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Celtic Radio Community > Welsh > Croeso I Gymru


Posted by: Siarls 02-May-2005, 05:39 AM
Hi. I saw the Croeso y gymru topic and was impressed that the mutation was correctly applied. smile.gif Although y means "the", and i means "to". Also, countries, especially Wales, always begin with a capital letter in Welsh, mutation or not. It's a little offensive to spell Cymru Chymru Gymru Nghymru without capitals. I have even seen these: CHymru NGhymru. (Welsh Alphabet: http://cy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yr_wyddor_Gymraeg )


Anyway, it got me thinking about mutations and it is a huge problem that learners have to overcome. Even the different dialects are aware of the correct usage of mutations and whatever the word, a mutation will always appear if it must - whether it's Standard Welsh, dialectal or borrowed from English.

Raise your concerns about treigladau mutations here! biggrin.gif
Or any other grammar point you need clarified. thumbs_up.gif

Posted by: gwenynen 02-May-2005, 08:12 AM
Siarls, you are so helpful! Llawer o ddiolch! But aren't there anyone else learning Welsh besides Susanna and me? I feel guilty for hogging Siarls all to myself! Please, other learners, join us!

Your offer to assist in the Welsh grammar is like offering a scrumptious dinner to a starved person! Since there is no Welsh speaker or learner at all in my town to ask questions, even the most basic thing befuddles me.

One of the zillion things that's so hard for me to get used to is 'possessive adjectives as pronoun objects of verb-nouns.' This is from 'Modern Welsh' by Gareth King. A sample sentence: 'Dw i am eu cynnwys nhw.' Do you have to use 'eu' to sound natural? And if the object isn't a pronoun, for example, Rhys, will the sentence read like this? 'Dw i am cynnwys Rhys.'

Posted by: Siarls 02-May-2005, 10:03 AM
Pronouns are a bit awkward in Welsh. I'll give you the two lists and label them "Llenyddol" and "Llafar".

Llenyddol[b]
fy
dy
ei
ein
eich
eu

[b]Llafar[b]
fi
di
ef*/hi
ni
chi
nhw

*ef becomes [b]fe
when following a vowel

When writing in the highest register of formal Cymraeg Lenyddol, do not use the Llafar list AT ALL.
When writing formal letters, use the example you have given above, where the Llenyddol pronoun goes before the verb and the Llafar pronoun follows the verb..

HOWEVER, spoken Welsh will not use the Llenyddol list as it is too formal. Instead, we will place the pronoun in the same place as English.

Example: "I include Rhys" Dw i'n cynnwys Rhys
1. Wyf yn ei gynnwys
2. Dw i'n ei gynnwys ef
3. Fi'n cynnwys e(f)*
*when a word ends in f, Welsh speakers regularly do not pronounce the f. In the North, ef becomes o.

Posted by: gwenynen 02-May-2005, 08:48 PM
Let me make sure I understand you.


Why is the first list called "Llenyddol"? I thought they were possesive pronouns.


I need to get used to using 2. form to be able to write in letters. If I only learned the spoken form 3., I'm afraid I won't be able to use 2. when required. Is it too formal to use 2. in a forum like this?


I don't think I need to worry about writing in the highest register of formal Welsh. smile.gif

Posted by: Siarls 03-May-2005, 05:23 AM
I called it Llenyddol because although they are possessive pronouns, when acting as object pronouns, they are only done so in Literary Welsh and not in Spoken Welsh.

That is fine, please use the form of Welsh you find easiest. It is rather formal in Spoken Welsh, but not as odd as the highest register. People will think you're educated... but think you're wasting your breath on excess syllables!!!

Posted by: gwenynen 03-May-2005, 07:30 AM
Diolch, Siarls. Now I know why I don't always see 'ei gynnwys ef' form in some dialogs at BBC Learn Welsh.

Another question (I've accumilated a lot!) What causes the soft mutation at the beggining of a sentence when you are addressing someone as in: "Blant, ..." "Fechgyn, ..." also in "Ddim ar y mynydd." - this is from Te yn y Grug.


Posted by: susieq76 03-May-2005, 08:44 AM
Hey guys, I am moving this to the Celtic Language forum. Any topics on language should go there. Thanks! And thank you SO much for posting on this topic. The mutations have been a bit confusing to me, as well. I just tried looking at is as a way to pronounce the words more easily, as it gave the sentence better flow. But then, I know nothing of Welsh grammar, let alone English grammar, lol!

Posted by: Siarls 03-May-2005, 04:02 PM
I think we are the only people in the Wales forum at the moment. I hope it livens up - WALES IS GREAT! COME ON OVER!!

Generally, mutations are a way of making words easier to pronounce. In English and many other languages, pronunciation will change in certain situations to make the word easier said, but the spelling remains. The Celtic Languages have been pretty progressive in phonetics. Completely phonetic is the Welsh Language.
example of "assimilation", as an English mutation is called:
to have Welsh phonetics: tw haf
to have to Welsh phonetics tw haff tw
The English spelling remains the same - Welsh changes.

There are some grammatical points though.Let this sink in first.

Posted by: Siarls 04-May-2005, 07:34 AM
Treigladau Trwynol Nasal Mutations

Nasal Mutations are not as important as Treigladau Meddal Soft Mutations and the only two places where you have to really remember to use them are after the pronoun fy and the preposition yn.
Good advice on how to pronounce these mutations is change the mutation's place. DO NOT do this in writing, but in speech, it will make it far easier to pronounce and help your Welsh accent.
Examples:
My car fy nghar, but pronounce it as fyng har
In Wales Yng Nghymru, but pronounce it as yng hymru
My father fy nhad, but pronounce it as fyn had
In Gorseinon (my town), yng Ngorseinon, but pronounce it as [i]yng Orseinon[/b]

Does this help?

Posted by: Siarls 04-May-2005, 07:49 AM
QUOTE (gwenynen @ 03-May-2005, 09:30 AM)
Diolch, Siarls. Now I know why I don't always see 'ei gynnwys ef' form in some dialogs at BBC Learn Welsh.

Another question (I've accumilated a lot!)  What causes the soft mutation at the beggining of a sentence when you are addressing someone as in: "Blant, ..." "Fechgyn, ..." also in "Ddim ar y mynydd." - this is from Te yn y Grug.

As to your question on soft mutations, Gwenynen. I am not overly sure why this has been done. Soft mutations are a constant cause of pain for both natives and learners. I would have to see the context of these words - perhaps the sentence that follows.
Often, soft mutations are caused by words that should be there, but have been left out. This is difficult to explain, but put it this way: a lot of words are not considered necessary to understand a sentence, but the mutation MUST remain.

This is why when you say "I did not say", you say, Ddywedais i ddim. The word that is missing is Ni. As you can see, you don't need to say the Ni to understand the sentence, but the mutation is absolutely obligatory - spoken, colloquial, dialectal, literary, formal or standard Welsh - the mutation will ALWAYS be there.

Make sense?

Posted by: gwenynen 04-May-2005, 09:54 AM
The full sentences are: "Wel blant, dych chi eisiau stori?"
"Sut mae fechgyn. Faint o'r gloch daethoch chi yma?"

I only wrote from my memory in my last post. I dug up my old lessons and found them.


It makes so much sense when you explain the second point that way. I only learned that you soft/aspirate mutate the first letter of the verb for an inflected, negative sentence.

Diolch.

Posted by: gwenynen 04-May-2005, 12:59 PM
I finalley understood fully the logic behind the form I was asking you: "Dw i'n dy garu di." Thank you for patiently explaining it to me. This was one of the items I was avoiding to face because it was too confusing (including counting and years.) I feel as if my eyes were suddenly opened. I can see now!

Though I may sound a bit formal, I do want to use this form. It's a little sad to hear that the trends are to skip the possesive pronouns before the verb-nouns. I think it's so attractively Welsh.

Well this is only my impression. In any case, diolch yn fawr, Siarls. smile.gif

Posted by: susieq76 06-May-2005, 11:26 AM
Hmmm....I am afraid I may need to get a bit more basic even than that to start with. I have learned words, and what to say, but they don't do a good job of teaching grammar in the books you pick up in stores. Would you be willing to post on grammar from the beginning, or is there a book either of you would recommend? Now that I am out of school, I can actually devote time to this (what a concept - time!).

Posted by: gwenynen 06-May-2005, 12:38 PM
Susanna, the best way to start is not with the grammar but BBC Learn Welsh, I'd say. They have excellent programs for free. You can start from the scratch there and move onto more advanced level. After you've learned for a while, a time will come when you simply want to dig into the grammar to understand more. If you start from the grammar, you are likely to get discouraged. Best wishes! smile.gif

Posted by: Siarls 07-May-2005, 03:41 PM
I was looking at Heini Gruffydd - his work is good.
Especially Talk Welsh which will give you the entire basis to spoken Welsh. Although written Welsh is a little neglected in this book.

I don't mind answering any questions you might have - just post them wherever and when and I'll get round to answering them! In here or new thread - you're the moderator, Susieg!!! smile.gif

Posted by: Siarls 07-May-2005, 03:59 PM
By the way, Gwenynen. I need to do research on your question about that grammatical note on soft mutation. I spoke with some friends and we were all very disputed over why.
I thought it may have been because the were the subjects of a concise verb clause and that's why I wanted to see the sentences. Don't worry about this yet. Only when you want to start writing essays and books, or feel like a grammatical challenge. The website www.verbix.com will come in handy when you want to tackle concise verb conjugation!

Posted by: gwenynen 07-May-2005, 06:54 PM
Diolch, Siarls. I'll take your advice!

Posted by: Siarls 10-May-2005, 08:44 AM
In the meantine, use www.verbix.com to conjugate the verb bod because you know how crucial this verb is.

Posted by: gwenynen 10-May-2005, 03:17 PM
It's a neat website. My computer is MAC so I can't use the Window items. They say the on-line conjugator is under construction so there may be mistakes. Have you found any?

Posted by: Siarls 10-May-2005, 03:27 PM
I haven't actually used it properly yet. (No need, of course!!). But I came across it while trying to conjugate Italian verbs. It was wonderful for Italian, so I presumed it would be for Welsh. I will check it with my class notes. Although, at first glance - I never knew Welsh had a subjunctive and it doesn't include the amhersonol.

Posted by: Siarls 11-May-2005, 02:49 PM
Well, actually, it looks like verbix is going to be very comprehensive and a great source, but for the time being - wait til it's fully constructed. It's present tense for the verb bod was in fact the future tense, meanwhile - they haven't conjugated the present tense yet. The other tenses demonstrated were very literal... very advanced indeed, even for me.
We'll keep our eyes on it, though.

Posted by: gwenynen 11-May-2005, 06:44 PM
I'm so relieved to hear the site is very advanced even for you. In fact, I've never seen many of the variations. I was scared!

I use BBC Wales Learn Welsh for conjugations and dictionary help. I'm assuming they are correct.

Posted by: Siarls 12-May-2005, 08:40 AM
I am hoping that eventually you'll be able to progress to a very literary and Eisteddfodly level, Gwenynen. These conjugations in verbix feel like something out of Lord of the Rings. The true Elvish. It's a shame that modern Welsh has lost a lot of its originality, like you were saying about speakers now saying yn cynnwys e rather than the more elegant form yn ei gynnwys ef.

I am sure BBC Learn Welsh is fine. It's something I suggest to people but haven't researched yet. But I found the Learn Gaelic to be quite difficult. Have you tried http://www.bbc.co.uk/colinandcumberland ?

Posted by: gwenynen 12-May-2005, 12:25 PM
Eisteddfodly level! I don't know if I'll live long enough to reach there!

Cumberland doesn't work with MAC.

Posted by: Siarls 12-May-2005, 04:50 PM
You will. Many prize winners at the Eisteddfod are not native to Welsh. Gwenynen Gwent herself, for example.

One day, you will understand Welsh with such finesse , you will outdo most natives. I'm sure you will impress yourself with a letter. Try translating your CV into Welsh!

Posted by: gwenynen 13-May-2005, 08:28 AM
But she was born in Wales.

Of course I want to learn more Welsh and become reasonably fluent because I love Wales and her language. I'm willing to work hard. My difficulty comes from haveing no access to face-to- face contact with Welsh speakers or learners. I've been learning by whatever the method or program which seem good. I often take detours, but they are by no means useless.

OK. When I win the National Eisteddfod in the learners' category one day and am interviewd, I'll say I owe my accomplishment to Siarls Wilson who inspired me to aim high! smile.gif

Posted by: Siarls 13-May-2005, 09:28 AM
But Welsh was not her first language, was it? If I have a confession, Welsh is not my first language. I did not speak Welsh fluently until I moved to Wales 10 years ago. It may not be quite the same thing, seen as I was about 11 when I moved to Wales, but nonetheless... officially, you cannot say that Welsh is my first language!

There is a learner's tent actually. Pabell y Dysgwyr. I worked one day in there last year. Seen as I'm a Welsh tutor, I thought I'd give it a go! I love tutoring Welsh.

Have you ever spoken face-to-face with a Welsh speaker? How did you find it?

Do you have any other queries/difficulties with the Welsh language you'd like me to clarify?

Posted by: gwenynen 13-May-2005, 10:03 PM
Since she was born in Wales, I assumed she grew up speaking it. I re-checked her Society site but there was no mention of it

Even if Welsh isn't your first language, you're fluent now. Siarls, you're so good. All the learners of any languages need someone like you.

A dweud y gwir (I have to impress this into my brain,) I've never talked to any Welsh speakers face-to-face nor on the phone. There is simply no one who is interested in Welsh around here.

Woops, I hear a thunder now. I have to quit the computer. Hwyl am y tro.

Posted by: gwenynen 14-May-2005, 10:53 PM
That was a powerful thunderstorm! I still had to go pick up my daughter at her work when it was pouring late at night. I could hardly see the road.

I'm continuing my last post. I'd like to ask you further about where to put stress in words but I'll post in Lessons in Welsh to avoid mixing up threads.

Posted by: Siarls 15-May-2005, 04:07 PM
We had a strange thunderstorm last week. My house faces west and the night was clear, but across Carmarthenshire, not far away, there was lightening that was lighting up the sky. It was constantly flashing, but there wasn't a sound! It was deadly silent above my house. I drove home in it, but because of the silence, I thought it was laser lights from England. (Swansea is now and again subject to powerful laser light displays from Devon!)

Posted by: Siarls 24-May-2005, 05:41 AM
USING YN AS A PREPOSITION

When you want to say in Cardiff[/], [i]in Wales etc., the yn causes a nasal mutation.

http://jade.ccccd.edu/grooms/trglmn.htm

It must also be noted, that yn itself also "mutates":
before NG/NGH = yng
before M/MH = ym

Therefore, in Cardiff[/b] becomes yng Nghaerdydd.

NOTE
There are a couple of notes to make. Firstly, this only happens when using [i]yn
as a preposition, not as a verb, adjective or adverb.

Secondly, we do not mutate place names that are not Welsh. For example, we would mutate a word like Rhufain ("Rome"), but only because it is a Welsh word. If there were no Welsh word for Rome, it would not be mutated.
Therefore, places like Tokyo, Moscow, Buenos Aires and California will not be mutated.
The yn will still mutate to ym before words beginning with M.

However, a few non-Welsh place names are selectively mutated, depending on the speaker. These do not have to be mutated, but sometimes are. Examples:
Canada, Paris, Mecsico and Brussels.

Posted by: austaff 24-May-2005, 08:13 PM
Thanks Siarls I have read all your pages in this thread I understand some of it however it is many years since I was in school and I must admit I am not up with tenses adjectives etc as grammar was not my strongest subject so I may seem rather slow.

With me I guess the best way and maybe the same for the rest is to show us where we have made the mistake when we make it when we write in welsh by re writing the sentence with the correct grammar and mutations that way we can see where we are going wrong and hopefully not make the same mistake again.

I think it is great that you take the time to help us with our welsh studies as we surely need a tutor to help with the welsh we are trying to learn via the web and its great to practice writing it here and to have you correct our grammar etc "so please dont leave until we are as fluent as yourself" smile.gif

Posted by: Siarls 27-May-2005, 11:55 AM
I enjoy tutoring... I take great pleasure in doing so (although I get £25 an hour here in Wales wink.gif)

I am a bit worried about tutoring over the Internet however, because I speak and scribble notes on paper as I tutor to show what I mean. I study languages at degree level and absolutely adore grammar, so I think I can be quite intense - tell me tone down if I'm going out of normality and into complicated-ville!!!

By the way, Gwenynen, I did a lot of research on soft mutations and according to this list of rules I have:
Rule 25. Greetings. Example, fechgyn a merched / ferched a bechgyn.

I did not know this myself and as you can see - there are A LOT of rules when it comes to soft mutation (the others are relatively easy though). Going over it in my head, I would not mutate in this context, but it is clearly proper Welsh. Showing that even a native can learn!

Posted by: gwenynen 27-May-2005, 12:16 PM
'Greetings' --- ! What a simple rule! I know what you mean; there are rules that even native speakers don't know and can't explain both in English and Japanese.

I hope you'll be as intense as you wish! I want to learn Welsh really well. I'll never be fluent as a native speaker, of course. But I want to become as reasonably fluent as possible. I'm so thankful you are in this forum!

Posted by: Siarls 27-May-2005, 12:28 PM
You can be as fluent as a native. I think the only thing getting in your way is of course your distance from Wales. Otherwise, you cannot dismiss your skills - fluency is perfectly achievable.

Posted by: gwenynen 27-May-2005, 04:09 PM
Diolch, Siarls for giving me hope. smile.gif I'm getting used to reading and writing Welsh but as you say, being far not only from Wales but from any Welsh speakers or learners, my speaking lags far far behind.

By the way, who is Kylie?

Posted by: Siarls 27-May-2005, 04:59 PM
Kylie Minogue. I'm a huge fan. And did you know her mother was born in Wales? That's right people - another huge contribution made to the music world, made by the Welsh smile.gif

Speaking will be difficult. Have you tried reading aloud or making up little speeches? I do this with my other languages. Force your children to listen to you!!

Posted by: gwenynen 27-May-2005, 11:40 PM
I try reading aloud and making up dialogs, but maybe not enough. I need to be doing it more. Diolch for reminding me. Although if I tried to speak Welsh to my children, they'd run away!

Posted by: Siarls 28-May-2005, 04:09 PM
What about your husband?!!! I'd like to hear you speak Welsh, actually. It's rare I get to hear foreigners speak Welsh. I have never heard an American accent in the Welsh language.

I've heard English people make random attempts. I have so often heard English people say, "Kumroo ambuth" when trying to say "Cymru am byth". I have heard people say "Sigh-mroo" (they think that the Cy in Cymru is pronounced like the cy in cyan!!!).

But these people don't speak Welsh to a level beyond random words! I doubt they have any interest at all - I feel patronised when people spew random Welsh words at me in a tangled form.

Oh, and this one guy said to me, "I can say red in Welsh". The Welsh word, as I'm sure you know, is coch, which should be spelt côch because it's a long O. However, the word this guy came out with is too rude to be written here, but imagine coch written with a ck at the end! He then laughed as did all his friends, thinking it was very clever. I was actually incredibly offended, so much so I swore back at him. I am very passionate when it comes to my language and country and I do not take kindly to people using my proud and ancient culture as a joke.

Posted by: gwenynen 28-May-2005, 05:10 PM
My husband isn't interested in Welsh, I'm afraid. I don't have any typical American accent, I'm sure. I more likely have Japanese/American mixed up accent in my Welsh!

I know how you feel when people throw random Welsh at you. I've had the similar experience with Japanese. Though non of the people I encountered meant to ridicule me, I wasn't so delighted to have ill-pronounced Japanese words thrust to me.

I've struck up a deal with my second daughter who's learning Spanish; We'll speak to each other in the languages we are learning. Of course we won't understand each other but at least that will give us a chance to speak aloud to a person (instead of to a stuffed animal!) smile.gif

I do love your proud and ancient culture and language.

Posted by: Siarls 29-May-2005, 06:14 AM
Thank you. I have a lot of respect for Japan, but could never try learning Japanese. I'd love to visit someday.

I assumed you'd have an American accent because you have been learning Welsh through English and I'm sure you have an American accent when speaking English! Do you have an accent when speaking Japanese? I'd love to hear a Japanese accent in Welsh - that would be so strange to me!!! My Italian friend has spoken some Japanese to me now and again. She finds Japanese really difficult.

I was going to go on and on about past experiences, but deleted it all because they all prove the same point - people don't express the respect to the Welsh Language that I feel it deserves.

To everyone:
I hope you're OK with some of my dialectal phrases. I am a very proud person who choses to speak the way I wish and my dialect is who I am and how I speak Welsh. I've done a mix and match of dialect and standard, but if there is anything you need clarity on.
Just to show you some of my main colloquialisms:
Sai'n Dw i ddim yn
Shwd Sut
Shwr Sicr
-adw -adwy, as in ofnadwy or dealladwy

Posted by: gwenynen 29-May-2005, 06:44 PM
I definitely don't have an English accent! My English must be more American than England English simply because I'm in USA. And I must speak a lot like my husband whose English is very easy to understand without any accents.

Unfortunately I don't speak Japanese with any accent. I grew up near Tokyo where there isn't much dialects. There are some charming Japanese dialects. I love hearing them.

ACEN, I believe has a Japanese language course book taught by the medium of Welsh! I wonder if they sell many?

Posted by: gwenynen 30-May-2005, 10:31 AM
I'm sure you'll find Japan a pleasant place to visit. Japanese are very polite and extremely obliging to Western visitors. There even is a Welsh society in Japan, and they teach Welsh classes using BBC Learn Welsh! I once watched a s4c documentary about a Welsh woman married to a Japanese man. Their wedding ceremony was performed in Welsh by a Welsh minister.

Posted by: Siarls 31-May-2005, 04:34 AM
I have never seen any foreign language books through the medium of Welsh, although I have seen French- and Esperanto-Welsh dictionaries.

Which dictionaries do you use with Welsh?
I was in a Welsh book shop in Cardiff when I saw the Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru - the most comprehensive dictionary I have ever seen in any language!!! It wasn't just one book, it was several. No English.

Posted by: gwenynen 31-May-2005, 07:02 AM
I have two dictionaries (W-E and E-W.) One is by Heini Gruffudd I mentioned before which has been 'torri o'r neilltu o ganlyniad i'w ddefnydd aml.' smile.gif The other is Hippocrene Standard Dictionary. I like Griffudd's dic a lot because it has example sentences and pronunciation help. The only inconvenience is it has too few words (20,000.) That's why I bought the other one but it's not as good as Griffudd's. Could you ask Dr. Griffudd, if you have a chance, if he'd consider making a new dictionary in the same format but with twice as many words (on thinner paper to make it compact?)

Posted by: Siarls 31-May-2005, 04:00 PM
I'll see if I come across Dr Gruffydd. He was in the campus cafe today with my personal tutor, Dr Rhys and another very admired lecturer, Dr James.

Y Geiriadur Mawr is fairly useful and recommended because not only does it have an English translation of the word, it has a Welsh explanation of the word. It also lists of words in common, for example, "Fruits" and then beneath it is listed all the fruit in Welsh with English translation and vice versa.
It also has place names and personal names. I use Y Geiriadur Mawr almost daily. Although I am a little offended because the University of Wales allows English dictionaries into our exams and not Welsh dictionaries and I was sitting Italian literature this morning without a clue of how to say trosiad in English.

Posted by: Siarls 20-Jun-2005, 04:42 AM
It's quite appropriate to put your corrections here Austaff because it is mainly mutations you have to work on. Don't dispair though - mutations are easy once you get the hang of them - they accentuate the poetry of the Welsh language and you speak Welsh very well otherwise. However, it is the misuse of mutations that will always give a way a non-native or non-fluent speaker.

Beth am postio y cywiro ateb yn yr edau Croeso i Gymru, neu e bost hi i fy. Dw i agor i awgrymiadau. Beth wneud y eraill meddwl? Dydw y ddim eisiau i beidio y fwrdd 'ma o weithio.

Beth am bostio yr ateb cywir yn yr edau Croeso i Gymru, neu (ei) e-bostio fe imi. Dw i ar agor i awgrymiadau. [I'd rather you said this at this point, gwneud in place of bod is getting a bit ahead of yourself at this stage, I feel:] Beth ydy'r eraill yn meddwl? Dw i ddim eisiau peidio'r bwrdd ma o weithio.

How do you feel about this? Anything need clarity?

Posted by: austaff 20-Jun-2005, 11:18 PM
Siarls

Diolch Siarls mae hynny'n wych..Fydda i ddysgu lawer o treigliadau y ffordd 'ma gobeithio

could i have also said here 'na wych instead of mae hynny'n wych? It is very kind of you to help us out this way as all of us have been learning welsh by ourselves so it is great that you will give up some of your time this way it is greatly appreciated believe me thumbs_up.gif

Feel free to pick holes anytime it is the only way to learn biggrin.gif

Posted by: Siarls 21-Jun-2005, 05:32 PM
'Na wych is excellent. It's very idiomatic. I say it all the time. It's a very Southern expression though and therefore considered colloquial, not Standard Welsh at all. Of course, this means "na" can be applied to almost any adjective as the English "how".

Examples:
'Na hyfryd - how lovely
'Na ni - there we are
'Na lwcus - how lucky

Posted by: gwenynen 26-Jun-2005, 05:01 PM
I'm continuing my post in 'Welsh literature.'

Let me quote a few lines from the book:
Yna roedd y capten yn siarad - yn Saesneg - unwaith eto. 'Wel, pwy sy am ynuno â'r criw?' Syrthiodd ei lygad ar gorff mawr Abram Tomos a Barti yn ei ymyl. 'Beth amdanoch chi'ch dau?' gofynnodd. 'Dim diolch yn fawr, Capten,'meddai Barti, yn Gymraeg! 'Wel! Wel! Cymro wyt ti, iefe?' Yntau hefyd yn Gymraeg yn awr. 'Ie,' meddai Barti, 'dau Gymro - o Sir Benfro.' Agorodd y capten ei lygaid led y pen, a chwaraeai gwên fach o gwmpas ei wefusau. --- "Y Môr yn eu Gwaed" by T. Llew Jones (pp. 44 - 45)

What does 'led y pen' mean, Siarls? T Llew used it in other pages too. Also what's 'yntau'?

I'll try to do my best to translate for non-Welsh speakers. I may be wrong:
Then the capten was speaking - in English - again. 'Well, who wants to join the crew?' He lowered his eyes on the big form of Abram Tomos and Barti near him. 'What about you two?' asked him. 'No thank you, Capten,' said Barti, in Welsh! 'Well, Well, you're Welshmen, is it?' now in Welsh also. 'Yes,' said Barti, 'two Welshmen from Pembrokeshire.' The capten opened his eyes (led y pen) and a small smile played on his lips.

Posted by: austaff 27-Jun-2005, 12:00 AM
Sounds a funny book Gwenynen did you buy or hire them from a library

Posted by: gwenynen 27-Jun-2005, 07:42 AM
I bought it through the internet. There is no book in Welsh in my small local library. Even English books on Welsh themes are rare. Besides, I want a copy of my own so that I can underline and write notes all over!

I need to correct my translation: The captain (not capten as in Welsh!) says, "Well, well, you're a Welshman, is it?" -- as it's "wyt ti?"

Posted by: Siarls 01-Jul-2005, 09:56 AM
If you want to say, "I would like to", then Byddwn i'n hoffi is acceptable, but the concise form of the verb is far more popular and easier. Simply use Hoffwn i followed by a soft mutation.

e.g. Hoffwn i glywed Gwenynen ganu'r Hen Wlad

Most cash points in Wales now ask before you enter your PIN:
"Hoffech chi ddefnyddio Gymraeg?"
"-Hoffwn"
"-Na Hoffwn"

Posted by: Siarls 02-Jul-2005, 08:50 AM
The past tense can sometimes be quite difficult in Welsh.

However, if you want to say that someone did something when whist they were young, it's the same as English. Past simple (called the preterite in English and simply as the gorffennol in Welsh) followed by the imperfect/amherffaith.

E.g. My son learned to play piano when he was young.
Dysgodd fy mab chwarae'r piano pryd yr oedd yn ifanc.

The endings for the preterite/gorffennol tense are very simple in Welsh, it's usually the verb stems one must get used to.

Posted by: gwenynen 02-Jul-2005, 09:56 AM
1. I'm not sure the construction after pryd - pryd yr oedd yn ifanc. Can you say "pryd (or pan?) roedd e'n ifanc"?

2. I was taught 'canu'r piano' for play the piano. Is 'chwarae' used also?

3. Is 'cymryd' as well as 'para' used for duration of time too?




Posted by: Siarls 02-Jul-2005, 04:32 PM
I think canu'r piano is correct in fact, I may well be using an anglicism. I think it's a shame in fact that anglicisms have become so common in Welsh. Let me ask my friend who is a professional piano player - in fact, he plays the organ for the Welsh chapel in Pontlliw (Austaff will know Pontlliw!)

"Pan oedd yn ifanc". Hmm... sounds much better in Standard Welsh, but when I say it aloud - I feel very formal and literary, almost like a book. I must admit, I'm a little sketchy on the pryd y. Pan is never used here in the Lliw Valley - my friends and I talked about it once - my organ playing friend had never heard of the word pan before!

I'm very impressed with you today, Gwenynen. I'm unsure about this cymryd and para. I must admit that I didn't realise para was a word - I thought it was a spoken version of parhau, although I know see from http://www.geiriadur.net that it seems to be an acceptable synonym for parhau. Once again, I am fearing that I am using anglicisms. Although that being said, I use a lot of Welshisms in my English!!!!! Let me talk with my friends. I'll try and bring them on here with me at some point.

Posted by: Siarls 06-Jul-2005, 04:14 AM
Well, I have not spoken Welsh in over a week. My Welsh-speaking friends and I just don't seem to be free at the same times. It's still on my mind these questions though, Gwenynen.

Posted by: Siarls 06-Jul-2005, 04:17 AM
The main thing that struck me about your grammar today Austaff, is that you're unaware of how to say that I in Welsh. I don't want to correct everything and dishearten you, but this is fairly important.

For the time being, use the Standard Welsh version fy mod i'n.
Therefore,
fy mod i'n Gymro that I am Welsh
Mae fy ngwraig yn dweud fy mod i'n siarad Cymraeg my wife says that I speak Welsh

Posted by: gwenynen 06-Jul-2005, 08:00 AM
I've seen "fy mod i'n" used omitting "fy." Could you give us other frequently used variations that learners may use?

Does anyone else in your family speak Welsh, Siarls?

Posted by: Siarls 06-Jul-2005, 08:05 AM
Yeh, all my mother's side speak Welsh, including my brothers. But we've lapsed into English recently! And I barely see them either.

Yes, versions of "fy mod i'n" in the South include:

mod i'n
fy mod yn
bod fi'n
bo fi'n

Is-gymalau (subordinate clauses) can be quite awkward in Welsh. How does everyone feel about them?

Posted by: austaff 07-Jul-2005, 06:01 PM
Siarls

Dont be afraid to correct me at any times as it is the only way to learn and I am sure that it is also helping others that use this forum, yoy wont dishearten me thats for sure, and now of course I now know how to say "that" which is great biggrin.gif

cofion gorau


Posted by: Siarls 12-Jul-2005, 05:04 PM
Just to let you know, that "ni" causes a soft mutation, even if it is elided from a sentence.

Therefore, "Wn i ddim"

And "Ni allwn" (although the g is gone, the 'a' is regarded as a mutation, rather than a vowel. We discussed this curiosity in a lecture once).

If you use, "ni", it is very formal and literary and should be used consistently. Therefore, if you were to say, "Wn i ddim", then use "Allwn i ddim", or "Ni wn" and "Ni allwn".

I love the negative "ni" - it is so beautiful and it's a shame it is almost completely unused in spoken Welsh.

Posted by: gwenynen 15-Jul-2005, 06:43 PM
I came across this famous poem by Gwyn Edwards, "Nid Welsh Wyf Fi Ond Cymro."

Siarls, I don't understand the last line; could you translate?
: Nid yw'r Cymro hwn am fod yn 'model Welshman' i neb.

Another question: Do you use 'llefaru' for read aloud?

Posted by: Siarls 18-Jul-2005, 01:16 PM
I rough translation:

This Welshman does not wish to be a 'Model Welshman" to anybody.

I think you can use "llefaru" for read aloud, although i think it's more performing.

Posted by: gwenynen 18-Jul-2005, 06:24 PM
Diolch, Siarls! "am" surely has many meanings.

What do you use when you just read aloud to yourself or to your children?

Posted by: Siarls 19-Jul-2005, 05:05 AM
I used to be told,

Darllen hwn mas yn uchel!
Read this out loud

Posted by: gwenynen 19-Jul-2005, 06:38 PM
Diolch Siarls. I was always wondering.

Posted by: Siarls 20-Jul-2005, 04:36 AM
It sounds like an anglicism though, doesn't it?!

Posted by: gwenynen 20-Jul-2005, 11:17 AM
No idea. You are the judge. Can you think of less Anglicized expressions then?

Posted by: austaff 20-Jul-2005, 09:15 PM
For anybody conteplating learning welsh there is a very good computer program that is very inexpensive only $40 US from www.linguashop.com it has a dictionery and pronunciation part where you can speak into a mike and it will tell you how well you pronunce the welsh words. It has grammar tools and a story book etc

Posted by: gwenynen 28-Jul-2005, 02:39 PM
Austaff, this program looks great. But I'm afraid it won't work with my MAC (again!) I wish I could use it.

Posted by: austaff 28-Jul-2005, 09:31 PM
Gwenynen that is such a pity as it really is a very good and inexpensive program for those beginners who wish to speak or learn the welsh language, hopefully they will see this post and go from there

Posted by: Siarls 13-Aug-2005, 07:11 AM
I made a mistake myself, I'd like to point out.

We never say "Y Dyffryn Lliw" in Welsh. The same with rivers. You never say, "The River Seine", for example, in Welsh.

Therefore:
Dyffryn Lliw (The Lliw Valley)
Afon Tafwys (The River Thames)
Dinas Caerdydd (The City of Cardiff)
Sir Powys (The County of Powys)

Posted by: gwenynen 20-Aug-2005, 08:30 AM
As always, there are so many variations to Welsh expressions. I've been trying to get used to this one: If I were/had...., I would.....

Siarls, could you see if the following is acceptable?
Pe baswn i yn dy le di, baswn i'n byw yng Nghymru.

A grammar book recommends learners use the same verb (in this case, baswn) in both sides of a comma. what do you think? Also, how would you say the above sentence?


Also, how do you say, "How I wish I could...."?

Posted by: Siarls 21-Aug-2005, 09:27 AM
That's right. I agree and that the sentence "Pe baswn i..., baswn i'n..." is perfect. Yes, you must use the same verb both sides of the comma. My friend is with me now and he says he'd say "Os on i, byddai'n...", but I have to say I disagree with him.

I say "Pe 'ddwn i, 'ddwn i'n...", but I would never write that, I'm just saying "Pe byddwn i, byddwn i'n" really fast!!!

In Welsh, I don't think I've ever heard someone say, "How...". Like "how lucky" or "how fun". In this context, I think I'd be tempted to say:
Ych, fi'n dymuno y byddwn i'n gallu

Posted by: gwenynen 21-Aug-2005, 01:33 PM
Diolch, Siarls. Ych, fi'n dymuno y byddwn i'n gallu siarad Cymraeg yn rhugl! smile.gif

Posted by: Siarls 22-Aug-2005, 07:58 AM
Bendigedig, Gwen! Ti'n swnio fel reit Cymraes Gymraeg. Fi'n gallu clywed y dôn yn dy lais!!!
Excellent, Gwen! You sound like a right Welsh speaker! I can hear the tone in your voice!!!

Gyda llaw Austaff, does dim treiglad meddal ar ôl i "ac". Mae'n llenyddol iawn i ddweud "ac" pob tro. Os mae'r gair yn dechrau gyda chytsain, does dim angen y "c". Ti'n gallu dweud dim ond "a". Sut bynnag, mae treiglad llaes ar ôl i "a".
E.e. papur a beiro
beiro a phapur

By the way Austaff, there's no soft muation after "ac". It's very literary to say "ac" all the time. If the word begins with a consonant, you can just say "a", there's no need for the "c". However, there is an aspirate mutation after "a".
E.g. papur a beiro (paper and pen)
beiro a phapur (pen and paper)

TREIGLAD LLAES (only the letters C, P and T have aspirate mutations)

C => CH
P => PH
T => TH

I've always been able to remember this easily because it is the initials of me and my brothers!!!!!! (Charles, Paul and Thomas and as CPT is alphabetical, it is also the order of age - my being the oldest!)

Posted by: austaff 22-Aug-2005, 08:46 PM
Diolch Siarls I will try to remember TCP there is so much to learn isnt there but I am surprised that I have learned so much in the 12 months since I first started to learn the Welsh language. With your help and the others it has made it a little easier.

Posted by: Siarls 23-Aug-2005, 07:36 AM
There is a lot to learn, but take it step by step! Being too eager and rushing it will make you overlook important things! The Celtic Languages are awkward with their muatations (Welsh), eclipses (Irish) and lenitions (Scots Gaelic)!!!! They are also awkward with their registers of formality and of course their dialects.
However, once you get started, it's a smooth ride and you will just be taken with the flow of the Welsh Language. You'll be able to feel it and you'll be both surprised and impressed when you begin to feel what's right, what's wrong and what's acceptable!!!!

Posted by: gwenynen 23-Aug-2005, 07:56 AM
Indeed there is so much to learn! When I think I've cleared one hurdle, I come across another! But thanks to you, Siarls and other helpful Welsh, dw i'n cerdded ymlaen un cam ar y tro.

I've noticed reading published writings help a lot as Antwn mentioned before. I often find my answeres right in the book.

Rhaid i mi fynd nawr.

Posted by: Siarls 24-Aug-2005, 07:55 AM
No thanks necessary, honestly. Just let me know what you need and if I'm confusing you, rather than helping you! I would want to be an assistance, not a hindrance!!!
All of you and anyone.

Posted by: gwenynen 26-Aug-2005, 08:21 AM
Siarls, I found the answer to my question right in your post in Beginner's Welsh:
Mae'n hyfryd [COLOR=red]i weld....

I was wondering if I needed a preposition between "Mae'n hyfryd" and a verb-noun. And is it "i" or "at" or etc? I sould have read your post before I posted in another place. Yes, I made a mistake; I didn't use any preposition! O, wel. I know now.

Posted by: gwenynen 26-Aug-2005, 08:23 AM
Wps, the color didn't change! I meant to make the letter "i" red!

Posted by: Siarls 29-Aug-2005, 06:13 AM
How do you feel about preposition conjugations?

E.g.
imi
iti
iddo fe
iddi hi
ini
ichwi
iddynt, etc.

Posted by: gwenynen 29-Aug-2005, 07:28 AM
That's one of the difficult aspects in Welsh grammar. I just have to get used to it. Do you have any good idea in conquering it?

Posted by: Siarls 30-Aug-2005, 04:50 AM
Do you have the lists of preposition conjugations anywhere? If not, I can dig some out for you. Then, it's just a matter of learning the conjugations until you know them.

Let me know what it is you find difficult, and I shall find some cyngor amongst my books!

Posted by: gwenynen 30-Aug-2005, 07:21 AM
I do have lists, in books not in my head! I know I need to commit all of them to memory, but that's the hard part! I've got used to some which I come across often.

Posted by: Antwn ap Ioan 30-Aug-2005, 10:10 AM
Thanks Siarls, but my biggest problem is not the conjugation of prepositions, but which ones to use and when to use "to" and not to use "to" in a sentence. Often Welsh doesn't use the prepostion to like English does, but other times it is used. I get confused about whether or not to use it at all.

Also I get confused about when/whether to use ar and i after a verbnoun. For example you have chwilio ar but ymchwilio i. I think that's right. I have a book of prepositions (Pa Adroddiad) but it doesn't cover every one. I guess with time and practice one learns.

Antwn

Posted by: austaff 30-Aug-2005, 11:25 PM
I am totally confused they are very hard to master

Posted by: Siarls 31-Aug-2005, 10:06 AM
I've been going through books and papers, trying to find a solution to your difficulties. Of course, there is no easy one and I have even been reading essays, thinking, "Why have I put that preposition there? How did I know it was the right preposition?"

When it comes to conjugation, according to this paper I've found, there are 3 types of conjugation and of each, there is a Ffurf Lenyddol (literary form) and a Ffurf Lafar (colloquial form). In here, let's use the Llafar form so you get used to it when speaking Welsh (as you don't get much practice to speak Welsh).

I typed it out here, but it got too long, so if you want it, let me know and I shall email you the list I have here. But basically, the three types of conjugations that we use are <A>, <O> and <Y>. An example of each is: arnaf (On me), hebof (Without me) and wrthyf (By me).

As for knowing which preposition with which verb, I'm finding this frustrating myself. It seems that verbs that begin cy- and ym- are generally followed by the preposition â.
Generally, if you want to express towards, you use at. E.g. nesáu at (approach). We also use anfon at (send to), ysgrifennu at (write to), etc.

A verb that should be important to bear in mind is dweud. Always dweud wrth rhywun. (say to someone). E.g. Dywedodd wrthyf y bydd yn hwyr. He said to me that he will be late.

Again, I have lists. If you want them, I shall email them to you.

If at this stage, you're finding this too complicated, please express which part or, for the time being, ignore it and develop it when you feel more comfortable. At this stage, there may be more important things for you. You will pick it up slowly with time.

BTW, chwilio am.

Posted by: Siarls 31-Aug-2005, 10:08 AM
Of course, most prepositions are followed by Soft Mutations, therefore dweud wrth rywun!!!!!

Posted by: Antwn ap Ioan 31-Aug-2005, 12:18 PM
Yes, chwilio am....see what I mean!!?? Even with all my books its hard to keep them straight!

I have a question about your sentence "Dywedodd wrthyf y bydd yn hwyr". How do you know this refers to a he, since dywedodd can be dywedodd e or hi and so can bydd? Is this something one takes out of the context of the sentences before it, if it occurred in a book for example? Or is there some way I'm not seeing that would clue me into it being "HE said to me that HE'll be late"? You probably just chose he to explain the sentence, so if that's the case then don't mind my nitpicking, I just wanted to be sure I'm not missing something.


Posted by: Siarls 04-Sep-2005, 06:06 PM
It's a good question. Literary Welsh is like Italian and Spanish. Pronouns are not generally used, therefore you will know whether it is a HE or a SHE by context. If there is no context, just as you would in Spanish and Italian, you presume the subject to be HE. However, this is quite a high literary format and you do not have to deal with it in speech and lighter forms of literature. I used this sentence because although it is the highest register of formality, it is the most simple in words.

Posted by: Antwn ap Ioan 06-Sep-2005, 08:37 AM
Thanks Siarls, I had seen conjugated verbs w/o pronouns before translated as "he", now I understand. Thanks for the explanation.

Posted by: gwenynen 09-Sep-2005, 11:13 AM
The following is from Cymru Byd:

"Un o newyddiadurwyr BBC Cymru ddaeth o hyd i'r ffilmiau prin wrth ymchwilio i raglen ddogfen."

Isn't this sentence supposed to start with "Daeth un o ...."? Or is this another sentence structure? Or is it an Anglicized Welsh? Am I missing something? ???

Posted by: Siarls 10-Sep-2005, 03:36 PM
This is an emphatic sentence. Brawddeg Bwyslais yn Gymraeg. It's quite difficult to explain. Do you remember when I told you "Cymro yw e" is better than "Mae e'n Gymro"? It's this sort of pattern. Have you come across it yet?

Posted by: gwenynen 11-Sep-2005, 01:49 PM
OK, now I see. It's hard to undersatnd at first glance since the subject is so long. I just need to read Welsh more. Diolch, Siarls.

Posted by: gwenynen 14-Sep-2005, 01:09 PM
Siarls, as I was reading a Welsh blog today, I came across the expression you taught me a long time ago, "diwrnod i'r brenin." I was so happy that I yelled in my brain, "I know it!" It was a pun too since the bloger was talking about his day in London. smile.gif

Posted by: Siarls 15-Sep-2005, 03:27 PM
Well done! That's quite funny too. I have just stuck "Ble mae'r Gymraeg?" sticker on a road sign near my house which had no English on it! Someone placed a temporary Welsh sign underneath the English, the council removed it, so I decided to take action!

Posted by: gwenynen 16-Sep-2005, 07:50 AM
Did the council remove that one too?

Posted by: Siarls 16-Sep-2005, 01:56 PM
I haven't driven past it yet, but it's stuck onto the sign, so I think now I've actually ruined the sign. They'll have to replace it now if they're going to replace it. I'm also writing to Tesco head office about the lack of Welsh in my workplace.

Posted by: Siarls 20-Sep-2005, 03:49 PM
My stickers have been sabotaged and one of the Welsh signs was put back... upside down. I am enraged and do not know what to do. I have half a mind to take down some black paint and just completely destroy the English.

Posted by: gwenynen 20-Sep-2005, 07:49 PM
What about reporting it to whoever handles these cases before you decide to spray paint the sign? Cymuned? Cymdeithas yr Iaith?

Posted by: Siarls 21-Sep-2005, 08:33 AM
I think I shall speak to Cymdeithas. I am a member! Can you believe it, though? I'm in shock, honestly. I don't understand it - WE ARE IN WALES! If you don't like it, move to a completely Anglophone country. I thought I'd have support not opposition!

Posted by: gwenynen 21-Sep-2005, 12:40 PM
Indeed, Welsh speakers are minorities in their own country. But I'm encouraged the number is growing, far from becoming extinct as some people feared or hoped!

Posted by: austaff 21-Sep-2005, 08:33 PM
Siarls I am surprised that you have not had much support, I would have thought that the English signs would have been vandalised not the Welsh

More Welsh people should take your lead and show those English that want to change our Welsh heritage the way out of Wales

Posted by: Siarls 23-Sep-2005, 09:14 AM
The upside down Welsh has been removed, but English remains as does some nasty graffiti about the Welsh Language. I am in completely shock... this sign is about a mile from Carmarthenshire border - which is predominantly Welsh speaking. So not only is this sign in Wales, it's virtually in the Welsh-speaking heartlands!

It's almost like writing offensive graffiti about English in London. Not only is it England - it's the capital! And one of the largest English-speaking cities in the world!

Noone really seems to be helping. Cymdeithas and Bwrdd haven't replied and my friends are all outraged, but then not actually doing anything! My manager (who's Welsh=-speaking) exclaimed, "ignorant b******s". But that won't resolve the situation!

Posted by: gwenynen 23-Sep-2005, 11:20 AM
It'd be too irresponsible for me to encourage you to spray paint the sign though I understand your indignation, since you're the one to face the possible consequences. Keep contacting the Cymdeithas till they respond. Write to the local paper or BBC Wales.... Anything else?

Posted by: Antwn ap Ioan 24-Sep-2005, 11:53 AM
The most positive thing you can do is to use, support and promote the Welsh language yourself which you're already doing, not engage in pissing contests with others over who can most effectively vandalize street signage.

Welsh will be supported by those who love and embrace it anyway, not small minded people who resent the continuity of their own heritage. If you do battle with these people, then the first thing you've done is given their attitude the honor of an reaction. Considering what they're doing, it might not be worth that much credibility. Slogans in spraypaint are not only unconvincing and reactionary, they'll get you in legal trouble, and no one will be as affected by your martyrdom as you will should that happen.

Bottom line: you can't control the opinions or attitudes of others, you can only exemplify the best of your own and hope that the effect will be that others are inspired to do the same. I know you'll keep up the good work you're doing as a tutor and as a person who uses Welsh in his daily life and promotes and encourages the same. Well gadael graffiti i dwpsod.

Posted by: Siarls 24-Sep-2005, 04:01 PM
I have left it be now. I left it to the hands of the Welsh Language and Local Council authorities.
I suppose I was angry because an attack on Welsh is a complete attack on me and my life: I'm Welsh, I speak it, I study, I tutor it, I aim to have a career in it - hopefully postgraduate study in it. They may think that Welsh is an outdated useless language, but my existence depends on it!

Posted by: austaff 24-Sep-2005, 08:22 PM
Siarls are you going to the Welsh Lnguage rally on 1 October at Cathays in Cardiff?
saw this post on another board

For anyone in Wales wanting to support the language, and whether you speak it or not, the language of heaven deserves all our support after it was almost killed off. Here is a rally in Cardiff in support of a new act.

CYMDEITHAS YR IAITH GYMRAEG - PRESS RELEASE - 22/09/05
SIX MEMBERS OF CYMDEITHAS YR IAITH ARRESTED IN CATHAYS PARK

Three sisters are amongst the six members of Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg arrested this morning after painting slogans calling for a new Welsh Language Act on the walls of the Welsh Assembly Governments? headquarters in Cathays Park, Cardiff. Angharad Clwyd from Pont-Tweli, and Siriol Teifi and Gwenno Teifi from Llanfihangel-ar-Arth, along with students Menna Machraeth from Llanddarog, Lois Barrar from Merthyr and Lowri Larsen from Caernarfon are in Fairwater police station at the moment.

Four slogans were painted, including ?Deddf Iaith ? Dyma?r Cyfle? (Language Act ? the last chance) on the walls of the building following a press conference in which the names of hundreds of prominent Welsh people who have stated their public support for a new Welsh Language Act.

According to Cymdeithas yr Iaith, this marks the beginning of a series of direct actions which will take place in the coming weeks leading up to Christmas. This action marks a significant progression in the campaign for a new Welsh Language Act.

Catrin Dafydd, chair of the campaign for a new Welsh Language Act, said:

?This is the time to press for a new Welsh Language Act. The recent decision by the Welsh Assembly?s Government to abolish the Welsh Language Board means that some sort of Act will be created. The Welsh Assembly government aims to carry out an administrative tidying up exercise and nothing more. This is not good enough ? a comprehensive Language Act which establishes basic rights for Welsh speakers is essential.

Following Rhodri Morgan?s complete objection, Cymdeithas yr Iaith will be taking direct action over the coming weeks to ensure that this important matter is discussed.

We call upon the people of Wales to support this campaign by attending the National Rally to be held in Cardiff on the 1st of October. We also call upon the opposition parties in the Welsh Assembly to raise the issue as a matter of urgency.?

Today?s action was carried out during a press conference held this morning. During this press conference Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg announced the names of hundreds of prominent Welsh people who have publicly supported the call for a new Welsh Language Act.

Catrin Dafydd added,

?During this year?s National Eisteddfod, Rhodri Morgan claimed that only a handful o bullies supported the call for a New Welsh Language Act. The fact that so many prominent Welsh people have stated their support publicly shows that this is not true. There is now a general consensus that securing new legislation for the Welsh language is essential to ensure that the rights of Welsh speakers are protected over the coming decades.?

Background note:
The New Welsh Language Act National Rally will be held at 2 p.m, on Saturday the 1st of October at the National Assembly Governments? headquarters in Cathays Park, Cardiff. The speakers are Hywel Williams M.P., Hywel Teifi Edwards, Mererid Hopwood, and Steffan Cravos.

Posted by: Siarls 25-Sep-2005, 03:27 PM
I will try my best, but my friend is going to a funeral on 1st October and I am working her shift. 6.am. - 3p.m. I might try to go to Cardiff after my shift, but I won't get to Cardiff until at least 4p.m. I'll find out some more information and try to go and give you an update on how it all went!
Thank you for sharing that, Austaff. I'm so glad you did. I have a week to sort stuff out now!

Posted by: gwenynen 25-Sep-2005, 04:42 PM
Siarls, I'm glad you've decided to leave the matter to the authorities for now. Antwn, thanks for your wise comment. I agree with you completely. Austaff, thanks for the info about the rally. I've been thinking about joining the Cymdeithas lately even if there isn't much I can do being away from Wales. But hopefuly my membership and support will add a little bit to the cause.

I'm very interested in the future of the Welsh language as a learner, but maybe we should make a new thread specifically for this topic. Then Siarls can tell us about the rally if he can make it and we can continue discussing.

Posted by: austaff 25-Sep-2005, 07:11 PM
I was surprised to read that of the 3million people living in Wales only 18% or 500,000 actually spoke welsh I would have thought it was much higher Maybe Siarls this is why you are finding your welsh signs have been removed.

I know in the valley where I lived in Wales there is a big push to enrol the younger people in welsh schools so lets hope they take up the banner to keep the language alive.

I wonder world wide how many welsh speakers there would be? thumbs_up.gif

Posted by: Siarls 26-Sep-2005, 07:47 AM
Well, statistics vary and I read a recent report that said of people aged between 6 and 16, 45% speak Welsh, 90% of Gwynedd speaks Welsh, around 40% of the Lliw Valley speaks Welsh and that the overall national percentage is now approaching 25%. 18% may be the statistic of first language Welsh speakers because certainly a lot of people are learning. Despite statistics, pride of the Welsh Language is high, with something like 80% of Welsh people being proud of the language and wish they could speak it.

A guess of worldwide speakers of Welsh is up to a million, but it's difficult to ascertain an exact figure, but bearing in mind that people also speak Welsh in England along the border in towns like Oswestry (Croesoswallt in Welsh).

Welsh can also be studied at degree level in both Oxford and Harvard.

Promising facts.

Posted by: Antwn ap Ioan 26-Sep-2005, 01:19 PM
While the capability to speak Welsh is quantifiable, hence the statistics, its use is not so easy to determine. Siarls, what percentage of speakers do you think choose to use Welsh first in their daily lives in the Lliw valley?

By the way, here's an interesting site about minority languages throughout Europe, if you don't know about it already. They have regular articles about Welsh, but you'll also see the struggles and successes others in Europe have trying to keep their languages alive too.

http://www.eurolang.net

Cymraeg Gynta!

Posted by: austaff 26-Sep-2005, 09:24 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/southwest/yoursay/topics/flag.shtml

Have a look at this page about our Welsh Flag y Ddraig Goch long may she fly thumbs_up.gif

Posted by: Siarls 05-Oct-2005, 07:13 AM
The lower Lliw Valley uses Welsh less often than the upper Valley. However, the Lliw Valley is about to see the closure of its only Welsh Medium High School (Ysgol Gyfun Gwyr) where I went.
Lliw Valley students will now have to travel to Swansea's Ysgol Gyfun Bryntawe which was formerly the very rough Penlan Boy's High School. Despite the distance, Bryntawe has been renovated and is now the most advanced school in the area with its computers, facilities and sports equipment. Even a swimming pool and a gym. Gwyr may have been closer to home, but it had none of the facilities available to present Welsh medium students.

Today in a translation class (preparing to translate official documents into Welsh), we came across the feminine form of adjectives. They are so eloquent, but so neglected by native speakers. I feel though that as the gap between a literary and a spoken language widen, the existence of the language is jeopardised.
So, I'm going to start insisting on your use of the feminine forms, if that's ok with you all?

Posted by: Siarls 05-Oct-2005, 07:15 AM
Oh and I'm afraid I couldn't go to the rally this Saturday just gone. I had to cover my friend at work, while she went to her uncle's funeral, who died of cancer.

Posted by: gwenynen 05-Oct-2005, 08:41 AM
Like "stori fer" and "caseg gref"? Sure. You can set the standard in this forum! But you'll have to correct us (at least me) often as I've almost neglected feminine form of adjectives.

What about plural form of adjectives? I noted T. Llew wrote "pobl ifainc" in his letter.

Posted by: Antwn ap Ioan 05-Oct-2005, 01:45 PM
QUOTE (Siarls @ 05-Oct-2005, 08:13 AM)
I feel though that as the gap between a literary and a spoken language widen, the existence of the language is jeopardised.
So, I'm going to start insisting on your use of the feminine forms, if that's ok with you all?

I agree with Gwenynen, that's fine with me. Not to put you on the spot or anything, but yeah, it would help if you corrected us too, Siarls. Sometimes I think I'm doing something right but I may not be and I'm afraid of taking on bad habits. Also, I want to know not only my mistakes, but also how a true Welsh speaker would have written a passage.

I've been trying to learn more literary Welsh anyway, since here in the States I'm not going to be speaking it anytime soon, and all the Welsh I'm looking at is written and in a literary style for the most part. There's such beauty to a well written passage in literary Welsh and poetry of construction. So, you've got my vote.

Posted by: Antwn ap Ioan 05-Oct-2005, 02:29 PM
Speaking of literary Welsh, look what I found! A site for verb conjugations in Welsh -- the site is still under construction, so there may not always be the verb you're looking for, but its worth a go anyway.


http://www.verbix.com/languages/welsh.shtml

Posted by: Siarls 05-Oct-2005, 03:28 PM
Yes, this site is good. I often use it (seen as conjugated verbs are not something most natives are brought up with) and I think I've posted it somewhere in Celticradio.

I shall try and find a balance between literary and spoken Welsh, but sometimes the difference can be unintelligible! I want to avoid writing essays in here!!

Yes, plurals are important as well, Gwen. I shall try point those out as well. I am guilty of neglecting them as is every native speaker. I'm sure T Llew Jones does not write the way he speaks!

And I agree with you, Antwn. There is such soul, depth and beauty to literary Welsh. I much prefer it to the spoken, if I'm honest and would love to see a transition to literary Welsh as the spoken form.

Posted by: gwenynen 16-Oct-2005, 03:16 PM
Siarls taught us an useful expression a while ago: rhoi'r ffidil yn y to. I came across something really neat in "Gawn ni Stori?" by John Owen Huws. It's a collection of children's stories including myth and legend.

In "Taliesin," the witch Ceridwen changes herself into a hawk and chases poor boy Gwion who changed himself into a dove and tries to fly away from her. She says: Wel, mae o'n sydyn iawn, ond rof i mo'r ffidil yn y to chwaith.

I have an English version too, and it says: Hm! This boy may be fast, but he's not as fast as me! The point is lost in the translation, but for those who know Welsh, it's funny and clever!

Posted by: Siarls 19-Oct-2005, 06:16 AM
Gyda llaw Gwen, fi wedi bod yn gwneud ymchwil... a meddylais fy mod yn gywir...
Pan welais bod T Llew Jones wedi dweud "pobl ifainc", meddylais, "wel, fi'n gwybod bod pobl yn son am fwy nag un berson, ond enw cyffredin unigol yw hi. Falle mod i'n anghywir achos nad wyf yn gallu sylw ar iaith Llew Jones!"
Ond, roeddwn i'n gywir! Unigol yw pobl, ond lluosog yw ifainc, felly, ni ellir defnyddio ifainc er mwyn disgrifio'r bobl! Gwneud synnwyr?

By the way, Gwen. I am been doing research... and I thought I was right...
When I say that T Llew Jones said, "pobl ifainc", I thought, "well, I know that pobl is more than one person, but it's a singular collective noun. Maybe I'm wrong because I can't comment on LLew Jones' language".
But I was right afterall, pbl is singular and ifainc is plural, therefore you can't use ifainc to describe pobl.

Posted by: gwenynen 19-Oct-2005, 09:40 AM
Yes, I do see your point.

Posted by: gwenynen 22-Oct-2005, 08:49 AM
Shwmae Siarls. Wyt ti'n brysur y ddyddiau ma? I have a couple of questions.

1. Dw i'n ddysgwraig Cymraeg. - Should it be 'Gymraeg' since although 'Cymraeg' is a noun, it's modifying 'ddysgwraig' as an adjective? I write this sentense often so I want to be sure!

2. use of 'yno' and 'yna' - When I mean 'there' where I can't see, I understand you used 'yno'. ex: Hoffwn i fynd yno. What about when I'm writing to someone who is far away? ex: If I want to tell you "I want to go there (Wales)" which do I use?


Posted by: Siarls 24-Oct-2005, 10:50 AM
Helo Gwen. Shwmae.

1. You would probably use Gymraeg because although it is often elided, Welsh (language) in Welsh is in fact Y Gymraeg. However, Fi'n dysgu Cymraeg (or any form of fi'n, e.g. rwy'n dw i'n rwyf yn) is a far more common expression. Or in fact, Fi'n dysgu. It's such a common expression that Welsh-speakers automatically assume it's Welsh you're learning rather than say, Italian. This is of course an aspect of Socio-Linguistics and context.

You want to avoid saying "dw i'n ddysgwraig" because this sentence actually require pwyslais - emphasis. I'm a little unsure of how to go about in Standard Welsh because I'd simply avoid it in say an essay. However, colloquially, I would say "dysgwr Cymraeg fi", but you can see how horribly ungrammatic that is!!!! It'd be perfectly acceptable in my region, possibly "dysgwraig Cymraeg y dw i" would be more Standardised.

2. Stick with yno. Often in spoken Welsh, you can't quite hear a difference between yno or yna anyway!

Posted by: gwenynen 24-Oct-2005, 06:19 PM
Diolch Siarls. I wish I had asked you earlier. I've said "Dw i'n ddysgwraig Cymraeg" all over the place! Awful!

Posted by: Siarls 26-Oct-2005, 02:29 PM
No worries, people understand!

Posted by: gwenynen 02-Nov-2005, 09:06 AM
Siarls, what's "Hawddamor"? The definition is "welcome" and "greetings" but what does it mean when someone says this to you?

Posted by: Siarls 04-Nov-2005, 07:29 AM
Noone has ever said Hawddamor to me, I don't think. Where did you come across this word? It sounds like someone being very dramatic, hailing me or something!!!

Posted by: gwenynen 04-Nov-2005, 09:19 AM
It was at the end of a message I'd received where you'd usually write "Hwyl" and such. I can't ask the person what it was ment to be for a reason, but what you said has shed a light on the possible meaning. Wel, maybe someday I'll understand. smile.gif

Posted by: gwenynen 07-Nov-2005, 09:25 AM
Siarls, I have a question on pronunciation. This is very basic but I'm afraid I haven't got it straight all this time (another disadvantage of being a lone learner!)

When there's "w" in the middle of a word, does it always connect with the preceding letter? For example: dylanwad - is it pronounced "dylanw ad" or "dylan wad"

In the case of "athrawon" or "damwain" it almost sounds the same either way you say it, but it makes a big difference in "dylanwad."

Posted by: Siarls 07-Nov-2005, 12:37 PM
Ah my favourite topic, Gwen! Syllabic structure!

In the case of dylanwad, w acts as a semi-vowel because it precedes a vowel. This is a definitive rule in Welsh syllabic structure.

Therefore, dy.lan.wad (I have used full stops to show where syllables are divided).

Posted by: gwenynen 07-Nov-2005, 04:48 PM
O, what a simple rule (for a change!) Then athrawon and damwain will be athra.won and dam.wain then?

Posted by: Siarls 09-Nov-2005, 08:58 AM
Exactly. Once you get the hang of syllabic structure, I'm sure you'll find it more easy to speak Welsh and find the fluency of your speech flowing and improving.
You can split any Welsh word into this structure. And it makes it easier to use the Nasal Mutations:

fy nhad
fyn.had

yng Nghymru
yng.hymru

Posted by: gwenynen 09-Nov-2005, 09:12 AM
Yei, this is great! How easily I can say these words! Diolch Siarls. smile.gif

Posted by: Siarls 11-Nov-2005, 10:13 AM
Do you want me to write you up some exercises on syllabic structure so that you get the hang of it. Eventually, noticing where Welsh syllables begin and end will soon become second nature to you and your Welsh will flow more which is how Welsh is designed to be spoken!

The Welsh-English accent is based on the same syllabic structure and I have even have friends that have asked what a nelefant is (for example, I can think of any other words that start with a vowel)! Because although written an elefant, a Welsh speaker will alter the syllabic structure to a.ne.le.fant!!!!!

Posted by: Siarls 11-Nov-2005, 10:21 AM
Your all welcome to do these exercises and see how you sound when you read back your work to yourself. You can send them to me and I can mark them or comment on them. Anything you need...

(1) Mae Hen Wlad fy nhadau yn annwyl i mi

(2) Mae Casllwchwr yng ngogledd Abertawe er bod rhaid dilyn arwyddion am Orllewin Abertawe

(3) Rwy'n cofio am yr amser gadewais Nant-y-glo, I Sgotland ac Iwerddon i fyned ar fy nhro

See how you get on with these, mark out the syllables and read them aloud according to syllabic structure (not by word) and see how you sound!!!

Posted by: Antwn 11-Nov-2005, 11:30 AM
I'll try some and leave some for others -- capitalized syllables are where I'd accent them.

Mae Hen W.lad fyn.HAD.au yn.ANN.wyl i mi

Mae cas.LLWCH.wr yng.GOG.ledd a.ber.TA.we er bod rhaid DI.lyn ar.WYDD.yon am or.LLE.win a.ber.TA.we

Question Siarls, is the past tense ending "ais" pronounced like "ice" or "eyesh"? I know that i, u and e after s makes the s a sh sound, but how about before?


Posted by: gwenynen 11-Nov-2005, 03:41 PM
3) Rwy'n.co.fio.amy.ram.ser.ga.de.wais.Nant-y.-gloi.Sgot.lan.da.cI.wer.ddo.ni.fy.ne.dar.fyn.hro.

It does flow well but I'm afraid I don't know what I'm reading!

Posted by: gwenynen 11-Nov-2005, 10:40 PM
Look at this. It's a line from a song by Hergest (I got their CD yesterday.)

"A chri yr eryr ar Eryri draw"

Try reading it by the same method and you'll be saying "re ry ra re ry ri" it sounds so interesting.

Posted by: Siarls 14-Nov-2005, 02:46 PM
I did a lot of replying yesterday but for some reason, today, nothing's here! So I have to reply to everything again!!!

You noticed a sample of cynghanedd there, Gwen. Well done.

Have you tried saying this:

mae.he.nw.lad.fyn.ha.dau.y.nan.nwy.li.mi


Posted by: gwenynen 14-Nov-2005, 05:11 PM
Wow, this sounds quite new to me! Is it the way Hen Wlad is sang? All this time I've been pronouncing "hen.wlad" "yn.annwy.li.mi"!!! But yours sounds so much smoother to be sure!

Posted by: Antwn 15-Nov-2005, 10:31 AM
By the way Siarls, I wrote this letter to Lingo Newydd last week asking for subscription information. I haven't received a reply. Would you please tell me if you can understand it alright? Are there embarassing mistakes that might prevent them from taking my request seriously - or may want to send me publications only in English? I'm also posting this here because I thought your critique could also be a good learning experience for everyone.....if you wouldn't mind.

Annwyl Adran Danysgrifiad,

Os byddech chi'n mor garedig a^ rhoi wybod i mi y modd gorau fy mod yn gallu tanysgrifio i Lingo Newydd, byddwn dan ddyled i chi. Americanwr ydw i. Os ydy'r cylchgrawn ar gael yma, pa fath o daliad ydy'n derbyn ohona fi a beth ydy'r cyfeiriad cywir lle dylwn ei anfon? Allech chi gymryd siec mewn arian Americanaidd? Beth ydy'r pris am flwyddyn mewn doleri? A fyddech yn dweud wrtha fi os gwelwch yn dda faint mae'r Golwg yn costio'r blwyddyn hefyd? Mae'r ddau gylchgronau yn cael eu cyhoeddi yn Gymraeg, on'd ydyn?

Diolch o'r galon am eich cymorth. Dw i'n edrych ymlaen at glywed ohonoch yn fuan. Maddeuwch i mi pe byddwn i'n anfon y neges yma i'r adran anghywir. Weles y cyfeiriad hwn yn unig.

Yr eiddoch yn gywir --

Posted by: Siarls 17-Nov-2005, 06:40 AM
My critique has a couple of mistakes in it, I'm mortified you're posting it!!! If you're going to post it, can you change the pryd to pan, osgwela'n dda? Diolch!

Your letter is perfectly understandale and I would take it, not just seriously, but with immense pleasure at trans-Atlantic interest!
Maybe they're busy?

I'm glad you like my syllabic structure of Hen Wlad, it is in fact, after much research, what I have managed to ascertain as the correct way to sing Hen Wlad. Do you want to do the rest of Hen Wlad as practice? I'll help you... post your syllable breakdowns of the verses in here.

By the way, Antwn, and it's good advice for the rest of you... if you want to ask "Will you send me information?", it is better to say "A wnewch chi anfon gwybodaeth ataf?" because by using "A fyddwch...?", you are in fact asking, "Will you be sending information?"
Can you see that sublte difference?

By using "A wnewch...?" in questions, you also eradicate the need for "os gwelwch yn dda", because you have used a polite form at the beginning of the sentence and you have already been courteous.

Posted by: Siarls 17-Nov-2005, 06:44 AM
Generally, this syllable structure is how Welsh is spoken. Listen carefully.
It makes Welsh easier to speak as well, when you have sentences like

"Wyt ti wedi bwyta bara'r aderyn?"
wy.ti.we.di.bwy.ta.ba.ra.ra.de.ryn

Posted by: gwenynen 17-Nov-2005, 09:52 AM
"A wnewch" - Is it the proper way to say "A" at the top? All my textbooks start with "Wnewch".

Posted by: Antwn 17-Nov-2005, 10:33 AM
QUOTE (Siarls @ 17-Nov-2005, 07:40 AM)
My critique has a couple of mistakes in it, I'm mortified you're posting it!!! If you're going to post it, can you change the pryd to pan, osgwela'n dda? Diolch!


Thanks Siarls! I'm a little confused here. The only critique I'm referring to is a request for you to critique my letter to Lingo Newydd. I don't have anything else to post.

Thanks for the advice about "a wnewch chi anfon....." I hadn't thought to use gwneud.

Gwen, the use of "A wnewch" with the A at the beginning shows that its a question as opposed to a statement. I don't know if its absolutely necessary, but I think its a good idea since at the very outset of the sentence the reader knows you're asking something. Please correct me if I'm wrong Siarls. I was also writing a formal letter so I wanted to use a more formal style.

You were right Siarls, maybe they were busy. They did send me a reply yesterday. I'll probably subscribe to Lingo Newydd, but they didn't answer if Golwg is in Welsh or not. Do you get Lingo Newydd Gwen? If so, how do you like it?

Posted by: Siarls 18-Nov-2005, 06:47 AM
A wnewch is more formal and literary.
The "A" is elided in spoken Welsh, but the mutation will remain.

Generally, all questions must begin with "A" in literary Welsh:

1. A aeth i Abertawe?
2. Pryd a welaist y ffilm?

Posted by: gwenynen 18-Nov-2005, 09:08 AM
Diolch Antwn, Siarls for your replies to my question.

The rest of Hen Wlad:
Gw.lad.beir.dda.chan.to.rio.nen.wo.gio.no.fri.
Ei.gw.rol.ry.fel.wyr.gw.lad.gar.wyr.tra.mad.dros.ry.ddid.co.lla.san.teu.gwaed.
Glad.glad.plei.dio.lwy.fi'm.gwlad.
tra.mo.ryn.fur.
i'r.fur.hoff.bau.
O.by.dde.di'r.he.niaith.bar.hau!

Posted by: gwenynen 18-Nov-2005, 09:14 AM
I have other questions.

1. Do you pronounce "h" in "cymhleth"?
2. How can I learn to pronounce "wrth gwrs"? For me, this is one of the hardest Welsh words to
say.

Posted by: gwenynen 18-Nov-2005, 10:30 AM
Antwn, I believe Golwg is a weekly Welsh magazine. I do like Lingo Newydd. (They printed my letter and e-mail.) It's oriented more toward post beginners so it may be too easy for you. From what I hear Golwg is more your level. Of course it's more costly to subscribe just because there are many issues in a year.

Posted by: Siarls 19-Nov-2005, 07:56 AM
The h in cymhleth causes a plosion of air as you go to the next syllable, it's difficult to describe, but it's not quite LL, but almost. When you say cym.leth, try to imitate the plosion of air that occurs when English-speakers (hopefully American as well as British otherwise this might not make sense) say the word pan.
Have you been able to get the RH sound, like in rhoi? It's similar to this plosion.

Wrth gwrs. How are you with the trilling R that we have in Welsh and that exists in Spanish and Italian?
The trilling R in Wrth gwrs is not as defined as words like yr aderyn, so it's not particularly important you get the R exact.
Maybe you could try practising WR GWR for a while and add the TH and S when you feel more confident.

Your syllabic break down is good, but remember that I is often like W. Before another vowel, it acts a semi-vowel. Therefore, iaith is yaith. So, Hen Iaith will remain as hen.iaith.
I'm intrigued by where you have put your Rs. Like you say o.fri which is good. My research at the momen is if R acts as a syllabic definer. Does a Welsh person say o.fri or of.ri?

Actually, there are many Golwg magazines in one of my Welsh classrooms on the shelf, so it must be highly esteemed.

Posted by: Antwn 19-Nov-2005, 09:49 AM
Yeah, it seems Golwg is published in Welsh too. Finances being what they are right now, I'll just subscribe to Lingo....maybe Golwg later. I just need to expose myself to Welsh daily, otherwise I forget too much. I'll look at a word I used myself maybe two weeks before and think, "what does that word mean again?"

Thanks for the pronunciation tips about cymhleth Siarls. I had wondered how to pronounce that word too.

You know, I think its impossible for me to roll my r's .....I just can't do it unless I do so in the back of the mouth, but then it sounds so gutteral. I can't roll them the way Spanish and Italian speakers do, or Welsh speakers for that matter. I keep trying though.

Posted by: gwenynen 19-Nov-2005, 11:40 AM
Diolch Siarls for your advice. I can't roll my r's well either, but I think I can do a little better than before. So that's encouraging. My rh's are just as good as my r's. I understand what you mean by a plosion of air produced in 'pan' but I don't know how 'h' in 'cymhleth' is pronounced the same way. I guess I just have to say 'cymleth' at this moment till I get someone coach me in person.

I'll keep at WR and GWR. smile.gif You may think they're such simple words to say, but for me they are so hard that I'm fascinated when Welsh speakers say them so effortlessly!

I was pronouncing iaith as 'iaith', not 'yaith'. Thanks for telling me.

Posted by: Siarls 20-Nov-2005, 11:12 AM
I before another vowel will always act like a Y! Unless it's ï.

So, tafodiaith is ta.fod.yaith

Whereas pensaernïaeth is pen.saer.ni.aith

Make sense?!

Posted by: gwenynen 20-Nov-2005, 02:07 PM
Yes, it does. Diolch. I'll try to remember.

Posted by: Siarls 21-Nov-2005, 04:39 PM
How do you find Welsh to speak so far, then? I listen to learners and 2nd language speakers all the time and am always so delighted to hear them. They are a regular feature on the news! I love it when people make an effort to speak in Welsh for the Welsh news rather than just speak English.

Posted by: gwenynen 21-Nov-2005, 08:34 PM
I haven't found the best method to practice speaking. I try reading out loud or say my thoughts in Welsh but it's hard to make myself do so without a good instruction.

Posted by: austaff 23-Nov-2005, 12:41 AM
Siarls

My nephew has asked that I write him some short stories. I have written them but I am unsure about the grammar and mutatations etc. Would you have time to look over them for me before I send them to him. If you have the time can you e mail me at [email protected] and let me know your e mail address so I can send them to you

cheers and thanks

Posted by: Siarls 23-Nov-2005, 09:36 AM
If any of you have MSN messenger or have figured out how to use it (!!!) then you can practice with me there. It may not be speech but it's off-the-cuff so will give you some practise for quick thinking and responding in Welsh!
I can also give you advice on how to say certain things you're not sure about at the time because it'd be quicker than posting.

[email protected]
is my MSN. I'm afraid I do not have AOL and my Yahoo is [email protected] but I don't have Yahoo on my computer so unless any of you have it, I shan't bother downloading it.

Posted by: Siarls 24-Nov-2005, 04:08 PM
I'm sure you know, Gwen, but the object of concise verb clause has a soft mutation.

Gwelais gath yn y ty.
I saw a cat in the house.

Therefore
Cafodd y Pererinion gynhaeaf da.

What do you know not how to say??
[quote=](Wn i ddim sut ydych chi'n ei ddweud!) Yn ddiweddar, mae hi wedi bod dydd gwledd ar gafer teuluoedd a chyfeillion.[/quote]

Other than that, your Welsh is definitely improving. This mutation of the the objects of concise verbs may be a bit tricky for you, but you'll get used to it.


Posted by: gwenynen 24-Nov-2005, 08:38 PM
Diolch Siarls for reminding me of the soft mutation. For some reason I thought y Pererinion ought to be mutated but since it has 'y', it didn't need to. Of course it's the subject, not the object.

I didn't know how to say, "president Lincoln proclaimed the day a national holiday in 1863." I feel like mine is a direct translation.

Posted by: Siarls 25-Nov-2005, 08:13 AM
I knew I should have looked up the English word. I'm not used to English grammatical terms!!!
Goddrych and gwrthrych are the Welsh terms, so...

"Mae wastad treiglad meddal ar wrthrych berf gryno (heb y fannod)"

Posted by: austaff 29-Nov-2005, 07:54 PM
Siartls I think some messages here are missing I thiunk i saw a poost from you about my story, to answer your question it is present ie I climbed, I walked etc hope this helps and look forward to hearing from you

hywl am y tro

Posted by: austaff 29-Nov-2005, 07:56 PM
sorry about the typos was rushing to go out

Posted by: gwenynen 30-Nov-2005, 08:32 AM
This site has been acting a little funny latetly. Sometimes I can't connect at all. It said yesterday the forum would be closed till the 30th, but I see now it's working!

Posted by: Antwn 04-Dec-2005, 11:53 AM
Siarls, may I ask a question about dod o hyd i and cael o hyd i meaning to find. I have been a slacker using the imported word ffeindio which I assume is pretty common. Its just easier, but not very Welshy....plus I want to understand how this works ---

Here's my question - what is the best way to use them with possessive pronouns?

to find him - dod o hyd iddo? dod o'i hyd?
to find his cat - dod o hyd iddo gath? dod o hyd i'w gath?
the company found a new employee - daeth o hyd i'r cwmni cyflogedig newydd?
in order to find your keys... - er mwyn dod o hyd i'y allwedd? I'm stumped on this
I found an apple on the floor - des i o hyd i afal dan y llawr?
Can you split the last one like this - des i i afal dan y llawr o hyd?

Can you please help?

Posted by: Siarls 08-Dec-2005, 07:55 AM
Hmm, I just use ffeindio as do my lecturers. I'm sure that it is

dod o hyd i

Therefore, dod o hyd iddi etc etc.

Any help? Sorry for my rushed reply! Tell me if you need more clarity.

Posted by: gwenynen 08-Dec-2005, 08:26 AM
I prefer to use 'dod o hyd i' too. I seem to see it just as much as 'ffeindio.' Of course, 'ffeindio' is a lot easier to say but 'dod o hyd' + conjugated i sounds so Welsh that I make myself use it to get used to it.

Posted by: Siarls 09-Dec-2005, 07:11 AM
You know what - I think you're right. I'm going to start pushing it on my friends. We were studying an emyn by Pantycelyn today and he had used words like "concweirio" (to conquer) and "ledio" (to lead). I was actually quite horrified.

Posted by: Antwn 09-Dec-2005, 12:22 PM
Yes Siarls, can you please tell me where I've got these right or wrong? No hurry, I know you're busy, but if I'm going to use the phrase I want to use it correctly. Thanks.



to find him - dod o hyd iddo? dod o'i hyd?
to find his cat - dod o hyd iddo gath? dod o hyd i'w gath?
the company found a new employee - daeth o hyd i'r cwmni cyflogedig newydd?
in order to find your keys... - er mwyn dod o hyd i'y allwedd? I'm stumped on this
I found an apple on the floor - des i o hyd i afal dan y llawr?
Can you split the last one like this - des i i afal dan y llawr o hyd?

Posted by: Siarls 12-Dec-2005, 09:04 AM
1. dod o hyd iddo
2. dod o hyd i'th gath
3. daeth y cwmni o hyd i gyflogai newydd
4. er mwyn dod o hyd i'w allweddi
5. deuthum [des i] o hyd i afal ar y llawr

Sorry for quick translations - hopping between lectures!
Does this help explain at all?

Maybe try comparing it to a verb with which you are very familiar: BOD

Mae'r cwmni yn fawr
Daw'r cwmni o hyd i

BOD object YN subject
DOD object O HYD I subject

Posted by: Antwn 13-Dec-2005, 08:36 AM
Thanks Siarls! That's a big help. Appreciate your time. Good luck with your exams!

Posted by: Siarls 19-Dec-2005, 08:39 AM
dw i ar: I am on
dw i yn: I am in
dw i'n: I am +verbnoun/adjective

Posted by: Antwn 20-Dec-2005, 02:43 PM
Gyda llaw, dylen ni feddwl am gredu rhywle ein bod yn defnyddio'r Gymraeg yn unig. Ar y bwrdd Conversational Gaelic, bob post yw'n ysgrifennu mewn un iaith. Defnydd hyn ein fforwm bydd yn ein helpu ddysgu ar frys ac yn well. Dylwn i ddweud hefyd bod yn golwg wrth fwy na 3,000 pobl yw'r bwrdd Conversational Gaelic. Nid oes gyda nhw 3,000 siaradwyr siwr o fod! Beth yw'r farniau o bawb?

Another point in English. I have studied on my own for about 3 years now, and the best way I have learned is by being challenged. When I joined message boards without translations, or with just vocab, I was forced to figure out what was said on my own and by asking grammar questions. It was in this way that I learned the quickest. I don't want to alienate anyone certainly, we have too few members as it is and I’m thrilled when another joins us, but its just too easy to read the English translations when they're provided and I don't think I would have progressed nearly as much if I hadn't joined some Welsh only boards. When I joined Cymraeg-L for example I couldn’t understand some posts at all, but I worked at it. I was excited too when others understood me enough to respond to my Welsh posts in Welsh. Others have said the same thing. One learner has said that the one thing which kept her going was she kept getting emails in Welsh from friends that she had to translate and figure out to understand. She learned a lot that way. What a great thing for her friends to have done for her!

That's why I wanted to have a Welsh board about a subject everyone likes like films. People would be curious enough about the subject and the posts to participate and make the effort to understand what was said. We might also want to express our thoughts about that subject enough to try and post in Welsh no matter how much we knew, since its desire which makes you want to transcend your limitations.

Remember, its not either/or. So if you’re new or worried, don’t be -- We'll still have the bilingual Beginners Welsh board. People can always use the Croeso I Gymru board to ask questions. Lets face it though, no language is learned without effort, and those Aha! moments when you understand something new are the best, and the simple fact is that if learners at all levels don't challenge themselves to some degree, they'll never progress as far as they could. Sometimes it’s the best thing you can do for yourself. So why not provide a board where that can happen?. Its not like newer folks won’t have any help. We have this forum for that. Right now, we just have the ‘Steddfod board for Welsh only. The more we use it the more we learn and retain it, and that’s important considering that almost every learner here is outside Wales with no other speaker to practice with. Waddya think gang?

Posted by: gwenynen 20-Dec-2005, 04:36 PM
Mae 'Intermediate Welsh' ac 'Advanced Welsh' da fi os ydyni eisiau postio yn y Gymraeg heb gyfieithiad. Ar y llaw arall, os bydd dy syniad yn dderbyniol i bawb, bydd e'n iawn i fi hefyd.

---There're Intermediate Welsh and Advanced Welsh if we want to post in Welsh without translation. On the other hand, if your idea is acceptable to everyone, it's fine with me too.

Posted by: Mihangel 20-Dec-2005, 06:55 PM
Rydw i dysgwyr newydd a dw i hefyd hoffi’r heriau pan ddysgu.
Dw i dysgu ers naw mis nawr.
Dw i’n cytuno â ‘na demtasiwn i darllen uniaith Saesneg, ond y gwirioneddol ‘na am ddisgyblaeth.

--I am a new learner and I too like the challenges when learning.
I have been learning for nine months now.
I agree there is a temptation to read the English but that is really about disipline.

Posted by: Antwn 21-Dec-2005, 10:21 AM
Dim problem. Gad inni gadw rhywbeth fel y mae.

No problem. Lets keep everything as it is.

Posted by: Mihangel 22-Dec-2005, 08:07 AM
Rydw i wedi newydd edrych "Narnia"; gwych stori a film.
---I have just watched Narnia; magnicent story and film.

Posted by: gwenynen 22-Dec-2005, 09:33 AM
Mae'n ardderchog, on'd ife? Wyt ti wedi darllen y nofelau? Maen nhw'n wych hefyd. Dw i'n darllen The Lion.. yn uchel i'r plant nawr. Dw i'n cael hwyl tu hwnt!

---It's excellent, isn't it? Have you read the novels? I'm reading The Lion.. to my children now. I'm enjoying it immensely!

Posted by: Mihangel 23-Dec-2005, 01:48 AM
Nac ydw. Does gynnoch i ddim darllen y llyfr cyn gwelais i’r film. Mae ‘n anghyffredin.
O’t i’n adfer darllen llawer i mhlant infanc a creu storïau i dweud nhw bob nos; dymunol iawn!
---No I have not read the book before I saw the film. This is unusual.
I used to read a lot to my young children and also create stories to tell them
every night; very enjoyable!

Posted by: Siarls 23-Dec-2005, 11:32 AM
Dw i'n hapus gyda beth ichi benderfynu - dim ond chi yw'n gwybod pa angen arnoch.

I'm happy with what you decide - only you know what you need.

Posted by: austaff 29-Dec-2005, 07:08 PM
Hi all

Just got back and looking through the postings and I must say I agree with Antwn that we should have a welsh only forum. Personally with the english written as well I tend to read the english without really trying to read the welsh as it is so easy to do.
Other forums in welsh only, makes one reach for the trusty dictionary and learn by doing so and it is pretty exciting when you finally know what was written and of course you can reply by asking questions if you are unsure of the grammar or words used. So personally I would like to see a welsh only forum as it would certainly help us new learners. thumbs_up.gif

Posted by: gwenynen 31-Dec-2005, 10:25 AM
Welcome back, Austaff. After thinking about Welsh-only threads, I do believe we ought to make use of the already existing Advanced/Intermediate Welsh threads if we want to post only in Welsh. And leave the other Welsh/Wales threads bilingual or in English since there are non-Welsh speakers in this forum who do read our threads, which is great by all means. If we make our threads only in Welsh, I'm afraid we'll be exclusive.

Posted by: Siarls 05-Jan-2006, 12:37 PM
I think that you should make more use of the Intermediate and Advanced threads.
However, we do not want to distance ourselves from the rest of Celtic Radio or deter prospective learners!

Posted by: Antwn 07-Jan-2006, 01:40 PM
Sounds good to me. We can also make use of the 'Steddfod Ar Lein thread too. Since its the time for resolutions, maybe our new year's res could be to use them more.

By the way Siarls, what did YOU think of Ms. Clasky, the Tea Leoni character on Spanglish? I'm curious to know. You can respond in Ffilmiau if you want. I went a little overboard in my response...sorry. Its been a while since I saw that movie, I really should rent it again. Hope all is well with everyone.

Posted by: Antwn 17-Jan-2006, 12:41 PM
By the way, check out this site if you haven't already. S4C online, good resource for those of us who can't get S4C in our countries.

http://www.wedi7.com/

Posted by: Mihangel 17-Jan-2006, 06:23 PM
Safle rhyngryd mawr Antwn; diolch!


----------------
Great internet site Antwn; Thank you!

Posted by: gwenynen 18-Jan-2006, 08:42 AM
Antwn, it look great but unfortunately it doesn't work for me as we don't have a broad band.

Posted by: Mihangel 18-Jan-2006, 07:00 PM
Gwenynen
Fyddwch chi ‘n cael “Broadband” yn y dyfodol?



-------------------
Will you get Broadband in the future?

Posted by: Siarls 20-Jan-2006, 02:59 PM
I've been intrigued by the dialect of my region since being in Ysgol Gyfun Gwyr so I'm going to give you examples of some words I come across that you will not in any learners books, dictionaries or unless you come to South West Wales, really!!!

ishte = eistedd
odi = ydy

There are plenty more which I shall list when I have done a bit more research.

Posted by: gwenynen 20-Jan-2006, 03:56 PM
Mae'n dibynnu, Michael. Basai hi'n wych cael defnyddio 'broadband' wrth gwrs, ond rhaid i mi feddwl am y gost.


---
It depends, Michael. It'd be great to get to use broadband of course, but I have to think of the cost.





Siarls, maybe you can publish a list of the dialect.

Posted by: Antwn 21-Jan-2006, 01:55 PM
Thanks Siarls, that's interesting. I look forward to more of those - good to know how things are actually pronounced. I also see efallai spelled "falle" pretty often, so I assume that's how its pronounced too. Texts books have an obligation to teach new learners the right way to pronounce things, but maybe they should also include an appendix which gives a list of words as they're actually pronounced. Of course for Welsh that might include several appendices, one for each dialect. Gareth King does a little of that in his books.

While we're on that subject, can you please tell me the correct pronunciation of these famous poets?

Taliesin
Aneirin

I'm thinking "tal.YE.shin" for the first one, but I don't know if its "an.EYE.rin" or "an.AY.rin" for the second. Can you help please?

Posted by: Antwn 21-Jan-2006, 02:02 PM
Gwen, do you have internet access through your cable system there? Yeah, it costs - but its very fast and you can watch "TV sites" like Wedi 7 and Newyddion through it. Or you can do like I do and use the library "puters".

Well I don't need to advise you, you seem like a sophisticated lady. Hope you're able to get something faster soon.

Posted by: gwenynen 21-Jan-2006, 02:31 PM
Antwn, we don't have a cable either because we don't watch TV except special news such as President's Inaugulation or tornado watch, etc (you can watch those without a cable.) And I'm quite modern technology illiterate. I manage to use the internet for learning Welsh. That's about it.

Posted by: Antwn 21-Jan-2006, 03:47 PM
Good for you Gwenynen!!! TV has gotten more and more insipid. I can't stand it anymore and watch very little - like you I just watch news. I do like Jay Leno's tonight show monologue though. If I had kids like you do, I'd make sure the idiot box was always off. Most of it is absolute crap!

Posted by: Siarls 21-Jan-2006, 05:07 PM
Taliesin is the name of the university arts centre. In our region anyway it's pronounced tal.YE.sin
Normally, our region does pronounce s like sh. Such as shwd. I was the only person in my literature class to pronounce Saunders Lewis' play Shiwan. But that was natural for me.
Aneirin is a.NAY.rin (as in it rhymes with bay, say and day).

Other words i remembered:
cwpla = cwblhau/gorffen
gweud = dweud
neud = gwneud
yn+treiglad meddal (e.g. yn Gaerdydd)
yn+treiglad meddal+i (e.g. yn fam i) = fy

We also elide the semi-vowel i. So words like nofio become nofo.

Posted by: Antwn 22-Jan-2006, 12:35 PM
Gwneud for dweud? That sounds as if it could get very confusing. I guess you determine the meaning by context.....it must help if you use wrth after it, that way you know if a person means dweud or gwneud.

Posted by: Siarls 22-Jan-2006, 12:46 PM
No, it's not gwneud, it's gweud. I'm sure it is confusing but as yet, the only problem I have come across is that it's dialectal and therefore not acceptable out of this region.
I am doing research into it, I think it might have something to do with the fact that D is dental, while W is labial and G is alveolar - so perhaps the loss of dental consonants amidst labial consonants is characteristic of the region. Nonetheless, both D and G remain voiced (as opposed to T and C which are unvoiced), showing that our region's dialect retains a degree of consistency in regards to the demands of the Standardised language.

Not really sure though, it needs more research!!!

Posted by: Siarls 22-Jan-2006, 12:48 PM
Nonetheless, people still say "a d'eud y gwir", which represents the possibility of this expression being a set phrase that could be seen as adjectival, rather than verbal??

Posted by: Antwn 22-Jan-2006, 01:01 PM
Oops, misread it. Okay that makes me feel a bit better. I'd heard of deud, dywed, wed etc being used for dweud....correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the original verb was dywed.

Is your region also the one that uses smo ? I always thought this was short for does dim o which got shortened to 'sdim o then to smo. Is that right?

Posted by: Siarls 22-Jan-2006, 02:50 PM
Dywed is the 3rd person singular, so it meas "he/she says". It is also the stem of the verb. Therefore, dywedodd etc. Just like sef- is the stem of sefyll.

My region does not say "smo". I am sure it means "I do not". E.g. "smo'n lico fe" "I don't like it".
We say "sai", e.g. "sai'n lico fe" "I don't like it".

According to my friend Rhys, as we were talking about it Friday evening in the gym actually, it doesn't have any sort of origin - it just appeared. As a linguist, I find that hard to believe, so I shall do a little more talking to friends and lecturers. Although Rhys does come from a very Welshy family, his uncle is the headmaster of Ysgol Gyfun Strade - a Welsh-medium school for 11-16 year olds and the rival school to the one in which I am working at the moment (Ysgol Gyfun Gŵyr).

Posted by: gwenynen 22-Jan-2006, 03:12 PM
Sorry to interrupt your train of subject, but Siarls, did you study Siwan? I remember you were talking about S Lewis before. Any thoughts on the work? When I first tried to read it as an absolute beginner (crazy, yes!), it was a complete mistery since I couldn't find most of the words in the dictionary (I didn't know mutated words and conjugated verbs/prepositions weren't listed!) Now I can understand some of it to my delight. Of course it's still beyond my level as a whole.

Posted by: Siarls 23-Jan-2006, 06:41 AM
We didn't actually study Siwan, we studied poems about Saunders Lewis and to understand the poems, we needed to study the context.

Posted by: gwenynen 04-Feb-2006, 09:24 AM
Mae cwestiwn da fi:

Dw i'n gweld dy fod di'n iawn.
Dw i'n gweld dy fod ti'n iawn.

I see both patterns used (di or ti after fod.) Is it just a matter of choice?

Posted by: Siarls 04-Feb-2006, 04:37 PM
dy fod di is correct, but it is a stylist choice! In speech it is unusual to hear dy fod di.
as you know, in speech we often say "fo ti" or "bo ti"

e.g.
Dw i'n gweld fo ti'n iawn
Dw i'n gweld bo ti'n iawn

Posted by: Siarls 08-Feb-2006, 05:29 AM
The "fo ti" is a result of the mutation "dy fod di". In Spoken Welsh, the mutations from the Literary language remain, e.g.

Literary: A wnewch ddod?
Spoken: Wnewch chi ddod?

Literary: Ni ddywedodd
Spoken: Ddwedodd e ddim

Literary: Yr wyf yn sicr fy mod yn gweithio heddiw
Spoken: Fi'n shwr mod i'n gweitho heddi

If you need more clarity, you know where to ask!!!!! smile.gif

Posted by: gwenynen 08-Feb-2006, 09:03 AM
As often happens, confusion seems to arise from difference between written and spoken language as much as from various dialects (so hard on distant learners!) O, wel, yet we must press on! Diolch am dy gymorth, Siarls. smile.gif

Posted by: Antwn 08-Feb-2006, 04:41 PM
Cytuno'n llwyr - daliwch ati Gwen.....and I know you will. One must do the best one can given the circumstances.

Diolch oddi wrtha fi hefyd Siarls

Posted by: Siarls 09-Feb-2006, 01:42 PM
If I were to suggest one for you to use, I think I'd go for the "dy fod yn" option because it gets you into the habit of good Welsh.

Posted by: gwenynen 18-Feb-2006, 02:53 PM
Diolch Siarls am dy gyngor. Mae cwestiynau da fi eto:

1. swta/cwta - they almost don't sound like Welsh! Are they a dialect? Are they interchangeable
meaning 'abrupt'? May learners safely use them?

2. I understand that (ei) after a vowel becomes ('i). In the following sentence, why (haeddu
ei) isn't written as (haeddu'i) while (difetha'i) is shortened to ('i)?
"Roedd hi'n haeddu ei difetha'i hun."

Posted by: Siarls 19-Feb-2006, 04:41 AM
1. Yes, learners may use them, but they have feminine forms: sota/cota

2. Well, as you know, in Welsh, U sounds like the English EE and is the same sound (in the South anyway) as the Welsh I. Therefore haeddu'i would be too difficult to say. That's why "to him/to her/to them" is "i'w" and not "i'i/i'u"

However, with verbs, the 'i is not obligatory to Standard Welsh, but rather it's a stylistic choice.

Posted by: gwenynen 19-Feb-2006, 09:22 PM
Diolch Siarls! smile.gif

Un cwestiwn arall: "I decided to go out." would be "Penderfynais i fynd allan." I think. How would you say "I decided not to go out."? "Penderfynais i beidio mynd allan."?

Posted by: Siarls 20-Feb-2006, 10:53 AM
Hmm good question.
That is a good translation actually, Gwen. Well done.

I think I'd say "penderfynais na fyddwn yn mynd mas" but yours is good... I like it. Technically, you should say beidio â mynd allan, but the way you said it is in fact how people would use it. Prepositions are badly used by natives.

In the South, we say mas, not allan. It is actually the word [i]maes[/b], but as you know, in the South, well Carmarthenshire anyway, people do not like AE, EI, OI sounds etc. That's why we say:

Cymrâg, not Cymraeg or
dwêd rather than dweud or
'rôdd instead of 'roedd

Posted by: gwenynen 24-Feb-2006, 05:13 PM
Diolch Siarls. I haven't read your post till now as I haven't been notified (this has happened a lot.) I should've checked here anyway. I should stick to the southern Welsh as that's what I've been learning. But since I don't have the "feel" of the language, I sometimes mix different dialects without realizing.

Posted by: Siarls 24-Feb-2006, 06:56 PM
And there's problem with that, really. Especially seen as you are a learner the other side of the Atlantic! It's just fantastic you're learning Welsh and the miss-match of dialects shouldn't confuse natives as it doesn't affect the Welsh itself. (Make sense? I have a Spanish friend Marcos who speaks American English with a slight American twang, so you can't figure out whether he's just a very laid-back American or a high-standard foreigner. What's more strange is that his father is English and his mother is Spanish. No American at all! The my Mexican friend Felipe actually has a Welsh twang when he speaks English and you'd never guess he's foreign).

Posted by: gwenynen 09-Mar-2006, 03:03 PM
You taught us how to say "It's a pity that you...." in Beginner'r Welsh today. How do you say "It's a shame.."? For example, "It's a shame that the media is often biased."?

Posted by: austaff 09-Mar-2006, 09:46 PM
I would write it thus Gwen so i would be interested to see how far wrong I am So over to you Siarls

drueni fod y cyfryngau sydd tueddol yn aml





Posted by: Siarls 10-Mar-2006, 08:50 AM
close, austaff. the "drueni" is good - very idiomatic.

drueni fod y cyfryngau'n dueddol yn aml.

there was no need for the sydd, you can have bod and sydd together. they mean the same thing, but sydd is emphatic (it emphasises the word that precedes it).

normally, you would need "dyna drueni" or "mae'n drueni", but austaff's exclusion of the word BUT inclusion of the mutation was very good.

Posted by: gwenynen 10-Mar-2006, 09:36 AM
Diolch i chi'ch dau. Then "dyna drueni" will cover both "pity" and "shame"?

Posted by: austaff 10-Mar-2006, 09:00 PM
welllll I must be getting better its finally sinking in to this old brain of mine lol laugh.gif

Posted by: Antwn 11-Mar-2006, 12:54 PM
And you're writing alot in just Welsh now too Austaff! Congrats! I think that's great. Starting out with the mutation of tueni was brilliant indeed. Way to go.

I know how you feel about getting older - I'm not the youngest rooster in the barn either. My secret is fairly simple, to keep learning keep caffeinated.

Austaff, you're doing Dyfal Donc right?

Posted by: gwenynen 11-Mar-2006, 03:52 PM
Wel, gallen ni ddechrau cymdeithas hen ddysgwyr! laugh.gif Ac eithrio Siarls, wrth gwrs. Ond ydyni'n awchus. Dyna'r beth pwysig! "Late but in Earnest"


---

We could start an old learners' society! Except Siarls, of course. But we're earger. That's the important thing! "Late but in Earnest"

Posted by: Siarls 11-Mar-2006, 07:10 PM
Yes, for me - pity and shame are the same thing. I found it a little difficult to work out your surprise, but I'm beginning to see the difference and am now considering the options in Welsh. However, in this case - most definitely the same thing for a Welsh ear.

I think Welsh learning is most common among adults in Wales too. Welsh is regarded as a bit unfashionable amongst the younger. Like my 15 year old brother who declared to the entire family the other day whilst Mae Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau was being sung on the television that he did not care about Wales at all and felt no connection to the Welsh Language or our national identity. He plays computer games with his friends and American children over the internet so is up to the earlier hours of the morning waiting for American children to get home from school and come online.

I feel that this "uncool" Welsh is thanks to archaic S4C, Radio Cymru and strict middle-aged female Welsh teachers!! My Welsh-speaking friends and I were coming up with ideas like a Welsh Top of the Pops music programme, but sometimes those in charge of Welsh media associate Welsh Language with the traditional cultural connections like the chapel and farming too much. Whereas, computers and pop music are the "in thing".

Posted by: gwenynen 11-Mar-2006, 09:25 PM
QUOTE (Siarls @ 11-Mar-2006, 08:10 PM)
Welsh is regarded as a bit unfashionable amongst the younger.

Dyna drueni yn wir!! I believe they ought to teach the Welsh children the Welsh history from the Wales's point of view. It's simply fascinating and never seizes to amaze me. Then you can't avoid becoming enthusiastic about the Welsh language.

Posted by: Antwn 12-Mar-2006, 11:47 AM
QUOTE (Siarls @ 11-Mar-2006, 08:10 PM)
I think Welsh learning is most common among adults in Wales too. Welsh is regarded as a bit unfashionable amongst the younger.

Isn't that usually the way it is with teenagers? What did I care about national traditions, history or ancestry at 15? I remember riding my bike around with friends and waiting eagerly for the next Beatles record to come out, but if I were that age now, I might just as easily be a videogame addict too. Technology is very seductive. I like to think I'd be a Welsh learning teenager though smile.gif

The upside is that young people will get older and their interests will also shift. If there's one thing constant its change, isn't that the old saying?

Yeah you're right Gwen - late but in earnest.

Posted by: austaff 12-Mar-2006, 08:10 PM
QUOTE (Antwn @ 11-Mar-2006, 01:54 PM)
Austaff, you're doing Dyfal Donc right?

Thanks Antwn like us all we are getting better each day Gwen Michael and I are all learning with Dyfal Donc I reckeo in 20 years we will have mastered the language.

My youngest son was 5 when we first came to Australia so you would think that he would lean towards Australia, but he is parochially welsh which I find amusing his older brother though sits on the fence.

I have found too that welsh people away from wales and living in other countries seem more enthusiastic and loyal about Wales and welshness than they would have been if the still lived in Wales

Posted by: gwenynen 13-Mar-2006, 10:11 AM
Yes, Austaff, people tend to take privileges for granted.

Posted by: Antwn 13-Mar-2006, 04:55 PM
True enough Gwen - along with the grass is always greener syndrome.

Yeah I hear ya Austaff.

Posted by: gwenynen 14-Mar-2006, 09:31 AM
Wel Antwn, mae glaswellt yn fwy gwyrdd dim ond yn Nghymru yn fy marn i. smile.gif

---
For me the grass is greener only in Wales.

Posted by: Antwn 14-Mar-2006, 04:52 PM
Ie! Yn ol yr hyn a welaf Gwen, dyna'n amlwg iawn amdanat ti!

Yes from what I can see Gwen, that's very obvious about you!

Posted by: gwenynen 20-Mar-2006, 01:21 PM
Ydy "siwr o fod" yn golygu "probably"? Roeddwn i wedi credu bod hwn yn golygu "to be sure".

Posted by: Siarls 21-Mar-2006, 05:06 AM
shwr o fod
siwr o fod
sicr o fod
mean "probably". I can see the confusion - we have come across it before. It is highly idiomatic. It can be awkward to use, as well... I would personally avoid using it amidst a sentence, keeping it to either the beginning or end of a sentence, e.g.

I will probably see you tomorrow
Shwr o fod, byddaf dy weld di yfory

Byddaf dy weld di yfory, shwr o fod.

Posted by: gwenynen 21-Mar-2006, 09:19 AM
Diolch Siarls. Dw i wedi gwneud camgymeriadau ofnadwy o'r blaen wrth credu bod "siwr o fod" yn golygu "to be sure" poster_oops.gif O wel, dw i'n gwybod nawr.

----
Thanks Siarls. I've made awful mistakes before, believeing "siwr o fod" meant "to be sure." Oh, well, I know now.

Posted by: Siarls 21-Mar-2006, 05:06 PM
No worries, it's close isn't it?! Bod yn shwr means "to be sure", so it's very similar and a very understandable mistake.

Posted by: gwenynen 24-Mar-2006, 03:59 PM
Des i o hyd i rywbeth da i ddysgwyr. Edrychwch:
"Rhaid ei fod wedi cysgu wedyn," - "Tân ar y Comin" gan T Llew Jones
"Rhaid ei bod wedi cysgu beth," - "Te yn y Grug" gan Kate Roberts

These are good examples for this form, "one must have done something." Interestingly, both authors said almost the same thing. And since T Llew is talking about a boy, and Robers about a girl, you can even see how 'bod' changes.

Many say reading books is an excellent way to learn another language (in addition to studying textbooks, of course) and I agree. It takes time but worth every minute. smile.gif

Posted by: gwenynen 29-Mar-2006, 09:06 AM
I've come across several times with "A chan fod...." Why does 'gan' takes an aspirate mutation? Or is it a special usage in more literal form?

Posted by: Siarls 29-Mar-2006, 03:29 PM
can you show me a sentence with it in, please gwen?

Posted by: gwenynen 03-Apr-2006, 07:39 AM
I didn't read your post till now, Siarls. Here's one example:
" ..., a chan fod y tywydd yn cynhesu, mi fydd y llethrau sgio yn slwtch erbyn amser cinio." - from a post at maes-e.
T Llew uses this expression sometimes but I can't locate the very sentences unless I read Tân ar y Comin all over again.

Posted by: gwenynen 03-Apr-2006, 12:56 PM
I came across another example of "gyda" with aspirate mutation in T Llew's book:
"Dewch i'r tyˆ." A chyda'r gair cychwynnodd Tom Ifans i fyny'r clos serth.

Posted by: Siarls 02-Jan-2007, 04:04 PM
I've seen "chyda" a few times now too. I reckon it must be a style.

I'm mainly on here, just to say that when you use the genidol (genitive?) in Welsh, there's no need for the definite article...

e.g.
The London Marathon - Marathon Llundain
the bedroom of my brother - ystafell wely fy mrawd
I went to the birthplace of Shakespeare - Es i i le a ganwyd Shakespeare.

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