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Celtic Radio Community > Scottish Gaelic > Scots Gaelic: On The Way Out?


Posted by: Macfive 21-Aug-2003, 10:43 AM
I ran across this interesting article about languages survival and how thousands of the world's languages are vanishing at an alarming rate, with 90 percent of them being expected to disappear with the current generation. It pays particular close attention to Scots Gaelic.

Kinda sad to read, perhaps the real experts here on the board can weigh in!

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/afp/20030818/language.html

Posted by: Catriona 21-Aug-2003, 04:02 PM
As some will know, I am not a Gaelic speaker, beyond the few phrases we all grew up with.... and I am not interested in learning the language. There are now very few thousands of native Gaelic speakers left in Scotland (I posted the latest estimate of speakers on one of the other threads about Gaelic in Scotland!). The first language in my father's home when he was growing up was Gaelic - and although he spoke and read the language, he considered English his 'first' language, unlike his parents smile.gif

It may be of interest that one of the most passionate supporters of Scots Gaelic on these boards is FotW - a German, with a deep and abiding love for the language. And it is good to see that the Gaelic is still spoken in areas of the Highlands and Islands. (FotW lives on Skye).

It is interesting that Gaelic was not the language of the lowlands of Scotland - and, in fact, laws etc were written in Auld Scots, which has largely been replaced by Lallans and the Doric. I am just as passionate that we do not lose the speech patterns that were/are prevalent in the central belt - or the area around Aberdeen and their 'language', the Doric. More people speak Lallans or Doric than speak Gaelic.... even if there is dispute about whether they are 'real' languages, or just dialects of English.... cool.gif


Posted by: Macfive 21-Aug-2003, 06:27 PM
I agree with you Catriona. We should not lose these spoken languages and I believe more needs to be done to preserve these languages. The schools/government, in particular, should take some of the blame for not acknowledging the benefits of learning different languages. What a shame it would be to lose these languages.

I do take issue with the photogragh of the lone piper playing in a field - well perhaps a good representation of what the author is trying to communicate - I just don't like the comparision.



Posted by: Athair 21-Aug-2003, 07:41 PM
I am recently back from a 10 day trip to Nova Scotia, Cape Breton Island to be exact. You will be happy to know that Scottish Gaelic is alive and well on the whole island. They actually teach it in alot of the schools. There are classes being given all of the time and Ceilidhs almost every night with Gaelic singing and lessons etc...We stayed on the Ceilidh Trail which is on the north western side of the island and even at our campground there were lessons every Saturday night. The largest town in the area was called "Inverness" and there was a big article in the local paper about how they were going to start teaching Gaelic in the Inverness schools again. It was such an awesome experience that we have actually been thinking about moving there sometime. So rest assured, Nova Scotia is doing their part to continue their heritage.
Take care
Beannachd Leibh,
Mike

Posted by: Catriona 22-Aug-2003, 01:49 AM
I understand about NS being a Gaelic speaking area of Canada.... but I think the point that is being made is that there is a danger of languages dying out in the native country, and this is the reality of Scotland and Gaelic. There are sterling efforts being made to preserve the language - but I think that the biggest problem Scotland needs to overcome re Gaelic is the indifference of so many of the 'natives' wink.gif

As I said, my grandparents were native speakers - my Dad chose to use English as his first language because the Gaelic was being replaced by English by most of his peers whilst at school..... In fact, very few of my Dad's friends can even remember much Gaelic, although many of THEIR parents were native speakers, too!

I have read (but don't know how true it is - because I am not a Gaelic speaker) that the Gaelic as spoken in NS is quite anachronistic - and that they have added words to their Gaelic dictionary that are not known in Scotland.... And that the Gaelic spoken in Scotland has done the same - so....... it would appear that they are becoming 'dialects' of the original language wink.gif A bit like Americans saying they speak 'English' and the British saying THEY speak English... As has been said in the past 'two peoples divided by a common language'... biggrin.gif

Give me Lallans and Doric, anyday! wink.gif biggrin.gif

Posted by: Athair 22-Aug-2003, 07:40 AM
What they have done is "modernized" it a bit. I spoke with several teachers while there, with about one quarter being recently from Scotland. In order to continue using an ancient language in todays world, they have no choice but to add words for items that were not around, such as a "gas pump" or a "television". I asked the teachers from Nova Scotia and Scotland several questions,including, whether the languages were different due to the distance and was the language as popular today as it was 10 years ago, and they all insisted that the only difference was, when there was a creation of a name of some thing or place that is found only in Scotland and not Nova Scotia or the other way around, and that of course there were slightly different dialects from village to village just like there has been for hundreds of years. The teachers from Nova Scotia stated that there has been a large increase over the last 10 years and the Scottish teacher stated that over the last few years, she too has seen a resurgence in popularity and interest in Scotland. One teacher from Scotland told me she was surprised when she arrived because there were so many people speaking gaelic and that it was just like being in her parents village when she was growing up. Another stated that some highland step dance instructors from Cape Breton had recently traveled to Scotland and reintroduced the art of step dancing since it had all but died out. They did so because of an abundance of requests from younger Scots taking an interest in the old ways.
My father also spoke gaelic as a child along with both of his parents and my grandparents on my mothers side. At the time, I had absolutely no interest in learning. Now that I have four children of my own and have learned over the years how important our heritage is, I want to learn. Luckily my wife and kids share an interest in learning and have all been sitting with me each night while we take lessons. I have also kept in touch with one of the teachers from N.S. who has been helping out.

So I was simply stating in my previous post that there "is" hope. Of course the language will never be what it once was but I believe it is on a come-back both in both Scotland and North America. I was given this impression by the folks that actually do the teaching of the language.

Posted by: Catriona 22-Aug-2003, 08:22 AM
Yes, I realised that you were saying there 'was hope'.... my post was explaining why native Scots ( those who are NOT Gaelic speakers) favour Lallans as something into which we should put our time and energy!!

This is not to say that I want Gaelic to disappear - I wouldn't want Latin to disappear either.... And don't forget, the people you were talking to in NS had a vested interest in telling you how vibrant Gaelic was in Scotland today.... wink.gif

Here is a URL which clearly states that the percentage of Gaelic speakers is still declining....

http://www.olestig.dk/scotland/scottishlanguages.html

Posted by: Athair 22-Aug-2003, 09:47 AM
I am just curious.......do you always base your knowledge on only one source or do you research and dig a little deeper to see how things are in reality. If we based all of our opinions on only one source there would be no God, el nino would be our only weather pattern (which would be putting a serious dent in the theory of global warming), etc.... I believe that we can make different statistics work for how we see things. I choose to look at things on the brighter side and see that yes Gaelic may not be spoken as much as it once was but there is a chance now for it to be brought back to the foreground in different societies. The dialects may not all be the same but THEY NEVER WERE ALL THE SAME. There were, amongst the different villages and regions in Scotland, differing dialects of the language, as you see evident in EVERY LANGUAGE IN THE WORLD. When I was studying German, I was taught a certain dialect and was informed that when I travelled to Germany and went to a certain region my German would be slightly different than that of the Germans that reside in that area. This is also the case in England. They all speak English but if you travel, as I have, you will see that they have different dialects in different areas (which also includes the use of differing phrases). If you will notice, even in each state of the United States, there are varying dialects in each region particular to that state and there usage of the English language. There are many dialects of Gaelic and I for one would be happy just to see the language in its broadest since brought to the foreground along with with rich heritage it represents. There are many people in the United States and in Canada that can say their family hales from Scotland. We should be proud to treasure our heritage and its native language no matter what the dialect and we should look to the future with hope and NOT DWELL on every NEGATIVE statistic we see.
http://www.gaelicscottish.com/docs/language.htm

Amy Davis

Posted by: Athair 22-Aug-2003, 10:08 AM
biggrin.gif http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/663040.stmhttp://www.auhof.eduhi.at/~schurz86/sp/main/referat_scotland.htmhttp://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=GLS

Posted by: Catriona 22-Aug-2003, 04:31 PM
WOW, Athair

You have certainly taken my comments EXTREMELY personally, haven't you?

You are entitled to your views, as I am to mine, surely? cool.gif

I was a bit put out to see your comments about 'if you travel as I have'.... I wonder, where you have travelled? For your information, I am a native Scot. I have lived in London, in Southampton and in Cornwall - all areas of England...... I have also lived in various European countries and 2 in the middle east... I have visited Australia as well as the USA ... so pardon me if I make what I consider 'informed' statements. I may have only put one source on this thread, but I could certainly dig up plenty more, if you wish!

Listen, be proud of your scots heritage - I certainly wouldn't have it any other way.... but I am posting what the majority of Scottish natives that I know feel about the Gaelic..... if the views of many friends, acquaintances and family are anything to go by.... I'm from Edinburgh.... Edinburgh University has one of the best departments of Celtic and Gaelic Studies - here's the URL.... http://www.arts.ed.ac.uk/celtic/.

Learn Gaelic by all means, and more power tae ye...

Listen, I'm not here to fight with newcomers..... If you look at this forum you will see that I have tried to put a lot of information for the attention of anyone who is interested in Scottish history, culture and language.... Just because I do not speak Gaelic, does not mean that I want the language to disappear - as I think I have consistently stated in this thread.

May I ask.... have you ever visited Scotland?

Posted by: Athair 22-Aug-2003, 07:59 PM
Hmmm, Well let me see. Not that it matters I guess but that was my wife that had replied to you lastly. Now on to where I have visited:
I have indeed been to Scotland, a few times back when my father and grandparents were alive. I will have to call my mother to ask the details but we visited Edinburgh to see a few relatives and spent most of our time in the Inverness area. My grandparents lived in a small town near the ocean called fortress or fortrise or something similar near Inverness. We traveled a fair amount through several of the small northern towns. I can't wait to take my children there someday to see the country. I have also lived in Germany and Denmark, I have traveled to Egypt, Afghanistan, Israel, Pakistan, Nepal, Australia, Africa, South America, Japan, Antarctica and all 50 states in the U.S.
I have since given up the business that requires all of the travel and work at a much more stationary profession.
I appologize for the rough start on the board but I think what my wife was getting to was that no matter what statistic or study anyone may produce on a certain topic, there is always a statistic or study that states the opposite and we tend to be "glass is half full" type of people and generally tend to look for the positive. I did a simple search this afternoon and came up with 100's of url's to sites stating statistics and "facts" in regards to the resurgence of the Scottish Gaelic language along with Scottish music and dance. So with that information along with statements from the teachers from Nova Scotia and Scotland that are actually involved with the groups responsible for teaching these Gaelic students, we simply came to the conclusion that maybe things are not as bad off as some may say. Kind of a case of the boy that cried "wolf"
So with that said....I vote we move on to the next subject and let this be water under the bridge.

Posted by: Catriona 23-Aug-2003, 06:30 AM
I apologise for misunderstanding that there were two of you posting under a single nickname - I had naturally assumed that the posts were from one person!

As you say, 'not that it matters' but it is disconcerting to be replying to two people at the same time.... cool.gif smile.gif

I, too, am a 'half full glass' kind of person - I have a passionate interest in Scotland - I did Highland Dance until I was an adult - am involved in Scottish music in Scotland - some of my friends are singers and musicians who are well known in Scotland and overseas. In my experience, there has never been a real 'drop' in interest in those areas. Just go into pubs in certain areas of Glasgow and Edinburgh and you would find singers, musicians etc... and that is in the lowland areas! I promote Scottish culture where I can - but abhor the 'shortbread tin', Jacobite-worshipping that I encounter so much of on the web wink.gif laugh.gif

As you say, let's agree to disagree on the subject of Scots Gaelic... as a Central Belter the language holds little interest for me - although, as I have said, I am passionate about preserving Lallans - horses for courses, I suppose you might say!




Posted by: Macfive 24-Aug-2003, 05:54 PM
As the media typically does, I think the title "Scots Gaelic: On the Way out?" was a bit extreme.

They should have chosen a different language to make that proclamation. Perhaps in the native Scotland there is the possibility that it might be on the way out, but it is not like it will not be carried on in other places.

I have seen some articles and shows on people that are the last person to speak their native language. They say how lonely it is to be the only person in the world we knows your own language. How sad that must be.




Posted by: Faileas 17-Sep-2003, 12:37 PM
Hi Catriona, Paul and ye third poster in here! Havenae had a look in for ages , remember my former nick FotW, changed that due to actualization of cds and favourite song, also due to my move down to Sabhal Mor in Teangue, near Armadale. Hopefully I am on my way now to a degree in Gaelic and Culture maybe or Gaelic and North Atlantic studies, not quite sure which. Certainly I do see hope for the Gaelic Language and as far as I can make out interest in the population grows and quite a few numbers have enrolled for the beginners long distance course which i did last year. Our class is also quite big with 20 students with another one from germany on the other years course and the girl from Colorado in ours. Apart from that , they are almost all Scottish , and 4 under 20 years of age. So there is interest in the young generation and an outdoors amphitheatre was opened yesterday with strong support of Bun-Sgoil Sleite (Sleat Primary School) who performed a song and a short drama in gaelic. The whole project was sponsored by a dutch company and Commun na Gaidhlig, as well as the Bord Gaidhlig na h-Alba and the University of the Highlands and Islands (UHI). It is there for the support of both education and community and i think the stunning setting looking across to the Knoydart Peninsula and to Mallaig will strongly support this. Tha Gaidhlig beo fhathast an seo agus tha i a fas nas motha!
Gaelic is still alive and She is getting stronger! biggrin.gif thumbs_up.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: Faileas 09-Oct-2003, 04:11 PM
Gaidhlig has made a big step forward - finally she made it to official status as national language next to Welsh and English. It`s the eve of the start of the Royal National Mod (Riòghal Mòd Nàiseanta) and the Executive has managed to keep a promise, must be a first alas rolleyes.gif It will certainly help the language to grow in the mind of land and people , and hopefully in their heart as well. I am more than happy that its gone there and i am here to see it .... wow history is being made yeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaahhh thumbs_up.gif biggrin.gif Suas leis a'Ghaidhlig! note.gif

N.B.: The Portree Gaidhlig Choir will compete next friday . I ' ll travel down Thursday morning and i am looking forward to be able to take part on this occasion. smile.gif

Posted by: Willow 05-Nov-2003, 08:21 PM
Just to clear things a a wee bit...
Being from Canada...
The Gealic spoken in NS is a little diffrent from the Gaelic that is spoken in Scotland. It is the same way there is also French in Canada - but it is Quebecoui French - a diffrent dialect than France French. It is based on Scottish Gaelic, but diffrent. smile.gif

The dancing is also diffrent - it has based from the Acadian dancing, and Irish. The French-Canadians also have a for of step dancing themselfes.

If you have been to Cape Breton - you must know of Natalie McMaster. thumbs_up.gif I have seen her a couple times, and she will ask for Irish Dancers to dance at her shows - cause it works - though her music is Cape Breton/Scottish.

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 11-Nov-2003, 07:08 PM
I think on the subject there are a few things to consider, Gaelic was mainly the language of the north, the poorer regions in which the ppl of the courts in Edinburgh, Dunfermline & so on probably didn't have much interest unless it was concerning soldiers to fight their wars.

The Lowlands being much closer to England were a region where the frontier changed constantly. (Catriona, correct me if I'm wrong but Berwick was the Royal Burgh that is now behind the border in England? I know one of them is.)
Also, the Lowlanders often regarded the ppl from the Highland down their noses, simply because their kings spoke a very similar language, they were regarding themselves as much more civilised.

My point is, it is all worth preserving, simply because there is so much history attached to it.
(sorry but this has to come now) History these days is (alas!) so much romantizised and we tend to see the valiant Highlander a la "Braveheart" and forget that there are other influences and other parts of the Scottish History as well. (I don't know if I'm right (again) but wasn't Robert the Bruce Norman, or at least of Norman descent?)

I for my point would like to learn Gaelic, simply because I think it is a beautiful language when it is spoken (written down it confuses me). But every language has their nice things and bad things. A friend of mine once confessed that he likes it when I speak German because it sounds so much different from what he thought it would be like. I mean that is probably because villains (the dumb sort) in films often have a german accent or an aryan look about them, or because of war films where the German language is spoken harder than necessary because of the effect (and because Hitler gave a bloody bad example of German, so did his Ministers).

/me steps down from the soap box now.

Ta for listening

Posted by: Catriona 12-Nov-2003, 03:49 AM
AD
You are absolutely correct, all culture is worth preserving... the question is 'who decides' which areas of culture should be given the money available?! cool.gif

I come from a family of Gaelic speakers. Apart from a couple of phrases and a few 'wee bit sweary wurds' - and the few Gaelic words which have become common in Lallans - I am not that interested in the language. At the last census only 60K were Gaelic speakers in Scotland.

Lallans now..... well, that's a different kettle of fish altogether! As you say, it is the language of the lowlands, used today by almost everyone in Scotland, to a greater or lesser extent. It is a richly evocative 'language' (open to some debate!) - think of Robert Burns. He writes in Auld Scots, or what some modern Scots now call Lallans (not quite the same thing, but broadly similar).

Yes, the Normans have had a very deep effect on Scotland. The Bruces and Frasers for example!

As for your comments re using the Germans as the 'baddies' in films etc..... it would appear to me that the British now perform that useful function for Hollywood, nowadays!

Posted by: Arianrhod 12-Nov-2003, 07:21 AM
Catriona..

Another question for you, if you don't mind smile.gif

My boyfriends family is from Fife ..
what sort of , yikes how do I say this, with out looking dumb LOL !
What Gaelic would folks from Fife speak ??

I grew up to my neck in my own culture smile.gif
Michale was torn away from his when he was addopted at 3 ,
by his Mexican Step dad ...

My mission , is to help him reclaim HIS culture ..
Just incase anyone wondered what this red headed Italian was doing here smile.gif

Its so sad to me that he never had a chance to grow up with all of this ..
but, as I like to say..
Its NEVER too late, to have a happy childhood !!

Thanks !
In Service to the Dream,
Paula

Posted by: Catriona 12-Nov-2003, 08:21 AM
QUOTE (Arianrhod @ Nov 12 2003, 01:21 PM)
Catriona..

Another question for you, if you don't mind smile.gif

My boyfriends family is from Fife ..
what sort of , yikes how do I say this, with out looking dumb LOL !
What Gaelic would folks from Fife speak ??

I grew up to my neck in my own culture smile.gif
Michale was torn away from his when he was addopted at 3 ,
by his Mexican Step dad ...

My mission , is to help him reclaim HIS culture ..
Just incase anyone wondered what this red headed Italian was doing here smile.gif

Its so sad to me that he never had a chance to grow up with all of this ..
but, as I like to say..
Its NEVER too late, to have a happy childhood !!

Thanks !
In Service to the Dream,
Paula

A
Fife is not in the Highlands. They are not Gaelic speakers (or not in recent memory). Mind you, they DO have a fairly thick and easily recognisable accent! Th

Aon Daonna is living in Fife now, although she is a German by birth, her partner is Scots and she moved over to join him a while ago. She had to 'tune in' her ear to the accent when she first arrived there!

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 12-Nov-2003, 03:36 PM
Fife is just something completely amiable =)
It is hard to understand because the usual way of speaking scots (or Lallans) is pronounced harder and since I know my boyfriend I completely took over trying to speak how he does. (His mom said to me a few weeks back: "I just can't get used to a German saying "Aye" all the time).

Gaelic is not however the primary language spoken here (Nor was it, to my knowledge for "long"). The "Fifer" accent is very distinct (even under Scots, everybody always "kens": ey, yer from Fife!), compared to the other accents I already heard.

As Catriona said: Fife is not the Highlands, at least 2 of the (original) Royal Burghs are situated here, and Dunfermline used to be the seat of the Kings of Scotland (Pittencrieff park is not out of that time, but still worth a visit!)

I'm still reading into the History of Fife, but usually after a brief excursion of "Kenneth MacAlpine" it wanders off to the Kings Malcolm and Bruce.

And btw: Fife is called "Kingdom of Fife" (just as a notice).

Even though Fife is not the most "touristy" region of Scotland, I think it is worth a visit. I like the rolling hills, the fact that Falkland Palace is just half an hour from my old house, I love the Forth on every day... I just completely fell in love with it, especially because it reminds me alot of where I come from in Germany, but also being so unique as it is. (Goodness, I'm talking pish).. don't mind me, will you?

Just ask me if you have questions and I will get back to you if I know it, or I'll try and find out.

Posted by: barddas 12-Nov-2003, 03:41 PM
Here is alink for anyone interested in scots Gaelic and a few others.. I did not see Lallans... But I have posted a few links to it somewhere.. I'll try and dig them up....


http://www.rampantscotland.com/gaelic.htm

Posted by: barddas 12-Nov-2003, 03:54 PM
Here are a few of the Llallans site I go to...

http://www.lallans.co.uk/index.html


This is a discussion group on languages

http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php

And Cat I am in TOTAL agreement with you as to Lallans being more than just an English dialect.
It gets a bit rough on this english speaker...LOL! wink.gif I'm doin me best ....

Posted by: Arianrhod 12-Nov-2003, 09:01 PM
Allrighty , Im still confussed...
First off I knew Fife , The Kingdom of Fife Oh thats fun to say and type !!!
was not in the Highlands.. from the map..

I was under the impression that the Launguage of Scotland was Gaelic..
Forgive me smile.gif but if I do not ask, I will never learn ..
SO Gaelic is spoken in the Highlands, and ,,Llallans is spoken else where ?

In Italy , everyone speaks Italian, and in the States, everyone speaks English..
I did not mean to assume... so if someone would be so kind to explain it to me smile.gif

I do want to go to Fife , er The Kingdom of Fife ! come on say it out loud !!
its fun ! .. we are saving for a trip to Scotland... going to take a while, but .
in the meantime, I am trying to learn all I can..I don't want to waste time in touristy big cities.. I don't want to do that here either ..

Thanks for you paticence with me heart.gif

In Service to the Dream,
Paula

Posted by: Catriona 13-Nov-2003, 03:27 AM
QUOTE (Arianrhod @ Nov 13 2003, 03:01 AM)
Allrighty , Im still confussed...
First off I knew Fife , The Kingdom of Fife Oh thats fun to say and type !!!
was not in the Highlands.. from the map..

I was under the impression that the Launguage of Scotland was Gaelic..
Forgive me smile.gif but if I do not ask, I will never learn ..
SO Gaelic is spoken in the Highlands, and ,,Llallans is spoken else where ?


In Italy , everyone speaks Italian, and in the States, everyone speaks English..
I did not mean to assume... so if someone would be so kind to explain it to me smile.gif

I do want to go to Fife , er The Kingdom of Fife ! come on say it out loud !!
its fun ! .. we are saving for a trip to Scotland... going to take a while, but .
in the meantime, I am trying to learn all I can..I don't want to waste time in touristy big cities.. I don't want to do that here either ..

Thanks for you paticence with me  heart.gif

In Service to the Dream,
Paula


In reality, the main language of Scotland is English, which we all learn at school. However, in our home life, the reality is that most of us speak, to a greater or lesser extent, a form of Lallans/Auld Scots or Doric..... cool.gif It is only in recent times that there has been a move to try to ensure that this, too, as well as Gaelic is preserved as a distinct language, unique to Scotland.

The 'language' of Scotland has not been Gaelic for a very long time - and there is no concensus that it was spoken in the Lowlands to any great degree! So the answer is - Gaelic is ONE of the Scottish languages. I am interested in the preservation and promotion of Lallans and Auld Scots. Have a look at at the text of poetry by Robert Burns or Ferguson... they are written in Auld Scots. There is some dispute about whether Lallans/Auld Scots/Doric are in fact, merely dialects of English. As a proponent of the LANGUAGE of Lallans, I would of course dispute that!

In the last census, only 60 thousand people were found to be Gaelic speakers in the whole of Scotland. Most of them in the North, Islands and Highlands. My grandparents were native Gaelic speakers, my father grew up in a Gaelic speaking household. He spoke Gaelic, but English was HIS first language.

The people from the Kingdom of Fife have a really 'thick' accent. It is as recognisable to a Scot as the accent of a Glaswegian (Weegie) or an Aberdonian or a Dundonian to us natives. As AD has said, it's VERY noticeable! We from the cities refer to countryfolk (ie those from Fife, in this instance, even though they have towns in the Kingdom!) as Teuchters (yokels!) A wee teuchter fae Fife is an affectionate term given by Edinburgh folk to Fifers!


BTW....
The trouble is: a lot of the history is held in the 'touristy big cities' like my hometown, Edinburgh.... cool.gif

Posted by: Catriona 13-Nov-2003, 03:34 AM
QUOTE (barddas @ Nov 12 2003, 09:54 PM)


And Cat I am in TOTAL agreement with you as to Lallans being more than just an English dialect.
It gets a bit rough on this english speaker...LOL! wink.gif I'm doin me best ....

As you visit some of the Lallans sites, you will be aware of the blood-pressure raising qualities of ANY discussion involving 'Dialect/language' questions!!!!

Posted by: Arianrhod 13-Nov-2003, 06:37 AM
Catriona,
Now I understand, thank you for your kindness in explaining it to me *curtsey*

I know as far as somethings go, cities are un avoidable.. but for the most part,
I'd like to see more of the places away from cities .. whenever I can smile.gif

Now I better start diggin around in those links...

I wonder if eveyone , is as ignorant to the fact , as I was about the Launguage?
My parents tried so hard, not to let their kids become the type of person , who just assumed , everyone spoke * whatever tounge you care to insert here* ..
and here I find myself doing just that ! Since they came to the States not speaking a work of English..

Well I am off to work, its snowing AND thundering and lighting here ...
interesting morning ..

Again my thanks Catriona!

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 13-Nov-2003, 01:12 PM
Concerning Lallans/Doric/Auld Scots etc and English... it always depends on what you look at. In general speaking English is nothing more than a French bastardisation of old Germanic.
What I observed by now is that in those languages above there is alot more of Germanic words preserved than in actual English (as in Oxbridge English). A great example is "I ken" for "I know". It reminds me alot of the German version of this sentence: "Ich kenne". There are more examples for that, I will have a look (or much rather "hear") and find out.

Posted by: Catriona 13-Nov-2003, 02:28 PM
Yep, yer richt err, AD!!! biggrin.gif

And certainly if you read Robert Burns' poetry, I am sure that you could certainly make a guess at certain Auld Scots words, and would right on more occasions that an English person reading the same poem! cool.gif


Posted by: Annabelle 13-Nov-2003, 10:27 PM
F'ailte Athair! I am pleased as punch as they say in the South to hear Scot Gaelic is being taught up there. Gasda!
I have been learning Gaelic for the last 4 years...My family is in Huntley, Scotland and I'm in the USA although when there they insist on it...when we go out to the Herbrides it is completely all Gaelic out there for most part...so I'm glad to hear that people are trying to keep it from falling off of the face of the Earth...

I had a conversation with BWoods the other night in Gaelic here on the network but had to stop cause our friends felt left out...I can understand their feelings when you are around others who don't speak the language it is a little unsettling...

But thanks for the good news!

Annabelle

Posted by: Arianrhod 14-Nov-2003, 06:21 AM
Aon Daonna ...

Would you be so kind to tell me what you are reading, bout the History of the Kingdom of Fife?
I'd think you may have a better lead on reading material than I smile.gif

I was thinking, books on the subject would be great Xmas gifts for my boyfriend .

Thanks .
In Service to the Dream,
Paula


Posted by: Catriona 14-Nov-2003, 06:29 AM
Paula
I know you are asking AD for recommendations - but I thought you might like to have a few suggestions from me, too!

This series of little booklets is quite good. I've seen 3 or 4 of them.... If you know exactly where in Fife your boyfriend's ancestors came from - you could ensure you buy the book of that village or town.

If his Scottish relatives are only a couple of generations back, it would be a relatively easy task to trace them - so long as you had a birthdate (even an approximate one!) but more importantly, a town.

http://www.stenlake.co.uk/books/fife.htm


Here's a website which you may find interesting, too. http://www.clyde-valley.com/fife/

Posted by: Arianrhod 16-Nov-2003, 12:55 AM
Catriona,
Suggest away , please smile.gif
Knowlage and the sharing of it is a gift, I'd not refuse yours !

I have him digging away for town names now...
Gotta make him do a bit of the work ..
Should have some info in a few days .

Meanwhile ty for the links..
And all your kindness in sharing with me..
All of you ..

In Service to the Dream,
Paula

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 16-Nov-2003, 08:03 AM
I will have a look for you in the titles in our library for you. That's where I get most of the books from.
Also if you know where directly he comes from I can ask in the local Info Centre about fitting booklets and books.

I'm quite sure I will dig up something for you.

Posted by: Arianrhod 16-Nov-2003, 10:47 AM
Thank you both !

I think the fire I have been trying to light under his arse , fueled by showing him both of your posts , has caught fire to him now wink.gif

He is going thru his wedsites and papers, making a few phone calls, to get town names, I want to know anyway.. when we come there... these are the places I want to go !

At the games this year, there was a great historian in the tent, who had just come back from Scotland, I was trying so hard to listen to him, but , his wife was trying to sell me this new cotton wool blend tartan ...
He had a list of everyone who was buried in some crypt , who were all Clan Henderson descendants..I will find out what "Castle " they were speaking of.. and what town that was in.. might be a few clues there as well..

Again, my thanks ..
In Service to the Dream,
Paula

Posted by: Catriona 16-Nov-2003, 05:16 PM
Henderson, as a name, is what we call a Patronymic - ie Henry's son.... Like Thomson (Thomas' son) for example.

This means it is 'claimed' by a number of clans - here's a URL for Electric Scotland, which you might find interesting.
http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/htol/henders2.html

I would just forewarn you that Electric Scotland admit that they do not check information which is submitted to them - so you would need to verify all facts, via other sources!


Posted by: Arianrhod 17-Nov-2003, 07:07 AM
Responded to privatly smile.gif

In Service to the Dream,
Paula

Posted by: Faileas 18-Nov-2003, 07:20 AM
Ahoi Catriona! Greetings from the Misty Isle! My boyfriends surname is Parker and Rogers on his mothers side. He sais that his ancestors came three generations back from the Isle of Arran (stuck now in the London area) and his family is still very aware of that descent. They keep up the tradition in giving their kids Scottish names such as Bruce Graham in his case or Stuart for his brother. I got him fired up to research a bit into family history hehe. But do ye know by any chance where those names come from or where he could look to do some research? Cheers mate smile.gif

Posted by: Catriona 18-Nov-2003, 08:42 AM
Hiya Faileas
Parker one of those names derived from a trade. It is from the Old French - Parquer - game keeper etc...

My sources say it is English in origin - although I know it is also known well in Scotland and Ireland. That wouldn't be surprising, as the Normans were given lands in both countries and they would have taken their staff (together with their job titles) with them!


Oops, forgot to put details about Rogers!

Rogers is a patronymic - ie from Son of Roger... it is English in origin from the French name. Again about the time of the Norman Conquest.

Don't forget some of the proudest names in Scotland are Norman in origin - eg Bruce and Fraser!

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 29-Nov-2003, 10:31 AM
Arianrhod:

A nice book for your BF might be

The Fife Book by Donald Omand published in 2000

It's compilation of articles about the region from the earliest people and the landscape to the Modern Era in the first part; the second part has got specific articles on certain subjects like folklore and traditions, place names, pilgimage sites and reformation. It also contains some nice picture tables.

(Just finished reading it today)

But if I have a specific name I might to find it easier just to send some booklets over.

Posted by: stewart_clan1400 30-Nov-2003, 10:08 PM
I am not from the great country of scotland or any other celtic country all though I wish that I was. I am but 1/4 scot and 1/4 irish and 1/2 english. Great combo, huh?well besides that I would be very interested in reviving the beautiful ancient language of the Scots. I have heard a person speak in Scots Gaelic while i was in a bank and it was absolutely beautiful. If someone is letting this language die thats a very sad thought in my mind. I hope that we can get more people into learning the whole language. I know if it was offered hereat the high school where I live id be in that class fast then a scot can wet his whistle with whiskey.
So I would not want this language to die. It's beauty and mystery has even been heard by my ear and im on the other side of the world. I only know one thing in gaelic and that is "ceud mille failte!" that is all i know. I wish I knew more then that. But anyway i hope people can get it kicking off again and have just about every one learn it like in the olden days. The scots should have it as either a second language or a first language, morely first language. That way it won't be in danger of being a dead language like of the language around in the world. Well, i hope the people who know it fluently will be willing to teach it to others. May this language live on.


Posted by: Catriona 01-Dec-2003, 03:16 AM
I'm glad you feel passionately about it, Stewart1400 - but as a Scot who does not speak the Gaelic - like the VAST majority of Scots cool.gif I would object to it being considered the first language in Scotland... unsure.gif

Posted by: Guest_Faileas 02-Dec-2003, 02:56 PM
Thats not what we (the Gaelic learners and speakers) want, if I understand this wonderful (I am being sarcastic) Gaelic Bill. We just want it to see it equal besides English. We want to see it to become again a living language. As it is now its a language of song and poetry and maybe story telling, a language of great traditon, beauty and history. I and many others want to get it out of there. Saying that, I hear it a lot on Skye and not only at Sabhal Mor, where I am studying. There is a definite rise in interest throughout Scotland. Tis just that many people dont find the time or have the opportunity to learn it. If their interest was high enough, they would make the time tho. But this is a rat tail and the place where Gaidhlig stands now publically and in the head of the Scottish people has got to do a lot with the way it was treated over the last few centuries, and i am not only speaking from the time after the 1745, it actually started with the downfall of the Lord of the Isles in the 15th century.

But something has to happen to get it out of there. And the Gaelic Bill, with some real sense in it , is a very important step towards it. But not obligatory mebbe just mebbe for a year or two and then it could be dropped if the students really dont want it. And if things do get right mebbe we just could it get spoken again to south of Glasgow as it used to be at one point. As for teaching , .... , I myself am still learning but more than willing to pass on what I have learned so far ... smile.gif

Cum ur n-aire, gu robh dualchas mor agus luachmhor agad ..

(Stay aware that ye had a great and valuable heritage...)


Cum Gaidhlig beo! thumbs_up.gif rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Faileas 02-Dec-2003, 03:04 PM
QUOTE (Guest_Faileas @ Dec 2 2003, 08:56 PM)
Thats not what we (the Gaelic learners and speakers) want, if I understand this wonderful (I am being sarcastic) Gaelic Bill. We just want it to see it equal besides English. We want to see it to become again a living language. As it is now its a language of song and poetry and maybe story telling, a language of great traditon, beauty and history. I and many others want to get it out of there. Saying that, I hear it a lot on Skye and not only at Sabhal Mor, where I am studying. There is a definite rise in interest throughout Scotland. Tis just that many people dont find the time or have the opportunity to learn it. If their interest was high enough, they would make the time tho. But this is a rat tail and the place where Gaidhlig stands now publically and in the head of the Scottish people has got to do a lot with the way it was treated over the last few centuries, and i am not only speaking from the time after the 1745, it actually started with the downfall of the Lord of the Isles in the 15th century.

But something has to happen to get it out of there. And the Gaelic Bill, with some real sense in it , is a very important step towards it. But not obligatory mebbe just mebbe for a year or two and then it could be dropped if the students really dont want it. And if things do get right mebbe we just could it get spoken again to south of Glasgow as it used to be at one point. As for teaching , .... , I myself am still learning but more than willing to pass on what I have learned so far ... smile.gif

Cum ur n-aire, gu robh dualchas mor agus luachmhor agad ..

(Stay aware that ye had a great and valuable heritage...)


Cum Gaidhlig beo! thumbsup.gif rolleyes.gif

OOpss somehow i must have been signed out when i typed this lol but its of course me smile.gif

Posted by: Catriona 02-Dec-2003, 04:33 PM
We knew that FotW - no-one thought you were posting under 'false colours'!! biggrin.gif

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 02-Dec-2003, 07:08 PM
well... as far as I know Gaelic wasn't spoken everywhere in Scotland. People are not sure if it was the language of the Picts as well. There is a theory that it came with the Scoti from Ireland.... *my tuppence* wink.gif

Posted by: Faileas 03-Dec-2003, 07:06 AM
Aye Thats Right, Miri. smile.gif Gaelic as we know it was imported from Ireland in the 7th or 8th century, but it also merged with the dialects that were already there. No doubt the Vikings had their contribution in shaping the language. I am dying to learn more about the history. Still stuck with Grammar and conversation grrr Hope this will change after Chrismas.hehe biggrin.gif rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Keltic 03-Dec-2003, 07:56 AM
I had a link forwarded to me for addition to my website and thought that it would be of value here. http://www.savegaelic.org/

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 03-Dec-2003, 02:00 PM
hehe.. well, as I mentioned before, I got stuck into the History of Fife (which is said to be one of the original pictish kingdoms) I read it in one of the books I read.

Posted by: Faileas 05-Dec-2003, 11:35 AM
Thanks a lot , Keltic rolleyes.gif I didn't know about this website ye mentioned. Oh dear another forum to keep me busy ..... lol laugh.gif (Still waiting for a decent entry on the darkover rpg hehe but i hope it will happen soon wink.gif )

Posted by: Antwn ap Ioan 29-May-2005, 12:51 PM
FYI --

http://www.eurolang.net/news.asp?id=5035

Eurolang is a website for minority languages in Europe.

Antwn

Posted by: Maddie 05-Jun-2005, 12:52 PM
You know what makes me sad, reading through a thread like this? It's the misconception and ignorance of Sottish history, even in the home country.

Also, people tend to draw a hard line in the time and say: that's the status quo I want to preserve.

Consider the accents: There were times there were no accents at all till in the late middleages the accent grave was being introduced. Very late in the 17th century the accent aigu appears. two hundred years later the status of before was reintroduced. With what outcome? People are complaining because the accent aigu would be ancient. WRONG.

The same holds true for Gaidhlig, where was it spoken. There were times almost throughout all of Scotland! Do you know who promoted Scots? Correct, Robert Burns. You may want to preserve the relativley young Lallans as well as the related Doric, but why in the whole world would you not want to preserve the older and even more traditional language Gaelic?

To make that even more clear: the language spoken by nobility and leaders over centuries was neither. It was French.


Posted by: Aonghas01 11-Jul-2008, 09:30 PM
I know that Willows post is an old one but she compares the french in Canada with the french in France and she is correct to say the dialects have changed a good amount but Willow the gaelic of Nova Scotia and Scotland has not changed much at all .If you travel to certain areas of Cape Breton for instance you will find the dialect of the Barra people of Scotland who settled there. In another part of the island you'll find the people who left the Isles of Harris and Lewis..I was at a gathering in Cape Breton where I was speaking to a visitor from the Lsle of Lewis in Scotland when he quickly turned to another gentleman who was speaking in his own Lewis dialect ,walked over to speak to him only to find that the gentleman was indeed speaking his dialect but his family left Scotland about 175 years ago...The Lewisman was so surprised and indeed the Cape Breton mans people did come out from Lewis those many years ago.There really is not much of a differance in the gaelic of Scotland and Nova Scotia..Of course we all reilize that dialects are common to all languages even within ones own country. Reading other posts here I must say that it would be great if people would keep there negetive remarks to themselves and only post positive ones but of course that would never happen,thats why the fight to keep gaelic alive is a big one .

le gach deagh dhurachd.
Cum gaidhlig beo.

Aonghas

Posted by: Camac 12-Jul-2008, 07:17 AM
Aonghas01;

I was brought to Canada in 1947 from Ayrshire and have been back twice, once in 1963 and the last time was Oct. 2007. No one in my family that I know of speaks the Gaelic (which is an absolute shame). When I went home last year I was pleasantly surprised to note that most of the road signs were in both English and Gaelic. This was not the case in 1963. From what I observed in my short stay was that Gaelic is making a comeback. I think this has to do with the surge in Scottish Nationalism over the past 20 years or so. The language is not Dead, Dying ,or fading into oblivion. Alba gu Braugh. (I think that correct.)


Camac.


Posted by: GunChleoc 12-Aug-2008, 01:23 AM
It's "Alba gu bràth" wink.gif

As to promoting Gaelic, the first order of the day for me would be to stop the silly bickering about bilingual road signs and do something constructive instead tongue.gif

And I'm all for promoting Scots as well, the more, the merrier! But then I'm not Scottish, so I don't really have a say in the matter.

As to the question if Gaelic was ever spoken in the Central Belt, just look at all the place names with Inver- (Inbhir) or Kil- (Cill) in them.

Posted by: GunChleoc 12-Aug-2008, 01:24 AM
P.S. About 45% of Gaelic speaker in Scotland live in the Central Belt, because that's where the jobs are.

Posted by: Patch 12-Aug-2008, 08:08 PM
I believe you are right about the nationalism. Some friends there know I hope to learn Gaelic and send me things with enough information to understand it and it helps. Speaking it is going to be a whole other chapter.

My paternal grandmother came whit her parents from Co. Kerry and When she was upset she would speak in Gaelic. I wish I had an interest back then because I could have learned the Irish Gaelic from her.

I understand from friends there that an effort is being mounted now to preserve Gaelic in Ireland.

Slàinte,       

Patch    

Posted by: Camac 13-Aug-2008, 08:35 AM
Patch;

Scots Gaelic is alive and well thanks to "The Gaelic College in Cape Breton, N.S.
There is also the College of Piping in P.E.I. (Prince Edward Island) and at the University of Guelph in ONtario one can obtain a Masters in Scottish Studies. In Scotland the B.B.C. has a Gaelic News Broadcast and the further North and West you go into the Highlands the more Gaelic is spoken. The boogers'll no get rid o' us that easily.


ALBA GU BRATH

Camac.

Posted by: Lady of Avalon 13-Aug-2008, 06:54 PM
QUOTE (Camac @ 13-Aug-2008, 10:35 AM)
Patch;

Scots Gaelic is alive and well thanks to "The Gaelic College in Cape Breton, N.S.
There is also the College of Piping in P.E.I. (Prince Edward Island) and at the University of Guelph in Ontario one can obtain a Masters in Scottish Studies. In Scotland the B.B.C. has a Gaelic News Broadcast and the further North and West you go into the Highlands the more Gaelic is spoken. The boogers'll no get rid o' us that easily.


ALBA GU BRATH

Camac.

Though I don't know one word of Gaelic or even less understand it that a language or dialect call it whatever you want that I find intriguing.
The roots of this beautiful language is probably lost in time since there was so many conquerors and intermarriage that it is probably completely different today.

And I agree with you Camac, thanks to the "Gaelic College of Cape Breton" in NovaScotia for their dedication to teach the language which is more spoken there then in Scotland unfortunately.We've been in Scotland in 1999 and then as we travelled around the countryside at that time at least the language was nowhere to be found in the south but as we were driving up north some places where we stopped one could hear the folks speaking it.

On the Orkneys again the language was not there is was english everywhere.
We learned then that Scotland was just starting to reinstate the Gaelic in schools.

It was said that Gaelic was spoken more by NovaScotian then Scots.

LOA

Posted by: Camac 13-Aug-2008, 06:58 PM
LOA. It was estimate that in the 50s and 60s about 60,000 people in Cape Breton spoke Gaelic. Not so many now.


Camac.

Posted by: GunChleoc 17-Aug-2008, 12:43 PM
Gaelic belongs to the Goidelic branch of the Celtic languages, which in turn are part of the Indo-European language family. The next closest languages are actually Latin and the Romance languages, even if you wouldn't recognize that fact at first sight. And of course Latin scholars weren't very fond of the idea that their belovéd classical language could be related to something so "inferior" tongue.gif

Posted by: Cèid 17-Aug-2008, 10:36 PM
Well, this (former) Latin scholar never has an issue with, nor have I ever met one who did. Such biases tend to be passé, as most language scholars today don't hold to those old Anglo- and Euro-centric biases.


Proto-Celtic, the language from which all other Celtic languages derive and perhaps the oldest known language ever spoken on the British Isles, is believed to have been spoken across Great Britain for several centuries prior the spread of Anglo-Saxons and other Germanic tribes (bear in mind that English didn't even come into prominence in Britain until a couple centuries after the Norman Conquest in the 11th century, due to competing with French/Norman, Latin and the other, mostly Celtic languages that were there before it). In fact, Proto-Celtic may be the source of several town, hill and river names all across Great Britain (including Ye Old London, the Thames River and most of the Thames Islands). In all likelihood, each of the six surviving Celtic languages we have today derived directly from Proto-Celtic, with the differences being brought about by regional isolation and varying linguistic influences over the centuries.

As for Gaelic itself, there's some evidence that an early form of Gaelic was spoken widely throughout Scotland and even in more southern parts of Great Britain as early as the Roman period, both from archeology and from the many Gaelic words and placenames found in Roman records (this is when being a Latin scholar helps out! wink.gif ) . So the idea that Scottish Gaelic solely derived from a 6th century infusion of Irish into Scotland is probably not accurate. What is certain is that Irish influenced Scottish Gaelic more often and more directly over history due the close cultural ties between the Irish and the Scots, and thus why, of all the surviving Celtic languages, these two are the most closely related.

Posted by: GunChleoc 20-Aug-2008, 12:35 AM
I think this is a fascinating subject and one I haven't spent nearly enough time on. I have my hands full learning the language as it is today.

It is good ammunition against the "Gaelic was never spoken here"-brigade argue.gif

Posted by: Teriodin 21-Aug-2008, 02:08 AM
Well, (sticking to 'english' for this reply) I have decided to learn Scots gaelic and feel remiss that I never did so before. I was born and raised Scots in the Borders and am a Teri through and through, but never heard any Gaelic growing up.

I grabbed a book on it yesterday and I must say it looks very complex on paper, but I will persevere with it. It would be a shame to see the language of my motherland die out and I plan on doing my bit to help.

Once I'm good enough at the Gaelic, in a few years I expect, I'll write some stories in it too. biggrin.gif

Posted by: GunChleoc 21-Aug-2008, 11:03 AM
If you need some help getting started, just holler biggrin.gif

My advice is to listen to Gaelic radio a lot, even if you don't understand a thing at first. Just keep it running in the background.

Posted by: Camac 22-Aug-2008, 01:56 PM
Teriodin;

I got a better idea. Move to Canada and settle in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia you'll be speaking Gaelic in no time at all .



Camac

Posted by: Teriodin 23-Aug-2008, 03:46 PM
Canada would be fun, I love to skate, but I'll stick with my motherland thanks.

I've ordered the 'TY Gaelic' and another of the recommended books in the sticky post so those should get me started.

My eventual aim is to be able to read and write 'good' Gaelic, I'm looking forward to writing some poems in the language but that will be months away unless the grammar is a lot easier than it looks in the "Scottish Gaelic in 3 Months" book that a friend gave me the other day *chuckles* which makes my head hurt.

I already speak my local Scots dialect, 'English' English, French and German so I'm in with a chance of getting to grips with the tongue someone should have taught me at birth. I also understand a fair bit of Spanish and Italian thanks to 'enrichment' courses at University many years ago and was classically educated though promptly forgot most of my Latin once I no longer needed it - as do most people I think.

Fingers crossed that my tired old brain is up for a challenge! king.gif

Posted by: Camac 23-Aug-2008, 03:59 PM
Teriodin;

As long as there are people like you who want to learn the language is safe. Me it's another story, I'm a bit to old and I never was one for languages. Used to speak German pretty good but I lost all that from none use.

Good luck

Camac.

Posted by: GunChleoc 23-Aug-2008, 11:50 PM
Tha Gaelic grammar system needs a bit to get used to, since it doesn't work as neatly in paradigms as Latin does. You probably remember liaison and enchainement from French, the Celtic languages have taken this a step further. In Scottish Gaelic you call this lenition. And there's also a second grammar mechanism called slenderisation that will take some getting used to, and I think it will be easier to understand if you get an overview of the sound system. With lenition and slenderisation put together you have four different versions of most consonants. I found the Akerbeltz page very helpful for learning the sounds

http://www.akerbeltz.org/beagangaidhlig/gramar/beagangramair.htm

http://www.akerbeltz.org/fuaimean/fuaimean.htm

And here's a list of the sounds compared to the sounds of English:

http://www.akerbeltz.org/beagangaidhlig/gramar/grammar_imitatedpron.htm

If you need help reading the charts let me know.

I have also collected some linguist speak here: http://www.noclockthing.de/gaidhlig/index.php?page=3

Posted by: Teriodin 27-Aug-2008, 06:25 AM
Thank you, those are helpful links.

My TY Gaelic and the phrasebook arrived today, so I'm sure I'll have the hang of the language in a couple of months.

Mar sin leat..

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