indispensable... The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." -George Washington

So that is how some of history has seen the use of weapons.

[Aon_Daonna]

regarding Switzerland: I know alot of Swiss people.. the thing about Switzerland is they have no Army in the sense as you ppl have it in the USA or we have in Germany or the UK has... The law requires that because the people of Switzerland chose so.

Just thought i'd say that

In Germany policemen carry guns (Catriona, I nearly fell back down the stairs in Belfast Airport when that policeman with MP approached me! Goodness, I was so frightened!), but every German knows that they are ony allowed to use them if there is real danger from somebody threatening their own lives. If they fire without being in danger they get heavy punishment (sometimes even get charged for murder). No heavier guns than handguns allowed, too.

Somebody of my class shot a policeman right into the head, out of a car. he was 16 at that time (no driving licence too, the car was stolen) and it was in an "respectable" neighbourhood, the policeman was just watching the traffic.
If you really want a gun, it is easy to get your hands on them, registered or not. He managed that. And in Germany we have laws regarding guns,too, you have to have a "waffenschein", a license to use weapons only recieved after proper training, and the weapon must be registered.
Still things like the massacre like in the "Goethe-Gymnasium" happen. The laws regarding weapons were even more hardened, but still it is possible to get a gun if you really want it, even with stringent laws.

I'm not good with words tonight, maybe when I get my words together I'll able to tell you what I think, but somehow the right words won't come into my head tonight. But for me, guns are more of a psychological problem...

[Roisin-Teagan]

No one has posted on this board in a while, but I guess it is my turn to post...

I do not own a gun, and I do not know if I will ever own one. But as a free citizen of America, I want the right to do so. One of my brothers was murdered by a gang-banger. My brother was shot at close range with a hand-gun. The bullet went through his right side passing through his right lung, the aorta of the heart and then his left lung. He died in his car. Now this gun was not registered, but the murderer wanted to kill, and so he killed. My brother was only 27 with three small boys who loved him because he was their world. Most would think I would want to ban guns altogether, but I don't. I hate murder in any form, but I do not believe taking away our right to protect ourselves would keep us safe from insane killers.

My younger brother is a police officer, with a special force called "Street Crimes" unit. He fights everyday to keep the drug dealers off of the streets and protect our community. He has told me, that he has become fustrated with the apathy expressed by some in the ranks of the police force. Maybe he cares too much. He has to carry a gun, to defend himself and protect others against murder and violent crimes.

I whole heartedly agree with Swanny and Scottish2, in that if we give up our right to arm and defend ourselves how will we ever push back tyranny or mad-dictatorship governments. Maybe the quotes by our "Founding Fathers" that were posted earlier seem far-fetched and out-dated by those on the otherside of the pond---but it is more real than you know. A crazed government can easily subdue a blase, unarmed population, because they (the government in control) have the weapons to force their will on the people. We cannot think or believe that the human race will ever live in an utopian society(Except maybe in the after-life). History tells us this much! I do believe in and support peace, but I agree with Thomas Jefferson who said,

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

I say all this with true sincerity and respect to others with differing opinions and beliefs. I truly respect your right to disagree!