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> Euro's Vs Americans?, Things I don't understand
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Aon_Daonna 
Posted: 26-Nov-2003, 12:41 PM
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Hello people... somehow there seems to be a bit of a "Euro's vs Ami's" thing going on... why? sad.gif

I don't think americans are bad, I like them. I met alot of Americans by now and I genuinely think you are so much friendlier than most Europeans.. I mean every Nationality has differences (and stereotypes: example: Germans are humourless and generally unfriendly - I do agree with the general unfriendliness, it must seem like it. But we are very cautious, we are not sure of ourselves, that's why we seem like this. Once ppl get to know more of us they seem to understand that we keep to ourselves too much. It's somehow inbred in us. Of course there are exceptions.. but I would say generally it's true. Another thing that is implied by this is that we are very polites.. heck, even our curses are!).
But isn't it the nice thing that everything is different? Without cultural differences we would all be the same... naa, nothing for me.

Can somebody clear this up for me?

PS: I don't mind heated discussions unless they become personal attacks. Then someone (admin) should maybe close this threat.

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Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas 
Posted: 26-Nov-2003, 01:40 PM
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I try to think less in terms of Americans v Europeans (the classic us v them) than in terms of circles of experience. There is a sense in which each of us has a circle of experience with one's own self in the center. While I can never truly know everything there is to know about myself, I am fairly confident that I do know more about my own circle of experience than is possible for anyone else. Similarly, while I cannot know as much about anyone else's circle of experience as that person does, to the extent the circles overlap and allow a better understanding of one another, the overlap is considerably more with those close to me than to those further away.
Moving out from my own circle, there is more overlap with family, friends, co-workers, and neighbors, than with those living on the other side of town, in another part of the county, the state, the country, and the rest of the world. Just as a considerable overlap in common experience can lead to a better understanding of one another, a lack of common experience, even when speaking what appears to be the same language, can lead to unnecessary misunderstanding.
Which is not say that those with close ties and common experiences never disagree with one another, as shown most tragically by the American War Between the States, as well as other "civil" wars throughout history.
It does mean that I need to be careful not to misconstrue the words of those with whom I am less well acquainted. While I enjoy vigorous discussion, I think it always worthwhile to clarify potential points of contention. A dose of good humor never hurts.
When not listening to Highlander Radio, I often listen to BBC Scotland precisely to help me better understand things from a different point of view. (Not to mention, getting news that doesn't always get on the air here in the states.)
Having said that, I do tend to think that there is a nugget of truth in many stereotypes, so long as I am careful not to apply stereotypes to individuals. The cumulative circles of experience for everyone in Rochester, NY, while sharing some things with those in Edinburgh, are also going to be quite different. It seems to me that there is sometimes a tendency to focus on the differences (negative sterotypes?) rather than the similarities (positive stereotypes?), at the expense of understanding one another.
To sum up, I try (but don't always succeed) to focus on the essence of what someone is saying, without taking what on the face of it may appear to be harsh criticisms and outright insults personally. There are times when stress or other factors cause me to react more harshly than I intend, usually with worse results for myself than for others. Seeking clarification is never out of order, IMHO.


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Keltic 
Posted: 26-Nov-2003, 01:41 PM
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As for the stereotype of Germans being unfriendly and humourless, my father-in-law (born and raised in Bamberg) is trying really hard to prove it. I don't look at him as an ambassador and know that this isn't true for the mostpart. I don't paint all people with the same brush and I don't really see that there is necessarily a Euro vs. American thing going on. There has been conflict among people within the same borders and not only cross border. Most of us have been drawn here by something that we have in common yet we are definitely not cut from the same cloth which makes it interesting.

Some people have an easier time with the spoken word than with the written word, like myself. This is why most of us will never be able to pen a novel. The ability to fully capture the mood of a thought or situation is definitely a gift. With this in mind, I think that a number of conflicts have arisen from misunderstanding someones intention with a post.

By the way, my father-in-law says that all northern Germans are a bunch of fruitcakes.


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myriad 
Posted: 26-Nov-2003, 02:16 PM
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I think that people like to generalize and compare because it makes them feel better about themselves. Thumbs down to this idea. Anyone who takes a few experiences and claims the entire nation is what they experienced is ignorant. And any person who gets pleasure out of bashing others has a self esteem problem. I have had multiple bad experiences with other cultures of various kinds... but on the flip side of the token... I have met some very wonderful people from those very same cultures. Eventually people have to learn that we don't all fit into a box and that just because my name is Mary I probably don't behave or think like the last Mary you met.
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Aon_Daonna 
Posted: 26-Nov-2003, 02:30 PM
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Keltic, I'm definitly a fruitcake then *grins* but just as well northerners think southerners are a bunch of yokels wink.gif

MMD (your name is sooo long *wail*, excuse me for not writing it down wink.gif ), I don't think I have no humour at all (my jokes may be quite awful but I tend to laugh alot, especially about myself)...
I didn't mean it as VS in the sense of VS (like wrestling match or anything) but why do some Americans sometimes seem to feel attacked by Euro's even though we only try making ourselves clear or don't agree on something. And the same the other way round, we feel attacked by actions we don't understand and by all kinds of other "Mist" (lit. the stuff that builds up a midden). I'm not saying that the reasons are good, but sometimes I just can't understand the motives behind certain actions, I mean, in my eyes American's often seem paranoid. Maybe from your view Euro's often seem prissy and tight-hearted? But why is this so? This is why I asked this question. If my choice of words is poor, then I apologise, but my choice of words is limited because English is not my first language and I simply can't just swallow a dictionary.. =/

I am sorry if I stir up bad feelings with my questions but it is something I just simply don't understand and which I'd like to have cleared for me.
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Raven 
Posted: 26-Nov-2003, 02:34 PM
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I know quite a few Americans (being an American myself tongue.gif ) and I like most of them. But even within the US there are misunderstandings arising from cultural (?) differences resulting from geography. For example many people from the midwest think east coast ppl are rude (particularly NYC) and having met people from all over the US I don't find that they have any more of a propensity to be rude than any other American. They just express themselves differently and it is all a matter of perception.

I also have met and am friends with a number of people from all over Europe and so I am sort of familiar with the stereo types. In fact I had heard from almost everyone (Euro and Ame alike) that Russians are rude. My wife and I took in a Russian woman this year for a period of time and I discovered that what they must have been talking about was similar to that of someone from NYC. (she was from Moscow so that might have contributed) Had I met her and not got to know her I could have considered her rude.


As far as American arrogance that I hear about.........propably the same think unsure.gif

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Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas 
Posted: 26-Nov-2003, 03:18 PM
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QUOTE
even within the US there are misunderstandings arising from cultural (?) differences resulting from geography

I've lived in Rochester, NY, for 21 years now, and still haven't totally adjusted to the cultural differences between a relatively large (to me) Eastern city and the Western small town (Marblemount, WA) in the North Cascades where I grew up. Having done more than my share of travel, and lived in a variety of places ranging from the extreme conservatism of San Diego County, CA, and Moscow, ID, to the extreme radicalism of Berkeley, CA, and from smalltown America to places as far afield as Tokyo, Japan, DaNang, VietNam, and Korat, Thailand, I hope I can appreciate both the things the wide variety of people I have met have in common with me, and the things that make us individuals. I don't always succeed, but I keep trying.
Unfortunately, it sometimes seems that the American jingoists, who seek to blame outsiders for our problems, get more than their fair share of press, giving a false impression of other Americans. It doesn't help that our current President has and encourages a go-it-alone attitude toward the rest of the world.
It is unfair that some people--whether American or European--act on the basis of stereotypes and prejudices. Fortunately, most (but certainly not all) of the people I have ever met treat individuals as individuals--once we get past any initial misunderstanding stemming from real cultural differences.
QUOTE
It's somehow inbred in us.

Aon_Daonna: This isn't necessarily a bad thing. I think there's far too much of a tendency to deny who we are as a people, in the interest of political correctness--Vive les differences! I for one enjoy your sense of humor, even though I must admit I am sometimes challenged to understand it. To me, the ability to laugh at oneself is critical to good mental health.
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Randy 
Posted: 26-Nov-2003, 03:26 PM
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I am very sorry for starting all these bad vibes on this site. Not really my intention, but hindsight is 20:20. Also I am not attacking anyone in particular (That is why I did not use any names in my post).
That being said my purpose of posting earlier was to say that I do not appreciate people making generalizations about Americans. I am not really sure where it comes from. Is it a WWII thing? I am asking not starting another conflict. Does the rest of the world base their opinions of Americans on TV or Movies?? Are they jealous we have it ?so good?? A representation of our leaders? Or a combination of all?? I lived in Europe for a while and generally people were great, but this was not always true. Unfortunately saying that there is not a negative feeling toward Americans worldwide I think is ignorant. Which ironically enough is the same reason some Americans do not know what Haggis is. Why would they it is a Scottish traditional food not an American one. Ignorance is not necessarily a bad thing it is just a lack of knowledge about a subject.

Sorry this is so thrown together I am not a very good writer and I am at work and cannot focus totally.

I love this site and the music here. I have found a bunch of great recipes from Catriona (Incidentally my girlfriend loves when she is in culinary school and wants to open an Irish/English restaurant), I have found so much about my surname that I could not have imagined thru links posted on this site. I could not have imagined there was a Fox Clan in Ireland ?Soinnach?, I have been a member for a few months and I really do no post much, but I will post anytime I think my country is being misunderstood as I hope any of you would in the same instance.

BTW Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas very well said.

OMG i just saw that you live in Rochester, NY. I live in Webster and work at the University of Rochester.
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maryellen 
Posted: 26-Nov-2003, 04:08 PM
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Randy you make a good point -- all of us our ignorant all the time. None of us knows everything. Americans don't know what haggis is because we don't need to know for our every day living. I lived in St. Louis for 17 years and didn't know the difference between a tractor and a combine. Why would I need to know? But many of my rural students find it difficult to get around a town of 17,000 let alone St. Louis- something you have to know in the city.
Also, as a representative of living in the Midwest for 24 years, I have never met anyone that said that East coast people are rude.

Some things may seem rude to other cultures, but the actually are not. For example, in some cultures ( I think it is one in Asia), looking someone in the eyes is considered distrustful, so they do not. Someone from the Midwest may consider this rude and an insult, since we are taught that looking into your eyes means trustful, confident and sincere.


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Elspeth 
Posted: 26-Nov-2003, 04:09 PM
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I haven't noticed an American/European controversy so much as perhaps some personality sparks.

But it is an interesting question and I'd like to share some observations.

I think many Americans have identity issues. Very few are of one ancestry. Many see themselves as Americans and nothing more. But even in that it is complex, for America is a vast land with so many different geographical regions, ethnic influences and cultural heritages. And, on top of that, many move about quit a bit. The New Englander is dreaming of a white Christmas in Florida. And the Arizonian is freezing in Chicago. It is impossible to stereotype and American. There is no quintessential American. We come from too many places and live in too many different places.

However, those of us who delve into genealogy discover not only names and dates, but also the lands of our ancestors. This can create a great pull and bond. I?ve always looked upon the lands my ancestors came from as a distant home, just as I look upon the state my parents came from as home, even though I?ve never lived there. If I ever go to Scotland, Wales, England or Germany, I will be walking the same ground as did my distant kin. That is a connection.

This is where I?ve sensed a rub. I?ve read into some posts resentment that we Americans would think of countries not of our birth as in any way ours as well.

I expect some of that may come from the image of the ugly American, for many of us do not know how to interact internationally, we don't have the same experience in it as do most Europeans. I also expect there to be underlying resentments in some for some of America?s actions in world politics. Of course, that is just a supposition on my part.

All I can say is, for myself, I have always looked upon the countries my ancestors emigrated from as places I wanted to visit, wanted to know better. And I look upon those who live there as people who might have been my neighbor if my ancestors had made different choices two hundred or so years ago. I feel a respect for them, their nations and their cultures, but in return I would like my nation and culture to be respected as well. And perhaps some interest shown in wanting to know what it?s like to live here.


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andylucy 
Posted: 26-Nov-2003, 04:45 PM
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QUOTE (maryellen @ Nov 26 2003, 03:08 PM)

Also, as a representative of living in the Midwest for 24 years, I have never met anyone that said that East coast people are rude.


Uh, well, I have. But to be fair, I have said that about people from just about every corner of the globe biggrin.gif

I really haven't seen a great deal of blatant Euro vs American posting. Of course, many of our posts do delve into the differences between cultures. But that is how we learn. Of course we are going to have differences, but this is what makes learning about other countries and cultures interesting. I mean, why would I want to go to Germany or Ireland or Thailand if everything was exactly like the US? BORING!!! wink.gif

All cultures/countries/people have their high and low points. Let us strive to revel in the high points and understand the low points. Well, that's enough philosophizing for a while. thumbs_up.gif

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barddas 
Posted: 26-Nov-2003, 05:11 PM
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QUOTE (Elspeth @ Nov 26 2003, 05:09 PM)

I think many Americans have identity issues. Very few are of one ancestry. Many see themselves as Americans and nothing more. But even in that it is complex, for America is a vast land with so many different geographical regions, ethnic influences and cultural heritages. And, on top of that, many move about quit a bit. The New Englander is dreaming of a white Christmas in Florida. And the Arizonian is freezing in Chicago. It is impossible to stereotype and American. There is no quintessential American. We come from too many places and live in too many different places.


Elspeth this not to be taken personally... wink.gif

I see what you are saying about identity issues.To a point. Yes the vast majority of the states population are muti cultural backrounds. But isn't everywhere? Just think of the invasions England has had? Or the people on continental Europe.... All of these tribes wondered... and intermingled. There is very little "pure blood" anywhere. Exept with the Neanderthals and they died out....

Yes , as a country we in the US are babies, comparitivly, to the history of the rest of the globe. But, if you were born in the United States, and are of whatever foriegn backround... You are an American. Plain and simple. What are people not proud to be Americans? We as a country have a history too! Sure it may not be "romantisized" by Kilts and woad, or Togas and gladiators.....

It is nationality, NOT geneology. That is where this just gets me.... I have Scottish backround in my family. I know they came from south of Glasgow. Does that make me Scottish? No. Because I also have Welsh, Irish, and German in my family line as well..... Does that make me any of those??? NO. It is a place where my family came from. That is all...

I do however know that my many time over Great Grandfather Gettys settled a little town in Adams County, Penn. Called Gettysburg. That I am proud of. As I am proud that some of my ancestory is from Scotland. But to call yourself ____________ is silly. America is the "great melting pot" of diverse cultures. Very few can claim to be 100% anything in America but American....

It's like this example.... I have a friend who's husband was born in S. Africa. She says that he is English. No, he is African. His mother and father are English... They were born and raised in England. My friend was born in S. Africa... That is a far spell from England. So, that would make him of English decent.But Not English.... Hell, he's only been there a few times....

Sigh... sorry for rambling.... it's just a peeve of mine....



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Elspeth 
Posted: 26-Nov-2003, 05:21 PM
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I never said I was anything but an American and proud to be one.

I just said I felt bonded to other countries because my ancestors walked the same soil and I share some genetic traits with the populace.
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barddas 
Posted: 26-Nov-2003, 06:09 PM
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Oh, I know....
It was just a general rant.... not towards you or anyone specifically.. This is just something I have seen over the years.. whether at festivals, forums, and so on...
Simplifying what i said... You can embrace the culture of wherever! That is great, I do that! But, it does not make you OF that culture....

Sorry Elspeth if you thought I was rantng AT you... wasn't intentional... sad.gif unsure.gif
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Catriona 
Posted: 26-Nov-2003, 06:28 PM
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Goodness, there have been some really interesting points raised in this thread. biggrin.gif

First of all, let me re-iterate (for the umpteenth time) - I LIKE AMERICANS... on the whole I find them more open and friendly than most Europeans (of whatever nationality). When I make comments, I hope it is noticed that I am not rude about your President, I always call him MR Bush.... I have never felt that I should or could make comments about the internal politics of your country - I don't know enough about them, and anyway, they are a matter best dealt with by the natives!
However, I think it would be nice if the same courtesy was extended to the internal politics of my country (and by that I mean the whole of the UK, not just Scotland!)

However, I do reserve the right to make any comments I want on the foreign policy of the USA where it impacts on MY country, or its politics or its nationals. biggrin.gif

Tourism is my country's greatest industry. We have (sadly) felt the pinch badly since 11 September 2001. Many US citizens have said they are too frightened to fly or to visit Europe. The thing is - the risk is no greater now than it was pre- twin towers atrocity.... we have had Irish terrorists in the UK for 30 years! The Germans, French, Italians and Spanish (oh and the Greeks, too) have also had terrorist activity... I think one of the reasons for this fear is because the USA now feels that the terrorism threat is now aimed at them alone. This is not so.... You are not alone.

If it appears that we 'natives' are chippy about some of the claims of US citizens about their 'Scottishness' or 'Irish-ness' or Welsh-ness' it is probably because we feel that you try to claim too much.... I don't mean that in any nasty way - but someone who has maybe 2 ancestors, six or seven generations ago, who emigrated from Scotland - cannot possibly claim to be a Scot! Or a German or whatever nationality may be in their ancestry. Certqainly you may say you are an American of Scots (or German or whatever) ancestry.... but unless you were born in Scotland, or have a relative no further back than a grandparent - then, by the rules of the UK - you cannot be a Scot or English or Welsh or Northern Irish!

We also feel that perhaps many US citizens dwell too long and too much on those aspects of our culture that are only a small part of what makes us Scots. Yes - tartans, claymores, BPC and Culloden are major events or items in our past - BUT they ARE in our past. We love our history, rejoice in it - but for goodness sakes - this is 2003.... woad and tartan are only a small part of our history! biggrin.gif

As has been previously stated, there have been some niggles on the site recently. I for one do not like this - I am not, by nature, an argumentative person - but neither can I just decide not to comment when I see blatant mistakes posted as fact.... I have been studying and researching my country's history and culture for upwards of 30 years. It is part of what makes me - ME.... cool.gif

I hope that some of the posters here have enjoyed the fact that a few of us ARE natives - we love our cuisine, history, music etc... this is why I have spent hours posting recipes, facts, details about history books etc...

Yes, it's nice to see posts about 'what do you think about.....' 'name your favourite dog breed' (no, not really, but you get the idea!).... but there are a few of us who really enjoy the history and culture of our various Celtic countries - whether Ireland, Scotland, Wales or Britanny!!!

What I hope is that we can ALL enjoy the fact that we are all different, and to learn from one another.

Phew....... that's me off my soapbox - but I have no doubt that someone else will want to use it after me..... biggrin.gif

I'd like to take this opportunity to wish those of you who ARE Americans (the majority here, after all!) a very happy Thanksgiving.

Catriona

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