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Posted by: Macy 05-Dec-2003, 03:04 AM
GOD?S LACK OF EVIDENCE

If no one can give any evidence that can pass all of these tests then I stand by my conviction that there is no scientific proof of God and therefore s/he is not recognized by the scientific method and does not exist

The evidence or proof must:

-come from acceptable scientific evidence and facts which can be proved

-not come from individuals? convictions or beliefs as they DO NOT constitute scientific evidence, nor do individual?s experiences. People are notoriously unreliable witnesses, liars and exaggerators. Often times they believe they have seen or experienced something which has not happened

-have a proven connection to God using the scientific method


That?s it! If you do think you have something that passes the three tests please send me the evidence with your argument at [email protected] with subject ?God Debate?
If you have any questions or disagreements with any of my arguments feel free to email
-Macy




The definitions and arguments for the preceding statements follow-

God - A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe.

scientific method The principles and empirical processes of discovery and demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for scientific investigation, generally involving the observation of phenomena, the formulation of a hypothesis concerning the phenomena, experimentation to demonstrate the truth or falseness of the hypothesis, and a conclusion that validates or modifies the hypothesis.


scientific evidence - A thing or things which have passed the scientific method used to form a conclusion or judgment




Here are arguments in support of my case

(1) People are notorious liars and exaggerators

(2) If you have an unexplained unknown, it is not acceptable to propose another unknown in answer / Historic Religions

(3) Reasons for why so many believe in God

(4) Intelligent Design


***
(1) People are notorious liars and exaggerators

People are known to be incredibly unreliable witnesses. During the middle ages there were countless sightings of the Virgin Mary. Jeanne d?Arc in France, St. Bridget in Sweden and Girolamo Savonarola in Italy all claimed to have seen Mary, but less known were the hundreds of sightings by farmers, women and children. People claimed to have seen Mary and that she told them to build a church or invade another county. The reasons for creating and believing these stories are abundant, ranging from conforming other?s belief to your faith, bringing business to your city, all the way to simply gaining social status.
All people have a need for a power of one sort or another. People are inherently needy and have wants, whether it is money, pride or raising one?s emotional esteem. A good deed will often make you feel better, while stories which elevate past the truth will put others in awe, and although you did not perform this feat, the attention will be drawn to you and your story. It is only sharing part of the glory of the original deed, but the greater the endeavor that you tell, the more that people will react and the more attention you will draw to yourself.


***
(2) If you have an unexplained unknown, it is not acceptable to propose another unknown in answer / Historic Religions

In scientific research, one is always searching for the simplest explanation that explains all the facts. If you have an unknown for which you do not have an explanation, it is not acceptable to propose another, imagined unknown, for which you have no scientific evidence. Having said that, I would like to bring the value of religions in my presentation into focus. They are not proof of God?s existence and likewise are not a denial to his existence, but they are merely used in my argument to help explain man?s thoughts and his conscience with respect to his relation with his belief in a greater being. God has never been proven to exist with respectable scientific evidence, although this may be, it is not possible to prove that an undetectable, invisible, unperceivable being does not exist. I can prove religions false, inaccurate and hypocritical and still not prove that a god does not exist. Instead of physically proving that God?s existence is impossible, since no reliable scientific proof holds this idea within the bounds of reason, I will first explore man?s reasoning and belief in a god or gods.

Historic Religions -
A contradicting issue to our recent religious history is Greek Mythology. First, what is the meaning of myth? A fictitious story, person, or thing. Does anyone believe in Zeus anymore? He was the Greek king of the Gods and was proposed responsible for lightning, he threw lightning bolts. We have climbed to the top of Mt. Olympus and found nothing and we now have the scientific evidence that explains lightning. The myriad experiments show that lightning is caused by the release of static electric charges between differently charged masses, effectuated by the ionization of the air between the masses. This is another incident where baseless religious ideas were used for reasoning with the unknown, but for the same reasons which God exists, Zeus exists as well. The common belief of where God resided, up until recently, was the sky, also known as the heavens. That is not the case for all religions I know, but for those that follow the bible and know the text will realize what I am talking of. Now that we can fly, and now that we have seen nothing in the ?heavens? the idea of God has changed, as it did many times before. Why do you think the bible needs newer versions?
God is now described as what we simple humans cannot perceive in any way. This is what I have heard from priests, ministers and most theists. You will find few people who today believe that heaven and God are visible and reside in the clouds. The justification behind this decision was to prevent challenges to the existence of God.
The original reasons for the creation of religions boils down to the fear of death and explanations for the unknown. The theory of evolution didn?t come about until the early 1800s and no other scientific explanation could be found, therefore the ideas of Adam and Eve or the creation of all life from water were readily accepted. The Aztecs believed that the sun and moon were gods and that gods controlled the weather and their crops, merely to explain what they could not conceive at the time. We are in an era now, where the unknown is rapidly dissipating, but the basis of religion is on the explanation of the unknown. There is one unknown which we will not be able to confront, death is a fear which is ever present in many people and drives them to believe even the most absurd and illogical ideas. The idea of Hades, Thanatos, Pluto, the gates of hell and Valhalla are now considered outdated by the masses, but they all served the same purpose, just as Heaven and Hell do now.

***
(3) Reasons for why so many believe in God

They were taught their parents? religion at an early age, which is and has been quite common. In schoolhouses across the country during the early 1900s, books were scarce and the bible was often used to teach children to read. This is happening when a child?s critical thinking capabilities are not even near fully developed. From three to eight years old a child?s frontal lobe, which controls the child?s thought process and ability to understand, goes through multiple growth spurts. By age eight the child has the means to comprehend much more complex ideas and issues, but the child?s ability to effectively judge and critique have only just begun to mature. By the time they have grown to an age where they can interpret and fully understand the lessons and stories taught to them, they have the basics of the religion engrained into their minds.
The second reason is fear. People have a natural and necessary fear of death. If we did not fear death and give it respect, we would die off like lemmings by carelessness or simply to entertain ourselves. The thought of death without an afterlife is frightening for most people, the end, nothingness, not even a black void. The closest we can come to death is a deep sleep which we remember none of. We can not simulate the experience of death for you cannot think or use your mind when dead and there-for cannot remember it. The pleasurable scenario, which many have taken to, is the idea of Heaven or another form of life after death for other religions. Whatever you like or fancy is there, it is often described as a perfect land with no flaws, but if you do not obey this religion, choose another religion or sin, you will be sent to the opposite of Heaven. Although many other religions do not have a Hell, they most definitely have a consequence for the three transgressions which I mentioned earlier. Hell is quite often described as a suffering experience. Torment and anguish fall upon those who reside there. It is everything that is bad, and apparently has lots of fire. When ignorant masses or citizens easily deluded, are presented with a decree, which if they do not follow, when they die they will undergo eternal damnation, they will readily accept without thought. For those which contemplate and thoughtfully deliberate over such decisions, whether or not the decree is true, they are less likely manipulated, but the fear of emptiness after death is so strong that often times people are willing to follow religions in order to feel security. They will often follow so strongly, for want of another life, that if they had doubts in the beginning they will want to believe so badly that they will deceive themselves and even those who listen to them.

***
(4) Intelligent Design

I have not looked into the thousands of religions and cults, but of the major religions, the flaw which predetermines the accuracy of every book of faith which I have read, is their theory of the creation of the earth and of man. The theory behind this argument is that it is impossible for a being as complex as a human to exist without a greater being?s help. C. S. Lewis was the founder of one of the main arguments used in Intelligent Design. His argument was that if you came across a wall in the middle of a prairie, would you assume it happened by chance or would you assume someone built it? The basic flaw behind this comparison is that a wall is not alive and cannot reproduce or mutate. Humans mutate constantly though, stillborns and disabled babies are almost always mutated in some way or another. The human body will often naturally abort a fetus which has been mutated in a way which would hinder its? chance of survival. Survival of the fittest is not only exercised in today?s society, but has been used to weed out the weaker species. This is evolution.
A surprising fact, is that the human DNA, which is the design for the outcome of that human, is on average .8% different from the standard human DNA. This is due to mutations in the DNA structure. Chimps are of a lower intellect and therefore do not prosper as well as humans, but their DNA structure is 98.4% the same as humans, a difference from of 1.6%. Arguments may vary this amount up to 5%, but these sources fail to compensate for the discarded information used to determine this percent. Chimps are actually closer related to humans than they are to gorillas, orangutans and gibbons. They are even closer related than two species of gibbon, the common gibbon and the siamang gibbon.
Therefore we can see that evolution does exist and through this logic we can see that a lesser creature can mutate over generations to become a smarter and more advanced creature too. Then we can also apply this to Homo sapiens, which have had between 200,000 and 300,000 years to evolve. Humans evolved at a gradual nature at this time, and it is a complicated process identifying exactly when the evolutionary transition from Homo ergaster to Homo sapiens occurred.
Since we have evolution with no scientific evidence of any help from a greater being and furthermore no basis for the possibility of a greater being?s help we can conclude that there is no God helping out in this field.

Posted by: oldraven 05-Dec-2003, 08:49 AM
And then?

Not to be rude, but this has been beaten to death. Everyone who doesn't believe in God tries to disprove his existence with Science.

Tell me, what's the point of faith if we have tangible proof? I look around me and see all the proof I need.

Another point of view, science still can't disprove the existence of a God. As well, any theories of the beginning of the universe (ie Big Bang) can't be proven by science. They can get to a certain point and then the math just breaks down.

I'm not saying science can't work in unison with faith, but there's only so much that we can prove with formulas. The rest is up to chance, fate, and planning.

Posted by: Cailiosa 05-Dec-2003, 09:32 AM
I certainly do admire all the effort you must have put into that post, Macy . . . very well thought out argument. While I myself can't give you any scientific evidence, I do have I book that I would highly recommend you read. It's called The Case For Christ, by Lee Strobel. Here's how the back cover describes it:

A Seasoned Journalist Chases Down the Biggest Story in History

Is there credible evidence that Jesus of Nazareth really is the Son of God?

Retracing his own spiritual journey from atheism to faith, Lee Strobel, former legal editor of the Chicago Tribune, cross-examines a dozen experts with doctorates from schools like Cambridge, Princeton, and Brandeis who are recognized authorities in their own fields.

Strobel challenges them with questions like "How reliable is the New Testament?" "Does evidence exist for Jesus outside the Bible?" "Is there any reason to believe the resurrection was an actual event?"

Strobel's tough, point-blank questions make this remarkable book read like a captivating, fast-paced novel. But it's not fiction. It's a riveting quest for the truth about history's most compelling figure.


Though this book provides compelling archeaological and historical, etc. proof for the existence of Christ (which in turn provides proof for the existence of God), I do believe what oldraven says to be true. The whole point of faith is to believe in something that we can't see, don't always have tangible evidence for. According to Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." (If you have the time, I'd recommend you read the rest of Hebrews 11. It's the "Hall of Fame" for those biblical figures that acted out of faith).

Here's a question for you. Can you see the wind? But you know it exists, right, because you can see it's effects on other objects. The same is true about God. I can't see Him in a physical form, but I have evidenced Him working in other people's lives and in my own as well.

I hope this book helps you out and I pray that God will help you find what you are looking for.
Jennie

Posted by: Celeste of the Stars1 05-Dec-2003, 09:57 AM
Not to offend anyone, but hasn't this poor horse been beaten enough?

Posted by: Elspeth 05-Dec-2003, 10:31 AM
No question is beaten to death if it is important to someone.

Sorry to get all psychoanalytical, but the fact you posed the question in the first place seems to say you want God to be real. Otherwise you?d just dismiss Him as a fairytale and move on with your life.

I?m sorry, God cannot be proven.

A relationship with Him is a choice you must make. He doesn?t have to prove His existence to us. However, I can see it all about me.
You have to make that choice, or not, for yourself.

Posted by: Raven 05-Dec-2003, 11:52 AM
Whew...that's quite a post Macy

I guess a couple of questions.

1.) are you in search of evidence for a creator or a personal God?

2.) What theory of science do you subscribe to for the existence of the universe?

3.) Do you believe that the second law of thermodynamics applys only to non living entities?

4.) do you believe in Macro Evolution (molecules to man or life from no life evolution) in addition to Micro Evolution (survival of the fittest, dominant or adaptave life etc.) and do you believe in inter species evolution (fish to reptiles, monkeys to man etc.)?

I will be happy to give what empirical evidence that I can offer as I to believe in the scientific method when it is applied in the spirit in which it is intended (establishing a theory and setting out to prove or disprove it as opposed to setting out to prove what I already believe to be true..in other words a real search for truth)

After all inquiring minds want to know tongue.gif and the horse is not truly dead if it continues to whinney biggrin.gif

Peace

Mikel

Posted by: Shadows 05-Dec-2003, 12:03 PM
A quote from Al Einstien:

"If god had not created man, man would have created god."

It is the old chicken or egg question on a higher level!

Posted by: tsargent62 05-Dec-2003, 12:48 PM
You may, Macy, dismiss what I'm about to say because "people are notorious liars", but I think anyone with a deep, abiding faith has had what may be termed as religious experiences.

I was like you once. I considered myself agnostic, neither accepting or rejecting the existence of God. Then, one day, I was on the roof of the iron foundry where I used to work, doing some maintenance. I looked around, saw that I was alone, and thought, "What have I got to loose?" I got down on my knees and said, "God, are you there?" Suddenly, I was surrounded by love and pure joy. I felt as if I was a child being hugged tight by his father. It was so peaceful, yet so shocking for its intensity. So many times I wish I could live that day again. If I ever start to have doubts, I think back to that day and those doubts evaporate.

Like Cailiosa, I've seen God at work in my life and the lives of others. Sure, you may dismiss this as wanting to assign credit to God, and to some measure, you may be right. However, I consider myself an intelligent man, able to separate fact from fantasy. I know when God is influencing me personally. I know when God has played a hand in events because I can feel it. You're probably thinking, "Sure you can. You can because you want to." No, my friend, because I can feel it physically, by a warm feeling deep in my chest. I've had these kinds of feelings ever since my day on the roof. I have spoken to other believers that have the same feelings.

Just one more thing and I'll end my preaching. I consider myself a junior scientist. I believe there is a place for religion and science to co-exist. Take for example the Big Bang. "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." It had to come from somewhere. Why not from God? According to astrophysicists, the matter was all of a sudden there, expanding into the universe. We really don't know what it took for God to create everything, so who's to say that it didn't happen the way scientists think?

Just my 18 cents.


Posted by: myriad 05-Dec-2003, 01:05 PM
Science is great! I love it. Check out Does God Exist by John Clayton.
Wonderful reading. Great Video Series. John Clayton: Scientist and Athiest sets out to prove God does not exist and that it is all a hoax-- scientifically. Can I answer your question Macy? no. Can I give an overview of this book? no. If you are confident that God does not exist... check out the book/video.. what could it hurt. I check out all the other beliefs, through video, book, and speaking with others in person and with all y'all. Have I been effected? yes. Many things I believed I have questioned and have learned a great deal about myself and others. The most important thing I have learned is the beauty of simple truth and the importance of someone finding the answer to their questions for themself. wink.gif If I sent you an e-mail with the answer to those questions you would say great yeah right coming from a Christian.. bah. However if you check out what a scientist, like yourself has to say, and really question it... you will find the answer for yourself.

Mary
*seeker of simplicity in truth* 8)

Posted by: Celeste of the Stars1 05-Dec-2003, 02:54 PM
QUOTE (Raven @ Dec 5 2003, 12:52 PM)
After all inquiring minds want to know tongue.gif and the horse is not truly dead if it continues to whinney biggrin.gif

Peace

Mikel

How very true. My apologies! smile.gif

Posted by: Raven 05-Dec-2003, 02:59 PM
biggrin.gif non needed from you dear lady as you posted no offense intended. And after all you were only trying to save the poor horse further pain wink.gif

I hope to see you in chat again sometime.

Slainte

Mikel

Posted by: hilander1299 05-Dec-2003, 04:13 PM
Why is it that those who believe in GOD are always trying to justify that belief? Can't we all just believe in our own beliefs without having others beiefs shoved down our throats?????

Posted by: oldraven 05-Dec-2003, 04:37 PM
QUOTE (hilander1299 @ Dec 5 2003, 03:13 PM)
Why is it that those who believe in GOD are always trying to justify that belief? Can't we all just believe in our own beliefs without having others beiefs shoved down our throats?????

What are you talking about? I don't see anyone shoving anything down anyone's throats. And when someone is trying to disprove my faith, I have a tendancy to defend it. Pick your battles man.

Posted by: Keltic 05-Dec-2003, 05:13 PM
QUOTE (hilander1299 @ Dec 5 2003, 06:13 PM)
Why is it that those who believe in GOD are always trying to justify that belief? Can't we all just believe in our own beliefs without having others beiefs shoved down our throats?????

Check out the first post. Seems someone is trying to justify his belief and is trying to shove it down others throats.

Posted by: Raven 05-Dec-2003, 05:27 PM
QUOTE (hilander1299 @ Dec 5 2003, 05:13 PM)
Why is it that those who believe in GOD are always trying to justify that belief? Can't we all just believe in our own beliefs without having others beiefs shoved down our throats?????

Hey High

Read the question at the top of the post. It seems that questions are being asked

Mikel smile.gif

Posted by: Celeste of the Stars1 06-Dec-2003, 03:26 AM
QUOTE (hilander1299 @ Dec 5 2003, 05:13 PM)
Why is it that those who believe in GOD are always trying to justify that belief? Can't we all just believe in our own beliefs without having others beiefs shoved down our throats?????

My thoughts exactly. Like I said before, I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I believe this subject is in the religious debate thread.

Posted by: Keltic 06-Dec-2003, 08:27 AM
Celeste,

The original post shows that it works both ways. There are always those who feel the need to preach and it comes from all sides and concerns all subjects. We will often perceive those with different beliefs and views as being pushy especially when you are already familiar with that viewpoint. Whereas a conversation with someone with similar views is seen as provoking, informative and welcome.

I don't feel the need to make everyone the same as me but many people do. Christians don't hold the monopoly on preaching!

Posted by: Celeste of the Stars1 06-Dec-2003, 08:46 AM
QUOTE (Keltic @ Dec 6 2003, 09:27 AM)
Celeste,

The original post shows that it works both ways. There are always those who feel the need to preach and it comes from all sides and concerns all subjects. We will often perceive those with different beliefs and views as being pushy especially when you are already familiar with that viewpoint. Whereas a conversation with someone with similar views is seen as provoking, informative and welcome.

I don't feel the need to make everyone the same as me but many people do. Christians don't hold the monopoly on preaching!

I do agree with you. I've also decided not to post to this thread anymore. I have nothing "scientific" to add, so it is better that I stay away. Before I go however I must say this last thing. If you need scientific proof that there is a higher being (ie God, Buddah, etc.) Then you need to reevaluate your faith.

*Steps of soap box and slinks into the shadows*

Posted by: Raven 06-Dec-2003, 11:21 AM
QUOTE (Celeste of the Stars1 @ Dec 6 2003, 09:46 AM)
Before I go however I must say this last thing. If you need scientific proof that there is a higher being (ie God, Buddah, etc.) Then you need to reevaluate your faith.

*Steps of soap box and slinks into the shadows*

That may be true for you Celeste. But people are all different and people have different reasons to believe what they believe.

Some believe that they have been lied to so much or that there are so many ulterior motives that they need something more concrete at least as a starting point.

I for one see no reason to deny Science as I have not found anywhere that true science, when applied, denies the existence of God (no matter if you chose to see an impersonal or personal creator) I don't see it as a challenge to site evidence that would point to the existence of God. For me science only serves to build my faith. For others it not only makes no difference it makes no sense (or they feel like a horse that has already been properly beaten is being senslessly brutalized tongue.gif ). It is just the way that we are all wired differently. Neither point of view is more valid or important it is just how we all have different needs and perspectives.

No disrespect towards Marty (as I have at one point in my life been at a similar point with God and science) but in regards to the intelligent design question, it is difficult to say that we like the wall referenced are not built and then fall into a state of decay. E.G. born eventually reach a peak performance and then gradually fall into a state of decay just as the second law of thermodynamics would dictate.
We all have a beginning in our lives a beginning dictates a beginner. Who is to say there is no outside force (builder) that somehow acts on us to bring life to begin with and at some point when the construction is finished allows us to fall into a state of decay.

I do not think that I have ever seen any kind of scientific theory that indicates a belief (the first step of faith - yes faith is even a part of science rolleyes.gif ) that life has always been. Every mainstream scientist is looking for the beginning of life the universe everything. If this were not so, no one would be looking for the age of the universe or talking about it winding down. This is a fact not an abstract idea (albeit a difficult one to get your mind around in most instances).

Physics dictates (conservation of energy) that the clock did not wind up without a winder. This is true whether we are talking non-living (the universe) or living (the beginning of life on any level no matter what your view is on evolution)

If you are looking for someone to open a box for you that has God in it I would not hold my breath. A being or entity that was able to create the universe and the life we see in it could not be held in any box. If that is the type of empirical evidence you seek, good luck. If you are looking for evidence of the Handiwork of God it is all around you, it simply needs to be recognized for what it is. (then you can get on to the next question which is what kind of god and who's god wink.gif ) It is like observing the wind (I realize this is a little like apples to oranges but it is a tangible example) you cannot see the wind but you can see the effects of the wind. The same goes for light, you cannot see it until it reflects off of something, hence the blackness of space. It’s a cause and effect relationship, if God or a higher being of some sort is not the cause then what?

My challenge would be to show me empirical evidence that God does not exist. Now there is a challenge for you.

Always look for the truth but be prepared, it may not be what you want it to be.

BTW good post Keltic - when engaging in a debate (if that is what you enjoy-and I do) it is not much of a debate if all sides agree at the outset. Marty I appreciate the fact that you are willing to stretch our minds with your questions and I wonder if we will see another post from you here in the near. (I welcome the stimulating discussion thumbs_up.gif )

Peace

Mikel

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 06-Dec-2003, 03:23 PM
I don't know.. I mean for my personal stance: I went to catholic schools all my life (one operated by Opus Dei, if you ppl don't know what that is: it's some sort of hardcore Christian agency (catholic of course wink.gif ) which tries to meddle with just about everything). One of them was a boarding school for girls, and somehow I hated the fact that they tried to shove their belief down my throat. (dot. point made)

About Christian/non-christian bashing: People are very sensitive when it comes to things regarding their beliefs (I wish we could all abandon religion!) Being touchy doesn't help resolving conflicts. I would guess that most of us have been brought up in a Christian environment and some grew to dislike it others to be enthralled by the things it means to them.
Most of us probably don't mean to hurt others discussing such things but alas somehow it can't be avoided..

I am agnostic, which means that I don't believe in God, but I don't disbelieve either (the stance of a coward probably). About science and belief or not.. there is a documentary from the 70s I think, which interviews various scientist of that time (some working on micro biology, some one atom physics, some on quantum physics.. etc) and I think most of them at some point state that they think there must be something, and the farther they go, the more questions they have.

It is damn easy to feel attacked though.. maybe we should all think about that.. I mean a discussion isn't about attacking people's beliefs (another thing to think about).

I mean I don't want to be the preacher here. And now I did it *mumbles* sometimes I annoy myself *grins*

Posted by: Raven 06-Dec-2003, 07:18 PM
QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Dec 6 2003, 04:23 PM)
It is damn easy to feel attacked though.. maybe we should all think about that.. I mean a discussion isn't about attacking people's beliefs (another thing to think about).

I mean I don't want to be the preacher here. And now I did it *mumbles* sometimes I annoy myself *grins*

Right you are Aon

I like to be able to discuss, feel free to express myself with in reason tongue.gif and have people be able to either accept what I say or try to change my mind in an intelligent way.

It seems more civilized that way. Emotions tend to destroy logical thought processes in us all. Myself as guilty as anyone else particularly if the circumstances are right unsure.gif

Slainte

Mikel

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 06-Dec-2003, 07:44 PM
mmh I ken..

I mean you all should maybe read the Irak threat... it went quite bad there... I decided to leave at some point because I knew I was getting personal and I don't like it (least with myself) so I decided to leave the threat. It's somewhere in the General Discussion one.


Posted by: Celeste of the Stars1 07-Dec-2003, 10:24 AM
clap.gif clap.gif *Celeste claps wildly from the corner for her friend* clap.gif clap.gif

Posted by: Raven 07-Dec-2003, 05:50 PM
I must have missed something unsure.gif

but I'm all for encouragement biggrin.gif

*Mikel claps wildly also and looks arround to try and figure out where the corners are* tongue.gif

I will look at the Irak Threat and maybe it will be clear as mud then.

I just thought that Macy might have some interesting input when I started posting here in response to his/her questions. It seems Macy either has not checked back as I have not seen a post since the start of this thread.

Also just to point out to those of you who think that this topic is the same as the religious debate forum (feel free to correct me if I am wrong) but wasn't that discussion more along the lines of whether the Bible is to be believed or not or rather a basis for faith, regardless of what you believe as opposed to "does God exist? Two completely separate issues.

I think that most of the people that posted in that thread have belief in gods they just have different frames of reference.

*sits down on rock to wait patiently for the return of Macy*

Posted by: Raven 07-Dec-2003, 06:09 PM
BTW Aon

I looked and was unable to find the Irak threat post....Sorry I am interested,,, and I got to thinking and I hope you did not feel that I was attacking yours or anyone elses beliefs....that was totally not my intention smile.gif

It was nice talking to you in Chat yesterday and thanks for the fife lessons tongue.gif

Peace

Mikel

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 07-Dec-2003, 06:12 PM
mmh.. my beliefs are not easily attacked for once, secondly I think I'm quite tolerant. I only am easily by ppl that are dumb and think they know all, or by those that don't want to learn more...

mmh I don't know, maybe Paul deleted it...

Posted by: Shadows 07-Dec-2003, 07:01 PM
I wonder.....**shadows thinks out loud**

Does, god/the gods/ the creator/ the grand planner, sit around and wonder if humans really exist?

Posted by: Raven 07-Dec-2003, 07:20 PM
QUOTE (Shadows @ Dec 7 2003, 08:01 PM)
I wonder.....**shadows thinks out loud**

Does, god/the gods/ the creator/ the grand planner, sit around and wonder if humans really exist?

Very funny Shadows biggrin.gif

(serious look) wouldn't be much of god/gods/planners or founders(if you follow Star Trek) if they had to wonder now would they tongue.gif

Mikel

Posted by: Annabelle 07-Dec-2003, 10:08 PM
Have you ever heard of the "Dead Sea Scrolls"?

Very goood for justifying the existence of the bible.

Annabelle

Posted by: Elspeth 07-Dec-2003, 11:33 PM
QUOTE (Shadows @ Dec 7 2003, 08:01 PM)
I wonder.....**shadows thinks out loud**

Does, god/the gods/ the creator/ the grand planner, sit around and wonder if humans really exist?

biggrin.gif

And if so does he/she/they/it wonder where he/she/they/it went so horribly wrong?
wink.gif

Posted by: Cailiosa 07-Dec-2003, 11:42 PM
QUOTE (Annabelle @ Dec 7 2003, 11:08 PM)
Have you ever heard of the "Dead Sea Scrolls"?

Very goood for justifying the existence of the bible.

Annabelle

Sure thing, Annabelle. I did a report on them in my Archeaology class a year ago. Though I don't remember many details about them as my memory stinks, I know there are quite a few Biblical Archeaology websites that have a wealth of information on the Dead Sea Scrolls. I can try to round a few up if anybody would like to learn more about them.

Posted by: Raven 08-Dec-2003, 08:01 AM
At the risk of being called a know it all (I've not been able to determine if some comments were directed at me or not tongue.gif shrugs and goes on wink.gif )

One of the cool things about the Dead Sea scrolls is that the provide conclusive evidence that the book of Danial (at least many portions) were acutally written before the events occurred making the writings prophesy as opposed to what some sceptics have written about Danial (saying it was predated)

I'm not sure that is the kind of evidence that Macy was looking for as I understood him/her to be looking for proof of a god/creator in a general.

I also posted information in the "Religeous Debate Thread" about a show that I saw on Discovery that indicates historical accuracy in the account of the life of Moses.

Interesting stuff! Thanks for bringing it up Annabelle!

Cailiosa, I for one would love to hear more about the Dead Sea Scrolls. (looks over each should and whispers, "speaking for myself")

Peace

Mikel

Posted by: myriad 08-Dec-2003, 11:33 AM
Hello everyone
If you look back to pg. 2 you will see that I deleted my tantrum. I want to apologize for being irrational. I hope it doesn't discredit everything I have to say in the future. I have locked the soapbox away in the closet for a while so I can return to learning more by listenting. Thank you all for your insight and thank you for your understanding.
Mary

Posted by: Cailiosa 08-Dec-2003, 12:50 PM
For anyone who is interested . . .

http://www.bib-arch.org/
Actually a magazine, though it provides a variety of resources on biblical archaeology in general, several of them on the Dead Sea Scrolls. I remember being given this site by my Archaeology professor as a worthwhile source for my report.

http://www.bibleandscience.com/archaeology/discoveries/scrolls.htm
Just stumbled upon this one . . . seems like a winner. Might be worth your while to check out the entire site if you're interested in the connection of science to the Bible, Biblical Archaeology, etc. . Also has a section on if God exists (found under the Bible and Science section on the main page).

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/intro.html
The website for the Dead Sea Scrolls exhibit at the Library of Congress. Provides background information on the scrolls as well as links where one may find more information on them.

http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il/
Used their information in writing my paper. The Orion center works out of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem and is dedicated to the study of the Dead Sea Scrolls and associated literature. Very helpful -- have a faq list and many science based resources.

Enjoy! Be sure to report back if you find anything interesting. tongue.gif
Jennie

Posted by: maggiemahone1 08-Dec-2003, 06:30 PM
QUOTE (Elspeth @ Dec 8 2003, 05:33 AM)

And if so does he/she/they/it wonder where he/she/they/it went so horribly wrong?
wink.gif

If any of you are bible readers, you have read in the Old Testament ...God was very sorry that he created mankind. sad.gif I think we have went from bad to worst.

I can't give anyone any scientific evidence that there is a God. I only know what I feel in my heart and the great peace I have knowing God.

maggiemahone1

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 08-Dec-2003, 06:45 PM
*smiles wickedly* call me an idiot but I can imagine why God was sorry for it *laughs* I mean there is not much to be proud of in humankind is there?

Posted by: Raven 08-Dec-2003, 07:54 PM
QUOTE (maggiemahone1 @ Dec 8 2003, 07:30 PM)

If any of you are bible readers, you have read in the Old Testament ...God was very sorry that he created mankind. sad.gif I think we have went from bad to worst.


Good Point Maggie

I forget about that from time to time. According to the flood account if he hadn't have found Noah he would have just wiped us all out and started over.


Peace

Mikel

Posted by: maggiemahone1 08-Dec-2003, 08:02 PM
note.gif Who built the ark? Noah, Noah, Who built the ark? Brother Noah built the ark! note.gif biggrin.gif Remember that song?

maggiemahone1

Posted by: Raven 08-Dec-2003, 10:17 PM
Dang Maggie

You are making me feel old. I sang that song in my first grade music class back in the days when sonic booms filled the air and before that sort of behavior became illegal in public schools.

It's good to remenisce though. I really loved that music teacher.

Mikel angel_not.gif

Posted by: Macfive 09-Dec-2003, 07:02 PM
Im not about to bestow my religious beliefs on you all, but to simply point out the fact that everything around is so wonderfully engineered......take the human body for instance....millions of cells working in conjunction allowing us to live and breath.

The weather, the earth, the environment, the ocean, the sun.....wow; to design such wonderful things.......did these just happen on their own or is their some great creator behind it all............

makes you wonder?

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 09-Dec-2003, 07:11 PM
alas the wee breath of life seems to be it.. mellow.gif I mean, that could have been done by an electrical shock. *playing devils advocate here*

Posted by: Raven 09-Dec-2003, 10:39 PM
I guess that is the point "a wee breath of life" wink.gif ellequently put, and you are a wee bit of a divil lass tongue.gif

The fact that a god/higher power has to exist is for me a given and has nothing to do with any religeon the bible or anything else on a faith/spiritual level. That is an entirely different issue. I used to think that people who fell back on the god thing were mentally week and then I looked closer at the evidence myself. It really took just a few basics to change me from agnostic to looking for which god but that is a debate for another thread biggrin.gif .

The Second Law of Thermodynamics indicates that without any outside intervention left to their own devices things tend to move towards chaos instead of order. No where in Physics is it indicated that this law differentiates between living and non-living and it is a law of Physics.

I can believe in certain parts of evolution. Natural Selection for example and I could even buy the electrical stimulation idea...after all it worked for Shelly in the Frankenstein story.

The problem I have with macro evolution explaining the current state of life on earth is the lack of evidence for it. If you ask an evolutionist (I'm talking macro mind you molecules to man/Monkeys to man)

That particular science I find to be very unscientific. If Macro evolution were true there should be at least some evidence in the fossel record of transitional forms. Like a Lucy that did not turn out to be a hoax for example. A reason that Evolution is still spoken of as a theory.

Even looking at our lives, the way we try to do things to prolong them. This is another example of winding down moving toward chaos, the system degenerating.

It would be much easier for me to believe that we all just magically appeared as super geniuses as a result of some sort of weird interaction between chemicals and electricity and were now devolving into monkeys then to fish etc ... than the other way arround.

I personally think it takes a lot more faith to not believe in a god or higher being regardless of who that you think he/she or it is than to believe (strictly in light of scientific evidence and all that science teaches us) that the universe and life in it on our planet in particular, is a result of chance.

The electrical interaction theory though interesting seems to fly in the face of solid hard science. And while I do not believe that science has all the answers it certainly can be useful in determining what is likely to have happened and what is unlikely.

My tupence added once again free of charge tongue.gif

Mikel

Posted by: andylucy 10-Dec-2003, 02:22 AM
QUOTE (Raven @ Dec 9 2003, 10:39 PM)
Like a Lucy that did not turn out to be a hoax for example.

Careful there guy! biggrin.gif


QUOTE (Raven @ Dec 9 2003, 10:39 PM)
I personally think it takes a lot more faith to not believe in a god or higher being regardless of who that you think he/she or it is than to believe (strictly in light of scientific evidence and all that science teaches us) that the universe and life in it on our planet in particular, is a result of chance.


I agree with you wholeheartedly. It just makes more sense for there to be a God Who started everything. And as Albert Einstein once said, "God doesn't play dice with the universe." wink.gif Pure chance just doesn't cover it. At least not to me.

Just my tuppence.

Andy

Posted by: Raven 10-Dec-2003, 08:09 AM
I didn't mean like "AndyLucy" unsure.gif I know that you are for real tongue.gif

Posted by: Shadows 15-Dec-2003, 11:46 AM
Just to play devils advocate here:

Where did the spark come from? Where did the matter it sparked come from?

Even the most basic and miniscule thing has to have a source of begining!

Put on your thinking caps friends and answer those questions.

As I stated, I am just playing the devils advocate!!! angel_not.gif

Is the universe and all in it an accident or planed?

Posted by: JaneyMae 16-Dec-2003, 09:27 AM
QUOTE (Shadows @ Dec 15 2003, 11:46 AM)
Just to play devils advocate here:

Where did the spark come from? Where did the matter it sparked come from?

Even the most basic and miniscule thing has to have a source of begining!

Put on your thinking caps friends and answer those questions.

As I stated, I am just playing the devils advocate!!! angel_not.gif

Is the universe and all in it an accident or planed?

If "the spark" didn't come from a devine being, where did it come from? If there was one "spark" there must have been more "sparks" in other universes.

I have to believe in a higher power. angel_not.gif

I've also considered that we are just a science project for a higher life form.

Food for thought dontgetit.gif

Posted by: maisky 16-Dec-2003, 09:56 AM
There are religeous traditions that consider the Universe to be Eternal, rising and falling in an endless cycle. Life is considered the same way, eternal. The schools of thought diverge considerably on the question of what happens after we die. biggrin.gif

Posted by: JaneyMae 16-Dec-2003, 11:00 AM
QUOTE (maisky @ Dec 16 2003, 09:56 AM)
There are religeous traditions that consider the Universe to be Eternal, rising and falling in an endless cycle. Life is considered the same way, eternal. The schools of thought diverge considerably on the question of what happens after we die. biggrin.gif

I do like the thought that the universe is endless and eternal in an endless cycle. I do believe that life, as well, is eternal. I have a hard time with the belief that , after we die, if we are sealed to our family or others we go to a planet where the man who is worthy is the god of his planet and placed on the same realm as the "God" or supreme being of the universe. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: maisky 16-Dec-2003, 11:12 AM
QUOTE (JaneyMae @ Dec 16 2003, 12:00 PM)
I do like the thought that the universe is endless and eternal in an endless cycle. I do believe that life, as well, is eternal. I have a hard time with the belief that , after we die, if we are sealed to our family or others we go to a planet where the man who is worthy is the god of his planet and placed on the same realm as the "God" or supreme being of the universe. rolleyes.gif

You tell them, Sister Reader. laugh.gif

Posted by: JaneyMae 16-Dec-2003, 11:51 AM
Gee, Brother Fitz, it's just that I don't want to be pregnant for eternity and have to live on a planet called Kolob. Can you blame a girl, oh wise one? I have a hard time with counting points for who takes the most dance and piano lessons. It's not eternity through "stuff." lightbulb.gif Or maybe it is...................... whistling.gif

Posted by: maisky 16-Dec-2003, 06:27 PM
QUOTE (JaneyMae @ Dec 16 2003, 12:51 PM)
Gee, Brother Fitz, it's just that I don't want to be pregnant for eternity and have to live on a planet called Kolob. Can you blame a girl, oh wise one? I have a hard time with counting points for who takes the most dance and piano lessons. It's not eternity through "stuff." lightbulb.gif Or maybe it is...................... whistling.gif

Fortunately you are a sinner, so you will be denied Kolob. I will meet you at the celestial bar in, say, 30 years and we can tip a few while waiting for the next round. OK? biggrin.gif

Posted by: JaneyMae 17-Dec-2003, 09:04 AM
Smashing idea, sir! Glad we don't "fit" their mold. I definitely don't want to be a Walmart door greeter on Kolob and I know their pub only serves Pepsi pepsi.gif and Mountain Dew along with the O'dools. OUR pub will not have wee kidlets screaming and running around either. We are the only ones who can scream and run around. naughty.gif partytime.gif

Posted by: kidclaymore 17-Dec-2003, 01:45 PM
I usually don't get into things like this, so I'll only say one thing. FAITH. You have to have FAITH.

Posted by: Knightly Knight 19-Dec-2003, 09:39 PM
im sorry you are at the point where you aer trying to "figure it all out" Im at the other point in my life. I could not erase the existence of God in my life,If I wanted to.

Try to box God in your corner, he can leave you standing with your box

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 19-Dec-2003, 09:44 PM
well, it is a personal thing *shrugs*
he/she/it never made his/her presence clear to me, and I deny religion any right in my life.

Posted by: maggiemahone1 20-Dec-2003, 07:42 AM
QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Dec 20 2003, 03:44 AM)
well, it is a personal thing *shrugs*
he/she/it never made his/her presence clear to me, and I deny religion any right in my life.

Aon, Im using your quote as an example only. I hope you don't get offended.

I don't force what I believe in on anyone. If someone ask me, I'll tell them about God and his love for mankind so much that he made a plan of salvation for us. To some people it seems very hard for them to believe in God, but for me there was no question about his existence. His creation of this earth and mankind, there is no other force that could have created it. He is Alpha and Omega the beginning and end! It's a personal choice that only you and you alone can make. A person just has to open up their heart and let him in. He doesn't force himself on anyone.

Just as kidclaymore said, "faith."


Posted by: Raven 20-Dec-2003, 10:45 AM
I would just like to point out that the original post hear was "God's existence - the evidence seems lacking"

The call from Macy was for some answers to specific questions from an evidential standpoint.

This has nothing to do with "religious" specifics whether you are a Christian, Muslim, Agnostic, Atheist, Buddhist or anybody else that I have left out. Those are totally separate issues and would perhaps be better handled under a thread called which god wink.gif

This thread has more to due with apologetics - why you believe that god exists specifically and what evidence can be provided.

Perhaps a semantics issue that is thrown in here is the use of the word god. Perhaps architect of creation would be a better name, or supreme being. I think that the first question that would arise is did the entire world and universe as we know it always exist or is there a beginning point.

If it always existed - then there is room for Macy's argument that the evidence seems lacking. If you agree that there is some start point then Macy has an answer that is irrefutable and empirical, because from the standpoint of modern physics (one of the most solid sciences that we possess) in order for there to be a beginning there must be a beginner. (no matter whether that beginner is a god by definition or some sort of ectoplasmic impersonal source)

If you are looking for this answer in science and you know modern scientific thought, you will have to agree that one of the main issues in astro physics today is determining if the universe is expanding or contracting. In other words winding up or winding down, where are we in this pendulum swing.

With out specifically stating it they are implying that there was a beginner. The only science that has any substance must work from this standpoint.

Any discussion that involves the physical world always being here says that everything else that science thinks it knows about the universe is bunk, as the basic laws of physics demand a beginning.

So you can't have it both ways. Either you accept that there was a beginning and there for a beginner, validating modern physics or you deny the scientific method totally and go off into a make believe science that ignores physical evidence in favor of something more meta-physical in nature in which case if you don't like the answers that you receive you simply change them to suit yourself.

In conclusion if you put your faith in modern science and the scientific method. You must admit to a beginner. Denying the beginner denies science. It's that simple and it has nothing to do with any religion.

Denying the existence of a beginner (regardless of what you call that beginner) denies the basic tenets of physics and many other sciences as a result, leaving science at best as interesting fiction.

No offense intended to anyone

Peace

Mikel

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 20-Dec-2003, 01:04 PM
Maggie, of course I am not offended.
But I think I am open to the existence of something that stands above all. But as I said, I deny religion any place in my life. I learned enough about religion and church in my life by now and I did study church & religious history quite thoroughly..
Religion seems to have the power to make people very touchy and easily angered. That's something I do not want.
Church is something I am quite negative about because of it's role in History and I cannot see much change in it. It does influence the people and not actually positively everytime. (I am not only talking about Chrisitanism here)

Posted by: myriad 22-Dec-2003, 01:14 PM
My thoughts
*Directed at no one in paticular*
1. No matter what you seek... whether it be God or a god or the druid belief system or the planet of Kolob... apparently you are seeking something. Why? Have you ever asked yourself why you are seeking something and not just content with roaming around as the creatures of the earth, mating at certain seasons, giving birth, continuing a cycle of not real importance, living by instinct and dying?
2. And then, every culture has in it religious beliefs. Religion according to Websters is an organized system of beliefs, rites, and celebrations centered on a supernatural being power; belief pursued with devotion. So whether you be Christian, Wiccan, Druid, Satanist, Pagan, Muslim, and the list goes on and on then you ascribe to a religion. Agnostic according to Websters is one who doubts that there is a God or a life hereafter. Just to make sure we are all talking about the same thing when we are discussing religion.
3. I want to apologize to each and everyone of you who has been hurt by someone who proclaimed Christianity but did not behave as one and for any who have had a group of "Christians" treat you poorly. It is not the way God would have Christians behave and I think that there are a number of Christians on here who exemplify the way Christianity is supposed to be. Look to those on this site who are not judging you and are listening to be your examples of a Christian and what you think of instead of those who were not true.

There is only one supreme being. I am sorry if that angers anyone. This being is probably known by many names in many different cultures and in at least one was called the "unknown God." And this being has many parts. Because we can't completely understand this being does not mean it doesn't exist and because I can't express to you accurately how and why it exists does not mean it does not exist or that I shouldn't believe in it.
Psychologist say we as humans use 10% of the capacity of our brains power. That is not a lot. I don't claim to use any more of mine than that. I don't think I have it all figured out and I am quite certain I understand very little when it comes to life, the universe, and everything. But I do believe it doesn't end with me being the top of the food chain and I don't think that humanity is the supremity. If so, then I will be greatly disappointed, because humans don't have a lot of credibility with me and haven't really shown themselves as a whole to be very stable. Though there are a number of very wonderful people out there and many of them on this site wink.gif , there are that many and more who are not. I love working with people. But I can't wait to work within Heaven.

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 22-Dec-2003, 01:28 PM
well, the stance that there IS/has to BE a supreme being is a personal thing I would say.

I do not believe in it and that's it for me. I might change one day but there is things that I think don't make much sense for me. There is a great quote in "The Hitchhikers Guide" which I will add in later (can't be bothered right noo wink.gif )
It does sort of express the way I think about that matter.
For me it is a clear thing that mankind strives to find a higher purpose behind things, in my eyes we messed it up ourselves though.

You don't have to apologise for other followers of your religion because religion is also a personal decision.

I made mine, you made yours *shrugs*
That should still enable us to live together and next to each other. accepting each's believes as they are and still seeing the person. =)

Posted by: JaneyMae 22-Dec-2003, 05:49 PM
God's existence, the evidence seems lacking? Stand on a riverbank or on a mountain top or hold a newborn baby in your arms. Of course there is at least a supreme being. I know we are not a science experiment for some giant lad like an ant farm. One must just pull their head out of the sand to see it. No?

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 22-Dec-2003, 06:03 PM
biggrin.gif okay, here comes the quote: taken out of "The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy" by Douglas Adams

'The Argument goes somthing like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says Godm "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babelfish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could have not evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and therefor, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.'


happy.gif

This quote is taken out of the context of the Hitch Hikers Guide explaning the Babelfish, which, if you stick it in your ear, you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language.

quote:
'Meanwhile the poor Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything in the history of creation.'


(I love the Hitch Hiker's books =) )

Janey, if I may comment, that again is a personal thing. It might be the evidence for you, but if I stand on a hill top, or just look out of my window down on the Forth I think of the wonders of nature, that something simple like a sea arm can be as beautiful as it is. I don't really think "oh, there must be a creator/something higher behind it. But again, that is me, you might not think so.. so I would guess it's a personal thing...

Posted by: JaneyMae 22-Dec-2003, 06:09 PM
Ahhh, and that is the point................it IS a personal thing! Thank God we can have a personal idea biggrin.gif

Did you say you are Wicca?

Posted by: maisky 23-Dec-2003, 08:21 AM
QUOTE (Raven @ Dec 20 2003, 11:45 AM)

Any discussion that involves the physical world always being here says that everything else that science thinks it knows about the universe is bunk, as the basic laws of physics demand a beginning.

So you can't have it both ways. Either you accept that there was a beginning and there for a beginner, validating modern physics or you deny the scientific method totally and go off into a make believe science that ignores physical evidence in favor of something more meta-physical in nature in which case if you don't like the answers that you receive you simply change them to suit yourself.

Mikel

Not if you postulate a universe that is born, grows old, dies, and is reborn in an eternal cycle. Conservation of matter and energy is satisfied in this way, too. biggrin.gif

Posted by: Raven 23-Dec-2003, 09:54 AM
QUOTE (maisky @ Dec 23 2003, 09:21 AM)
Not if you postulate a universe that is born, grows old, dies, and is reborn in an eternal cycle.  Conservation of matter and energy is satisfied in this way, too.  biggrin.gif

The continuum theory is not an widely accepted theorem among mainstream scientists (or should I say the most likely) because of the following problem. It introduces issues in the 2nd law of thermodynamics heat loss, every pendulem eventually winds down no matter how large the swing. In other words even if the swing is to our perception infinite it will eventually stop all together.

The problem with the continuum is that it stands outside of the observable laws of modern physics and can only be supported as a meta-physical model. In other words there is no empiracle evidence to support this model and it depends totally on the unobservable. With in the confines of this thread it does not meet the criteria for the scientific method, dictates the universe is the only perfect engine, creates mathmatical problems and would say that most of what we know as modern science is bunk. (or at least in serious need of modification)

Don't think that I am saying this is all impossible, I'm just saying that in light of the laws of modern physics it does not stand up. Perhaps quantum physics will at some point change this but all that I have read on quantum physics and super string theory while interesting is unsubstantiated without some sort of evidence of the transfer of something between the observable dimensions and dimensions that are not observable.

While in theory conservation of energy could be satisfied by this model if the universe were a perfect machine or there is some sort of transfer going on between dimensions that is not currently observable we are forced by the evidence that we see to determine that gravity will win (at our solar level) or at the level of the entire universe either collapse or expand indefintily(provided escape velocity has been reached).

It is always possible that the laws of physics are wrong due to a misinterpretation of what is observed (just as at one point we thought that maggots came from rotting flesh and that the sun revolved arround the earth) at which point we will have to rethink all that we accept currently as fact in science (i.e.things called laws).

For now I will be as arrogant as the scientists of old and stick with what is observable and fits with in known law tongue.gif Besides If one is able to accept a continuum universe lacking empiracle evidence(there is really not one piece of evidence to suggest this as a model other than the need for there not to be any outside influence i.e. a beginer of all things,the cosmic archetect, God) why would one need empiracle evidence of the existence of God.

Peace

Mikel

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 23-Dec-2003, 01:00 PM
mmh.. sorry Janey, about Wicca I know about only as much as I read in this forum, for me that's a relatively new thing..

I'm more into general direction Agnotic, with a good portion of sarcasm and Irony mixed into the whole affair. *shrugs*
It's how I feel and think about it... I don't have to Wicca to appreciate nature though, I'm living in Fife, Scotland, right next to the Firth of Forth and I have the most magnificent view right out of my window. I wake up everymorning, pull up the blinds and think I'm incredibly lucky that I live somewhere like here..

Posted by: JaneyMae 23-Dec-2003, 01:20 PM
QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Dec 23 2003, 01:00 PM)
mmh.. sorry Janey, about Wicca I know about only as much as I read in this forum, for me that's a relatively new thing..

I'm more into general direction Agnotic, with a good portion of sarcasm and Irony mixed into the whole affair. *shrugs*
It's how I feel and think about it... I don't have to Wicca to appreciate nature though, I'm living in Fife, Scotland, right next to the Firth of Forth and I have the most magnificent view right out of my window. I wake up everymorning, pull up the blinds and think I'm incredibly lucky that I live somewhere like here..

I asked the Wicca question as I want to know more about it than what I've read in my books. Not meaning to imply a bit. Just looking for a knowledgable soul.

I agree you are one lucky girl to be living in Scotland. That's somewhere I want to go someday. Hope my someday arrives. One of these near years I'm going to England with a friend who is from there and then from there I plan to go to Scotland, Ireland, and the Czech Republic. The latter is to visit a friend and the first two because I want to wink.gif

Posted by: JaneyMae 23-Dec-2003, 01:23 PM
QUOTE (Raven @ Dec 23 2003, 09:54 AM)
The continuum theory is not an widely accepted theorem among mainstream scientists (or should I say the most likely) because of the following problem. It introduces issues in the 2nd law of thermodynamics heat loss, every pendulem eventually winds down no matter how large the swing. In other words even if the swing is to our perception infinite it will eventually stop all together.

The problem with the continuum is that it stands outside of the observable laws of modern physics and can only be supported as a meta-physical model. In other words there is no empiracle evidence to support this model and it depends totally on the unobservable. With in the confines of this thread it does not meet the criteria for the scientific method, dictates the universe is the only perfect engine, creates mathmatical problems and would say that most of what we know as modern science is bunk. (or at least in serious need of modification)

Don't think that I am saying this is all impossible, I'm just saying that in light of the laws of modern physics it does not stand up. Perhaps quantum physics will at some point change this but all that I have read on quantum physics and super string theory while interesting is unsubstantiated without some sort of evidence of the transfer of something between the observable dimensions and dimensions that are not observable.

While in theory conservation of energy could be satisfied by this model if the universe were a perfect machine or there is some sort of transfer going on between dimensions that is not currently observable we are forced by the evidence that we see to determine that gravity will win (at our solar level) or at the level of the entire universe either collapse or expand indefintily(provided escape velocity has been reached).

It is always possible that the laws of physics are wrong due to a misinterpretation of what is observed (just as at one point we thought that maggots came from rotting flesh and that the sun revolved arround the earth) at which point we will have to rethink all that we accept currently as fact in science (i.e.things called laws).

For now I will be as arrogant as the scientists of old and stick with what is observable and fits with in known law tongue.gif Besides If one is able to accept a continuum universe lacking empiracle evidence(there is really not one piece of evidence to suggest this as a model other than the need for there not to be any outside influence i.e. a beginer of all things,the cosmic archetect, God) why would one need empiracle evidence of the existence of God.

Peace

Mikel

Huh? Snow again, I didn't catch that drift.

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 23-Dec-2003, 02:22 PM
hehe, still did not make it down to england to visit my friends there =/

No, problem with implication, I don't mind correcting people about things wink.gif
If you want to know more about wicca or paganism, I recommend the grove... =)

Posted by: RavenWing 23-Dec-2003, 03:04 PM
QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Dec 23 2003, 08:22 PM)
hehe, still did not make it down to england to visit my friends there =/

No, problem with implication, I don't mind correcting people about things wink.gif
If you want to know more about wicca or paganism, I recommend the grove... =)

I second that recommendation wink.gif

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 23-Dec-2003, 03:51 PM
*grins*

Posted by: JaneyMae 23-Dec-2003, 04:18 PM
Why thank you all so much for your polite assistance. We old folks need the guidance! *grins back*

Posted by: Raven 23-Dec-2003, 07:56 PM
*grins*

Posted by: JaneyMae 24-Dec-2003, 10:31 AM
QUOTE (Raven @ Dec 23 2003, 07:56 PM)
*grins*

And I must grin back at ya, sir. That is truly white hair you are lookin at. Eons ago, it seems, it was blonde. Went to the Grove and didn't find what I was looking for. So I will simply keep reading books. sadangel.gif

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