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Should we do more in memorial to Confederate Soliders?
Yes. [ 53 ]  [65.43%]
No. [ 28 ]  [34.57%]
Total Votes: 81
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Annabelle 
Posted on 20-Nov-2003, 05:08 PM
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yep, I think we should do more for Confederate memorials...Every War makes a mark on our country...and this was another on OUR soil.

Annabelle


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barddas 
Posted on 20-Nov-2003, 07:12 PM
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QUOTE (Elspeth @ Nov 20 2003, 10:50 AM)
I agree! Civil War is definately an oxy-moron! Good point 'old fool'.
They should have settled it with two pairs of gloves.
Or as Lincoln did the one time he was challenged to a duel. He chose cow patties at ten paces.

You said it 'old woman'....


Boy could you imagine reading about that in history class???
What about the re enactors?????? LOL!!!! laugh.gif


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Annabelle 
Posted on 20-Nov-2003, 11:20 PM
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E mentioned a "yes or No" question when comparing the rebel flag being upsetting to those of Black Decendants....

alot of the answers are going to be personal ones. It depends on how close you are to the subject at hand...

Well as an example: should I hate all English for sending my family to the Colonies? Should I explode with hate at the sight of the English flag?
Well, let's look at this objectively cause it's the only logical way to do it...if you are going to speak out of EMOTIONS then we are NOT going to get a logical answer...

when people react out of emotions, logic goes out the door...

No I don't hate others for what happened in the past...how can you hold someone else responsible for something that they had no part in and something that happened long before they were ever born...but you also can not say it didn't happen..it's history...we learn from the past to improve the future..


Annabelle
(ouch, brain hurting now)
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Annabelle 
Posted on 20-Nov-2003, 11:24 PM
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Something else that just occured to me...my Family as they migrated south from Spotsvania Va thru North Carolina to South Carolina To Georgia then to Alabama then to Texas, the generation that settled in SouthCarolina and Georgia were farmers. At one point they owned 1500 slaves...does that make me a bad person cause my gggggg-grandfather was a slave owner. In his wills he left each child a rope bed, horse and several slaves...
is this really my fault. Do I agree with it, no!
But I can't change the times back then..nor was I there.
So unfair to hold me as a horrible person cause My family back then had slaves...I hope you see what I mean.

Annabelle
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Elspeth 
Posted on 21-Nov-2003, 09:25 AM
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QUOTE (barddas @ Nov 20 2003, 07:12 PM)


What about the re enactors?????? LOL!!!! laugh.gif

What a crappy way to spend a weekend! laugh.gif

You and andylucy are cracking me up. I needed a good laugh after I discovered my dog just ate a 1904 edition book I was planning to give as a present. Anyone want a two-year old lab/begal mix? (she's either a legal or a bab) Temper tantrums from my children, my husband and now my dog. Wait, leave the dog, anyone want to take me!
Sorry, majorly off the subject. Let's see need a segue back. Nope, not working.... just quitting while I'm behind. Behind! That's it! Takes me back to crappy and back to cow patties. Back on subject. Woo Hoo! biggrin.gif


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Pagan 
Posted on 21-Nov-2003, 11:08 AM
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A few years ago I lived in Germany. Amazingly beautiful country filled with some of the most friendly and warm people I have ever met. We lived in a small village that while we were there celebrated their 950th year of being a village. In the evening when my husband got home I would go run. My daughters were 4 and 2 at the time and running helped to keep me sane. That and the great wines they have over there! wink.gif Usually, I just ran on a path through the woods and didnt pay attention to much except where my feet were at the moment so that I didn't fall down. Grace is not my middle name! But one particular night he got home well after dark and I couldn't take my normal route so I decided to run through the village. It was raining and dark but there were still people out so my run quickly turned into a walk. In the center of the village was this magnificent gothic church. It was amazing and some event was taking place and the lights where on inside and the stained glass windows were aglow with an inner light and I stood in the rain transfixed by their incredible beauty. Each one was a master piece. Some where of the typical Christian design but there was one that really captured me. It was of two men, soldiers, wounded and one was assisting the other through what was clearly a battle field. There was lettering beneath the figures which unfortunately I didn't understand. But even with out the knowledge of the inscription I had an idea what it meant and it gave me the strangest feeling. The next day I was having coffee with a friend down the street and I told her there was something that I wanted to show her and we walked the short distance to the church and stood before the window. Her name is Martina and she is German and I knew she would be able to explain the window to me. She read the inscription and turned to me and smiled and said...."this is to honor and remember all of the German soldiers who died in the Great War." I was at first stunned and indignant. How could they honor anyone who had served in the atrocities that Germany had visited on mankind? I am sure she recognized the look on my face and knew what I was thinking. Because she then explained that many, maybe not all, but a very large percentage of the men who served the armed services had been forced to do so. Some where seduced by Hitler but most were given no choice. Join or die. Join or we ship your family to a re-education camp. The average German citizen on the street knew nothing of the camps and what happened there. They were just people trying to live their lives. Each soldier that dies was someones child, brother, father, friend. They have the right to be remembered, to be honored. Not for the cause, no, but for the sacrifice they made because they were given no other choice. I tell you this story because the Confederate Soldier has been vilified and bastardized down through history. It wasn't about slavery, or really even secession. It was about money and power. Most of the men fighting fought for the right to live a certain way that had nothing to do with slavery. Most of them were not given a choice but to fight. Those who went to the North to fight for the Union became outlaws to their own families those who fought for the Confederacy became outlaws to a nation. They all have a right to be honored. Not for the cause but for the sacrifice made. Pagan


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Elspeth 
Posted on 21-Nov-2003, 02:54 PM
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So true Pagan, thanks for sharing.
I really was curious how they addressed this in Germany.

I am curious too about the statement as to the Conferderate soldiers being vilified. That has never been my experience in my northern education.

Can you explain more please?
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maryellen 
Posted on 21-Nov-2003, 07:46 PM
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Thanks for the info pagan!
I was wondering that is well. It all comes down to what's in your heart.


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Annabelle 
Posted on 21-Nov-2003, 10:30 PM
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Did anyone ever see the movie "Andersonville" about the Southern prision that they put the northern soldiers in during the war?

It's about 20 minutes from home here and very moving place. They have a computer that you can type into family names and see if anyone was a prisoner or a guard there during the war..
Annabelle
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scottish2 
Posted on 22-Nov-2003, 06:58 PM
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Well I am sort of walking the edge here. I voted no because while Celtic sources did have influence during this period I think we should keep it more Celtic related.

Now as for if it was right or wrong I personally feel the South had every right o leave the union if they chose. I mean if you don't like what is happening do you not have a right to get up and leave? Where is the difference just because it is a state? If the people of said state don't agree with what the federal government is doing they have a right to get out of the union and find their own path. Personally I feel Lincoln and the North were wrong and without the power to force the South to remain. If any member of a Southern state didn't agree with the state they had a right to move north. But any state should and I believe does have every right to leave the union at their own descretion.

Ok off the soap box as this I know is getting political but deals with the poll topic so...
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Elspeth 
Posted on 22-Nov-2003, 10:25 PM
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Scottish 2

I have to confess to a sneaking sympathy with what you said. It just may be hindsight talking, but whenever I hear Lincoln's words on the preservation of the Union being spoken, I can't help but question - why? Thousands upon thousands dead and why? Did it have to happen that way? It does seem the Union was a sort of a contract between the states and if some of the parties wanted to void the contract..... We certainly wouldn't be the nation we are today if that had happened. Then again, who's to say we wouldn't have reunited. Globaly slavery was aready on its way out. It had alread been abolished in the Brittish Empire. It couldn't have lasted into the 20th century. Would we possibly have reunited when we became more of one mind again? Interesting questions.
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scottish2 
Posted on 22-Nov-2003, 10:34 PM
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QUOTE (Elspeth @ Nov 22 2003, 10:25 PM)
Scottish 2

I have to confess to a sneaking sympathy with what you said. It just may be hindsight talking, but whenever I hear Lincoln's words on the preservation of the Union being spoken, I can't help but question - why? Thousands upon thousands dead and why? Did it have to happen that way? It does seem the Union was a sort of a contract between the states and if some of the parties wanted to void the contract..... We certainly wouldn't be the nation we are today if that had happened. Then again, who's to say we wouldn't have reunited. Globaly slavery was aready on its way out. It had alread been abolished in the Brittish Empire. It couldn't have lasted into the 20th century. Would we possibly have reunited when we became more of one mind again? Interesting questions.

Well unsure on that or not as even 100 years later Blacks were still fighting for even basic rights. In fact am watching the history channel now on they story of Kennedy and they covered the civili rights movement about 15-20 minutes ago. So even with the war it still took 100 years for Blacks to have equal treatment (mind you I still feel as I am sure a lot of blacks that there is still unfair treatment going on compared to whites)

I also wanted to comment on a comment you made

QUOTE
We certainly wouldn't be the nation we are today if that had happened.


Bare in mind not saying anything bad here but just making an observation of this statement but whose to say we are better or worse then if the CW had not happened or had a different outcome? unsure.gif
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Elspeth 
Posted on 23-Nov-2003, 07:09 AM
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QUOTE (scottish2 @ Nov 22 2003, 10:34 PM)
QUOTE (Elspeth @ Nov 22 2003, 10:25 PM)
Scottish 2

I have to confess to a sneaking sympathy with what you said. It just may be hindsight talking, but whenever I hear Lincoln's words on the preservation of the Union being spoken, I can't help but question - why? Thousands upon thousands dead and why? Did it have to happen that way? It does seem the Union was a sort of a contract between the states and if some of the parties wanted to void the contract..... We certainly wouldn't be the nation we are today if that had happened. Then again, who's to say we wouldn't have reunited. Globaly slavery was aready on its way out. It had alread been abolished in the Brittish Empire. It couldn't have lasted into the 20th century. Would we possibly have reunited when we became more of one mind again? Interesting questions.

Well unsure on that or not as even 100 years later Blacks were still fighting for even basic rights. In fact am watching the history channel now on they story of Kennedy and they covered the civili rights movement about 15-20 minutes ago. So even with the war it still took 100 years for Blacks to have equal treatment (mind you I still feel as I am sure a lot of blacks that there is still unfair treatment going on compared to whites)

I also wanted to comment on a comment you made



Bare in mind not saying anything bad here but just making an observation of this statement but whose to say we are better or worse then if the CW had not happened or had a different outcome? unsure.gif

It's all speculation, but considering those with whom the CSA would have been in trade with, I have to believe the socio-economic pressure would have been great enough to have ceased the practice of slavery by the 20th century.

Equal rights are of course another matter entirely. But, if reconstruction hadn't happened and the bitterness instilled into generations, would the evolution towards equality been more smooth?

So many what if's.

And as to my statement of we wouldn't be the nation we are today. That was an observation, not a nationalistic comment. Better or worse, we'll never know. And the choice of adjective is, as always, up to opinion of the individual.
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Pagan 
Posted on 23-Nov-2003, 09:58 AM
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Elspeth, in reply to your question about the Confederate Soldiers being vilified. Maybe they dont talk about this much in the history books but, after the war the South was a military state for a while and returning confederate soldiers, especially the officers were often arrested and hanged by the occupying Union soldiers. Many of the Confederates didnt return home they went to Mexico, Texas and further West because they would have been treated as a criminal if they had gone home. Then there was the economy in the South after the war, which was pretty much non existant. No jobs, no money, no one to work the farms. Times were tough. As they often are for the conquered. This information is not conjecture, opinion or from any history book, but from diaries kept by several family members before, during and after the war. What I have read often contradicts what is in the history books and is very, very interesting. To sit and wonder what could have been if certain events had or had not taken place is I suppose interesting but the reality of the situation is the same. As they say, "hind sight is 20/20." It is easy to point blame and assign responsibility to others when we are so far removed and safe from the event. It is completely different for those who lived it in the moment. Slavery and oppression and genocide are still alive and well right here right now in this world. We, man kind, as a collective have learned nothing from our history. We pick and choose our lessions and rewrite the portions to please us and serve our purpose but we learn nothing. War for any reason is a price we cannot afford to pay. The loss of one life for any so called "cause" is unacceptable. But still we continue on butchering those who do not agree with us. Peace cannot be won by bloodshed. Peace begins when people live not when they die. If you say to me now that others have died so that we may have freedom and peace I will say to you that you are delusional. These people have died so that others can justify killing in their name. The past is something to learn from, not repeat. As long as we dress our sons and daughters up and send them into battle we are continuing the patterns of the past. As long as we teach our children to hate for any reason. As long as we continue to sit in judgement of one another we perpetuate what we should have figured out a long time ago. They say that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results each time. This is insanity. It is time to change the world, people. Change begins with each individual first. If each one of us embraced tolerance the world would change over night. Not even understanding. It doesnt matter if you understand just be tolerant. It is ok if you are differnt from me. It is ok if I am different from you. That is my prayer. If anything good could ever come from a war let it be tolerance. My ancestors lived and died in the South for the South, some fought the American soldiers at Little Big Horn, they fought in the American Revolution, and some died at Sterling Bridge fighting for William and Scotland. Some died in the Great Famine in Ireland and again on Bloody Sunday. Through out history they lived and died for some cause. The generation that I spawn will LIVE for PEACE. That is my prayer and my promise. If you want to create a monument to the Confederate Soldiers build it in your heart by tearing down the walls of intollerance and judgment let your life be their monument. Sorry for the soap box but sometimes things just need to be said and not intelectualized. This Thanksgiving let Peace and Tolerance begin with each of you. Pagan
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Annabelle 
Posted on 23-Nov-2003, 10:29 PM
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There are always a few people in every group of the oppressed who can claim they have not been given their opportunity...but I find it difficult to believe in todays time...everyone has the opportunity in America to better themselves if they want it no matter what color or nationality they may be.. It has come to a nation that now gives only to the minority instead of those trying to better themselves...
there are always those who want to take advantage of any system you may have in place.

Annabelle
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