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Posted by: RavenWing 22-Sep-2003, 01:34 PM
The dreams thread got me thinking about this. How do you view death? Do you believe in an afterlife, or reincarnation?



Within 9 months my father, his twin brother (my uncle), an aunt, and a good friend from high school all passed away. This made me face my own fears on death, and helped me to form my own beliefs on what happens after death. (Most of which I am still not sure about, but I am always coming to new conclusions)

The biggest thing I had to realize was that death is only bad for those who are still alive, and death is as much a part of life as birth. I have learned to not fear it.

I do believe in reincarnation. I am not completly sure about what happens after reincarnation. I tend to see the gods as a pool of light, and each life is a part of the pool of light that comes back when we die.

Well, these are some I my ramblings. Please contribute if you desire.

Posted by: Shadows 22-Sep-2003, 01:53 PM
You learn quickly grasshopper!!

Death is not only an end but a beginning! Reincarnation or life after death, I do not see a difference for both are a continuence.

Our lives end in the present to make way for those who must live the future. Our energy will always be present in the scheme of things, how it manifests itself remains to be seem.

I have always held that grieving at death is a form of selfisness, Dont get mad, it is for ourselves we grieve and not the one gone. I have studied many religions and was brought up in the Judo-christian train of thought, which has changed greatly in the centuries. Death is a celibration time, remember the life, rejoice that the burdens of this life have been lifted, and pray that the spirit will find peace where ever it travels.

I also believe that what you do in this life will effect what your spirit must endure in the next level of existence, be it reincarnation, Valhala, heaven or hell.

I know I would like to come back as a well treated house dog or cat!!!

Posted by: RavenWing 22-Sep-2003, 02:20 PM
It would be great to come back as my cat. He is the most pampered creature I have ever seen biggrin.gif

Posted by: barddas 22-Sep-2003, 02:32 PM
Good topic Mary. esp. since samhain is right around the coroner. wink.gif

I have many thoughts on this subject. Where does the"soul" life force, energy go? Not sure. Maybe Valhala, avalon, the great hunting ground.. I could go on. There is a common ground for the afterlife in many faiths.

I personally feel, that there is somewhere we all go. But for how long we stay is another thing. It could be a lay over, before we are off to live and learn are next life. Or do we have so many challenges, we need to endure before we get "there".

I will agree shadows that grieving is selfish. But in a way it is a closure. When my grandfather died, some 8 years ago. He died and that was it. No funeral, no layout, nothing. It was like he never exisisted in a way. I know that when you die that is kindda how it is. If there is knowone to remember you, you almost didn't exisit then. But with my Grandfather, there is no grave, nothing. It just bothers me. There is nothing for the great gandchildern to see, to even prove he was here. He sits in a box, on a shelf at my aunts house. And that's it.
I know this is an unsusal example... but that is my only relative that has died. Aside from my G. grandmother...and I was very young, and my former wife's mom. That was not a good time for anyone... GEeezzzz

A few friends, over the past few years....

Posted by: MDF3530 22-Sep-2003, 03:50 PM
I'm not trying to be funny, but I think that the afterlife is like the Albert Brooks movie Defending Your Life. For those of you who've never seen the movie, I'll describe it as best I can:

Albert Brooks plays Daniel Miller, an advertising executive, who's killed in a car crash. Before he can pass on into the afterlife, he has to go through an examination to see whether or not he's conquered his fears and insecurities. Based on that, he either gets sent back to Earth or passes on.

A couple of months ago, I almost found out what the afterlife would be like. I was on a ramp going from one highway to another here in the Chicago area and I was between two trucks. The truck behind me was a lot closer than he should've been. If I'd had to stop for any reason, I would've been killed.

Personally, I made my peace with death several years ago. You just never know when your number's up. Look at two men who died on the same day last week: actor John Ritter and country singer Johnny Cash. Polar opposites of each other. John Ritter shocked me because it was so sudden. Johnny Cash shocked me too, but that was because with the way he lived for years, I thought he'd die sooner than he did.

Posted by: RavenWing 23-Sep-2003, 07:11 AM
I find nothing wrong with finding humor in it. smile.gif



Posted by: Elspeth 23-Sep-2003, 05:17 PM
I believe completely in the words of John 3:16 - God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (forgive any paraphrasing) But I do wonder what we do in heaven.
The writer John Eldredge contents a new heaven and earth is formed. So we don't lose the familiar, it just becomes perfect - no sickness, no death, no oils spills, etc. but there are still things to be tended to. I can't imagine having nothing to do for eternity.

Posted by: Elspeth 24-Sep-2003, 07:53 AM
Oops..... Didn't realize I was in the Pagan Forum. Still new to the workings of the site. Hope you didn't mind input from another train of thought.
I like keep an open mind while keeping my base beliefs unshaken. For God as I know Him, is so vast we cannot begin to comprehend all His majesty. For example, I belive God has written much in His creation of heaven and earth and therein lies many of the secrets to life and living. God speaks to all in their own language.
I'll shut up now.......... sorry if I intruded.

Posted by: barddas 24-Sep-2003, 08:36 AM
QUOTE (Elspeth @ Sep 24 2003, 10:53 AM)
Oops..... Didn't realize I was in the Pagan Forum. Still new to the workings of the site. Hope you didn't mind input from another train of thought.

No problem at all. smile.gif Everyone is welcome to post here. As long as everyone is repectful of EVERYONES beliefs. That is what makes us all a little different. wink.gif


Cheers

Posted by: Elspeth 24-Sep-2003, 09:30 AM
Being one who has adopted words as her medium, I must first modify this before I agree. smile.gif
I cannot promise to respect all of your beliefs, just as you may not respect all of mine. BUT, I do promise to respect you as a person and your right to embrace, without attack, the beliefs of your choice, be they ones I agree with or not.
Of course, I do love to debate. cool.gif

Posted by: Gaelic Bread 28-Sep-2003, 11:12 PM
All I know is... I want to come back as a Brass Pole. Of course, with my luck, I'll wind up in a Firehouse.
biggrin.gif
Hey. You die. You rot. You're found 5,000 years later, and finally get your 15 minutes of fame.
biggrin.gif
Okay. Seriously. I'll let you know when I'm in heaven with my friends and family... atleast if St. Peter doesn't read this post. If that doesn't work... I'll have John Edward post on here for me!!!!!!!!!
laugh.gif

Posted by: Shadows 29-Sep-2003, 12:16 PM
QUOTE (Gaelic Bread @ Sep 29 2003, 01:12 AM)
All I know is... I want to come back as a Brass Pole. Of course, with my luck, I'll wind up in a Firehouse.
biggrin.gif
Hey. You die. You rot. You're found 5,000 years later, and finally get your 15 minutes of fame.
biggrin.gif
Okay. Seriously. I'll let you know when I'm in heaven with my friends and family... atleast if St. Peter doesn't read this post. If that doesn't work... I'll have John Edward post on here for me!!!!!!!!!
laugh.gif

Brass Pole...interesting concept! I had always thought a bicycle seat on a womens bike would be good....BUT!

Visions of Rosey O'Donel and Janet Reno bring me back to reality! wink.gif biggrin.gif unsure.gif


Posted by: Elspeth 29-Sep-2003, 12:32 PM
OK, this has gotten way out of proportion.

So, to get things back on track I'm going back to a quesion I asked a question before things got nutty.

If you believe in an afterlife, what do you think we do there?

Posted by: Roisin-Teagan 30-Sep-2003, 11:30 AM
When I was a young girl death was always so frightening and looming. As I have grown through the years and lost my brother in 1997, death has taken on a whole new meaning. To me death is a doorway to the other side---a sort of passageway. It was said earlier in the thread that crying over the death of a loved one is selfish. Partly it is selfish, but it is also a sort of memorial of love to their memory. I've have cried many tears over the death of my brother, maybe because of the way he left us so suddenly it was like a kick in the stomach. Last night was really hard for me, because I thought I heard his voice and it brought in a flood of memories and emotions. We humans are strange creatures who form bonds of love and friendship. Those ties that bind are hard to let go of, because they have become intertwined with who we are. So I will cry my bitter-sweet tears---sometimes selfishly and sometimes over the ties that still pull at my heart.

As to where we go when we die? It is up to us. I personally believe one being created this expansive universe---it is a wondrous miracle! God or whatever you choose to call Him/Her (I believe God is neither female or male---God's both! Because we were created in His image).
Man has for centuries tried to connect with their creator, by reaching up or out with their own feeble comprehensions. I don't believe in religion. Religion is our human-ness of rituals and actions of trying to make sense of who/what God or god(s) are/is. I believe in relationship. I have a relationship with God not because I reached up to Him, but because He reached down to me.

I'm just sharing my thoughts on death. rolleyes.gif
Thanks Mary for opening up the topic. smile.gif

Posted by: Dreamer1 01-Oct-2003, 09:59 AM
Oh my. Well, first of all I have to agree with Roisin-Teagan that grieving isn't selfish. It's an affirmation of the love that we felt(feel) for someone and an acknowledgment that they've truly had an effect on our life.

Secondly, I do believe in Heaven, but I'm not convinced it's reserved only for us humans. It would seem extremely sterile without the presence of animals (especially those that have been dear to us). Also, Elspeth has made a good point about an Eternity with nothing to do. Vacations are wonderful, but eventually I imagine we would need a purpose to continue. Maybe that's the time when we're sent back here???? That's a question I've never been able to come to terms with.

Dreamer1

Posted by: Elspeth 01-Oct-2003, 01:42 PM
I can't imagine Heaven without animals either, or hills, or trees, or rivers, etc. etc.... That's why I like the concept of a new Heaven and Earth where what is here is made perfect.
But, bottom line..... I'm just hoping to get in!

Posted by: maryellen 02-Oct-2003, 05:34 AM
Here's my idea: I don't think Heaven has earthly things at all (hills, trees, etc). I think in infinite wisdom and with an incomprehensible God that it will be something much better that we cannot possibly understand right now. It is much much better than Earth and we leave all of that baggage (like sin) behind. Just a thought. msncoffecup.gif

Mary Ellen

Posted by: Richard Bercot 02-Oct-2003, 01:13 PM
Among my people there are several view on death. Personally I do believe we come back as spirit guides or reincarnated, that you are given a choice. I have had too many experiences meeting other people, I deal with the public alot, when I look into their eyes, I known them from someplace even thought I have never met them in this lifetime.

I also had a near death experience not long ago. My Doctors gave me 2 years to live max., which was now 3 1/2 years ago. Even though recovery is slow, but I'M STILL KICKING and getting stronger. The only thing that I would miss on passing are the many friends that I have aquired over the years, but I feel I will come back and renew old friendships.

I, like Roisin-Teagan, do not belive in one religion. I believe Creator gives each person their own concept of him/her so that they could understand more.

May you walk in balance with Creator.
Richard Bercot

Posted by: Elspeth 02-Oct-2003, 03:16 PM
I believe in Heaven. I want to believe in Heaven. I'm tired. I don't want to come back. I don't want to have to worry anymore.

But that doesn't mean I don't think it could be different for others. Perhaps some are reincarnated. I like the idea of there being Spirit Guides among us. I can use all of the help I can get.

Posted by: Swanny 02-Oct-2003, 09:54 PM
Personally, I do not hold any specific belief regarding what many refer to as the "after-life". To me it falls under a vast category of mystery, and I think it no accident that "mystic" and "mystery" share the same root.

Traditional Lakota people refer to the primary diety as "Wakan Tanka", which literally translates into "Great Mystery" and even the most wise, experienced and devout medicine man describes such unanswerable questions as "Tanka" or "Mystery", meaning that the answer is unkown and unknowable to living human beings.

This evening as I smoked my chanupa I meditated on this topic. The mental voice that I associate with Grandfather Wallace Black Elk answered the question like this. "It does no good to worry about the next life while we are still living in this one".

Swanny



Posted by: Annabelle 02-Oct-2003, 11:09 PM
Thank You Elspeth,
I appreciate your contribution! Christian's have always been put down since the beginning of time! Proud to say I am one...
As they said in the "MUMMY!" Death is only a beginning!
Can't wait to get there and slap Eve for childbirth pains I got when I had my children...
In all things Scottish,
Annabelle

Posted by: RavenWing 03-Oct-2003, 07:41 AM
Would anyone be willing to introduce beliefs of other cultures?

I am looking some up.

Posted by: Elspeth 03-Oct-2003, 10:18 AM
QUOTE (Annabelle @ Oct 3 2003, 01:09 AM)

Can't wait to get there and slap Eve for childbirth pains I got when I had my children...
In all things Scottish,
Annabelle

biggrin.gif
That is exactly what I thought first time in labor. Glad I'm not alone. I mean, I didn't eat the apple, why did I have to pay for it! There's some meaning there completely missed by me. cool.gif

And Swanny you are so right... contemplations such as these are just that. We get no answers now. It is just sometimes easier to face the life we must live now if we have the promise of a better afterlife before us.

Posted by: maryellen 03-Oct-2003, 12:58 PM
I'd like to correct the myth on "the apple" and Eve. There is no apple in that story -- someone just picked it. It actually says "Fruit" in the text which is a very similar word in Hebrew to "Evil".

Raven- yes, I liked it when other different cultures and faiths were sharing their thoughts. But, I don't see any more. I could post other myths I know of - but I don't believe in it, just Christianity.
If anyone doubts the new testament or any of it, read "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel which proves historically what happened.

Posted by: Richard Bercot 03-Oct-2003, 01:42 PM
I am a Non-Christian. But my beliefs do not vary greatly of that of Christianity. My belief is in Coshallequa, which is one of the Algonquin Religions. I do not like discussing my Religion this way. It is more of a personal matter. I can tell you we have one Major Rule, "Do No Harm", and that is to all thing. Anyhow it is difficult for me to express everyone's opinion in the area, just what I personally feel. As not to repeat myself, I have already posted here yesterday.

I am not one of those people who feel whatever happens, happens. I am here to do good so that is what my plans are. Here and the afterlife.

May you walk in balance with Creator,
Richard

Posted by: barddas 03-Oct-2003, 02:13 PM
QUOTE (maryellen @ Oct 3 2003, 03:58 PM)
I'd like to correct the myth on "the apple" and Eve. There is no apple in that story -- someone just picked it. It actually says "Fruit" in the text which is a very similar word in Hebrew to "Evil".

Raven- yes, I liked it when other different cultures and faiths were sharing their thoughts. But, I don't see any more. I could post other myths I know of - but I don't believe in it, just Christianity.
If anyone doubts the new testament or any of it, read "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel which proves historically what happened.

***** This is not to pick a fight*****

But, how can ANYONE write a book that "proves what historically happened" some 2000 yrs ago? At best, it is speculation. And this is with ANY topic. Yes, I am what you would call pagan. Yes, I believe that Christ *did* exisist. But, saying that a 2000 yr. old history is acurate is highly unlikely. Just as the Book- Life and death of a druid prince. It is a highly likely speculation. But, will never be able to be 100% varified. And I agree that one must have faith. And I repect that, and that is what makes all religion special. Is the belief.

But, unforunately after many, many translations, re writings and what not.... human error does take effect. I am *NOT* saying that it did not happen. But to claim to be able to prove historically what happend difinitivley is really almost impossible. Just due to the lack of historical record. Whether it be lost to time, translation or what ever.... It is easier to acurately tell the climate from the time period, then the life of individuals.

And again, I am saying this of ALL beliefs. I have read books of my religious persuation, and they claim to be historicaly acurate. That is impossible...They had no written records.... all that is left is the folk lore passed down from generation to generation.... It is sort of odd to say that you don't believe in "them" ( Myths) Adam and Eve are to be the first humans ever created, but what about Lillith? Adams first wife. There is mention of her in the Koron(sp) a much old text than the New Testament.
I guess what I am trying to get at is, Every religion is and always will be shrouded in mystery. One should believe what they feel, not what someone claims to be historically acurate..... Some myths in all faiths have merit. they survived the ages for a reason. People had faith in them....

ie- a religion


I hope I didn't offend anyone.

unsure.gif Just my 2 cents on religion as a whole. Not one specific. I did not participate in the quarrels earlier. This is just good debate......No malice intended. thumbs_up.gif

Posted by: Elspeth 03-Oct-2003, 03:14 PM
Apple, peaches or pumpkin pie, I still could never figure out why I had to pay for Eve's sins. One of those mysteries.

And Raven Wing, if you or anyone else could explain Hinduism and the Wheel to me I'd appreciate it. (I hope it was Hindu, been a while and children suck all of the short term memory right out of your skull.) Anyway, we tried to study it once and I know we never got close to really understanding the meaning.....

All I know is that it seems inherent in the human condition to long for three things when contemplating death.

1. That life goes on in some form
2. The what we move on to is better than where we are at
3. That death does not permanently sever our ties with our loved ones.


Posted by: barddas 03-Oct-2003, 04:49 PM
QUOTE (Elspeth @ Oct 3 2003, 06:14 PM)
Apple, peaches or pumpkin pie, I still could never figure out why I had to pay for Eve's sins. One of those mysteries.

And Raven Wing, if you or anyone else could explain Hinduism and the Wheel to me I'd appreciate it. (I hope it was Hindu, been a while and children suck all of the short term memory right out of your skull.) Anyway, we tried to study it once and I know we never got close to really understanding the meaning.....

All I know is that it seems inherent in the human condition to long for three things when contemplating death.

1. That life goes on in some form
2. The what we move on to is better than where we are at
3. That death does not permanently sever our ties with our loved ones.

I will see what i can dig up. I had a few books. But they have since disappeared into the nether world. LOL! I know a little, but not enough to go blindly discussing it. smile.gif

Elspeth, I agree with what you said. The three inherant conditions we have about death...

I will pose a question to all of we broad minded thinkers here.

After life, when we die, do you think we continue on in another incarnation, until a certain amount of "Challenges" or "lessons" have been learned? Or, do we instantly go to heavan, the great hunting field, Summerland, Valhalla, Avalon.. Whatever form you chose

Posted by: 3Ravens 03-Oct-2003, 06:57 PM
I don't know about anyone else, but I plan on coming back...I have a LOT more to do here!

Posted by: Dreamer1 03-Oct-2003, 07:06 PM
Barddas, you've asked what we all believe will happen to us after death. I've always believed in Heaven, and spending an Eternity with those we love, "Happily Ever After...". However, recently I've begun to wonder if that might not wear quite thin and become exceedingly boring. I don't have an answer for that one yet.

That said, I can relate a couple of unusual experiences which may help provoke more thought on this subject. The first occurred about 15-16 years ago. I went into work one day, and was approached by a co-worker whom I didn't know very well. She was annoyed with me, and I didn't know why. When she finally decided to talk to me about it, she said that she'd seen me driving past her the day before and that I'd been extremely rude to my passenger. When I told her I'd been alone, she just got angrier and began describing the woman who'd been with me. It seems she'd been talking to me, apparently very intently, and I'd completely ignored her. It had left my co-worker feeling very uneasy and upset that I could behave that way. The description she gave me of my passenger PERFECTLY matched my Great-Grandmother, who passed away when I was a child! Furthermore, I had been completely alone in the car, so it couldn't have been a trick of the light, or anything else.

The second instance/occurrance happened to my Aunt about 6 months after my Uncle suddenly died. She was still grieving for him. She told my Mother that one night she woke up from a sound sleep to see my Uncle standing next to her bed, smiling at her. He told her that she shouldn't worry about him, that he loved her, that he was quite all right, and that she should be happy and not be afraid. My initial reaction to this was that she'd dreamt the whole thing, but she said the experience was very real, that she knew she really was awake. The point seems to be that it doesn't matter. That experience changed her whole outlook, and left her feeling very much relieved. Maybe it is easier for those who love us to reach us through our dreams, I don't know.

I've had a couple of similar things happen that involved pets (don't laugh!). Both of those experiences were shared by other people who were equally as shaken as I was.

Maybe we are given an opportunity to visit those we love, and try to help them in their lives. It would certainly give us a much more constructive and rewarding Eternity to look forward to! I don't think I'd ever want to truly be seperated from my loved ones!

Just some things to think over. Has anyone else had similar experiences?

Dreamer1

Posted by: Elspeth 03-Oct-2003, 08:31 PM
When I was nine my grandmother died. She had been ill and we went back to the family farm to be there. At that time, they didn't let children into the hospital, so I didn't get to see her but the adults would go.
I still remember this clearly though it happened over thirty years ago. I remember watching The Wonderful World of Disney in a livingroom full of siblings and cousins. Everyone was laughing. All of a sudden I stopped. All I could think was why are we laughing, Grandma is dying. I so wanted to shout at everyone to stop laughing, but being a child I kept it to myself. The next morning I awoke to the news she was gone.
There are many ways of explaining this away. I have always been percetptive and observant. I very possibly was just picking up on the concern of the adults. But why then was I overwhelmed with the impending loss at a time when we all were laughing?
A couple of days later I was alone in the house and I really felt I sensed her presence, like if I just turned quicklu enough she would be there. But being a kid I was scared and I got out of there quickly. Now, I've always had a very fertile imagination and I very easily could have worked myself up to a point where I fabricated the feeling, but I've always wondered.

Posted by: maryellen 03-Oct-2003, 08:41 PM
bye bye bye

Posted by: Richard Bercot 03-Oct-2003, 09:04 PM
Personally I do not feel that we have a certain amount of challenges to meet. I do believe in some kind of heaven or what ever one calls the place in after life, but I do not believe in Hell. There is some good in all of us. A lot more in some than in others. But there still is some good. Who choose if a person is good or bad? You may know someone who you think may be totally evil but at the same time someone else may feel the said person is a good person. Again it goes back to each individual perspective. You can place a rock in the middle of a circle of twenty people, and you will get twenty different perspective of the same rock.

I personally feel you are given a choice after death. To stop where you are at, to be reborn again as another human or another entity, or to come back to be a guiding spirit. I have not come to a total conclusion of where I would be next. I do know that I am not ready to just plain stop. I do not fear death. And I will not alow death to cloud my judgment. I have always been a person who wants to help others if they desire it. If you do not want or need my help I just stand clear, but letting you know that I will be there if you need me.

I have said this before. No man can tell us how we are or not to feel. Each of us has our own power.

May you walk in balance with Creator,
Richard

Posted by: Shadows 03-Oct-2003, 11:00 PM
It appears to me that folks are answering questions here with blinders on!

There are those that keep professing their religion, and those that are trying to have a deep discussion on death and the "life" after. EVERYONE has the right to their beliefs. A question was asked either here on on the other related topic, why christians are so maligned in the world... I will give you my opinion on that:

Because they don't know when to stop trying to convert and just discuss...

I was raised a catholic, about as christian as it gets! My mother is now a priest in another "christian" religion, because the catholics would not let her be a priest.

I have studied almost all the major religions of the world, not much difference between any of them as far as the "great rule" ..."Do unto others as you would have them do unto you..."

But I have choosen to follow my heart and mind, not the laws made by man in the name of a god.

As for joy and laughing.....

It has always been my families tradition at the death of a loved one to laugh, remember the good times, read the letters from the past and just rejoice in the life that was and will continue somewhere. Might be the Scott/Irish in us.

It all does not end with this life... how it continues is what this topic is asking about.
Show respect for the opinions of all, everyone was invited, but keep the hollier then thou to a dull roar please. I don't need to be saved.

Posted by: Guest 04-Oct-2003, 12:06 PM
QUOTE (maryellen @ Oct 3 2003, 10:41 PM)
Barddas: Well, I don't see how anyone can criticize something without ever having any contact with the literature. Why do you claim to be "broad minded" when you shun things you have never seen?


I was not criticizing. Not that you know, but I happen to read biblical achreology quiet often. Even there in that publication, you are not going to hear anyone say "THIS IS WHAT HISTORICALLY HAPPENED". Just as there is no real evidence of King aurthur, Robin hood, and so on. It is speculation, with what information we currently have avalible. Which are stories handed down generation, to generation. And changing a bit with each telling. ie- what becomes myth.
I was *NOT* "shunning" the faith, merely questioning something that is virtually impossible without having been there.

Posted by: barddas 04-Oct-2003, 12:08 PM
The above post was from me. I had cleaned out the ol' computer files and I was not logged in when I was posting. Sorry for ANY confusion. smile.gif

Posted by: RavenWing 04-Oct-2003, 12:45 PM
I'll forgive you this time, just don't do it again giljotiini.gif goof.gif heart.gif



Posted by: Annabelle 04-Oct-2003, 11:07 PM
My mother died 7 years ago to melanomia cancer...she died within 4 month's of diagnosis. At the time I had 2 construction projects going up and felt that if I kept busy I'd have time to adjust to my mom's death...

One of the things I had asked her to do as I sat next to her bed was somehow she could to let me know she was all right.

I had just finished one building and the stress level was coming down. That night as I drove home, suddenly my car filled with the smell of Joy perfume of which my mom always wore.
I hit the switch and the windows we down cleaned out the air and I ran them back up.
3-4 minutes later I could smell it again...I have my mom's perfume but don't wear it cause I don't like it. But I keep it to smell once in a while when I think of her. I realized then mom had come to tell me she was alright...

2 years later I'm at a convention and drive out to the beach in Savannah, Ga and I see a rock so I had walked a ways and decide to take a few minutes to kick back and enjoy the view...suddenly I smell Joy perfume again...

So many things come to mind when we experience strange and unexplainable things happen to us...I'll just hope it meant things were good for mom and that one day I'll see her...
In all things Scottish,
Annabelle



Posted by: Annabelle 04-Oct-2003, 11:11 PM
Oh yes, and Shadows,
I don't think any of us got our memo to convert you...just enjoy discussing what's in our heart and minds...
Peace Man!
In all things Scottish,
Annabelle

Posted by: Roisin-Teagan 05-Oct-2003, 02:05 AM
Speaking of death---did anyone here about the Goth band that televised via the Internet an assisted suicide while they were playing on stage. I think I heard they were stopped in the middle of their performance. I can't remember the name of the band. I was pretty shocked. It seemed this was apart of their side show entertainment.

How do any of you feel about assisted suicide?

Posted by: maryellen 05-Oct-2003, 07:18 AM
In high school, where the atmophere is generally liberal, I would have voted for euthenasia. However, I'm all grown up and got over that.

"Thou shalt not kill" 'nuff said

Posted by: Elspeth 05-Oct-2003, 07:42 AM
I see life as a road with fascinating twists and turns. Bends that we cannot see beyond.

And so, for that reason and others, I don't believe in suicide/assisted suicide/euthanasia - because we can never know what was waiting just beyond our sight.

Not that I don't understand the fatigue or disillusion with it all that leads some to make that choice.

But it's like leaving in the fourth quarter with your team down 38- 3. You leave only to find out you missed the greatest comeback of all time.

It could happen.

Posted by: ranger 05-Oct-2003, 11:08 AM
After sitting by the bedside and watching 3 loved ones who were extremely close to me fight for every breath, suffer excruciating pain, and were never coming out of it, not much of a choice for me. If I ever end up like that I've already got the paperwork taken care of, ...end my suffering and those of my loved ones around me having to go through it.
So, does that make me childish or throw me back to high school, or God forbid make me a liberal, Maryellen? Those who know me know that I am as far away from the liberal side as can be. wink.gif

Posted by: tartangal 05-Oct-2003, 12:19 PM
This is such an emotive subject.Being a nurse, I too have seen and heard of such suffering, and to be the onlooker when someone you love hurts and yet you can't help, is in itself a painful and scarring experience.
I suppose my outlook is slightly different than yours Ranger, although I can completely understand where you are coming from. I feel that the answer to this suffering is not to terminate a life early but to provide better palliative and terminal care. To allow a loved one to die without pain but with dignity is what we should provide.
The other fear that I have with euthanasia/assisted suicide is in who decides when a life is no longer worth living, when there is no quality, what about people who suffer from depression at times in their lives and during these periods want to die. I am sure that they can make compelling arguments for their right to die , but would it be their opinion three or six months down the line?
I have fears that if you open the gates to this then eventually we will have people deciding for others like those with profound mental or physical disibilities on whether their quality of life is sufficient to keep them alive. Will cost of care start to creep into the equation? I don't know.
I only know that for me,personally, I want to do the best that I can for the people in my care .I promote a relationship of trust with them and I fear that that could not develop if i was involved in euthanasia .
So in my long-winded and wordy way I guess I'm saying no...I don't agree with it.

Posted by: Annabelle 05-Oct-2003, 02:04 PM
When I think of Suicide I can't help but sing the song to "Mash"...
Too deep for me...hey I love life...don't want to go even when I get to 100 cause I'd miss all of the fun!
In All things Scottish,
Annabelle angel.gif

Posted by: Annabelle 05-Oct-2003, 02:23 PM
Sorry Didn't see we had gone into another page...

I would hate to ask someone else to drop the tablets in the acid for me if I was in such a bad way...think of what you are asking of another human being to do for you...the feelings and guilt that person would be left with...no way!

I have my papers in order and I don't want to linger but I want to stay as long as the Lord wants me here. I want others to miss me and say she was a great gal and can you believe she had "Ding Dong the Witch is Dead" , Also the theme to Darth Vader and If you want my body and you think I'm sexy, come on let me know" on the bagpipes of course, played at her funeral? I want there to be lots and lots of laughter. Oh yea, and little pigs in a blanket and Scotch and Makers Mark Bourbon are to be served.

I also don't want to give some one permission to get rid of me cause I'm in their way either...we had a case here in Ga where a wife wanted to get rid of her husband cause she was tired of taking care of him (he had cancer) she helped him poison himselfso she said. She said she did it out of concern for him and watching him die..which I understand the pain of standing around waiting for someone to die that you love with all of your heart. But come to find out she had been seeing 2 other men and felt tired of taking care of someone who was sick.

let's just leave that in the big guys hands. He has our days counted.
When it's time to go, I will.
In all things Scottish,
Annabelle


Posted by: maryellen 05-Oct-2003, 04:38 PM
I agree with annabelle. Where does one draw the line? If a young person was dying in pain, would they receive the same treatment as an old person? How much pain too much or too little? What if they could have lived longer than expected, or come out of their disease to live another ten years?
These are the questions that I don't think us as humans can answer and dictate.

Posted by: maggiemahone1 05-Oct-2003, 05:14 PM

QUOTE
I also don't want to give some one permission to get rid of me cause I'm in their way either...we had a case here in Ga where a wife wanted to get rid of her husband cause she was tired of taking care of him (he had cancer) she helped him poison himselfso she said.    She said she did it out of concern for him and watching him die..which I understand the pain of standing around waiting for someone to die that you love with all of your heart. But come to find out she had been seeing 2 other men and felt tired of taking care of someone who was sick.


What happened to this woman's marriage vow---in sickness and health, til death do us part? How fast a person forgets. sad.gif

maggiemahone1

Posted by: Annabelle 05-Oct-2003, 05:40 PM
In this disposable world we live in, it's amazing how disposable people can become when it doesn't fit their needs...
In all things Scottish,
Annabelle

Posted by: maryellen 05-Oct-2003, 06:00 PM
In a world with a 65% divorce rate (I have also heard 50%, but you get the drift), anything is possible. Morality, Values, Oaths mean very little anymore. In a survey at a high school, many boys and girls checked off that there are certain instances where rape would be okay. What kind of world produces such warped morality? Be it Christian, Jewish, Wiccan, Islam - in no major religions is this behavior encouraged. It can only be assumed that it is the result (from my American perspective) of a culture of the current state of TV, baby boomer parents, radio and advertising.

Posted by: tartangal 05-Oct-2003, 06:37 PM
I have no doubt that the majority of people who support euthanasia do so from a caring perspective and that their wish is to stop pain and distress. The people who abuse it are in the minority.
However the questions still remain on the various shades of gray and who decides on the appropriateness of assisted suicide.

Posted by: Richard Bercot 05-Oct-2003, 08:11 PM
Being a person that has experienced being told how short my life was going to be and dealing with sever pain. I could have ended my life and made everything, in my opinion, for my wife a lot easier for her and less costly. But I am a person who loves life. I know there are a lot of things that I can not do anymore (for now). I am not a quitter.

A year and a half has come and go since I was told it was suppose to end. A lot of good things has happened to me since, seeing my first Granddaughter and her first birthday which was a month ago and my first grandniece with her first birthday this past Saturday. Let alone getting to know some new friend from this site.

Euthanasia is not for me. I can not speak for anyone else, I am not in their shoes.

May you walk in balance with Creator.

Posted by: Annabelle 05-Oct-2003, 08:16 PM
Richard Bercot I admire your courage and thirst for life....Keep it up and we will all keep you in our prayers.
In all things Scottish,
Annabelle angel.gif angel_not.gif

Posted by: Richard Bercot 05-Oct-2003, 10:10 PM
Annabelle and everyone else,

Thank you for you prayers. wink.gif

May you walk in balance with Creator.

Posted by: RavenWing 06-Oct-2003, 09:47 AM
On euthanasia, I support it only when it is a conscious decision by the person. If there is anything to be "punished" for in their afterlife (which I don't believe there is), I will let them deal wth it.


I am bipolar, and have had to deal with being suicidal and I am still in support of this. The thing is to make sure they are makeing a conscious rational decision, and not one made in haste or in a hysterical state.

Posted by: Shadows 06-Oct-2003, 12:48 PM
I support euthanasia ! We have more compassion for our animals then we do our human loved ones! If a person is terminal and in great pain or the quality of life will not be much more then a vegatable and has made out a living will or expressed their wishes in some other way then let them go, after all it is their life and no one elses. They know what they can endure and can not! I do not support it for an easy way out of a curable disease or the fast track to gaining an inheratance.

Posted by: barddas 06-Oct-2003, 12:57 PM
QUOTE (Shadows @ Oct 6 2003, 03:48 PM)
I support euthanasia ! We have more compassion for our animals then we do our human loved ones! If a person is terminal and in great pain or the quality of life will not be much more then a vegatable and has made out a living will or expressed their wishes in some other way then let them go, after all it is their life and no one elses. They know what they can endure and can not! I do not support it for an easy way out of a curable disease or the fast track to gaining an inheratance.

You took the words right out of me mouth. Well, said!

Cheers

Posted by: RavenWing 06-Oct-2003, 01:24 PM
ditto

Posted by: 3Ravens 06-Oct-2003, 02:21 PM
Having been an oncology nurse for 20 years and having seen the agony some people have had to endure, I have to say I am in favor of euthanasia. However, I agree with everyone else...It needs to be a well reasoned out informed decision.
Prehaps with the kind of psychlogical counciling that live organ donors get? Anouther factor is that pain control methods are so much better now than they used to be, which affects quality of life issues. I have never had a patient ask me to actively help them die. I'm not sure how I would deal with it if it happened.

Posted by: Shadows 06-Oct-2003, 02:44 PM
QUOTE (3Ravens @ Oct 6 2003, 04:21 PM)
Having been an oncology nurse for 20 years and having seen the agony some people have had to endure, I have to say I am in favor of euthanasia. However, I agree with everyone else...It needs to be a well reasoned out informed decision.
Prehaps with the kind of psychlogical counciling that live organ donors get? Anouther factor is that pain control methods are so much better now than they used to be, which affects quality of life issues. I have never had a patient ask me to actively help them die. I'm not sure how I would deal with it if it happened.

Having experienced what you have over 20 years certainly gives you more insite then most. I hope you never have to deal with a patient that asks you for relief from their suffering, that would be a very hard decission for a person to make! But if it is asked you should be ready to comply if the person is of sound mind or has made previous arrangments. As a nurse it would not be your final dicission, but rather up to the Dr. and family if the person had not made a living will. Your part in the final action would be determined by that and that alone. I feel that life is a personal thing and to help end one at request should be a personal thing also.

May the great Spirit guide you in what ever comes your way!

Posted by: maryellen 06-Oct-2003, 03:47 PM
If you are a nurse, doctor etc. it is illegal for you to kill someone if they ask you to. Euthanasia is only legal in Oregon. The other 49 states have turned it down. It goes against the Hippocratic oath ironically, which every doctor swore. In the small country of the Netherlands more than 1,000 people are put to death every year without their consent. The improvement in terminal care is a direct result of attempts made to minimize suffering. Every doctor can tell stories of patients expected to die within days who surprise everyone with their extraordinary recoveries.
Once any group of human beings is considered unworthy of living, what is to stop our society from extending this cruelty to other groups?

Posted by: Shadows 06-Oct-2003, 04:09 PM
QUOTE (maryellen @ Oct 6 2003, 05:47 PM)
If you are a nurse, doctor etc. it is illegal for you to kill someone if they ask you to. Euthanasia is only legal in Oregon. The other 49 states have turned it down. It goes against the Hippocratic oath ironically, which every doctor swore. In the small country of the Netherlands more than 1,000 people are put to death every year without their consent. The improvement in terminal care is a direct result of attempts made to minimize suffering. Every doctor can tell stories of patients expected to die within days who surprise everyone with their extraordinary recoveries.
Once any group of human beings is considered unworthy of living, what is to stop our society from extending this cruelty to other groups?

I appluad your conviction to life, but...!

The miraculous recoveries are one in millions! If a person requests that they do not suffer beyond a certain point I find it humane and reasonable to grant the request! I in no way condone wantin murder due to disease or incapicity... but the right to die a dignified death should not be with held to those that wish it! I have witnessed many relatives die a long and painfull death , they wished for it to end, but due to the common " christian " holdings of the government and those tending to their care, it was not allowed. MY LIFE IS MINE AND YOUR'S IS Yours! DO not interfere in my wishes, allow us to die in peace and dignity!

The right to die is as great as the right to life!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Roisin-Teagan 06-Oct-2003, 05:02 PM
Euthanasia is a very touchy subject, but I agree with Shadows in one respect that the choice should be left up to the person who is of a sound mind. I do not believe in Doctors making the decision for us. As maryellen posted earlier it has gotten out of control in the Netherlands and other countries. I think the system we have in place is pretty good. A living will is a perfect way to let your wishes be carried out.

My sister-law's mother was diagnosed with liver cancer two and half years ago. There is no known effective treatment. She being a Christian surprised most of her family and friends, because she opted to go home and die with dignity. She said when the end came near there would be no feeding tubes or I-Vs. Many people came over to pray for her to be healed, but she would stop them. Her belief was if God wanted to heal her he would have done it already---"I am ready to die, and if God changes his mind and heals me I'm gonna be mad," she would often say. A year later in late spring she passed. This lady showed great courage and strength. It was her choice not to be in a vegetable-state lingering for months in a sterile hospital room, but to die with her loved ones around her in the privacy of her own home. She planned her own memorial service---making audio tape messages to her different loved ones. She encouraged them not to weep but to rejoice. She also donated her body to science so it could help find the cure for cancer and other terminal illness. Her name is Lynn Dehner and she is my hero! smile.gif

Posted by: Shadows 06-Oct-2003, 05:16 PM
Huzzah! ( that is Hurray in modern english )! I commend her for her stand on dignaty and the right to life ( death )! Her stand on life is comendable! If the Creator wants you to live on you will, no matter what modern science and medicine wants to believe. I feel for any loss you had but , it is the way of life ! What comes to existence, leaves that plane of life to continue in the next.

Posted by: valpal 59 06-Oct-2003, 10:23 PM
QUOTE (Shadows @ Oct 6 2003, 02:48 PM)
I support euthanasia ! We have more compassion for our animals then we do our human loved ones! If a person is terminal and in great pain or the quality of life will not be much more then a vegatable and has made out a living will or expressed their wishes in some other way then let them go, after all it is their life and no one elses. They know what they can endure and can not! I do not support it for an easy way out of a curable disease or the fast track to gaining an inheratance.

I totally agree. I watched my sister-n-law, who had MS, die slowly with home hospice. The nurses were wonderful people who really cared,but were limited to what they could do for her. Mostly it was as much morphine as they could give her until the end. A month before we had to put our choc.lab to sleep. She had breast cancer,went thru all of the treatments,then had a stroke. There was no hope for either one of them. I'm glad we had the choice of not letting Tilly suffer.

Posted by: joy 07-Oct-2003, 12:21 AM
I do also agree - but only for the case you have a person dying.
Perhaps some of you might have the experience to accompany a beloved one during his last days and his very last period of time to live until his last breath. I did. And it was a horrible way of dying, just inhuman how one has to suffer if morphine doesn't help any longer! You can't do anything to relieve the undescribable pain, the dreadful suffering...
You should have the possibility to die in dignity and peace.
Yes, we have more compassion or mercy on our pets - we have the choice there.
I swore if I were in the same situation again I would not stand next without helping and I do not mind any human law or punishment then.
I'm responsible for my way of actioning and I'll take my responsibilities then knowing that everything, welldone or not, will return to me.

Posted by: Swanny 07-Oct-2003, 01:21 AM
"Primum non nocere" First, do no harm.

That's the first rule of medicine (whether you are a physician, nurse, paramedic or janitor) and it's my first rule of behavior in my life.

Through technology and knowledge we've been able to render the line between life and death fuzzy indeed. Now we must sometimes ask if we do more harm by prolonging a life of agony, or in allowing that life to come to an end.

As far as I'm concerned the finest nurses on Earth are those who provide hospice care for the terminally ill. Their patients aren't only the dying victim, but family members and friends as well.

I believe the question of assisted suicide must to be addressed on a case-by-case basis. I have no problem with with-holding potentially life-sustaining treatment in cases where recovery is unlikely. In my mind pulling the plug is not the same thing as actively killing a person. It simply leaves the decision of life or death to the Almighty.

But pulling the trigger? I have problems with that.

I've had to euthanize pets, and it's a heart rending thing. I can't imagine having to euthanize my wife or my daughter. I don't think I could bear to do that.

Swanny

Posted by: Roisin-Teagan 07-Oct-2003, 02:55 AM
QUOTE (Swanny @ Oct 7 2003, 02:21 AM)
"Primum non nocere" First, do no harm.

That's the first rule of medicine (whether you are a physician, nurse, paramedic or janitor) and it's my first rule of behavior in my life.

Through technology and knowledge we've been able to render the line between life and death fuzzy indeed. Now we must sometimes ask if we do more harm by prolonging a life of agony, or in allowing that life to come to an end.

As far as I'm concerned the finest nurses on Earth are those who provide hospice care for the terminally ill. Their patients aren't only the dying victim, but family members and friends as well.

I believe the question of assisted suicide must to be addressed on a case-by-case basis. I have no problem with with-holding potentially life-sustaining treatment in cases where recovery is unlikely. In my mind pulling the plug is not the same thing as actively killing a person. It simply leaves the decision of life or death to the Almighty.

But pulling the trigger? I have problems with that.

I've had to euthanize pets, and it's a heart rending thing. I can't imagine having to euthanize my wife or my daughter. I don't think I could bear to do that.

Swanny

Swanny,

I agree with you. In the case of having to make the decision of life or death of a loved one would be heart-wrenching. So this is why I think a living will is a paper written in love to your loved ones---taking the burden and guilt off of them. As for my young children, I would have a really hard time letting go. I pray to God I never have to make that decision, but if I do, I hope He will give me the strength to do what is right.

Posted by: Celeste of the Stars1 05-Nov-2003, 02:06 AM
personally, and I know this is childish,but I'm terrified of death. I have no idea what come next because all I can think about is being a casket in the ground rotting. I've been scared of it my whole life, I used to have horrible dreams as a child about it and wake up screaming. I know that our bodies are just shells that carry our souls around, but I'm kind of attached to mine. I've tried to read about the subject, but I can never seem to keep the before mentioned image out of my head! sad.gif sad.gif sad.gif

Posted by: barddas 06-Nov-2003, 11:13 AM
QUOTE (Celeste of the Stars1 @ Nov 5 2003, 04:06 AM)
personally, and I know this is childish,but I'm terrified of death. I have no idea what come next because all I can think about is being a casket in the ground rotting. I've been scared of it my whole life, I used to have horrible dreams as a child about it and wake up screaming. I know that our bodies are just shells that carry our souls around, but I'm kind of attached to mine. I've tried to read about the subject, but I can never seem to keep the before mentioned image out of my head! sad.gif sad.gif sad.gif

That is normal.
I am and I'm not comfortable about it. It just depends on the day....

Posted by: RavenWing 06-Nov-2003, 11:31 AM
Right now I can honestly say I do not fear death. That does not mean that my view will not change in the future smile.gif

Posted by: Swanny 07-Nov-2003, 01:34 AM
I had an interesting case today that sort of applies in this discussion. Just a bit of background. Because we see few medical cases on the pipeline where I work, off of us medics are required to spend at least 160 hours per year in clinical training either with a busy urban ambulance service, or an emergency department. I choose to serve my sentence....hm.....perform my clinicals at our local hospital ER.

We had an elderly stroke victim transported from the local nursing home after he was discovered essentially unconscious this morning. Without going into great detail, his situation looked extremely grim with signs of septic shock, plus signs of a big-time heart attack, plus signs of another stroke, affectiving the part of the brain that controls vegetative function.

The patient's physician gathered the family around and as gently as he could explained that cases such as this have less than a 5% chance of recovery, and he talked them into signing do-not-resuscitate orders for the patient.

Well, we did our thing (worked our magick if you wish) and two hours later this patient was awake, alert and able to speak in full sentences. No, it wasn't a miracle as I understand the term, but was a rather unusal bit of successful science and art at work. Sometimes, even though we "know" the answer, circumstances change quickly and sometimes for the better.

Now, a quote I heard some time back. I can't remember the original author, but the quotation is firmly planted in my memory. "Death is what makes life important."

One more thought before bed. "The only thing worse than dying, is refusing to truly LIVE the life you are given."

Swanny


Posted by: Raven_Whitefang 07-Nov-2003, 08:35 PM
Death is a new beginning as I see it, a rebirth into a new. I do believe that there is reincarnation if it is warranted. I have never had a fear of death, most likely will never have a fear of it. Pretty much everyone that knows me will tell you that they think I welcome it at times. Not to say that I am suicidal. I've got a deep understanding about Death that is difficult to put into words, more like strong feelings and knowing in the end, I will be safe.

RWF

some of my own art.

Posted by: Annabelle 09-Nov-2003, 08:45 PM
I agree with Swanny "Death is what makes Life important"

Now since I'm in the Grove heading I won't go there about heaven and earth stuff but I too believe that someone I love and that loves me will come and get me and the streets will be paved in gold and jewels and everything will be perfect and I'll have a heavenly body (hopefully a little butt) and I'll have all the time in the world to sing and praise...but I really believe I'm going to be happy there...cause I believe. Death is just the beginning.

Annabelle

Posted by: peckery 03-Jan-2004, 05:34 PM
death is camp.

Posted by: Raven 05-Jan-2004, 12:20 PM
QUOTE (peckery @ Jan 3 2004, 06:34 PM)
death is camp.

What does that mean? unsure.gif

Posted by: RavenWing 06-Jan-2004, 10:32 AM
I was wondering myself. Do you mean it is like a comp, or it is "campy"?

Posted by: peckery 08-Jan-2004, 10:43 AM
death is camp rip_1.gif

Posted by: gaberlunzie 08-Jan-2004, 12:35 PM
To my opinion we are part of the universe - who can define its beginning and end??? unsure.gif
Nature is a cycle. Nothing is lost but does still exist in another form. A leaf which is fallen down and rotted changes into ground...we human beings follow the same rules. Death is the end of our present form of existence and at the same time the beginning of a new one. No reason to be afraid. Death is as natural as birth - a cycle again.
So I do not feel any fear of death.

Posted by: JaneyMae 13-Jan-2004, 09:08 AM
QUOTE (Annabelle @ Nov 9 2003, 08:45 PM)
I agree with Swanny "Death is what makes Life important"

Now since I'm in the Grove heading I won't go there about heaven and earth stuff but I too believe that someone I love and that loves me will come and get me and the streets will be paved in gold and jewels and everything will be perfect and I'll have a heavenly body (hopefully a little butt) and I'll have all the time in the world to sing and praise...but I really believe I'm going to be happy there...cause I believe. Death is just the beginning.

Annabelle

Well said, Annabelle. Death is just the beginning! I know my mom is playing golf on the best golf courses of her choosing! Hopefully my Uncle Ben is being beaten over the head by my Aunt Weege! I believe this is time on earth is hell and our chance to learn yet another lesson. We get to keep learning until we can get it right and then we get our reward! angel.gif

Posted by: JaneyMae 13-Jan-2004, 09:15 AM
QUOTE (Swanny @ Nov 7 2003, 01:34 AM)
"The only thing worse than dying, is refusing to truly LIVE the life you are given."

Swanny

Swanny, May I use this in my classroom for a quote for my students?
j

Posted by: maisky 13-Jan-2004, 06:31 PM
From my point of view, life is eternal, so birth and death are part of an endless cycle. Death is not to be feared. What is important is how we live THIS life. We can't do anything about past or future lives NOW, so we need to make the best possible causes in this one. Too many people refuse to LIVE this life. We need to go fishing more. biggrin.gif

Posted by: Guest 13-Jan-2004, 08:34 PM
Yes, fishing! Now THAT is really living!!

Posted by: JaneyMae 13-Jan-2004, 08:35 PM
oops.gif somehow got logged off............. Yes, fishing! Now THAT is really living!!

Posted by: Raven 14-Jan-2004, 02:12 PM
Death will be a welcome relief from the confines of my body into an afterlife with no more pain, suffering, or diabetes. I embrace death. (it's the dieing part that has me concerned) tongue.gif

Posted by: Highlander 14-Jan-2004, 02:21 PM
You know it really bothers me to continuously read about DEATH and how people say they wish it would come sooner than later. It will be here soon enough for all of us, why not live the life you have to the fullest and enjoy what you have?

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 14-Jan-2004, 02:48 PM
because some people might have been born into circumstances or come into circumstances they are not happy with and they can't find a way out maybe.

There are many reasons for that I think.
Life and Death belong together and I personally think that I will just flicker out, like an extinguished candle, but I will live on ín the thoughts of those who loved me.
I'm sort of curious though how it's going to be...

Posted by: RavenWing 15-Jan-2004, 07:24 AM
QUOTE (RavenWing @ Nov 6 2003, 05:31 PM)
Right now I can honestly say I do not fear death. That does not mean that my view will not change in the future smile.gif

I have been thinking about this statement I made, and I have come to a conclusion. I do not fear death or the afterlife, however I fear pain. So, death - ok. pain - not ok.

Posted by: Raven 15-Jan-2004, 10:57 AM
that's what I'm talking about RW it's the dieing and the pain that goes along with it that bothers me. Being diabetic I could end up on dialasis, have various parts amputated etc.... I would rather go quickly and live life fully up to the very end of this existence.

Peace

Mikel

Posted by: JaneyMae 17-Jan-2004, 11:24 AM
I don't fear death but I fear dying the way my mom did......slowly over 4 years sad.gif I've heard death stories from folks and they say it is wonderful!! I know there has to be more than this!

Posted by: Aon_Daonna 17-Jan-2004, 03:52 PM
I can't say I know anybody who remembers dieing, but I did read some Kübler-Ross books (she's a death-scientist)...

I guess it's the same with me, I do not fear death but I do fear pain, I fear the instance when it will take years for me to die...

Posted by: skye 18-Jan-2004, 06:08 AM
Death belongs to Life as Birth does. Do not fear Death, its an open door to another journey. Life is like being in school, learning to master our emotions, our minds, and being apart from our physical self.
Reside in this world, but be of NOT this world.

Posted by: gaberlunzie 18-Jan-2004, 01:18 PM
QUOTE (Aon_Daonna @ Jan 17 2004, 04:52 PM)
I can't say I know anybody who remembers dieing, but I did read some Kübler-Ross books (she's a death-scientist)...

I guess it's the same with me, I do not fear death but I do fear pain, I fear the instance when it will take years for me to die...

Aon, may I say that it is amazing for me that although there is quite a difference of age between us (to say the truth, a generation) we really seem to have more and more in common.
Yes, I also read a lot of Elisabeth Kübler-Ross myself and began to loose that fear of death I always had since then. And the more I left the path of my "old" religious convictions and educatian and became open to what is important for me today I totally lost it.
My dear wish is to die in dignity...

Posted by: Swanny 19-Jan-2004, 04:17 PM
Oh dear, I'm afraid I've been remiss. I thought I had replied, but apparently hadn't.

QUOTE
Swanny, May I use this in my classroom for a quote for my students?


Please feel free to use it in whatever manner you wish. cheers.gif


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