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> Is Islamic Terrorism World War 3?, A few can control many
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maisky 
Posted: 01-Apr-2004, 01:40 PM
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beer_mug.gif I'll drink to THAT my friend! Having you as a friend wouldn't be any FUN if we agreed ALL the time. I appreciate your reasoned arguments and spirited posts, even when I believe you to be "full of it" on specific issues. biggrin.gif

Now, baseball. Not much fun to watch, except it can be enjoyable to watch the Braves get beaten by the Cubs. tongue.gif


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Aon_Daonna 
Posted: 01-Apr-2004, 05:20 PM
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I am of the oppinion that the hatred between West/Islamic World has deeper roots than the Israel-Palestine conflict. It is the way we behave towards them, the cultural misunderstanding and the fact that it is so easy to sway the masses when they aren't very educated.
How do we seem to those people who are poor and that only see the bad things (and probably deliberately get shown the bad things) that come from our side?

Of course, the Israel-Palestine Conflict has an impact. They see that the US is spending large sums to support Israelis of course and that other western nations seem to do the same. And how can we criticise when every time we do the "anti-semit" stamp is being pulled out again?

http://stuarthughes.blogspot.com/ In his blog there is an account on how the international media covered the Palestine boy who was caught with a bomb belt around him. I think it's worth a read.


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Shamalama 
Posted: 02-Apr-2004, 10:00 AM
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I read somewhere once that the basis for the Islam-West hatred started centuries ago. At one time the Middle East was the cradle of civilization. Advanced mathematics, writings, trade, wealth, etc. The cultural center of the world was, once, in the Middle East. Everyone else were barbarians.

Today the situation is reversed. I'm not smart enough to know why, but some have implied that the repressive beliefs of a few religious/political leaders over the years have isloated and stagnated the Middle East. Instead of being the most civilized area on the planet they seem to be the most backward while Europe and America have leaped forwards. There is a great jealousy and envy.

Once Europe walked around wearing animal skins and hunted food using crude weapons, while the Middle East was bathed in culture, wealth, and wisdom. Today most of Europe and America is rich beyond belief, no longer hunt for anything, and spend our time in comparative luxury, while people in the Middle East go hungry. What happened over the last 2000 years?

Can someone with a lot more study in social anthropology give more insight?



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maisky 
Posted: 02-Apr-2004, 10:34 AM
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Isn't the highest per capita income in the world in Quatar?
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Herrerano 
Posted: 02-Apr-2004, 11:28 AM
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Some reasoned analysis has been written by Ralph Peters, I had some links to some of those, but sadly I can't get them to work. I will post them here in the hopes that the problem is some sort of firewall problem here on my end.

At anyrate, if these links do not work, the articles are still stored in cache on google. Just use the following search terms and two of the most pertinent will be the first two listed. Seven Signs of Non-Competitive States. RALPH PETERS

Seven Signs of Non-Competitive States
carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/ 98spring/peters.htm


Rolling Back Radical Islam
carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/ 02autumn/peters.htm

If you do a google on Ralph Peters, there are a great many newspaper articles listed as well.

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Shamalama 
Posted: 02-Apr-2004, 12:40 PM
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From Herrerano's "Rolling Back Radical Islam" at http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Paramet...tumn/peters.htm

QUOTE

You cannot win a war if you do not fight, and you cannot win a peace through inattention. In peace and war, the American response to the violent extremism that so damages the Islamic world has been as halting and reactive as it has been reluctant. We simply do not want to get involved more deeply than ?necessary.? But Muslim extremists are determined to remain involved with us.

We are not at war with Islam. But the most radical elements within the Muslim world are convinced that they are at war with us. Our fight is with the few, but our struggle must be with the many. For decades we have downplayed?or simply ignored?the hate-filled speech directed toward us, the monstrous lessons taught by extremists to children, and the duplicity of so many states we insisted were our friends. But nations do not have friends?at best, they have allies with a confluence of interests. We imagine a will to support our endeavors where there is only a pursuit of advantage. And we deal with cynical, corrupt old men who know which words to say to soothe our diplomats, while the future lies with the discontented young, to whom the poison of blame is always delicious.

Hatred taught to the young seems an ineradicable cancer of the human condition. And the accusations leveled against us by terrified, embittered men fall upon the ears of those anxious for someone to blame for the ruin of their societies, for the local extermination of opportunity, and for the poverty guaranteed by the brute corruption of their compatriots and the selfish choices of their own leaders. Above all, those futureless masses yearn to excuse their profound individual inadequacies and to explain away the prison walls their beliefs have made of their lives.



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maisky 
Posted: 02-Apr-2004, 01:34 PM
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From Herrano's description of the horrors of being Republican:

Hatred taught to the young seems an ineradicable cancer of the human condition. And the accusations leveled against us by terrified, embittered men fall upon the ears of those anxious for someone to blame for the ruin of their societies, for the local extermination of opportunity, and for the poverty guaranteed by the brute corruption of their compatriots and the selfish choices of their own leaders. Above all, those futureless masses yearn to excuse their profound individual inadequacies and to explain away the prison walls their beliefs have made of their lives.

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Herrerano 
Posted: 02-Apr-2004, 01:37 PM
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Maisky, obviously you have not been drinking enough today. tongue.gif

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Aon_Daonna 
Posted: 05-Apr-2004, 03:05 PM
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Just on the general subject on Israel and that it is not the promised land for everyone, taken from today's Scotsman:

No Promised Land for Israel's poor
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Shamalama 
Posted: 05-Apr-2004, 03:12 PM
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The Garden of Eden was supposed to be somewhere close to Bagdad.

The 'Land of Milk and Honey' has people that depend on charity to live.

This is really sad.

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Shamalama 
Posted: 19-Apr-2004, 10:23 AM
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Myth: The Jews have no claim to the land they call Israel.
Fact: The Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3,700 years.

Myth: Palestine was always an Arab country.
Fact: The term "Palestine" is believed to be derived from the Philistines, an Aegean people who, in the 12th Century B.C.E., settled along the Mediterranean coastal plain of what are now Israel and the Gaza Strip. In the second century C.E., after crushing the last Jewish revolt, the Romans first applied the name Palaestina to Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word "Filastin" is derived from this Latin name. The Hebrews entered the Land of Israel about 1300 B.C.E., living under a tribal confederation until being united under the first monarch, King Saul. No independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in Palestine. When the distinguished Arab-American historian, Princeton University Prof. Philip Hitti, testified against partition before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, he said: "There is no such thing as 'Palestine' in history, absolutely not." Palestinian Arab nationalism is largely a post-World War I phenomenon that did not become a significant political movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War and Israel's capture of the West Bank.

Myth: The Zionists made no effort to compromise with the Arabs.
Fact: In 1913, the Zionist leadership recognized the desirability of reaching an agreement with the Arabs. In 1921, Winston Churchill tried to arrange a meeting between Palestinians and Zionists. On November 29, 1921, the two sides met, but no progress was made becaue the Arabs insisted that the Balfour Declaration be abrogated. A group of Zionists met with Syrian nationalist Riad al-Sulh in 1921. The Zionists agreed to support Arab nationalist aspirations and Sulh said he was willing to recognize the Jewish National Home. The talks resumed a year later and raised hopes for an agreement. In May 1923, however, Sulh?s efforts to convince Palestinian Arab leaders that Zionism was an accomplished fact were rejected. Over the next 25 years, Zionist leaders inside and outside Palestine would try repeatedly to negotiate with the Arabs. Similarly, Israeli leaders since 1948 have sought peace treaties with the Arab states, but Egypt and Jordan are the only nations that have signed them.

Myth: The Jews started the first war with the Arabs.
Fact: The first large-scale assaults began on January 9, 1948, when approximately 1,000 Arabs attacked Jewish communities in northern Palestine. By February, the British said so many Arabs had infiltrated they lacked the forces to run them back.5 In fact, the British turned over bases and arms to Arab irregulars and the Arab Legion.

Myth: The United States was the only nation that criticized the Arab attack on Israel.
Fact: The United States, the Soviet Union and most other states recognized Israel soon after it declared independence on May 14, 1948, and immediately indicted the Arabs for their aggression. On July 15, 1948, the UN Security Council threatened to cite the Arab governments for aggression under the UN Charter. By this time, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) had succeeded in stopping the Arab offensive and the initial phase of the fighting ended.

Myth: Arab governments were prepared to accept Israel after the 1948 war.
Fact: In the fall of 1948, the UN Security Council called on Israel and the Arab states to negotiate armistice agreements. Thanks to UN mediator Ralph Bunche's insistence on direct bilateral talks between Israel and each Arab state, armistice agreements between Israel and Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria were concluded by the summer of 1949. Iraq, which had also fought against Israel, refused to follow suit. Meanwhile, on December 11, 1948, the General Assembly adopted a resolution calling on the parties to negotiate peace and creating a Palestine Conciliation Commission (PCC), which consisted of the United States, France and Turkey. All Arab delegations voted against it.

Myth: Israel viewed the territories it captured as conquered lands that were now part of Israel and had no intention of negotiating over their return.
Fact: By the end of the 6 Day War, Israel had captured enough territory to more than triple the size of the area it controlled, from 8,000 to 26,000 square miles. The victory enabled Israel to unify Jerusalem. Israeli forces had also captured the Sinai, the Golan Heights, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Israel's leaders fully expected to negotiate a peace agreement with their neighbors that would involve some territorial compromise. Almost immediately after the war, Israel's leaders expressed their willingness to negotiate a return of at least some of the territories. Israel subsequently returned all of the Sinai to Egypt, territory claimed by Jordan was returned to the Hashemite Kingdom, and nearly all of the Gaza Strip and more than 40 percent of the West Bank was given to the Palestinians to establish the Palestinian Authority. To date, approximately 93 percent of the territories won in the defensive war have been given by Israel to its Arab neighbors as a result of negotiations. This demonstrates Israel's willingness to trade land for peace.

Myth: Resolution 242 requires Israel to return to its pre-1967 boundaries.
Fact: The most controversial clause in Resolution 242 is the call for the "Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict." This is linked to the second unambiguous clause calling for "termination of all claims or states of belligerency" and the recognition that "every State in the area" has the "right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force." The resolution does not make Israeli withdrawal a prerequisite for Arab action. Moreover, it does not specify how much territory Israel is required to give up. The Security Council did not say Israel must withdraw from "all the" territories occupied after the Six-Day War.

Myth: Resolution 242 recognizes a Palestinian right to self-determination.
Fact: The Palestinians are not mentioned anywhere in Resolution 242. They are only alluded to in the second clause of the second article of 242, which calls for "a just settlement of the refugee problem." Nowhere does it require that Palestinians be given any political rights or territory.

Myth: The Arab states and the PLO accepted Resolution 242 whereas Israel rejected it.
Fact: The Arab states have traditionally said they accepted 242 as defined by them, that is, as requiring Israel's total, unconditional withdrawal from the occupied territories. In a statement to the General Assembly October 15, 1968, the PLO, rejecting Resolution 242, said "the implementation of said resolution will lead to the loss of every hope for the establishment of peace and security in Palestine and the Middle East region." By contrast, Ambassador Abba Eban expressed Israel's position to the Security Council on May 1, 1968: "My government has indicated its acceptance of the Security Council resolution for the promotion of agreement on the establishment of a just and lasting peace. I am also authorized to reaffirm that we are willing to seek agreement with each Arab State on all matters included in that resolution." It took nearly a quarter century, but the PLO finally agreed that Resolutions 242 and 338 should be the basis for negotiations with Israel when it signed the Declaration of Principles in September 1993.

Myth: The Palestinians were willing to negotiate a settlement after the Six-Day War.
Fact: The Arab League created the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) in Cairo in 1964 as a weapon against Israel. Until the Six-Day War, the PLO engaged in terrorist attacks that contributed to the momentum toward conflict. Neither the PLO nor any other Palestinian groups campaigned for Jordan or Egypt to create an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. The focus of Palestinian activism was on the destruction of Israel. After the Arab states were defeated in 1967, the Palestinians did not alter their basic objective. With one million Arabs coming under Israeli rule, some Palestinians believed the prospect for waging a popular war of liberation had grown. Toward that end, Yasser Arafat instigated a campaign of terror from the West Bank. During September-December 1967, 61 attacks were launched, most against civilian targets such as factories, movie theaters and private homes. Israeli security forces gradually became more effective in thwarting terrorist plans inside Israel and the territories. Consequently, the PLO began to pursue a different strategy ? attacking Jews and Israeli targets abroad. In early 1968, the first of many aircraft was hijacked by Palestinian terrorists.

Myth: Israel was responsible for the 1973 war.
Fact: On October 6, 1973 ? Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar ? Egypt and Syria opened a coordinated surprise attack against Israel. The equivalent of the total forces of NATO in Europe were mobilized on Israel's borders.1 On the Golan Heights, approximately 180 Israeli tanks faced an onslaught of 1,400 Syrian tanks. Along the Suez Canal, fewer than 500 Israeli defenders were attacked by 80,000 Egyptians.

Myth: Israel has been an expansionist state since its creation.
Fact: Israel's boundaries were determined by the United Nations when it adopted the partition resolution in 1947. In a series of defensive wars, Israel captured additional territory. On numerous occasions, Israel has withdrawn from these areas. As part of the 1974 disengagement agreement, Israel returned territories captured in the 1967 and 1973 wars to Syria. Under the terms of the 1979 Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty, Israel withdrew from the Sinai peninsula for the third time. It had already withdrawn from large parts of the desert area it captured in its War of Independence. After capturing the entire Sinai in the 1956 Suez conflict, Israel relinquished the peninsula to Egypt a year later. In September 1983, Israel withdrew from large areas of Lebanon to positions south of the Awali River. In 1985, it completed its withdrawal from Lebanon, except for a narrow security zone just north of the Israeli border. That too was abandoned, unilaterally, in 2000. After signing peace agreements with the Palestinians, and a treaty with Jordan, Israel agreed to withdraw from most of the territory in the West Bank captured from Jordan in 1967. A small area was returned to Jordan, and more than 40 percent was ceded to the Palestinian Authority. The agreement with the Palestinians also involved Israel's withdrawal in 1994 from most of the Gaza Strip, which had been captured from Egypt in 1973. To date, Israel has withdrawn from more than 40 percent of the West Bank and approximately 80 percent of the Gaza Strip, and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered to withdraw from 95 percent of the West Bank and 100 percent of the Gaza Strip in a final settlement. In addition, Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and his successors offered to withdraw from virtually all of the Golan Heights in exchange for peace with Syria. Negotiations continue regarding the final disposition of the remaining disputed territories in Israel's possession. Israel's willingness to make territorial concessions in exchange for security proves its goal is peace, not expansion.

Myth: The Jews created the refugee problem by expelling the Palestinians.
Fact: Had the Arabs accepted the 1947 UN resolution, not a single Palestinian would have become a refugee. An independent Arab state would now exist beside Israel. The responsibility for the refugee problem rests with the Arabs.

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Bottom line: There are many Arabs that simply do not want peace unless it includes the elimination of Israel. Period. Something you won't hear on the nightly news.

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maisky 
Posted: 19-Apr-2004, 12:22 PM
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Good point, Shamalama. The tribes in this region, Arabic, Jewish and others have been at war with each other on and off for the last few thousand years. This is not likely to let up any times soon.
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Shamalama 
Posted: 21-Apr-2004, 12:51 PM
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Damn my blood is boiling! Someone email me an Oxycontin fast!

Five suicide car bombings near police facilities in and around the southern Iraqi city of Basra killed at least 68 Iraqis Wednesday - including 18 schoolchildren. These animals aren't attacking the US military - they're killing children.

No, let's make it "five homicide attackers detonated simultaneous car bombs". Call it as it is. This ain't suicide - it's murder.

At least 238 (and this number is growing fast) others were wounded, which occurred after 7 a.m. during the height of rush hour. Rush hour. When "normal" folk are trying to get to work to earn an honest day's wages. These animals are killing innocent civilians. And not Americans this time - they're killing their own.

Most of the dead are civilians, killed in three bombings: one near each of three Basra police stations and two at the nearby Regional Police Academy. Local police, not US military. These animals do not want law and order - they want anarchy.

Ten boys and girls being driven to kindergarten in a minivan and eight girls in another minivan headed to a high school were killed in one of the blasts. Read that sentance again until you see the picture in your head. Dead children, burned beyond recognition, were taken to hospital morgues.

Basra, which is usually a quiet region of Iraq, is under the control of British coalition forces.

One car exploded in Az Zubayr and then, 30 minutes later as people gathered at the scene, a second suicide car bomb went off in the same location. The first bomber was dressed as a policeman.

British Foreign Minister Jack Straw blamed "insurgents who are trying to disrupt the June 30 handover of sovereignty to the Iraqi people." Do you people get this? These animals don't want the Iraqi people to have sovereignty - they want Saddam back with his Terrorist Disneyland.

Iraqi Interior Minister Samir Shaker Mahmoud al-Sumeidi blamed "terrorists." He said the Basra attacks resembled suicide bombings earlier this year against Shiites and Kurds that killed hundreds and were blamed on foreign Islamic militants. Yeah, Rent-A-Terrorists from other countries. And still we hear the Libs cry "Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism" - folks, Iraq (under Saddam) was the Wal-Mart of Terrorism. U.S. officials have pointed to Al Qaeda-linked Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in March 2 suicide bombings at Shiite shrines in Karbala and Baghdad that killed at least 181. Ansar al-Islam, an extremist group based in the north, is suspected in Feb. 1 bombings in Irbil that left 109 dead.

Al-Zarqawi has outlined a plot to attack Shiite religious sites to foment civil war between Iraq's Shiite Muslim majority and Sunni minority, say U.S. officials pointing to a letter from al-Zarqawi to Al Qaeda leaders that the military says it intercepted earlier this year. But there ain't no link between Iraq and Al Qaeda, huh?

These animals are willing to kill as many people as they can, and as indiscriminately as possible. These fanatics who want to remove any vestige of freedom and liberty from the Iraqi lifestyle.

In London, Prime Minister Tony Blair told the House of Commons that the attackers were "desperate" terrorists who "were prepared to attack literally the most defenseless people they can find, simply to cause chaos."

The liberal media call them "insurgents".

That numb-nut Michael Moore compares them to the American Minutemen of 1776. Yeah Michael, I bet Thomas Jefferson would have loved to blow up teenage girls and boys.

And I, a dumb redneck from Georgia, has had just about a belly-full of these animals.

They are not civilized. They are not people. They are not human. And I feel no remorse no matter how many of them meet their Creator.

Blow up bombs that kill kindergarten girls. Blow up the police trying to keep order. Sounds just like those Palestinian animals. Cut from the same mold.

But this is limited to Iraq, huh? It's all the US's fault, right? At least 10 people have been killed and 130 wounded in a suicide bombing outside the Saudi General Security Building in the capital of Riyadh. On Tuesday, Saudi security forces defused two truck bombs outside Riyadh, bringing the number of car bombs seized in the kingdom to five within a week.

Folks, get with the program - this is World War 3: "Civilization Versus Terrorism". Do you want to continue appeasement? Do you want to meet them head-on? Do you want to look the other way and hope they disappear?

/disengage: RANT

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maisky 
Posted: 21-Apr-2004, 04:12 PM
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If we weren't there they would STILL be killing each other. After we leave they will STILL be killing each other. Now they get to kill American soldiers, too. sad.gif
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Shamalama 
Posted: 26-Apr-2004, 03:52 PM
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AMMAN, Jordan (CNN) -- Jordanian authorities said Monday they have broken up an alleged al Qaeda plot that would have unleashed a deadly cloud of chemicals in the heart of Jordan's capital, Amman.

The plot would have been more deadly than anything al Qaeda has done before, including the September 11 attacks, according to the Jordanian government.

Among the alleged targets were the U.S. Embassy, the Jordanian prime minister's office and the headquarters of Jordanian intelligence.

U.S. intelligence officials expressed caution about whether the chemicals captured by Jordanian authorities were intended to create a "toxic cloud" chemical weapon, but they said the large quantities involved were at a minimum intended to create "massive explosions."

Officials said there is debate within the CIA and other U.S. agencies over whether the plotters were planning to kill innocent people using toxic chemicals.

At issue is the presence of a large quantity of sulfuric acid among the tons of chemicals seized by Jordanian authorities. Sulfuric acid can be used as a blister agent, but it more commonly can increase the size of conventional explosions, according to U.S. officials.

Nevertheless, U.S. intelligence officials called the capture of tons of chemicals that together could create several large conventional explosions "a big deal."

The plot was within days of being carried out, Jordanian officials said, when security forces broke it up April 20.

04-26-04
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