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| Celtic Radio Community > Politics & Current Events > Ground Zero Mosque? |
| Posted by: Jillian 21-May-2010, 10:29 PM |
| Mosque Near Ground Zero Could Be Halted by Landmark Ruling 5/21/10 at 10:35 AM "Apparently, the building two blocks from ground zero, which a Muslim organization hopes to turn into a mosque and community center, has been awaiting a ruling by the Landmarks Preservation Commission since 1989. Construction can't begin until the LPC votes, which it'll finally get around to doing soon. Opponents of the mosque (because the hijackers were also Muslim!) are hoping that a landmark designation would prevent the mosque from being built. As Post columnist Steve Cuozzo writes, this is "a favorite ploy of every knee-jerk, anti-progress faction in town: to seek retributive, retroactive landmarking of a building nobody cared about — until a landlord proposed replacing it with something the NIMBY crowd doesn't like." http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/05/mosque_near_ground_zero_could.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+nymag%2Fintel+%28Daily+Intelligencer+-+New+York+Magazine%29 So are the families being the "NIMBY" (Not In My Back Yard) knee-jerk reactionaries? But the organisation behind the mosque has said they picked the spot precisely because of its location near Ground Zero. Building a mosque 'where a piece of the wreckage fell.... sends the opposite statement to what happened on 9/11, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the cleric leading the project, told the New York Times last year. 'We want to push back against the extremists,' Feisal, 61, added. Director of the mayor's Office of Immigrant Affairs Fatima Shama told the New York Times: 'We as New York Muslims have as much of a commitment to rebuilding New York as anybody.' The FBI has also given Feisal its seal of approval after he helped them reach out to the Muslim population in the wake of the attacks. 'We've had positive interactions with him in the past,' a spokesman was quoted as saying. Since the attacks, Ground Zero has become a shrine to the victims, with millions of visitors paying their respects every year. Pamela Geller, executive director of the Stop Islamisation of America activist group, is organising the June 6 rally in protest against the development, which will be called Cordoba House. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1278922/Plans-mosque-Ground-Zero.html [B]Or is the Imam disrespecting American losses and attempting to force Islam into mainstream America?[/B] Wikipedia: Speaking at his New York mosque in 2004, Imam Feisal stated it was Christians who started mass attacks on civilians: "The Islamic method of waging war is not to kill innocent civilians. But it was Christians in World War II who bombed civilians in Dresden and Hiroshima, neither of which were military targets." He also said that there could be little progress in Western-Islamic relations until the U.S. acknowledged backing Middle East dictators and gave an "American Culpa" speech to the Muslim world. [B]What say you?[/B] Jillian |
| Posted by: Patch 22-May-2010, 03:16 AM |
| I would not print what I have to say about this one other than to point out that the koran allows, no, actually encourages muslims to lie to gentiles. It only prohibits them from lieing to other muslims. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Jillian 22-May-2010, 08:22 AM |
| I posted this because it doesn't seem to be getting much media attention. As one article said, if the Japanese decided to erect a cultural center in Pearl Harbor on the 10th year anniversary, do you think it would have ever been considered? No. I feel it's just insensitive at the very least. Even giving Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf the benefit of the doubt regarding his motives (that they are pure and truly want to bridge the cultural gap between Islam and America), when faced with this pushback any true "ambassador of good will" would be honorable and ax the plan out of respect. Going a step further, a true ambassador would initiate talks with the families to compromise or agree on an alternate place to build it. The goal of Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf and other Muslims? To bring Sharia Law to America. And if you think it can't happen-or that I'm being a Tea Party nut...it's already happening in the UK. What's that old saying--keep your friends close and your enemies closer? I believe we are seeing it in action with this Muslim ideology. With the record Muslims have around the world of women's rights abuses, it scares the sh&%t out of me. Where is N.O.W. now? Here are 2 BBC articles: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7232661.stm "Sharia Law in UK in Unavoidable" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7234870.stm "Q&A: Sharia Law Explained" And on UKTelegraph article: "Sharia Courts Operating in Britain" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2957428/Sharia-law-courts-operating-in-Britain.html Should this nudge become a push and shove in America, I would propose we argue that Christians have a right to have Christian courts and all this to-do about Supreme Court justices can be solved....we just won't need one. Just sayin'. Jillian |
| Posted by: Patch 22-May-2010, 10:00 AM |
| NOW is probably busy bowing to obama at this time. The idea that this mosque is a tribute to 9/11 is bull pooh on the part of islam. It is to honor the terrorists who created the carnage there. I suspect if the feds have a say in it it will be built or at least there will be an attempt to do so. As for Sharia law, There are many here who will not tolerate it and they will not have to stand alone. By many, I suspect around 95%. Were we not so busy with the remaining primaries and the Nov. elections that would be a priority focus of the Tea Party. After the elections other things will move to the top of the list. My friends in the UK are furious re: the situation in there. One family has decided to immigrate to the US and another to Canada. The family that wants to come to the US has employment here but is fighting the process. It seems strange that someone with skills that are in demand and have money must fight to get here and illegal aliens that mow lawns and the like come here to live off our system and can not be deported. I will have my assistants (provided since I got home) forward your links to all on my mailing lists and include them with all replies. This is another matter to contact your representative and senators about. Now is a good time because they are scared witless at the prospect of being defeated. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: MDF3530 26-May-2010, 08:46 PM | ||
Oh my God. You are just being deliberately ignorant. Islam did not fly those planes into the WTC on 9/11. It was a terrorist organization called al-Quaeda, run by Osama bin Laden, that did. The hijackers were Muslim, but that most likely had little, if anything, to do with it. There are extremists in any organized religion, such as the fringe Christian wackos who murder abortion doctors "in the name of God". More often than not, they're extremists who happen to belong to a certain religion or faith. |
| Posted by: Patch 26-May-2010, 09:24 PM |
| Islam created those who flew the planes into the towers. Islam has only recently begun to speak out about radicalism in their faith. Though one is too many, we are not close to having 3,000 abortion doctors killed. I recently took the time to discuss Islam and it's goals with a professional man of that faith who immigrated to the US with his family and it was a very enlightening discussion. He still loosely practices his faith but he picks and chooses from the Koran those things that he feels are appropriate. #1 is that his religion's goal is to see an Islamic ruled world had he is "instructed" to convert the world's non believers. Those of us who are non believers and will not convert are infidels. He embraces our Constitution's guarantee of religious freedom. He also believes that if he openly leaves the Islamic faith, he and his family could be in danger as those who denounce Islam are also infidels. His wife and daughters enjoy all of the freedoms of America. No member of his family, male or female believes in Sharia law. You made the statement re: those who would harm abortion doctors as follows: "More often than not, they're extremists who happen to belong to a certain religion or faith." Which faith would that be? It certainly is not mine as we pray for their forgiveness and eternal salvation! Jillian is correct in that the Japanese would never have been allowed to do something similar at Pearl Harbor and a Mosque should not be allowed near the site of the attack on the towers. There are plenty of other places that they could build in NYC. I would not be opposed if they were "given" the land in the city, but NOT there. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: MDF3530 27-May-2010, 12:47 AM | ||
I wasn't saying that specifically about the extremists who murder abortion doctors. I was using them as a reference point for extremism in general. Maybe Northern Ireland would've been a better example. There were extremists in both the largely Protestant Loyalist majority and the mostly Catholic Nationalist minority. But they were extremist Loyalists who just happened to be Protestant and extremist Nationalists who happened to be Catholic. In both cases, religion was only fractionally involved. What I'm trying to say is don't lump the 9/11 terrorists in with Islam as a whole. |
| Posted by: MacEoghainn 27-May-2010, 11:27 AM | ||
The difference is: both the Protestant and Catholic radicals in Northern Ireland have to violate the teachings and actions of Christ and his Apostles to justify their actions with anything from Christianity while the Islamic Extremist can point to specific instructions and actions from/by their Prophet justifying theirs. |
| Posted by: Jillian 28-May-2010, 03:38 PM |
| OPINION: Right Goes Nuts Over Ground Zero Mosque Even though the Imam is a moderate who works with FBIBy Kevin Spak| Posted 1 hour, 49 minutes ago| Share (Newser) – Remember Tea Party honcho Mark Williams' “monkey god” outburst? Well he's not the only right-winger spewing flames over the proposed Muslim community center being built a few blocks from Ground Zero. The imam behind the center says it's designed to “bridge and heal a divide” and says fighting radicalism is his personal mission. “But in the nightmares of right-wingers, the project has transformed into something more like a shrine to the 9/11 terrorists,” writes Zachary Roth of Talking Points Memo. Some of the oh-so-rational responses have included: •Today's Washington Times editorial, which called the center “an attempt to hijack the memory of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.” •An Investor's Business Daily editorial declaring it a “monumental sign of weakness.” •Radio host Michael Berry's charming declaration that, “If you do build a mosque, I hope somebody blows it up … and I mean that.” •A comment, cited anonymously in WorldNetDaily's article on the matter, that it "is not different than allowing the Nazis to establish their headquarters and propaganda office in NYC in 1938.” http://www.newser.com/story/90422/right-goes-nuts-over-ground-zero-mosque.html?utm_source=part&utm_medium=inbox&utm_campaign=story Now for some other "oh-so-rational responses": Nonie Darwish From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Darwish excerpts: "I always blamed Israel for my father's death, because that's what I was taught. I never looked at why Israel killed my father. They killed my father because the fedayeen were killing Israelis. They killed my father because when I was growing up, we had to recite poetry pledging jihad against Israel. We would have tears in our eyes, pledging that we wanted to die. I speak to people who think there was no terrorism against Israel before the '67 war. How can they deny it? My father died in it." "After 9/11 very few Americans of Arab and Muslim origin spoke out and from my experience it took us a long time to get noticed by Western media. Western media still regards Muslim organizations such as CAIR as representative of moderate Muslims in America. This is not the case. Muslim groups in the U.S. try to silence us and intimidate American campuses who invite us to speak. I often tell Muslim students that Arab Americans who are speaking out against terrorism are not the problem, it’s the terrorists who are giving Islam a bad name. And what the West must do is ask the politically incorrect questions and we Americans of Arab and Muslim origin owe them honest answers." Darwish believes Islam is an authoritarian ideology that is attempting to impose on the world the norms of seventh-century culture of the Arabian Peninsula. She writes that Islam is a "sinister force" that must be resisted and contained. She remarks that it is hard to "comprehend that an entire religion and its culture believes God orders the killing of unbelievers." She claims that Islam and Sharia of forming a retrograde ideology that adds greatly to the world's stock of misery. She claims the Qur'an is a text that is "violent, incendiary, and disrespectful" and says that barbarities such as brutalization of women, the persecution of homosexuals, honor killings, the beheading of apostates and the stoning of adulterers come directly out of the Qur'an. Nonie Darwish (born 1949) is an Egyptian-American human rights activist, and founder of Arabs For Israel, and is Director of Former Muslims United. She is the author of two books: Now They Call Me Infidel; Why I Renounced Jihad for America, Israel and the War on Terror and Cruel and Usual Punishment: The Terrifying Global Implications of Islamic Law. For the full article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonie_Darwish Jillian |
| Posted by: Patch 28-May-2010, 06:25 PM |
| That is a very insightful article. Though the present administration does not believe it is at war with Islam, Islam is CERTAIN that they are at war with America! Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Jillian 28-May-2010, 07:04 PM |
| A friend actually told me about her.... Jillian |
| Posted by: Nova Scotian 31-May-2010, 06:38 AM | ||
Your quote mimics someone who, God forbid doesn't want to offend Islam. No. Islam itself didn't fly those planes into the WTC on 911. But it was done by Muslims. Yes there are Christian extremist who threaten abortion instutions but to make that compairson is ignorant. Muslem extremist far out number any Christian extremist in the realm we are discussing, ie. suicide bombers, al-Quaeda and other groups. You sound like you are trying to make Christian extremist sound like they are just as prevalent and as dangerious as al-Quaeda as our President aka "the GREAT ONE" seems to think and wants everyone to believe. |
| Posted by: Patch 01-Jun-2010, 02:59 PM |
| Not to be argumentative, but Islam is the religion and Muslim is the race. In my mind they can not be separated. As I have stated often, not all are radicals but very few have the courage to speak out against the radicals because of fear of reprisal. If your religion causes you to have such fear, something is terribly wrong!! Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Jillian 16-Jun-2010, 08:59 AM |
| This is a very sobering video commentary on the Ground Zero mosque and the goals of Islam. http://no-pasaran.blogspot.com/2010/06/of-mosques-and-men-reflections-on.html Jillian |
| Posted by: Patch 16-Jun-2010, 09:22 AM |
| If you read the Koran, it tells you this! It is not something subject to interpretation either. If everyone read the Koran, they would look at the religion differently! Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Antwn 16-Jun-2010, 02:23 PM |
| So presumably you all would object to the building of a Catholic cathedral near an elementary school because amongst the priesthood there have been paedofiles? By the way Patch, a Muslim is a believer in a religion called Islam. There is no more a Muslim race than there is a Christian race. |
| Posted by: Patch 16-Jun-2010, 02:45 PM |
| Many Catholic churches have schools. I definitely do object to pedophiles but the church does not "promote" pedophilia. Muslim is the race of people, just as Asians and Caucasians are races of people. Islam is a religion as are others through out the world. To my knowledge Islam, as spelled out in the Koran, is the only one that calls those who refuse to convert ("ME") infidels and grants it's participants permission to kill me. I have a problem with that. Islam promotes virtually anything in the advancement of that faith (to use the term loosely.) Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Jillian 23-Jun-2010, 06:51 AM |
| The first interview in this video is that of Feisel's wife. You be the judge. By Karina Ioffee Reuters Monday, June 21, 2010; 4:11 PM NEW YORK (Reuters) - Plans to build a mosque near the site of the September 11 attacks have touched off a firestorm among New Yorkers nearly a decade after Muslim extremists linked to al Qaeda slammed planes into the World Trade Center. The proposed mosque is now awaiting approval from the New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission which expects to vote on the issue sometime this summer. "HITTING SUCH A NERVE" The dispute plays into a broader, unanswered questions of what should become of the World Trade Center site. Some favor a rebuilding to show the city's strength and resilience, while others believe the site should be a memorial and a place of reflection and remembrance. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/21/AR2010062103654.html The next video is Pamela Geller--organizer against the mosque: http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/06/new.york.ground.zero.mosque/index.html My opinion after viewing both videos still stands that the mosque should not be built at Ground Zero. Move away a couple of blocks (since they are already roughly 10 blocks away). Feisel's wife simply dismisses the emotions of Americans against this. I think Geller should ask to see the Quran version by which they preach. If the Muslims want to quell fears, maybe they should consider compromising by never preaching in Arabic--so that all Americans could walk into that mosque everyday and understand exactly what they are preaching. Just my musings again.... Jillian |
| Posted by: Patch 23-Jun-2010, 10:15 AM |
| I agree that the families of those who died there should decide what type of memorial be built in the area. This would be akin to buying land near Arlington cemetery to build a hitler memorial to promote acceptance of what the Nazzi's did in WW2. This is an "in your face action" and will only cause more hatred on both sides. Bear in mind that we have yet to deal with the children of those who were killed by radical islam in the tower attack. That could go beyond anything we have yet seen! Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Antwn 23-Jun-2010, 10:41 AM | ||
They're already 10 blocks away? So its just the positioning of the center which is problematic for you? That actually might be a good compromise, just to keep suspicions at bay, exaggerated though they might be, though there are mosques all over America, and you're not going to stop jihadist rhetoric because you refused one 10 blocks from ground zero. There are different sects, different interpretations of scripture, belief and behavior, but I don't think there is more than one "version" of the Koran? I couldn't help wincing reading some of your links Jillian.....some of Geller's statements are flagrantly ignorant. For example: "We feel it would be more appropriate maybe to build a center dedicated to expunging the Quranic texts of the violent ideology that inspired jihad, or perhaps a center to the victims of hundreds of millions of years of jihadi wars, land enslavements, cultural annihilations and mass slaughter," Geller said. Hundreds of millions of years of jihadi wars? Mohammad wasn't born until circa 600 AD. Is she suggesting dinosaurs engaged in jihadi wars? Geller wants to edit another religion's holy scripture? Fine, lets allow atheists to edit the Bible. Then there's this from the article: "Local political leaders turned out in support of the community last month after Mark Williams of the conservative Tea Party Express reportedly said the mosque was for "the worship of the terrorists' monkey-god." Monkey god? Is he kidding? If this is the level of insight we're to respect then lets all go watch celebrity bowling. We'll be equally enlightened. Why are people as ignorant as Geller and Williams worth taking seriously? Muslim "preaching" might be in a varitey of languages including English. They just read the Koran in Arabic since that's the language in which its written, and any American can pick up an English translation and find out what it contains. Some Muslims don't know Arabic, particularly the classical literary Arabic of the Koran. At any rate, one of your articles said they were happy to translate their prayers into English for Ms. Geller or anyone else who's interested. |
| Posted by: Patch 23-Jun-2010, 12:50 PM |
| I have the Koran translated by an Imam on a site for those from around the US of that faith. I assume that man knew what he was talking about. Then again since they are allowed to lie to gentiles but not those of their own faith, who knows. Their own religion brands them as not being trust worthy!! Considering the relatives of the 9/11 victims, it involves a lot of people. Mohammed could be actually considered a monkey prophet when one considers the beliefs he espoused. Sex with very young girls, come on!! Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Jillian 23-Jun-2010, 06:03 PM |
| Antwn-- Yes it is the positioning at Ground Zero that bothers me the most. I do not agree w/you regarding the Quran as I have read verses that specifically target non-believers. I may not like having mosques in my town, but they have the right to have them. That's my issue and I'll admit it. But I really resent the insensitivity of them placing a major mosque at Ground Zero. Perhaps these videos will provide more insight. Both are converted Muslims. The first is Walid Shoebat, former terrorist. The second is Brigitte Gabriel a converted Muslim who experienced Hamas in Lebanon. "Former terrorist Walid Shoebat, reveals disturbing contradictions between Ground Zero mosque founder Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf’s English statements and his Arabic comments. Abdul Rauf directly contradicted his New York Daily News article from earlier this week, and, in the process, lied to New York City about his true intentions." http://www.pjtv.com/?cmd=mpg&mpid=111&load=3660 Brigitte Gabriel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpHOt_u2sTA&feature=player_embedded Jillian |
| Posted by: Antwn 24-Jun-2010, 12:11 PM |
| Well the video from Walid Shoebat was interesting. |
| Posted by: Dogshirt 24-Jun-2010, 02:48 PM | ||
That must be based on "Man hours", just as a 40 hour week on our jobs constitute several hundred "Man hours". Or it might just be RECTAL MATH(Pulling numbers out of your a$$)! I'm inclined to the later.  |
| Posted by: Jillian 07-Jul-2010, 06:12 AM |
| London fighting a mega mosque near the new olympic stadium being built for the 2012 olympics. http://www.pjtv.com/?cmd=mpg&mpid=111&load=3597 |
| Posted by: Jillian 07-Jul-2010, 06:28 AM |
| [QUOTE]Boston Globe / Opinion / Op-ed Jeff Jacoby A mosque at ground zero? By Jeff Jacoby Globe Columnist / June 6, 2010 IS GROUND ZERO the right place for a major new mosque and Islamic cultural center? Cordoba House is a 15-story, $100 million development to be built just 600 feet from where the World Trade Center stood; the plans include the mosque, a 500-seat auditorium, swimming pool, restaurant, and bookstore. The prospect of an Islamic center so close to ground zero is, not surprisingly, controversial. Many relatives of Sept. 11 victims are strongly opposed. One group, 9/11 Families for a Safe & Strong America, calls Cordoba House “a gross insult to the memory of those who were killed on that terrible day.’’ But the project also has strong political support. New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg and Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer are among its backers, and Cordoba House was endorsed by lower Manhattan’s Community Board No. 1 in a near-unanimous vote last month. Of particular interest are the views of leading Muslim moderates — Muslims known for their commitment to tolerance and pluralism, and for their opposition to all forms of radical Islam. One such individual is Zuhdi Jasser, a physician, US Navy veteran, and founder of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy. Jasser reminisced last week about his family’s history of building mosques in the heartland communities where they lived. His parents, Syrian immigrants to the United States, helped create the Fox Valley Islamic Center in Neenah, Wis., in 1980. “This was during the Iranian hostage crisis,’’ he recalled, “and some of the local residents wanted the Zoning Commission to prevent the mosque from going forward.’’ But the commissioners gave their blessing to the project, and the modest mosque — the construction budget was just $80,000 — became part of the neighborhood. Later the family later moved to western Arkansas, where they joined with others to create the Islamic Center of Fort Smith. As recently as March, Jasser came out in support of Muslims in Sheboygan, Wis., whose plans for a new place of worship were meeting with vocal resistance. But he adamantly opposes the ground zero mosque. “For us, a mosque was always a place to pray, to be together on holidays — not a way to make an ostentatious architectural statement,’’ Jasser said. “Ground zero shouldn’t be about promoting Islam. It’s the place where war was declared on us as Americans.’’ To use that space for Muslim outreach, he argues, is “the worst form of misjudgment.’’ Equally opposed is Stephen Suleyman Schwartz, a devout Muslim and director of the Center for Islamic Pluralism in Washington. Schwartz notes that the spiritual leader of the Cordoba Initiative, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, describes himself as a Sufi — a Muslim focused on Islamic mysticism and spiritual wisdom. But “building a 15-story Islamic center at ground zero isn’t something a Sufi would do,’’ according to Schwartz, also a practitioner of Sufism. “Sufism is supposed to be based on sensitivity toward others,’’ yet Cordoba House comes across as “grossly insensitive.’’ He rejects Rauf’s stance that a highly visible Muslim presence at ground zero is the way to make a statement opposing what happened on 9/11. Better, in his view, is the approach of many Muslims “who hate terrorism and who have gone privately to the site and recited prayers for the dead silently and unperceived by others.’’ Ali al-Ahmed, a Saudi native who founded the Institute for Gulf Affairs and is an advocate for civil rights and religious freedom in the Middle East, hopes for the best from Cordoba House. “A mosque should be a good thing,’’ he told me. But he worries about the number of Americans who may be “hurt and upset’’ by the project, and wonders whether a mosque is really the best thing for Muslims to build so close to ground zero. Why not something less emotionally charged, he asks — a social-service agency, perhaps, or an assisted living center for the elderly? Muslims must take the feelings of Americans into account, Ahmed contends. He cites no less an Islamic authority than the Imam Ali, Mohammed’s influential son-in-law. “Reconciliation of your differences,’’ says Imam Ali in the collection of teachings known as the Peak of Eloquence, “is more worthy than all prayers and fasting.’’ Will a mosque at ground zero make reconciliation more likely? Or will it needlessly rub salt in the unhealed wounds of 9/11? Jeff Jacoby can be reached at [email protected]. [QUOTE] Jillian |
| Posted by: Jillian 07-Jul-2010, 06:34 AM |
| Ground Zero mosque hearings to begin next week -- July 13th. I'll be curious to see how much media coverage this will get since I've heard relatively NOTHING about it in the lamestream media. If they feel so good about this construction...then tell me...why so tight-lipped about the media coverage/ http://www.observer.com/2010/politics/city-host-controversial-ground-zero-mosque-hearings-larger-venue-accomodate-angry-crow Jillian |
| Posted by: Patch 07-Jul-2010, 09:59 AM | ||
I am not shocked that this would happen in NY. Were the people of my community in charge it would not even be considered. We are kind enough that we would offer them an option though. I am also shocked that NY citizens even polled at 52% against it, or then maybe not. Here there would be near 100% opposition after a type 09/11 attack. I can not comprehend why they would not expect hate and anger. Had Catholics destroyed the towers and killed over 3,000 people I would EXPECT people to hate me though I did not do it, but only suported the religion that did. That was an excellent link! Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Antwn 07-Jul-2010, 11:41 AM | ||
Some people have a broader mind than you Patch. I don't hate Catholics because of hundreds of worldwide cases of child abuse and subsequent coverups. I don't hate Catholics because of the inquisition, where historians estimate between 40,000 and 100,000 people were burned alive in the public square for supposed witchcraft in Europe. I don't hate Catholics for their suppression of birth control, stem cell research and long history of the suppression of scientific advancement since Gallileo. Stupidity and ignorance inspires anger yes, and befuddlement as to why a billion people remain believers, but both gullibility and easy justifications for atrocities have been prevelent in all human civilizations, despite the word "civil" in that term, and none have been immune. There are some people who can actually make a distinction between an individual Catholic and the sordid history of the church itself - some people who actually fail to lump all individuals who believe the truth of a specific religion with the mistakes or even atrocities made by those in authority over that religion. The fact that there are still roughly a billion Catholics amid such history is evidence that Catholics themselves can make such distinctions. If you're unwilling to make them yourself, that's your problem. I'm just reminding you that some are willing to exercise their minds with a greater degree of nuance than the degree for which you're willing to give them credit. Regarding the hearing Jillian mentioned, its a HEARING not a final judgement. Public officials have an obligation to hear a request, and its a hearing for the proposed demolition of the existing building where the mosque might stand. That's not the same thing as approval of the mosque. This is the 7th of July, six days from the hearing date. To presume that the media will not cover it seems to me to be premature. |
| Posted by: Patch 07-Jul-2010, 12:36 PM |
| I could care less what happened a hundred years ago or longer. I am familiar with what happened but I am intelligent enough not to dwell on it. Actually, there was no discussion of "history" here until your post and it is not referenced in the topic. We are not here to discuss history but "Replying to Ground Zero Mosque?" . 9/11 is now! The survivors of 9/11 are now! The ill will toward muslims and the islamic faith has diminished little if any and maybe has even gotten worse since B. Hussein Obama began his love fest with them. There is considerable ill will within the Catholic community about the actions of it's priests. Locally, and by that I mean a 40 mile radius or so, there are 11 protestant ministers either in prison or awaiting trial for child abuse. I would estimate that there are close to a hundred churches of various size in that area. Mostly they are "youth" ministers. We also have two school teachers in the mix. It seems that the pedophiles are more prevalent everywhere in vocations which deal with children where they would of course be drawn by their depravity. I expect little to come from the hearing unless they are "overwhelmed" by protestors. As there were 1,000 once, with publicity there may be many more now. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Antwn 07-Jul-2010, 03:52 PM | ||
You missed the point by getting hung up on the examples given to elucidate it. I was responding to your expectation to be hated as a member of a religion because others of that faith behave badly, and made the point that others are able to make distinctions between singular follower and aggregate belief, something you do not make yourself and stated that you would not expect to be made had members of your religion been responsible for 9/11. Besides, not all examples were ancient history. |
| Posted by: Patch 07-Jul-2010, 05:30 PM |
| If members of my faith had conspired and killed 3,000 plus Americans I would expect to be hated and reviled by association. I would expaect that to me magnified if my religion taught me to kill those who did not convert to my belief. Try to be a Christian missionary in an islamic country! It greatly shortens your life expectancy. They have declared holy jihad (war) on us and our leadership is too stupid to realize it! You do not understand what the koran instructs Those of islam to do. I doubt you could find a hundreth of one percent of the victims families who want the mosque there. They are the ones who should be honored. I see no reason to honor the muslims killed by their own. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Antwn 07-Jul-2010, 05:57 PM | ||
Sorry Sir, but I think guilt by association is an unfortunate and unsupportable stance, but of course I can't change your mind and won't attempt it. I was only pointing out the fact that not everyone shares that attitude. |
| Posted by: TheCarolinaScotsman 07-Jul-2010, 07:30 PM |
| I would simply say hate is what got us here, it will not get us out. And yes, sterotyping an entire group from the actions of a fraction is prejudice, bigotry and hatred. If one doesn't like that label, I'm sorry, but it doesn't change what you are. I stopped in for a moment to see what was happening; I see it is still the same old hate filled diatribe, so I'll take another break and ease my blood pressure. |
| Posted by: Antwn 07-Jul-2010, 08:27 PM | ||
Thank you Sir, I agree. For the same reason I have not been a part of this forum for a while. Sometimes I just have to chime in because there never is an alternate viewpoint and true discussion has become all but impossible in any practical sense, so I'm not going to bother. The forum has become someone's blog. Yes, it hasn't changed at all. |
| Posted by: stoirmeil 07-Jul-2010, 08:45 PM | ||||
What these guys said.  |
| Posted by: Dogshirt 07-Jul-2010, 09:04 PM |
| There are more important things in my life than where they put this mosque. I think that the area is not perhaps the best place for a mosque OR a church, but that is based more on the surrounding neighborhood than anything else. I have never been to NYC (and have no desire to do so), but isn't a business district? I don't think it fits in. |
| Posted by: Patch 07-Jul-2010, 10:00 PM |
| It is "in your face" to the relatives of the 3000 plus who died there. That is why it should be moved. Beyond that Dogshirt is right, there are more important things out here, the economy being paramount. Read the Koran. it is not prejudice, it is safety! Actually, prejudice is the dismissal of charges by the justice dept against the black panthers who intimidated voters in Pa. Does that make the left prejudiced? Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Jillian 08-Jul-2010, 04:56 AM |
| My posts on this subject weren't meant for hate speech. I've followed this subject and my concern lies with the intent behind having a mosque built at Ground Zero and the ongoing practice of Islam in building mosques in areas where they have --or intend to conquer. Englanders recently put their collective foot down to stop a giant mosque from being built by the new olympic stadium. If Christians attempted to build mega churches in Bagdad, I would certainly understand the resentment of the Iraquis who live there....and rightfully there would be resentment. Jillian |
| Posted by: Patch 08-Jul-2010, 06:58 AM | ||
There would be a lot of headless Christians in Bagdad there would quickly be a lot of headless Christian bodies laying around. It seems now that the left quickly calls anyone who is not in agreement with them racist and bigoted. Usually when charges of racism are randomly leveled, the group leveling the charges are themselves racist. By accusing other it draws attention away from their own dark secrets. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Antwn 08-Jul-2010, 11:00 AM | ||
I believe you Jillian, at least your first sentence. |
| Posted by: Jillian 08-Jul-2010, 03:49 PM |
| Thanks Antwn. I was hoping it wasn't coming off that way. Jillian |
| Posted by: Jillian 14-Jul-2010, 07:17 AM | ||||
| More news regarding the Ground Zero Mosque: [/QUOTE]The Huffington Post, July 14, 2010 by Beth Fouhy AP 7/12/10 (NEW YORK) — The ranking Republican on the House Homeland Security Committee said Monday he favors an investigation into the funding of a proposed mosque near ground zero. In an interview with The Associated Press, Rep. Peter King raised concerns about the sources of funding for the proposed $100 million mosque, just blocks away from the site of the Sept. 11 attacks, where nearly 3,000 Americans died at the hands of Islamic terrorists. "It's a house of worship, but we are at war with al-Qaida," King told the AP. "I think the 9/11 families have a right to know where the funding comes from; I think there are significant questions." The mosque is a project of the American Society for Muslim Advancement and the Cordoba Institute, which promotes cross-cultural understanding between Islam and the West. Cordoba's director, Imam Faisel Abdul Rauf, has refused to disclose the sources of funding for the mosque and once suggested in a television interview that U.S. policies contributed to the 9/11 attacks. King's views differ sharply from those of New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who said Monday it would be un-American to investigate the mosque. Bloomberg, a Republican-turned-independent, has backed the mosque since the project came under development, as do numerous other community and political leaders including Attorney General Andrew Cuomo, the Democratic nominee for governor. King is a supporter of Republican Rick Lazio's campaign for governor. Lazio opposes the mosque and has called on Cuomo to look into its funding. Lazio was scheduled to testify Tuesday on the mosque at a hearing of the New York City Landmarks Commission. Cuomo has said he would investigate the mosque if there is evidence of wrongdoing or criminal behavior but that no such evidence has been put forth. Even though a mosque is supposed to be a religious setting, ground zero may not be an appropriate spot for this or any proposed mosque, King said. "Right at this moment in history, it's bad form to put it there," he said. "There are things you are allowed to do, but that aren't appropriate to do." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/13/rep-king-investigate-grou_n_643925.html
Dozens speak out against planned mosque near ground zero at NYC hearing on landmark status Published July 13, 2010 Associated Press Dozens of opponents and some supporters of a mosque planned near ground zero attended a raucous hearing Tuesday about whether the building where the Muslim place of worship would be created warrants designation as a city landmark and should be protected from development. Republican gubernatorial candidate Rick Lazio, who has sought an investigation into the funding of the mosque, was among the witnesses who testified in support of giving the building landmark status, which could complicate plans by Muslim groups to develop a community center and mosque there. After noting the lower Manhattan building's history and architectural significance, Lazio said it also warranted landmark designation because on Sept. 11, 2001, it was struck by airplane debris from the terror attacks against the nearby World Trade Center. That connection to the attacks, he said, made it "a place of deep historical significance and a reminder of just what happened on New York's darkest day." Lazio has called on state Attorney General Andrew Cuomo, his Democratic opponent in the governor's race, to investigate the funding of the project. On Tuesday, he repeated that request and said the pace of the landmark designation process should be slowed to allow time to thoroughly investigate the matter. Nearly 100 people attended the hearing at a college campus on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. Fifty-six people testified at the hearing, which turned contentious at times, with some speakers drowned out by shouts from the audience and with one man escorted out by campus security. "To deprive this building of landmark status is to allow for a citadel of Islamic supremacy to be erected in its place," said Andrea Quinn, a freelance audio technician from Queens who said she had worked with people at the World Trade Center. But Rafiq Kathwari, who described himself as a moderate Muslim, said the landmark discussion had been hijacked. "This has been made by a very vocal minority into an issue of bigotry," said Kathwari, as he held up his U.S. passport and was nearly drowned out by shouts from the crowd. "I'm standing in a hall in which I feel ashamed to be an American." The mosque and the related community center are a project of several groups, including the American Society for Muslim Advancement and the Cordoba Initiative, which promotes cross-cultural understanding between Islam and the West. Cordoba's director, Imam Faisel Rauf, has refused to disclose the sources of funding for the mosque.But Sharif El-Gamal, the CEO of the company that owns the property, said that the project's backers were committed to transparency and were working to set up a nonprofit organization. "We are going to go through a capital campaign," which will consist of equity debt, bonds, grants and fundraising from the grass roots, he said. They were committed to working with the attorney general's Charities Bureau, which supervises charitable organizations and works to protect donors, he said. El-Gamal testified at the hearing, saying they were opposed to designating the building a landmark because it does not meet the requirements of historical significance. "This is not the Woolworth building, this is not the Chrysler building," he said later in an interview. The five-story building on Park Place, a few blocks north of Wall Street, was completed between 1857 and 1858 and is an Italian Renaissance-inspired palazzo. It formerly housed a department store, which closed after the building was damaged on Sept. 11. Muslim prayer service is held at the building at least one day a week. Landmark status could require the owners to obtain the approval of the city's Landmarks Preservation Commission before making significant changes. It's unlikely that, if granted such status, the building could be demolished. The city's 11-member Landmarks Preservation Commission is expected to vote later this summer on whether the building meets the standards of architectural, cultural and historic characteristics to qualify it for landmark status.http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/13/dozens-speak-planned-mosque-near-ground-zero-nyc-hearing-landmark-status/
Mosque unbecoming Not at Ground Zero By M. ZUHDI JASSER Last Updated: 4:35 AM, May 24, 2010 Posted: 2:06 AM, May 24, 2010 In the 1960s, my parents left their despotic motherland of Syria for the promise of genuine liberty and religious freedom in America. In the decades since, we have led the construction of a number of mosques in the towns where we lived. Some went up without challenge from the local community, but others met with palpable local discontent. In those cases, the law and the natural American affinity for religious freedom eventually paved the way to the ribbon cutting. These were all humble mosques, funded locally by our congregations. It's plain the planned "Ground Zero mosque" is something very different. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, his wife, Daisy Khan, and an investor intend to build "Cordoba House," an ostentatious $100 million, 13-story Muslim community center including a gym, a swimming pool, a performance-arts facility and a mosque. Way too close: The proposed Cordoba House, a $100 million, 13-story Islamic cultural center and mosque, would replace the inset building two blocks away from Ground Zero. My first concern is whether the financing truly represents the local American Muslim community or comes with strings from foreign Islamists. But that is far from my last concern. I am an American Muslim dedicated to defeating the ideology that fuels global Islamist terror -- political Islam. And I don't see such a "center" actually fighting terrorism or being a very "positive" addition near Ground Zero, no matter how well intentioned. To put it bluntly, Ground Zero is the one place in America where Muslims should think less about teaching Islam and "our good side" and more about being American and fulfilling our responsibilities to confront the ideology of our enemies. Khan and Rauf avoid discourse on reform and political Islam. Instead, they simply give us the familiar, too vague condemnation of "extremism and violence." They seem to conveniently view 9/11, al Qaeda and every manifestation of militant Islamism as simply a public-relations problem for "Muslims in the West." Imam Rauf has even gone so far as to bizarrely say that the 9/11 terrorists were "not Muslims." As controversy over the project has become heated, Rauf's Web site has scrubbed the term "mosque" in exchange for "center" -- again missing the boat of why so many Americans are offended. (Meanwhile, the plans of another local Islamic group to rebuild near Ground Zero only added to the quandary.) This is not about the building of a mosque or a religious facility. It is not about religious freedom. This is about a deep, soulful understanding of what happened to our country on 9/11. When Americans are attacked, they come together as one, under one flag, under one law against a common enemy that we are not afraid to identify. Religious freedom is central to our nation - and that is why the location of this project is so misguided. Ground Zero is purely about being American. It can never be about being Muslim. The World Trade Center site represents Ground Zero in America's war against radical Islamists who seek to destroy the American way of life. It is not ground zero of a cultural exchange. We American Muslims cannot merely passively avoid Islamists like the Muslim Brotherhood and its offshoots. We need to ask ourselves: Are we Americans who happen to be Muslim or Muslims blindly demanding to be American? American Muslims will be better served if this project is built further away from Ground Zero and focuses on leading a reform effort. If we help build anything at the WTC site itself, it should be timeless memorials to all those who lost their lives on 9/11 -- memorials blind to faith, race, creed or national origin. On Sept. 12, 2001, I was first an American. When those planes hit the World Trade Center, they hit at the core of my being as an American. The attack on my faith by the terrorists was secondary to their attack on my homeland. We need to focus our efforts more transparently on teaching Muslim youth that the American concepts of liberty and freedom are preferable to sharia and the Islamic state. American Muslims represent the best opportunity to fight Islamist radicalization not because we understand Islam but because we have experienced and understood what American liberty provides to the Muslim experience. Americans must always remember the horrors of 9/11 and must be vigilant in not allowing political Islam to wear down the principles that built our country. This center is trying to change the narrative of 9/11 -- to diminish what happened at Ground Zero. That can only weaken us against the very real threat of Islamist radicalization. M. Zuhdi Jasser is president of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy and a former US Navy lieutenant commander. [email protected] http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/mosque_unbecoming_QmXgG4QyGgz4ATF9v7cBDM[QUOTE] Jillian |
| Posted by: Jillian 11-Aug-2010, 09:38 PM | ||
So now that the mosque has a green light...we now have this to contend with:
I feel sick...really. There are no words to express my disgust. Jillian |
| Posted by: Dogshirt 11-Aug-2010, 09:54 PM |
| I am NOT a union carpenter, and as a whole, I have no use for unions. But I was heartened the other day when a union carpenter started an INSIDE call( going behind the union bosses and straight to the rank and file) that NO carpenter will put foot on the job! Sort of like the Ft. Hood shooter STILL getting a paycheck, but NO ONE will cash it! If NO construction workers will do the job, then it is a DEAD issue! GO TRADESMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| Posted by: Patch 12-Aug-2010, 02:51 AM |
| If they are going to send that terrorist on a mission to foster understanding they should send ME too take the opposing position! I too have heard that the trades would not build the facility and we should thank them profusely for that. They obviously have more common sense and patriotism than NY politicians. Slàinte, Patch |
| Posted by: Jillian 12-Aug-2010, 07:48 PM | ||
Now THAT warms my heart.... Jillian  |
| Posted by: Jillian 13-Aug-2010, 05:29 AM |
| ...so I stumbled upon this video from a Glenn Beck interview w/the Red Eye's Greg Gutfield. Gutfield proposes testing Imam's "Ground Zero tolerance" with putting a gay bar next to the mosque.... http://www.newser.com/story/97826/glenn-beck-greg-gutfeld-talk-gay-bar-names.html Jillian |
| Posted by: Patch 13-Aug-2010, 09:44 AM |
| What an excellent idea. Slàinte, Patch |