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> What Does The 1st Amendment Mean?, We're at the top of a slippery slope!
MacEoghainn 
Posted: 15-Feb-2005, 05:21 PM
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This article raises some questions in my mind as to if we even still have any 1st Amendment rights in the USA. What about you? (and if you believe the "informer" in this article was a member of the church in question then you need to stop taking whatever medication you're on, it's affecting your judgement)

FBI examines pastor?s sermons on abortion & homosexuality

Feb 2, 2005 /By Lee Warren/

MOUNT VERNON, Ill. (BP)--Nov. 23, 2004, started out like any other normal morning for Randy Steele, senior pastor at Southwest Christian Church in Mount Vernon, Ill., a town about 80 miles southeast of St. Louis. One of the longtime members of his church was on her deathbed and he planned to spend the day consoling her family. Then the phone rang.

It was the FBI. Steele said they wanted to meet with him personally. After agreeing to a time later that same afternoon, he said his first thoughts turned to his congregation.

?I was wondering what somebody in my church might have done,? Steele said. ?So I was in a lot of prayer asking God to give me the right words to say.?

When two FBI agents arrived at the church, Steele said they traded small talk for a few minutes before the suspense got to him and he asked about the nature of their visit.

Their answer stunned him.

?One guy opened a file,? Steele said. ?And he said, ?This is pertaining to a sermon that you preached on Memorial Day.?

On Memorial Day 2004, Steele was in the middle of preaching a sermon series he called ?Life Issues? dealing with controversial cultural issues from a biblical perspective. One such sermon was about abortion and Steele chose Memorial Day to preach about it.

?I shared the number of people who have died in wars versus the number who had died through ?legal? abortion since 1973,? Steele said. ?I stated that we are in a different type of war that is being fought under the "presupposition of freedom?."

Steele said that he went on to name an abortion clinic in Granite City, Ill., a city just outside St. Louis, and pointed out that they perform as many as 45 abortions per week.

Somebody in the church that day apparently misunderstood Steele?s ?different type of war? comment to mean that he was actually calling his congregation to a physical war against abortion clinics, so he or she placed an anonymous phone call to the FBI. The informant allegedly told the FBI that in addition to Steele calling for a war against abortion clinics, he also said he was willing to go to jail over such a cause.

Steele said that he had spoken about his willingness to go to jail, but that he made those remarks in a different sermon that dealt with homosexuality from the same sermon series.

?I had mentioned a pastor in Canada who had been arrested for speaking about homosexuality in his church,? Steele said. The pastor said he went on to tell his congregation that ?if speaking the truth means that we go to jail, then by golly, that?s where I'm going to be and I?m going to save you a seat next to me.?

?That was the major gist of why [the FBI] felt like they could come here and look through my sermons,? Steele said.

Marshall Stone, FBI supervisory special agent and media coordinator for the Springfield (Ill.) division of the FBI, was unwilling to speak specifically about the FBI?s visit to Southwest Christian Church, but when asked to speak in general terms about whether the FBI normally looks through pastors sermons after receiving anonymous tips about them being a possible danger, he did offer a few comments.

?I don't know that there?s any case where we would say, ?This is typical,?? Stone said. ?Each complaint, each investigation is followed up based upon facts and specific circumstances of that complaint, allegation or investigation.?

Since there aren?t any typical cases, Stone was asked if FBI agents would make a determination on site regarding whether to examine a pastor?s sermons. He responded in the affirmative.

Steele said that after the two FBI agents examined his two sermons in question, they realized he was not a physical threat to abortion clinics and apparently dropped their investigation.

When asked whether a case like this would be dropped on site, Stone said, ?We get complaint calls or allegations all the time -- whether it?s over e-mail, telephone or letters. We do a lot of looking into things on the surface to make a determination of whether there?s something we need to be doing and make determinations all the time that there is nothing there that we need to be concerned about or have jurisdiction over. So, technically there?s nothing to drop if it?s looked into without ever opening a formal investigation.?

Steele said he was initially a little irritated that the FBI would ask to see his sermons, especially since he had to take time away from the grieving family in his congregation to answer questions, but he said he has no plans to stop preaching messages that are culturally relevant.

?As a pastor I believe that as Christians we are called to speak the truth no matter what,? Steele said. ?And we have to continue to speak that truth in love to all people and to share the message of Christ because it?s the only message that's going to change the lives of people.?

Roger Lipe, senior pastor at Woodlawn Baptist Church, a Southern Baptist Convention congregation, in nearby Woodlawn, Ill., agreed with Steele?s position of speaking the truth in love to a culture that isn?t always going to be tolerant of such a message.

?Just look at what?s happening in our society and what?s happening in Canada -- the laws that have been made there -- and the pressure on Americans today to enforce hate crime laws,? Lipe said. ?Obviously it?s going to mean that someday when you [as a pastor] get into your own pulpit, your own church, among your own people to preach against subjects like abortion and homosexuality and other biblical things that we?ve got to preach on, then there?s probably going to be a price to pay.?

In spite of his admitted initial irritation about being questioned by the FBI, Steele said that after his meeting with the two agents, he printed off the two sermons, handed them to the agents and invited them back to his church hoping that as private citizens they might be interested in hearing the Word of God.

//Story provided courtesy of The Pathway, newsjournal of the Missouri
Baptist Convention. Lee Warren is a freelance writer in Omaha, Neb.//



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MDF3530 
  Posted: 15-Feb-2005, 06:18 PM
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Maybe it was someone who just misunderstood what the preacher was saying.


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Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas 
Posted: 15-Feb-2005, 08:55 PM
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One of the things my wife and I have discussed recently is how tame the media has become--almost as though they were being censored. IMHO, there has been a major erosion of 1st Amendment rights in recent years, starting with the liberal political correctness, and now getting worse under George Bush's "Justice" Department.
It is only the courage of those like Randy Steele, who continue to speak out despite government "investigations" into what they said that keeps things from getting even worse. Anyone who wonders how the Italians slid into Fascism just needs to look around, and wonder whether we are not heading the same direction with most not noticing or caring.


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MDF3530 
  Posted: 15-Feb-2005, 10:10 PM
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Fortunately, there is a media outlet that has not been co-opted by the right-wing nuts.

Unfortunately, Air America Radio is not on the air here in Chicago sad.gif .
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Aaediwen 
Posted: 16-Feb-2005, 07:28 PM
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I don't see a first ammendment infringement in the above scenerio. They were just investigating to see if he posed a thread by actually declaring a physical war. That would have become an issue. If someone walked into a bank and was talking about building a bomb, wouldn't you want to know for certain they weren't going to use it to harm someone?

I believe strongly in freedom of speach, and noone should try to tell Mr. Steele what he can or cannot say. I don't see that happening here. I see nowhere in this article something stating he should not be allowed to state what he said. How were those FBI agents to know he didn't mean his sermons the way the caller had (mis)interprited them?

Censorship is evil. And I say Microsoft/AOL grade evil! But I don't see that happening here. That just like, when I go to Ireland, I plan on wearing my cloak on-board. I would feel my rights were violated if they said I couldn't wear it on the plane, but I would have no problems with them running the gamut of checks to make sure I'm not hiding anything. Actually, I hope they do. That way I can rest assured noone else gets through with anything they shouldn't, and everyone else can be confidant that I am not trying to hide anything. Same story here. Don't try to tell someone what they can or cannot say. But it's always a good idea to make certain a threat doesn't exist, before it's too late.


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Shamalama 
Posted: 17-Feb-2005, 09:51 AM
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Had this been a mosque, and had their leader been talking about "different type of war" in America, you would hope someone would check up on it just to make sure they wern't planning a suicide attack on American civilians.

Maybe it's just paranoia, but there are a lot of really nutty people out there that would love to do another "McVey" somwhere.

Censorship is evil. But when it is censorship and when is it following the moral code of the community? Is it OK to be sitting in front of the TV with your young kids, during "family hour", and:
- see a woman's breast (accidental)
- see a woman's breast (on purpose)
- see a man's (not sure what words the filter will catch) Jolly Roger
- hear the f-word
- hear the f-word once every 2.5 minutes
- see someone get shot
- see someone get their head blown completely off by a shotgun
- see a live human birth
- see an execution
- etc., etc., etc.
One person might really enjoy seeing exposed breasts all the time, while abother person next door doesn't think it's appropriate.

- Should the "free" channels of ABC, CBS, and NBC have different restrictions than the "pay" channels?
- Should there be "family hour" on the "free" channels?
- Should there be a rating level given at the start of EVERY show on EVERY channel (like when HBO says, "This feature is rated PG-13 and contains violence and adult situations")?

"Free speech" is not absolute. You can't scream "fire!" in a crowded theater if there's no fire. There have always been limits. Just try to use the n-word to a local elected official of African heritage and see what happens.


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Swanny 
Posted: 17-Feb-2005, 10:55 AM
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It's not illegal to use the word "nigger", it's merely offensive. In fact, it's only offensive when used by a caucasian. Whe used by an African-American it's apparently acceptible. Let's not confuse political correctness with free-speech violations as they really are two different issues.

Legislators and courts have struggled with First Amendment issues since the founding of the United States, and I suspect they probably will continue the struggle until the last American, gun gripped firmly in hand, falls to an agonizing death.

Any law enforcement officer can ASK for anything s/he chooses, as can any private citizen. It's up to the citizen to decide if s/he wants to volunteer the information. The preacher in this case apparently provided the sermons to the agents voluntarily, and apparently that was the end of it. No violation of either free speech or freedom of religion would seem to be present in this case.

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Shamalama 
Posted: 18-Feb-2005, 09:00 AM
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QUOTE (Swanny @ 17-Feb-2005, 11:55 AM)

Let's not confuse political correctness with free-speech violations as they really are two different issues.


"Thanks!" goes to Brother Swanny for a genuine nugget of truth.

Liberal political correctness vs. conservative boot-stomping, with the 1st Amendment in the middle.

But is "offensive" protected by the 1st Amendment? And who gets to decide what's "offensive" - the courts, the state, the fed, the local community, an old lady in Montana?

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MDF3530 
  Posted: 18-Feb-2005, 03:15 PM
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QUOTE (Shamalama @ 18-Feb-2005, 09:00 AM)
But is "offensive" protected by the 1st Amendment? And who gets to decide what's "offensive" - the courts, the state, the fed, the local community, an old lady in Montana?

Yes. That is why it is called "free speech".

"Offensive" is a relative term. What may be offensive to me (like Bush's policies) might not be offensive to you.
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ErikDeckers 
Posted: 03-Mar-2005, 09:05 AM
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QUOTE (Shamalama @ 18-Feb-2005, 10:00 AM)
But is "offensive" protected by the 1st Amendment? And who gets to decide what's "offensive" - the courts, the state, the fed, the local community, an old lady in Montana?

Yes, "offensive" is protected, to a certain degree.

Adult magazines are offensive to many people, but they're allowed. Racist literature and speeches are offensive to many, but they're allowed.

However, the Supreme Court does make the distinction of "fighting words." That is, if I begin insulting a person to his face by calling him all sorts of racial epithets and he beats the crap out of me, he didn't infringe on my First Amendment rights, because I used "fighting words." However, if I make a speech that makes broad general statements about people of a certain race, that's protected.

It's a fine line and there are many assaults on it from both sides. That's why there are lawyers who specialize only in First Amendment issues.


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Shamalama 
Posted: 03-Mar-2005, 09:33 AM
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Let's stretch this one a bit further.

Jada Pinkett Smith (isn't that Will Smith's wife?) was honored as the Harvard Foundation for Intercultural and Race Relations' ?Artist of the Year? at its 20th annual Cultural Rhythms show, which she also hosted. She was giving the story of her life, from her perspective, and her perspective was a [GASP!] heterosexual perspective.

Yep, and to do so is to be heteronormative (means they implied that standard sexual relationships are only between males and females). See, if you visit CelticRadio you learn new words.

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After some students were offended by Jada Pinkett Smith?s comments at Saturday?s Cultural Rhythms show, the Bisexual, Gay, Lesbian, Transgender, and Supporters Alliance (BGLTSA) and the Harvard Foundation for Intercultural and Race Relations have begun working together to increase sensitivity toward issues of sexuality at Harvard.

Students said that some of Pinkett Smith?s remarks concerning appropriate gender roles were specific to heterosexual relationships.

In a press release circulated yesterday by the BGLTSA?and developed in coordination with the Foundation?the BGLTSA called for an apology from the Foundation and encouraged future discussion of the issue.

The BGLTSA release acknowledged that the Foundation was not responsible for Pinkett Smith?s comments. But the Foundation has pledged to ?take responsibility to inform future speakers that they will be speaking to an audience diverse in race, ethnicity, religion, sexuality, gender and class,? according to the release.

"Some of the content was extremely heteronormative, and made BGLTSA members feel uncomfortable," said BGLTSA Co-Chair Jordan B. Woods ?06.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=506104



Are we getting to the point that no person can make a speech if it makes anyone else uncomfortable? Do all public speeches have to be pressed through a filter and sanitized before the actual words can be said? Are we demanding that Free Speech become Bland Speech? Must our students be sensitive toward issues of sexuality whenever they speak to another student? Is it a bad thing to make another person uncomfortable?

Shamalama says: This is the liberal's Political Correctness run amok.
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Aaediwen 
Posted: 03-Mar-2005, 11:51 AM
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I'll agree on that. It's silly to have someone have to worry about not offending people. I don't care what you say, someone will be offended. I say they should just get over it.
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TheCarolinaScotsman 
Posted: 03-Mar-2005, 11:56 AM
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QUOTE (Shamalama @ 03-Mar-2005, 10:33 AM)
Are we demanding that Free Speech become Bland Speech?

No, they seem to be demanding that free speech agree only with them. After all, bland speech wouldn't take a stand and that might offend some activists.


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ErikDeckers 
Posted: 04-Mar-2005, 07:55 AM
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QUOTE (Shamalama @ 03-Mar-2005, 10:33 AM)
Are we getting to the point that no person can make a speech if it makes anyone else uncomfortable? Do all public speeches have to be pressed through a filter and sanitized before the actual words can be said? Are we demanding that Free Speech become Bland Speech? Must our students be sensitive toward issues of sexuality whenever they speak to another student? Is it a bad thing to make another person uncomfortable?

Shamalama says: This is the liberal's Political Correctness run amok.

Hey, don't paint ME with that brush. I may be liberal, but I'm certainly not PC. tongue.gif

I am probably one of the few liberals who truly hates Political Correctness. It has created a sense of victimhood, perpetuated a sense of moral outrage over the stupidest issues, and has created a bunch of panty-waisted nancy boys (and girls) who would rather focus on the NAME of a problem than the problem itself.

What PC has also created is a bunch of people who are afraid to take a stand for fear that they'll offend the aforementioned panty-waisted nancy boys (and girls). Big deal, what are they going to do? Hit us with their man purses? Stamp their little Birkenstocked feet? Not buy a speaker's/writer's book/CD/product? They're so against capitalism and believe in the nobility of poverty anyway, it's not like they would have to begin with.

Or better yet, to couch it in their terms, Political Correctness makes me "uncomfortable" and I have certain "issues" with it. Does this mean they'll stop doing it?


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Shamalama 
Posted: 07-Mar-2005, 09:17 AM
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Uh, Brother Deckers, please don't hold back - say what you really feel. biggrin.gif

"panty-waisted nancy boys with man purses and Birkenstocked feet"?!?! That, sir, shall be remembered.

Brother Carolina: they seem to be demanding that free speech agree only with them

For a group that constantly demands diversity they seem to not to want to be diverse to others.

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