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| Celtic Radio Community > Philosophy & Science > Why Do We Need Something To Believe In? |
| Posted by: peckery 06-Feb-2004, 11:39 AM |
| OK now. I can see why cave men needed to believe in something. I mean the sun rising everyday is some pretty impressive stuff. But as man and science has come along, the need for religion sometimes confuses me. Science explains much of the unknown from 1000 years ago. Still some religion don't recognize that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. (Bible...creation...Darwin...) I a time of great science, why do so many of us still believe in an invisible man in the sky who watches over ALL of us our whole lives and knows if we have been naughty or nice??? Just because we don't have all the answers yet, doesn't mean we won't someday. |
| Posted by: Raven 06-Feb-2004, 12:45 PM |
yeah but where did the men and their science come from and what if all the answers point to a higher being, what if there is an invisible man who watches us from the position of omnipresence, what if dinosaurs only lived 500,00 - 50,000 or 10,000 years ago or even today in a lost valley in Leo's back yard ? What if we don't need to believe in something but do anyway? Read Interview with a Vampire to gain even more insight on this subject. finally what if? |
| Posted by: Herrerano 06-Feb-2004, 01:02 PM | ||
Raven Posted on Feb 6 2004, 01:45 PM
We barbecue em and serve em with cold beer. No, seriously, you are thinking of my mother in law.  Leo  |
| Posted by: Raven 06-Feb-2004, 02:59 PM | ||
So...You admit it  perhaps this should be in the recipe thread titled "Jurassic Barbeque" |
| Posted by: tsargent62 06-Feb-2004, 03:28 PM |
| Monkey boy, I am as about as big of a science geek as you could find. My favourite TV channel is the Science Channel. I love Discover Magazine. I devour all I can read or watch about space, astrophysics, dinosaurs and the like. I'm a big believer in science and technology. However, despite my scientific skepticism, I don't feel a <u>need</u> to believe in God. I just do. I have had a large number of what I would term religeous experiences. No, I'm not claiming to be some prophet. I just know when God is with me. It's more than wanting to believe it. It is a physical thing for me. I <u>feel</u> his presence. I can not prove to you there is a God. Nor can you prove to me there is no God. The scientist in me requires proof of everything. Everything except the existance of God.  |
| Posted by: Raven 06-Feb-2004, 03:37 PM |
| hey Todd That is so cool that you are calling the Peckery "Monkey Boy"  The other stuff too!! I like science and discovery and want to know why I believe what I believe.Peace Mikel |
| Posted by: Herrerano 06-Feb-2004, 04:14 PM | ||
| Raven Posted on Feb 6 2004, 04:37 PM
We could all gang up on Peckery. Taunting.... Monkey boy! Monkey boy! Especially now since I know that one secret. Leo |
| Posted by: maisky 06-Feb-2004, 04:17 PM |
I believe in beer, cause and effect, beer, reincarnation, beer and beer!   |
| Posted by: Aaediwen 06-Feb-2004, 05:20 PM |
| I believe something along the following: The Bible tells what God did, Science tells the mechanisms he used to do it. now, I like science, and technology facinates me. But, Peckery, I don't agree that Science will ever explain everything. There will always be something that cannot be proven. There will always be something inexplicable to wonder at. There will always be those flukes that shouldn't happen but do. I have had many times when something bad should have happened to be, but I avoided it. You're not going to tell me, after all of these so many times, that there is no higher power; that there is no God. You're not going to convince me, that the streams I put on paper don't originate from somewhere higher than myself And although medicine, Uncle Sam, and a hospital played a very signifigant role, you're not going to tell me that I didn't have devine help being able to walk today without the aid of 'the sticks' There is my reason for believing in God/Goddess. I don't need anymore proof. I've got enough. Unless I'm mistaken, Jesus made some comment of. "Blessed is he who has not seen, yet believes." Well... I have not seen God/Goddess in the flesh, manifest in the physical world, and known it. But I have seen and felt the work of said deity. You decide if that counts as having seen or not. But I believe. |
| Posted by: Keltic 06-Feb-2004, 11:52 PM | ||
Reincarnated beer? That is just gross! |
| Posted by: tsargent62 07-Feb-2004, 09:39 AM |
My reincarnated beer usually ends up in the toilet.  |
| Posted by: Kiwi Gael 08-Feb-2004, 03:08 AM |
I know it's an old cliche, but personally speaking I'm searching for the meaning of life, the real purpose for our existence. There has to be a purpose. Otherwise, what is the point of it all? If we were just spat out by accident by the 'big bang' to live and die like animals, then why do humans possess that unique facet of an inquisitive mind that is continously seeking understanding, knowledge, answers, and striving for progress, achievements and higher ground? And why do we possess a conscience and the sense of guilt, if it's just all a one-way ticket to oblivion, with no possible consequences at the end of the road?  It just doesn't add up. It's pointless. Especially when one witnesses all the suffering, torment, and pain that people go through (war, famine, poverty, disease etc. etc.)on this planet. Surely, folk were meant for something a bit better than all that hell. Seems especially cold-blooded and cruel when one considers all the newborn infants and children who are taken away when they haven't even started to taste quality of life. Just the fact that folk such as ourselves are digging into our minds to enquire and search for answers on a discussion such as this only serves to add weight to the argument that there has to something or somebody out there some place who has placed us here for a real purpose. Evolutionists advocate the Big Bang, believing that all that exists is just an accident, a random process. Well, it sure was one HECK of an accident, cos when I look around my surroundings, I see design. Evolutionists proclaim the Big Bang started with a 'primeval atom' (I think Stephen Hawkings has been making this theory popular). Well, where did the atom come from? And the laws of physics, such as light, heat, and gravity, needed for a 'big bang'? Evolution only works when there's something already in existence to evolve from. Didn't Einstein prove that matter did not always exist? There's so much scientific analysis to verify Creation that I still can't fathom how the theory of evolution is still so popular. It's lunacy. On the following link is a list of quotes by evolutionists themselves who admit that their theories are proving groundless; http://www.anointed-one.net/quotes.html If then evolution is indeed false, and there is indeed a Creator, then surely that Creator would have created us for a purpose and created a purpose for us. So, that's me - I'm hunting for the real purpose for existence, and slowly but surely, I'll find it. I'm searching for that higher ground.  |
| Posted by: andylucy 08-Feb-2004, 03:47 AM |
| I do not presume to know what means the Creator used to actually make the universe. I feel that it is possible that we may some day be able to understand large parts of it. Even Albert Einstein, one of the greats in the brains department, once said the God doesn't play dice with the universe. There is a design. And that infers a Designer. Whether we can figure out the design, maybe. Maybe not. But the search is interesting. Even if evolution is true, about which I keep neutral, it doesn't deny the existence of God. Could He have created the universe, establishing all of the natural laws, then left the universe to develop according to the laws He created? Of course He could. Did He? Who knows? By the way, is there a transmigration of soul when beer reincarnates? You know, it progresses from a lager to a stout? Just curious.  Just my tuppence. Andy |
| Posted by: Kiwi Gael 08-Feb-2004, 08:18 PM |
... oi, dude, what is the Vatican's official stance on Creation vs evolution?  |
| Posted by: andylucy 08-Feb-2004, 11:36 PM | ||
The Church holds that evolution is valid as a hypothesis only. There is certainly evidence of micro-evolution, that of subtle changes in organisms in response to their environment over a period of time. However, to state that the "soul" or "spirit" emerge from living matter is, to quote John Paul II, "... incompatible with the truth about man." The Church holds, and has always held as an absolute truth, that souls are immediately created by God. Just my tuppence. Andy |
| Posted by: tsargent62 11-Feb-2004, 12:28 PM |
| As I stated in my previous post, I believe science and religeon can co-exist. I am a Christian with deeply held beliefs. However, I do not think that just because a person is Christian that they need to discount or discredit science. I definitely believe in evolution. The evidence for it is too overwhelming, IMHO, for any reasonable, open-minded person not to accept. Does evolution contradict creation? Not at all. The book of Genesis says God created the universe in 6 days (not 7 as most ppl say. He rested on the 7th). Ok, I'm fine with that. Where most strict creationists make thier mistake is in assuming that a day to God is the same as a day to us. In the first day, God created the heavens and the earth. In the second, he created light. Our days are marked by day and night. If God created the firmament before there was any light, how did he mark the days? Not by a human understanding of time. We see time as being linear. Who is to say God experiences time the same as we do? I believe that, he, being God, can experience time any way he pleases and, quite probably, in ways that our finite minds could not possibly grasp. Strict creationists have calculated that the universe is only 6,000 years old. Then how do they explain dinosaurs and other fossil specimens? Astronomers calculate the age of the universe to be closer to 14 billion years old. The earth itself is about 4.5 billion years old. For the universe to be only 6,000 years old and evolutionary science to be all bunk, it would take a conspiracy on the part of scientist the world over of an impossible magintude. As far as the Big Bang goes, I believe that God set the fuse. A person as organized as God would have known exactly how much matter he would need to create everything. He would know that, over time, the matter released by the Big Bang (mostly hydrogen) would coalesce into stars that would eventually generate other elements through the process of atomic fusion. Once the stars died and exploded, these elements would be released and start the process over again. After time, enough of the elements were created and spread out enough to form the basis for our solar system. Who is to say God did not plan this? KG, you have said that there is scientific evidence of creation. Perhaps you could share with us where we might look up this evidence.   |
| Posted by: Raven 11-Feb-2004, 01:11 PM | ||
I think that Einstein did say that in order for there to be a begining that their must be a beginner (indicating God on at least some level) My study of Evolution on a Macro Level has revealed that there is no real/hard evidence for this theory and it is entirely based on supposition besides the fact that it it entirely in opposition to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. If you are searching for "the meaning of life" and think that the creator might be the answer, I would highly recomend reading both the New and Old Testament cover to cover without outside commentary and see what conclusions you can draw from that. It only takes the average reader 90 hours to do so it is a relatively small time investment when you consider eternity.  You might be suprised by what you find in your reading as opposed to what you may have heard from Christians or in a Church.Also as far as making more sense of these writings after you read them I would Recomend "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" part 1 by Josh McDowell - very interesting stuff in this book and it helped me a lot. I agree with tsargent62 that Christianity and science are not mutually exclusive as long as your science and your theology are both on solid ground. Peace Mikel |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 11-Feb-2004, 01:18 PM |
| in addition to that, Raven, there was made a documentary about science & religion in the late 70's in which scientists openly talk about their relationship to religion.. and some of those scientists draw interesting conclusions about the beginning of life on this world. |
| Posted by: Raven 11-Feb-2004, 01:27 PM | ||
I think where I differ with the so called "strict creationists" (so called by themselves) is that the Bible does not nesasarilly hold us to a 6000 year old universe only life on Earth or possibly man on Earth depending on how you read it. I did study Stellar Astonomy/Asto Physics in college and what I learned there indicated to me that their calculations could be off by as much as 50% but for the sake of argument let's just say that they are off by 75% that still leaves us with a universe that is 3.5 billion years old. They base the age of the universe on the calculated distance to farthest star and then figuring how long it would take the light from this star to reach us in order for it to be visible to us. I base their error factor on the history of distance measurement accuracy claims by astro physists and their subsequent retractions and revisions of previous accuracy claims (unscientific method on my part but none the less reasonable based on the track record) BTW my estimation accuracy could be off by as much as 100% but this really has no bearing on the point It's a long way out there and the universe has to be older than 6000 years. The Bible handles the Time according to God issue by indicating that time really means nothing to God "a day is as 1000 years and 1000 years are as a day to God" Hope this helps  Mikel |
| Posted by: Aaediwen 11-Feb-2004, 05:09 PM |
| tsargent pretty much stated my view. I believe that creation and evolution are both correct. as Mr. Sargent stated, who are we to say that time passes for God the same as it does for us? or even that it passes as a constant rate for the devine? I believe that the eons to us, required for the world to come into being, could well have been the same as the 6 days of the Hebrew text. This would allow scientists to take a micro scale look at the remnants of God's creation process and perhaps even see things that simply didn't get documented. After all, since when does God have to answer to us and tell us everything? |
| Posted by: peckery 11-Feb-2004, 11:26 PM | ||
OK, so then who created God??? |
| Posted by: peckery 11-Feb-2004, 11:29 PM | ||
Same as Vatican stance on priests molesting young boys. Never happened.....riiiiight. |
| Posted by: peckery 11-Feb-2004, 11:37 PM | ||
In other words we don't know anything. The bible was put to paper by long hairs a long long time ago, and who's to say they got it right. If a day is not a day, how can we be sure of anything? |
| Posted by: Raven 12-Feb-2004, 08:38 AM | ||
Actually that is not true Peckery. We do know that many parts of the Bible were put to clay tablet originally comtemporary to the actual events that they depict. We also know that much of the Biblical record can be coraborated by archaological evidence. As to the length of the hair of the people doing the recording we have only the biblical record to go by for this which seems to indicate that they were actually short haired (unless they had taken the vow of a nazarite) and definitely bearded Those puting the Bible on Paper would have been the authors of the New Testament portion which was written again contemporarily enough with the events that people were still alive who had been eye witness the the events that it depicts and could have certainly disputed the historical aspects at the time of the recording. The accuracy that can be checked and verified is what leads me to believe that they got the rest of it right. As far as the time thing, and who created God. I have to go with God is a being who is not created but has always been from eternity to eternity he is called the creator but I only have the biblical account to go by. However if He is capable of creating all that we know who am I to argue with that. As far as a day being a day it all depends on the perspective of the author. If the author is God it would be a different way to measure the time than it would be for someone on earth as we measure a day here by the rotation of the earth. As opposed to a Lunar day which is measured by the rotation of the moon etc. I would tend to think that an all knowing being that was able to create the universe would put explanations of time period in a way that we finite beings would have a hope of understanding. (whew) I think that's it Peace Mikel |
| Posted by: tsargent62 12-Feb-2004, 10:58 AM | ||
One thing to remember about the book of Genesis is that it was written by Moses and inspired by God. Back those many ages ago, man had what we would consider a primitive understanding of the world and an even more primitive understanding of the cosmos. I believe God gave Moses the account of creation in a way that he could understand and relate to. Moses didn't know he was on a planet. He didn't know what the lights in the sky were. He didn't even know that the Earth rotated around the sun. These ideas didn't come about until a couple millenia or more had passed. How would he have reacted to find out that humans has descended from apes? I don't think he could have handled it. I believe that much of the story of creation is symbolic. Symbolism is all through the bible. No one can refute that. Who's to say that the first few chapters of Genesis are any different? |
| Posted by: peckery 12-Feb-2004, 11:36 AM | ||
Begining to sound like LOTR.  |
| Posted by: Raven 12-Feb-2004, 11:43 AM | ||
Actually the biblical account as relayed by Moses said that the commandments were written on stone tablets by the finger of God. Hence the modern saying by insurance salesmen --- "this is not necesarily written in stone" Peckery, I knew I shouldn't have let you stay up late last Friday and watch that movie. Just look at all of the trouble you have caused |
| Posted by: peckery 12-Feb-2004, 01:46 PM |
| Peckerys are natural born trouble makers. |
| Posted by: Aaediwen 12-Feb-2004, 06:52 PM | ||
All I know, is that I know nothing -- Socrates No number of experiments can prove me right, but it takes only one to prove me wrong --Albert Einstein In short, who's to say we *can* be sure of anything?? Only God can be completely sure. No matter how certain you are of something, there is always a chance you could be wrong. There is reason to believe, and evidence to support, that the Bible is indeed accurate ; at least on the history of the time anyway. But what if someone suddenly found something radically new that began to suggest otherwise? Wouldn't be the first time. Sure, there is evidence to suggest The Bible's accuracy, and I tend to believe that it is accurate in a great many places and valuable beyond just being a sacred text, but also valuable as a historical record. That's not to say that there won't be something come along to prove it all a farce. Such probably won't happen, but there's always the chance that whoever penned the texts were just doped up crackpots who decided to put words on paper. |
| Posted by: Raven 13-Feb-2004, 09:46 AM |
| Just goes to show the element of faith that is necessary in science as well as religeon/spirituality Aaedi I am sure of this though all of our hours in the current corporeal existence are limited |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 13-Feb-2004, 10:19 AM |
| to the question of what we can be sure of... I keep it with socrates words as well. I think we should never become too sure of anything because it will hit us so much harder if we build our whole world on a thesis and it's brought down with one lucky stone-throw... |
| Posted by: silverdragon 13-Feb-2004, 03:19 PM |
| I've lurked a while on this, and have decided to jump in.... (deep breath..... brrrr.....) What follows is strictly an account of MY experience. A testimony, if you find that wording comfortable. I NEED something to believe in. I was dying. A spiritual way of life has saved my sorry butt. Yes, my physical survival depends on maintenance of a fit spiritual condition. I have a simple (not easy) set of rules on how to do just that, that I follow on a daily basis. I don't join the creationism v. evolution debate. I don't even join the Christian v. Pagan v. Buddist v. Whatever debate. I belong to a Christian church primarily because that is the prevailing mythos I grew up in, though in fact my private beliefs are closer to Whatever. Did Whatever create the Universe? Did the Universe create Whatever? Is the Bible literally true, metaphorically true, on the same level as other religious mythology systems, pure nonsense, what? To be frank, I don't know and don't really care. When I behaved as if I believed in nothing, I was dying. Now when I behave as if I believe in Something, and the rules I referred to above are how that Something would have me behave, I not only survive, my life is filled with abundance. The Something I believe in may or may not be powerful enough to create the Universe, start volcanos, part the Red Sea, etc. So what? It's powerful enough to save my life, and that's enough for me. It's more than I could do. (For those who are impressed by scientific credentials, I hold degrees in aerospace engineering and in computer science, from prestigious universities. The fancy letters after my name could not save my butt. My Higher Power could, did, and does.) |
| Posted by: maisky 14-Feb-2004, 08:18 AM | ||
After all, Raven believes that JaneyMae and Annabelle aren't out to pluck him.... |
| Posted by: peckery 14-Feb-2004, 08:28 AM |
| Silver Dragon.....This how I feel. I'm not really sure I believe in any specific thing, but I do believe in something. Don't go for organized religion. They have bills to pay. Organized religions are corrupt, a power grab, like any corp. CEO of God Corp. PS What is an aerospace engineer doing in HOLLYWEIRD?? PSS Disney stoc is going up again |
| Posted by: maisky 14-Feb-2004, 08:28 AM | ||
Hey!! You're stealing my SHTICK!! |
| Posted by: maisky 14-Feb-2004, 08:35 AM |
| With all respect for my fellow members, the Creation vs. Evolution issue was settled in the scientific community (except among a small "fringe" element) long ago. From MY perspective as both a scientist and a Buddhist, the Bible makes an interesting read as a mixture of historical and tribal myths. Certainly there was a lot of good advice to the wandering tribes where the stories originated. That said, I deeply respect anybody who maintains faith in their belief system, even if it is a belief that there isn't a system. Keep the faith!! Up the Revolution!! (oops, my 60's background is showing). |
| Posted by: tsargent62 14-Feb-2004, 09:30 AM | ||
Peckery, it sounds like you've had a bad experience with organized religeon. Did you go to a Catholic school and get rapped on the knuckles too many times by the nuns? |
| Posted by: peckery 14-Feb-2004, 11:19 AM | ||||
Nothing like that. I am a Sock Monkey of science, though. People can believe in whatever they want, just don't expect me to buy in. I find people who know more Bible than science make me tired. I for one am happy with the " we are just here because we are" way of looking at things. Why it has to be more than that to so many people I don't get, but I respect their need. And if I am wrong, God is supposed to be a great guy, so I'll be OK anyway. |
| Posted by: silverdragon 15-Feb-2004, 12:59 AM | ||
Ah, if you can't believe in Disney, what CAN you believe in? As for aerospace, it was the second largest industry here in La-La Land for many decades. Rockwell, Hughes, Lockheed, and many smaller firms that fed the others designs and parts. Alas, those days are gone... |
| Posted by: Raven 16-Feb-2004, 11:52 AM | ||
What was the outcome Maisky. (waitint anxiously to find out which fringe I am on )BTW what do you mean that I don't believe those wiley females are out to pluck me?????????? |
| Posted by: maisky 19-Feb-2004, 10:10 AM | ||||
Evolution, of course.  As far as plucking, it has been almost 18 hours since I saw a post in which Annabelle or Elspeth offered to pluck you......  |
| Posted by: Raven 19-Feb-2004, 01:37 PM |
I guess I am on the scientific fringe that does not except "theories" as fact or law. I admire your faith  Of course I am talking about macro evolution I.E. molecules to life, monkeys to man etc... Since people are still putting faith in evolution and evolution is still regarded and taught as a theory I would say the argument must not really be settled except for a fringe element. It seems that all of the great thinkers of today are still pondering the idea of a moment of creation (regarding life Itself and inter species evolution) because of that whole 2nd law of thermo dynamics thing. I do remember your post about "Postulating a universe that that is born, grows old, dies, and is reborn in an eternal cycle satisfying conservation of energy and matter issues" unfortunately there is no evidence to suggest that this is true. It is only another theory that suggests the visible evidence and begs the question of creation or beginning. I can understand that as a Buddist why this would work for you. However when I was in college (admittedly a few years ago - 20 to be exact  ) this particular idea was on the fringe and from what I have read and seen on the Tele lately it looks as if it maintains this same status with the mainstream.By way of not digressing into a micro evolution argument I think it is pretty well settled that evolution on this scale is a fact as the evidence does suggest that certain characteristic traits would tend to make one species or variation there of survive while another dies out. I.E. survival of the fittest, extinction, etc... I guess on this one we will have to agree to disagree ole buddist buddy  and that's okay. Some of the greatest minds of our time have done and are doing the same Peace Mikel |
| Posted by: maisky 21-Feb-2004, 06:19 PM |
Agreeing to disagree works for me, my friend. (If you won't be nice enough to let me fight with you).  I read a good sign today: When Irish eyes are smiling....They are up to something! |
| Posted by: JaneyMae 22-Feb-2004, 12:02 PM |
| I believe in Coffee in the morning, a whiskey in the evening, and food & laughter in between. Oh, I also believe in the almighty creator who, without him, I can do nothing |
| Posted by: gaberlunzie 22-Feb-2004, 12:58 PM | ||
Hear! Hear! This is TRUE!!!! Hihi! I know that...really...we have an Irish pub around the corner which is - what a coincidence - my local, too.The owner and his brother are Irish to the bones and I know them for quite a while now... so I know...  |
| Posted by: Knightly Knight 14-Mar-2004, 10:07 PM |
| Peckery If you believe in Levitation.....Raise me hand. I dont Have to believe in anything, But I do, Ive done the math and an athiest has a lot more faith to believe in what he does than what I do. I have proof of what I believe in, just as an athiest has no proof in what he doesnt believe. |
| Posted by: peckery 19-Mar-2004, 12:32 AM | ||
And that proof would be.....?  |
| Posted by: Knightly Knight 25-Mar-2004, 06:17 PM |
| Hi Peckery, Weve been gone a week on vacation. Im glad you missed me. LOL Ive had some answers to prayers that the scientific world would not believe. Im certainly not the only one. I also understand unless i have written proof there is no basis for you to believe me. You and I must agree to disagree. I also know the monkeys are strong with you. Peckery see you around the forum |
| Posted by: Haldur 16-Apr-2004, 04:01 AM |
| Peckery, man can still look around and see the beauty of God; it is just masked by the feeble concept of "evolution". Evolution has more flaws in its theory than any other. Man just accepts whatever makes him happy, whatever fluffs his feathers, and so on. Man cannot know God or accept God's existence without first hearing about God. Then man must believe that God exists, know in his heart of hearts that science may be right in some sense but that it is merely man's way of seeing the world. Science comes from empirical knowledge: what we see, hear, taste, etc. This is knowledge, yes, but not spiritual. Science is the wool that has been pulled over mankind's eyes to hide him from the Truth. Evolution is a stupid assumption that man derived from apes and that Darwin is god. Darwin was merely a man, and man has faults. God is perfect and cannot lie. Take what you will from this. |
| Posted by: maisky 23-Apr-2004, 05:02 AM |
| Sir Peckary, I get realtime results from my Buddhist prayers. It works whether you call it cause-and-effect or "miracles". |
| Posted by: tsargent62 23-Apr-2004, 06:24 AM | ||
Why is it so hard to believe in evolution? I have very strong Christian beliefs and a very personal relationship with God, but I do believe that science has a place. I find the scientific evidence which you call feeble very compelling. There is a great deal of symbolism in the Bible. Can not the Garden of Eden and the story of Adam and Eve be God's way of explaining to men of a comparatively primitve understanding of science how the world began? And what of dinosaurs? Radio carbon studies are a proven technique for gauging the age of objects. It has been proven that they died out millions of years before man appeared. Can thousands (or maybe millions) of scientists be involved in some kind of conspiracy to fool men into believing only in emperical objects? I think it's a little far fetched. Please forgive me for saying so, but I think that the reason some people don't believe in evolution is that they don't want believe that one of their ancestors could have been an ape. It's no different than wanting to believe that one of their ancestors was a mass murderer. It's a pride thing. |
| Posted by: Raven 23-Apr-2004, 02:49 PM | ||
Todd I used to think like you do about the scientific evidence for evolution. I am a science guy and I don't see that the biblical account in any way contradicts science that is good science. In other words real proof, accurate, nothing contrived. I also know that Christians will frequently find fault with good science because it does not fit their Biblical view. As far as radio carbon dating proving that the dinosaurs died out long before man came on the scene. I don't believe that this is something that you could make a case for based on that particular type of evidence. Even if radio metric dating was as accurate as a Swiss watch (which it has proven not to be) and if the newest dino bones you could date predated the oldest man bones that you could find by millions of years, that evidence would still not be conclusive as there could be any number of reasons for that situation to occur that would have nothing to do with man and dinos not living concurrently. I am not saying that they did or didn't and I don't really believe that the Biblical account holds us to one or the other and I also have not seen conclusive evidence one way or the other. I personally look at evolution - qualified as macro evolution: one species to another species or molecules to life - as a faith based science as the evidence used to support it is very sketchy at best. For example the Geologic chart with it's index fossils. They determine the age of fossil by the layer it is found in and the age of the layer by the fossils that are found in it. Radio Metric dating use to determine the age of volcanic rock. Has dated rock of a know age as being thousands of year older than it actually is. Still no missing link. (i.e. monkeys to man) Every single example of this link has proved to be a hoax without exception and yet evolutionary science ignores the fact of obvious hoaxes and continues to hold them up as conclusive evidence. I find the fact that they will not accept hoaxes for what they are as evidence of their insecurity in their theories. As a person who personally believes in and supports the scientific method and the sciences, I find this particular brand of science to be an embarrassment to the entire scientific community. Forget about religious beliefs or Biblical accounts. The stuff they foist on us is mostly fiction. (steps down off of soap box to walk once again amonst the masses) Peace Mikel |
| Posted by: tsargent62 28-Apr-2004, 08:22 AM |
| What hoaxes are you referring to? There is no "missing link" that I know of, true. But isn't a lot of accepted science just theory? That's why it's called the Theory of Evolution. While there is no concrete evidence of it, there is a lot of compelling evidence to support it. There has been a continuous path upward found from australiopithicus forward. I find it very reasonable to believe in it until someone can show evidence to refute it. |
| Posted by: Raven 03-May-2004, 08:20 AM |
| DAng it. I spent a bunch of time answering your questions yesterday Todd and it disappeared sometime between when I hit post reply and checked today. I will post it again later today. Peace MIkel |
| Posted by: mercyforme 08-May-2004, 05:38 PM |
| There are things that are apart of how we are, like the need to believe in something. I am going to use the name Jehovah cause I am not happy writing God all the time cause God is what he is but Jehovah is his name:) Jehovah when he first made the ever so popular Adam and Eve, he did not make them to be independant from him. They had a choice to obey him or not. Jehovah does grant us free will to worship him or not. When Eve was tricked by satan aka (the snake) he told her that if she ate from the fruit of the tree which Jehovah said not to eat from that she would be like God knwoing good and bad, he also implied that Jehovah was holding something back from them and that they didnt need him. Thus changelling Jehovah's right to rule mankind. The issue is still here today, Is man able to rule themselves or do we need Jehovah God-do we need something to believe in?? Well what do you think? How do you think we are doing so far? Think about this--we cant keep peace, people still die and starve and suffer. Man cant stop these from happening. Another thought to ponder on=Do you ever wonder why Jehovah God, a God that is suppost to be so loving and kind lets these bad things go on? Didnt you ever blame him for the death of loved ones?? Why would he do this?? Because he is letting man see that he cannot rule himself without interference. Think about that on a wide scale....Jehovah could have destroyed Adam and Eve and started all over you know, but then that question would have been raised and not solved. I personally think whatever God wants he should get, everything is his he made us and every little thing. But satan was bad at heart and he put that question out there and we are proving to ourselves and Jehovah and everything he made why we cannot live indepenent from him--also why we need something to believe in. I know I may get comments back on this, all I beg from you guys really is no hateful comments. I was shaky about writing this in the first place and am worried about what will be said back. But when a question like that is asked and I know the answer how could I just sit back and not say anything. You may also have noticed I didnt use scriptures which really should be here but I think since this whole board wasnt made for this you have to ask me to prove it then I shall. Ok be gentle if posting back, so far you guys are great and I want to keep that point of view cause I like it here  |
| Posted by: urian 19-May-2004, 06:58 PM |
| A man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's heaven for? Robert Browning I chose to believe in something not because of some misguided sense of duty to a religion that I was forced to follow. I chose to believe because of the experiences I have had in my. Seeing the love and compassion in my wife's eyes. That unconditional love. I refuse to believe that all emotions are just chemical reactions. We are the end result of chemicals but we are more. Watching my brother(who was supposed to be a vegetable after his accident) recover in two weeks time..even with a quarter of his brain gone he is sharper than most people I know with their entire grey matter. Watching the birth of my son. Watching him grow. Seeing something in his eyes that is indescribable. Sitting still in the middle of a field of hay feeling the sun on my face and the wind in my hair. Watching the play of the birds in the air and the animals on the ground. Knowing that , if, any molecule was off by the slightest,then, we would not exist. The lawas of physics themselves are too perfect to be an accident. I choose to believe because of the many evidences that I have seen, heard, felt, and experienced in my life. I believe in something because I feel that something believes in me. My two cents |
| Posted by: peckery 24-May-2004, 08:43 AM |
| Currently there are five Billion people on earth. If you line a million up in a row and hit them all in the head with a hammer, several things are going to happen. Some will die instantly, some will go into a coma and die, Some will come out of their coma. Of those who come out of their coma some will be effected and some will not. (other than having a dent in their head) The ones who come out OK, is that Gods doing? Does he get credit? And did he say screw all these other loosesrs, your special. In a world of BILLIONS you will find that the human body is pretty predictible as far as what it can absord and still function. The ones who survived were a statistic, not divine intervention. |
| Posted by: Raven 24-May-2004, 11:27 AM |
| Your logic is flawed Peckery as your whole thesis is dependant on the size of a hammer that you hit them with. |
| Posted by: Aragorn 24-May-2004, 12:45 PM |
| We all need to believe is something regardless of what or who. Thank you for all your prospectives, To each his own. I think if we do not believe in something life is not worth living or it has little value. So, be at peace and believe what you will. |
| Posted by: Raven 24-May-2004, 01:10 PM | ||
Does this mean that we are not allowed to post in this forum anymore I'm confused  |
| Posted by: urian 09-Jun-2004, 08:45 PM | ||
I would have to say no. Unless it gets locked. |
| Posted by: Raven 10-Jun-2004, 08:56 AM |
| I was just being fasicious Urien (not to be confused with fascist) Slainte Mikel |
| Posted by: Aaediwen 10-Jun-2004, 04:21 PM | ||||
Sounds to me like he just found his answer I know I see no reason for a lock here Other opinions on why we need something to believe in? |
| Posted by: Raven 11-Jun-2004, 06:11 AM |
| I agree Aadi. I don't think that it is so much a need as a choice |
| Posted by: Aaediwen 11-Jun-2004, 02:56 PM | ||
well, I do believe we *need* something to believe in, although what that is would be the choice |
| Posted by: Raven 12-Jun-2004, 02:21 PM |
| Stop winking at me |
| Posted by: reddrake79 14-Jun-2004, 02:26 PM |
| I only read the first few posts, so if someone has already said the following, oops. However, there are some things that I don't think science will ever be able to explain. Why? because no human was there to observe the events. Most obvious example: where did man come from? Most religions have there own belief about the beginning of man, He was devinly created, he came about as an accident, he is the result of some mutated ape which no other ape wanted in their group. True science is limited by what scientist observe. What scientists observe does not empirically prove any of the theories of the beginning of man, including evolution. This is why all of them are labeled as theories. (if someone wanted to debate this under a new string please start it ) Our beliefs fill in the gaps as to what science cannot prove. Where did man come from? is there a spiritual realm? are dinosaurs good eating? (according to some theories we may be able to eventually prove the last one) Wheather or not you are protestant, catholic, pagen, mormon, gnostic, atheist, you will have some belief that science cannot prove about these questions. |
| Posted by: peckery 16-Jun-2004, 07:50 AM | ||
I DID hit the ugly ones harder |
| Posted by: reddrake79 16-Jun-2004, 09:29 AM |
| This post isa mostly for those that believe the Bible and evolution. Some questions came up about God possibly using more than six days to create the universe. One problem, these people quote one phrase from the new testament "one day is as a thousand years" however the verse goes on to say "and a thousand years is as one day" This just shows that God's timetable is not our own. In Genesis the author specifically states that there was evening and morning during those six days of creation. Now that must have been one heck of a long evening and morning for it to translate into millions of years. Lets be consistant with applying this verse, Lets look at Jonah in the whale. He wasn't there for three days but three thousand years. At anyrate, thousands of years won't help for evolution anyway. Scientists need billions if not trillions of year now. Noah's flood explanes the fossil record. Fossilization is a fast process requiring lots of minerals and water. It is not a slow process. What would you expect to find if a world wide flood happened? "Millions of dead things, buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth. What do we find? Millions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth." -Ken Ham The eruption of Mt. Saint Helens and the relocation of water from Spirit Lake proved that many layers of rock can be laid down and stratified quickly. Did you know that the supposed "fossil record" cannot be found with all thirteen layers in order anywhere on the earth? It is either missing layers, or they are out of order. As for starlight and the age of the earth. Could God have created starlight in transit? yes. did he? i don't know, but He created a mature earth. secondly, there are scientists working on a theory that light has not always been the same speed that it is now, and that it has actually slowed down since the beginning of the universe. can evolution and creation coexist? no. Evolution is based on death and survival of the fittest. Biblical creation requires a loving God who eventually sacraficed his only Son for all sins, which entered the world along with death by adam's sin. If God used evolution in between the days of creation, then we have death and destruction, cancer and disease, in the world before sin. After God was done with the days of creation he said, "It is Good." Are death, disease, and illness good? most of this can be found at www.answersingenesis.org as well as other places Finally: There is NO evidence that PROVES evolution, There is NO evidence that PROVES creation. It is a matter of faith. I use the same evidence that evolutionists use to prove evolution to point to creation by God |
| Posted by: Aaediwen 16-Jun-2004, 08:30 PM | ||
great post very interesting read. and definately good points. But one must wonder, what would the world be like without death, disease, and illness... If noone ever died.... |
| Posted by: reddrake79 17-Jun-2004, 11:07 AM |
| Wyoming would be populated. but seriously, imagine Einstein, Gallileo, Newton, and Edison all working together. Science would be much more advanced than it is now. in my opinion. With all the scientists in history working together we would probably already have a working space station like what we see in the movies or colonies on the moon and other planets. just a hypothoses, no way to prove it |
| Posted by: Aaediwen 17-Jun-2004, 04:44 PM |
| True, but also; that would be a huge additional drain on natural resources. How would that much life possably be sustained? |
| Posted by: reddrake79 17-Jun-2004, 04:59 PM |
| seeing as how this is all hypothetical, anyway. We are dealing with a world that is fallen and imperfect, not God's perfect world that he originally created. I'm sure that a lot of genetic information in both plants and animals has been lost, partly due to the flood, partly due to species dying off and partly due to the curse on the world. Maybe, plants could grow more fruit or animals could live longer on less food. With perfect minds we would be able to use our resources wisely and more effectively. Who knows. I was mearly trying to point out that according to the Bible, death did not enter the world until after Adam and Eve sinned. |
| Posted by: Aaediwen 17-Jun-2004, 05:16 PM |
| |
| Posted by: reddrake79 18-Jun-2004, 08:37 AM |
| Thanks for making me think about it Aaediwen. No one ever asked me those questions before. |
| Posted by: Aaediwen 18-Jun-2004, 05:18 PM |
| The slippery slope and the concept of nessessary evil. When I was re-discovering and studying Christianity I asked myself the same question as a lot of other people have asked. God is omnipotent, meaning he could, at a whim, erase all evil and hardship from the world. If he cares so much for mankind, and hates to see us suffer so, then why doesn't he? Then I go to thinking of how appreciative we tend to be of peace right after a war, and how we take it for granted when we've had it a while. And I decided that such things to have a purpose in being. They help us to recognise and appreciate the good things in life when we see them If we did not have war, then we'd take peace for granted and it wouldn't matter. It wouldn't be important. If only love existed, then we'd think it so normal that we'd forget how much we were loved because we don't know what the opposite end (hate) is. If we did not have disease, and death, how would we appreciate living in good health? I then took it a step further and found that evil, hate, and all those other things would probably recreate themselves if resolved. Say that organizations like Save the Children completely succeeded, and noone ever went hungry. Ok, then we get used to the idea and start seeing that 'hey, these people aren't as well fed as everyone else, they must be starving' They're still better off than they were, but the bar has been raised, and they still seem the same. rinse, repeat. Or poverty... Today, we pretty much live like kings compared with those we read and hear about on this website. If you find homes for all the homeless, then there is no longer that floor. After a while, even though everyone hasa home, the people in the lowest type of housing look to society like the homeless look now. All they way up until they're living in a guilded palace, but we still think them in poor shape because their palace doesn't have as much guilding as everyone elses. If everyone were well off, we'd loose focus on just how well off we are. If we had no war, we'd get so used to peace that even the slightest thing like looking at someone wrong would tick them off royally or even start a fight, which puts us right back where we started... The experience of fights and wars, helps us maintain perspective and forgive the person who pulls out in front of you or gets that parking pot you were heading for, or forgets to turn the light out. Just my view on what might happen And typos help us appreciate proper spelling perhaps? |
| Posted by: reddrake79 19-Jun-2004, 12:04 AM |
| Why does evil happen? Why do bad things happen to good people? We don't know. The only thing we do know (if you believe the bible) is that God created man with a free will. God gave us the power to be stupid. Yes, sinfull man left to his own devices lets evil things happen-such as unfairness, poverty, hunger,war, add on whatever you think is evil. However, God created a perfect world "Man created the car, called it awesome. God created trees, called it good. Man created the refridgerator, called it neat. God created rabbits, called it good. The wheels fell off the car, and the refridgerator broke down. The trees still stand and the rabbits still go." -Bill Cosby The whole world changed when adam and eve ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. God killed an animal to cover Adam and Eve. They tried to use fig leaves. God showed that death was the result of sin and the only thing to take sin away. Sin had now entered the world and by sin so had death. We don't know what God had originally intended for all the biological processes we see now. We can't compare the world we have now to what God originally intended. We didn't have the intended world long enough to be able to make that comparison. |
| Posted by: reddrake79 19-Jun-2004, 10:46 PM |
| I thought of something later, This is one place where faith comes in. Why help the homeless if the homeless help us to appreciate our own homes better? Faith tells us too. My Faith, christianity, tells me that helping the homeless is a good thing. Science does not tell us to do this. I cant remember who said it but, "the drunk in the gutter is exactly where he belongs." He is weak and that weakness is in his genes, hence the genepool would be better off if that gene is eliminated. Evolution has no room, for creatures that make mistakes. Yes, other peoples bad experiences may help us to appreciate our own circumstances more. But, the Bible says that God is not the author of evil. My faith in the Bible helps me to believe that this world is not what God intended, but that he intended a world much better and different than the one we live in. That same faith helps me believe that No evil such as cancer, disease, or any other "neccessary evil" was created by God during the 6 days of creation. God created the tree of life also that man may eat of it and live forever. So, what I know of God's character from the Bible tells me that death, disease (which scientists have found evidence of in fossils), or other evils were not there until after the 7th day when God rested. Again, this is my faith not scientific evidence. This is why man must believe in something. Personally I think that the Bible is the only truth about religion, others disagree with me. This string is not for that discussion however. The absence of any religion is why we see our societies going down the tubes. School shootings, racism, "babies having babies." People who believe there is a greater power and that said power has laid down some rules are less likely to be involved in those things. (not 100% there are always those that do it anyway, again God gave us the power to be stupid.) Everybody interprets the world he sees according to his faith. |
| Posted by: Aaediwen 20-Jun-2004, 08:11 AM |
| I agree that we should help our fellow human being. I don't believe that the kind of weekness you describe is in the genes either, and the drunk in the gutter could probably pull himself out of it and be a productive member of society if he wanted it bad enough. I still have a problem with an idea of an omnipotent God letting something that is wrong/evil/sinful continue just because he did not bring it into the world. "I didn't create it, so I'll let it keep killing my children" sounds pretty lame to me, and doesn't sound like a view God would take. Unless it had a deeper meaning. |
| Posted by: Camchak 20-Jun-2004, 01:08 PM |
| The answer to the question you ask can not be given by any man, see our thoughts are not His thoughts and His thoughts are far above ours! We are never told that if we accept Him our life will be easy or that we will never walk through the deepest valleys! We are told that when we can not take another step He will carry us, we are told that we will never be alone for He is always with us. I will post this as a thought, I never judge anyone or what they believe. I will never try to force what I believe on anyone. I thank you if you have taken the time to read this post! JESUS My King was born King; the Bible says He's the seven-way King. He's the King of the Jews- that is a racial King. He's the King of Israel - that's a national king. He's the King of righteousness, He's the King of the ages, He's the King of heaven, He's the King of glory, He's the King of kings and He is the Lord of lords. Now, that's my King. "Well, I wonder if you know Him do you know Him? Don't try to mislead me - do you know my King? David said, "The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament shows His handiwork." My King is the only one, whom there is no means of measure can define His limitless love. No far-seeing telescope can bring into visibility the coastline of His shoreless supplies. No barriers can hinder Him from pouring out His blessing. He's enduringly strong, He's entirely sincere, He's eternally steadfast, He's immortally graceful, imperially powerful, He's impartially merciful. That's my King. He's God's Son, He's the sinner's Saviour. He's the centrepiece of civilisation, He stands alone in Himself. He's awesome, unique, unparalleled - He's unprecedented. He's the miracle of the age. He's the superlative of everything good that you choose to call Him. He is the only one able to supply all of our needs simultaneously. He supplies strength for the weak. He's available for the tempted and the tried. He sympathises and He saves. He foreguards and He guides. He heals the sick. He cleanses the lepers. He forgives sinners. He discharges debtors. He delivers the captives. He defends the feeble. He blesses the young. He serves the unfortunate. He regards the aged. He rewards the diligent, and He beautifies the meek. Do you know Him? Well, my King is the King of knowledge. He's the wellspring of wisdom, He's the doorway of deliverance. He's the pathway of peace, He's the roadway of righteousness, He's the highway of holiness, He's the gateway of glory. He's the Master of the mighty, He's the Captain of the conquerors, He's the Head of the heroes and He's the Leader of the legislators! He's the Overseer of the overcomers, He's the Governor of the governors. He's the Prince of princes, He's the King of kings, and He's the Lord of lords. That's my King. His office is manifold and His promise is sure. His light is matchless, His goodness is limitless. His mercy is everlasting and His love never changes. His Word is enough, His grace is sufficient. His reign is righteous, His yoke is easy and His burden is light. Well, I wish I could describe Him to you, but He's indescribable! He's incomprehensible, invincible, irresistible. I'm trying to tell you the heaven of heavens cannot contain Him, let alone a man explain Him! You can't get Him out of your mind. You can't get Him off of your hands. You can't outlive Him and you can't live without Him! Well, Pharisees couldn't stand Him but they found out they couldn't stop Him. Pilot couldn't find any fault in Him. The witnesses couldn't get their testimonies to agree and Herod couldn't kill Him. Death couldn't handle Him and the grave couldn't hold Him. That's my King! He always has been and He always will be. I'm talking about, He had no predecessor and He'll have no successor. There was nobody before Him and there will be no one after Him. You can't impeach Him and He's not going to resign. That's my King! Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory. Well, all the power belongs to my King. We around here talk about black-power, and white-power, and green-power, but it's God's power! Thine is the power and the glory! We are trying to get prestige and honour and glory for ourselves but the glory is all His. Yes, Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever and ever and ever and ever (how long is that?) and ever and ever and ever and ever. And when you get through with all of the forevers, then - "Amen!" - As inspired by Pastor Dr. Shadrach Meshach Lockridge. |
| Posted by: reddrake79 20-Jun-2004, 04:00 PM |
| I can't believe a PERFECT creator made such things as disease, famine, and suffering. especially one that is loving and wants the best for his people. If he did, then He is not a loveing and caring God. God has allowed it because men want it. If every man decided to do good we would not have war, famine, etc. But the sad fact of the matter is that some men do want it, or these are the side-effects of what they want. God does not impose his will on us and overide the free will that he gave man. Evil is there because men have put it there. God has allowed it to continue because to simply banish it would take the choice away from men. Then what's the point. God wants us to follow Him and believe in Him but He will not force us too. When sin did enter the world God gave us a way to get away from it. He may not have caused the problem but He gave us a solution to the problem. Religion is the solution to the problem of sin and evil. Relgion is the positive aspects of society, the helping others, the giving of food, the advocates of peace. Most of these activities are conducted by religious people. Belief in God has made the druggy clean, made the drunk sober, and the worthless worth something. God has freed so many people from the chains of sin that bind them. This is a matter of Faith, either you believe it or you don't. However, this is the only thing that makes sense to me. camchack: I have heard that speach before and love it. Thanks  |
| Posted by: peckery 20-Jun-2004, 05:54 PM | ||
Now you are getting into genetic engineering. I thought the church said that was a no-no. |
| Posted by: reddrake79 21-Jun-2004, 08:50 AM |
| No, I was not talking about genetic engineering. I was saying that through speciation, mutations, and natural processes, genetic information has been lost not changed. we were talking about a hypothetical world were adam and eve had never sinned. I was saying that in that world before sin and the curse - man, plants and animals were perfect unlike they are today. p.s. to my last post. Just because God saves us from our own sins, does not mean that we aren't affected by somedody elses or experience the consequences of our own past sins. |
| Posted by: Ceciliastar1 28-Jun-2004, 01:52 PM |
I beleive that there is a Perfect Creator (aka God). He crearted everything perfect in the Garden of Eden. There was no famine, disease, etc. Man was perfect. God gave man a free will. God did not want to force anything, He wanted man to be able to choose. Well, mankind did choose. They chose the wrong choice. This led to the "fall of man", which led to imperfection. That is where war, and famine, and disease came from. Mankind created those things, not God. He creates perfection. It is the choice of mankind that changes it. Make any sense? |
| Posted by: freekenny 17-Aug-2004, 11:16 PM | ||
O'siyo maisky, Whew! You need a raise in pay when it comes to making someone laugh so hard it prevents them from typing   ~~Sty-U  |
| Posted by: freekenny 17-Aug-2004, 11:22 PM |
| O'siyo, Why do we need something to believe in? To make our wrongs seem forgivable, to make our rights seem righteous, to create a false bravado of freedom, give us purpose, keep us focused and to help us create more sins  Let me reiterate, *enter at your own risk*  ~~Sty-U |
| Posted by: freekenny 03-Nov-2004, 12:08 AM |
| O'siyo, ~ Why do we need something to believe in? ~~ So that we can make ourselves believe we are important and in this huge universe, believe our lives are the only ones that matter~ ~~ It gives 'us' courage My two-cents ~Sty-U |
| Posted by: Aragorn 03-Nov-2004, 10:14 AM |
| For the pure fact of believing in something we get up each day and go through our mundane routine. Weather we believe in a higher power or believe in an idea or hold fast to ideals. If we did not believe in something or someone, none of us would do what we do daily. Sounds pretty vague doesn't it? Well, for a lot of us what we believe in is. Without something to believe in we would not be driving cars or motorcycles, typing on computers and flying in planes. Weather we believe in our goals or faith in God, we need to believe in something just to make it through the day. I threw in a few more cents then nermal. Deep, deep is the well that flows cold clear water to rejuvenate ones soul. |
| Posted by: freekenny 03-Nov-2004, 01:15 PM | ||
O'siyo Aragorn, ~Vague? nah, not really...actually I would say well put! ~~Sty-U, have a blessed and peaceful day and eve! |
| Posted by: dragonboy3611 06-Nov-2004, 05:06 PM |
| For a sense of hope and welbeing for some A sense of care for others different people need something to believe in for different reasons, others don't need anything to believe in. It's all in the person who you are! |
| Posted by: maryellen 12-Nov-2004, 07:26 AM |
| In response to the original inquiry, I think it would be erroneous to put faith aside to bask in the full sun of Science. We think we know it all right now. But in 100 years, scientists will look back and say "boy were they stupid." "Science" told many that the Earth was the center of the universe. It talks of evolution as a fact despite the contradictory evidence. It still cannot explain many things. And every time we think we're right, years later someone proves it wrong. |
| Posted by: Meryat 19-Nov-2004, 11:52 PM |
| It seems to me that we as human beings seek to understand our surroundings. In order to do that, we need something to believe in, whether it be science or the divine. It all comes down to the same thing in the end: there is some sort of order to the world. Whether that order is from scientific laws or the divine or some combination of both seems to be the underlying issue. ~Meryat |
| Posted by: freekenny 30-Nov-2004, 11:33 AM | ||
O'siyo reddrake, ~ If I may respond to some things I just read in your post..Tis only my opinion other words known as my 'two-cents' ~ First off...I don't believe in perfection..I don't believe it exists nor do I believe it ever existed.. I believe that with every change there was or is a specific reason for it...I am not certain what the reasons are but, a lot of things in life were meant, in my opinion, to remain a 'mystery' if you will..unsolved...hence the reason for scientific research and experimentation..gives us humans 'something to do'..~Secondly, I don't believe anything genetic 'was lost'...I believe that with all things, everything had to change in order to adapt to a ever changing world, environment, era... I believe it could go back to Darwinism..'survival of the fittest'...it was never meant for everything to survive in this world..that wouldn't be natural...all things live hence all things must 'die'..make room for new species..It all has to do with 'change'...tis my opinion on these issues  ~And for the record..I do not believe that we or Mother Earth was ever without 'sin'..after all what is sin?..my belief on sin is not something that is written or documented in a book or written by someone who claims to be better/greater than myself..to me a sin is 'something, actions/words, that one does and it just doesn't feel right for YOU; gives you a pang if you will in your spirit'..doesn't matter what it means to someone else for each individual is so different, thank gawd  so 'sin' can mean so many things..I believe that word like so many others HAS to be based on each individual..~~Sty-U, Nomaste', Shalom |
| Posted by: maisky 02-Dec-2004, 06:58 AM |
| It doesn't surprise me AT ALL that Freekenny is a deep thinker an philosopher. Thank you for your thoughts, my friend. Science vs faith? From a Buddhist perspective, there is NO conflict between science and religeon. Life is a process of seeking and discovery. Our understanding of the universe is growing rapidly. Sometimes it is hard to turn loose of ideas and concepts that prove to be "less than true". We are each responsible for reviewing and questioning our understanding and beliefs. If we don't DO that we become something less than human. My dog has pure faith: I am her god. |
| Posted by: freekenny 03-Dec-2004, 03:18 PM | ||
O'siyo maisky, ~ You humble me, Ni Ya We O'ginalli!  ~~ Here Here!! You are so correct when saying, 'Life is a process of seeking and discovery. ~ We are each responsible for reviewing and questioning our understanding and beliefs. If we don't DO that we become something less than human. EXACTLY! Very well said!!  ~~ How lucky is the Dump!! To have a god such as yourself!! ~~Sty-U |
| Posted by: maria 23-Jun-2005, 08:35 AM |
| We needs believe in smth because nature hates mind! |
| Posted by: Aaediwen 23-Jun-2005, 05:01 PM | ||
say what? huh??  |
| Posted by: j Padraig moore 23-Jun-2005, 05:19 PM | ||
Um..I don't get it either. maria, can you explain what that means? (...nature hates mind...) thanks |
| Posted by: sorbus 11-Aug-2005, 08:03 AM |
| Perhaps instead of Talking To God We Listen For a Change and Read what already he has revealed Tak Tent Tae God`s Coonsel No Ooor Ai  n |
| Posted by: Aaediwen 11-Aug-2005, 07:08 PM |
| I eventually Googled an answer. Not sure I agree with it, but seems to boil down to the idea of art bringing out and emphesizing imprefections in nature. As if that's a bad thing... I think the imperfections are part of the beauty, myself |
| Posted by: Eventide 16-Aug-2005, 05:36 PM |
| I have not read all the answers Back to the original question-- Cavemen or modern ecclectic cosmopolitan city dwellers-- It still boils down to mortality, the one thing that has remained constant through the Ages. We are still mortal, we age, we die and we still don't know if there is an afterlife. By accepting a belief it eases the transition. It does not need to be more complicated than that IMHO. However to borrow a phrase: power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. To have an idea about something is pure thought, it can be shared and expressed, accepted or denied without effort. Yet to believe in something remains bloody and can be dangerous, wars even to this day are being wagered because of it. Think about it. |
| Posted by: stoirmeil 22-Aug-2005, 03:32 PM | ||
It's at the core of cores.  I think you are right that it does not need to be more complicated than that, but it is typically wrapped in a lot of layers. That's the human gift and curse at the same time -- infinite elaboration to defend against truth that is too unpleasant or frightening to look at straight on. |
| Posted by: Eventide 23-Aug-2005, 09:10 AM |
| Yes, now that you mention Stoirmeil, it is. |
| Posted by: CelticCoalition 23-Aug-2005, 11:07 AM |
| I like what Kevin Smith has to say about religion in Dogma: Rufus: (Talking about Jesus) He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it. BETHANY: Having beliefs isn't good? RUFUS: I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant. As to WHY we have to have these beleifs? I think it's because of fear. We are afraid of what we don't know, and putting up a belief structure to explain what we don't know makes us feel safer. It also allows people to make sense out of that which has no sense. It's easier to go through life with someone to blame for all the bad stuff that happens to us, and for the random good things that happen to us, than it is to believe that maybe things just happen. God, religion, whatever, is the ultimate scapegoat and is conveniently never around to defend himself. I think this quote sums it all up for me, from (I think) George Carlin: God is an invisible friend for adults. |
| Posted by: Eventide 23-Aug-2005, 02:50 PM | ||
My point exactly...wouldn't life be more ALIVE if we had the ability to look at mortality full on and just accept that there are things we will never completely know? When I wake up in the morning, I say to myself-- well this might be my last. It makes every daily encounter with people and other tasks, little details, important and cherished, just simply because it happened...It forces me to really be aware of my suroundings. |
| Posted by: CelticCoalition 24-Aug-2005, 10:27 AM |
| Well, and I might not know if there is an afterlife or not...but so what if there is? I"m still alive now. Carpe de diem....sieze the carp. |
| Posted by: Eventide 24-Aug-2005, 11:43 AM |
| And what a "carp"! Fishing is good sport! |
| Posted by: stoirmeil 25-Aug-2005, 09:22 AM |
| Heehee. . . And if you had a seafood restaurant, you would put a sign in the window: Carpe diem ("catch of the day"). That thing about imaginary friend for adults is cute. I've been reading a good book about imaginary companions and the children who create them, and there was a nice little anecdote about a boy who confronted his dad about being Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy. . . all of which the dad admitted to. Then the boy said "So, I guess you must be God, too, huh?" |
| Posted by: CelticCoalition 25-Aug-2005, 09:57 AM |
| Wow, that's great about accusig the father of being God. Kids... |
| Posted by: Eventide 25-Aug-2005, 03:33 PM |
| haha Stoirmeil. kids say the darndest things, bless their little souls. |
