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SCShamrock 
Posted: 12-Jun-2006, 03:31 AM
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Ok, for anyone who doesn't know, this thread is one that evolved from another discussion, and deservedly should have its own place.


I am interested in hearing anyone's take on American history, but more specifically, the founding of our nation. Sonee, if you could elaborate on your discoveries, I would be grateful. The gist of it is that (Puritans) settlers of this country actually did not come here seeking freedom from religious persecution, but rather left because they didn't think the church of England was pure enough. That is quite interesting. I am no history professor by any means, but this would indeed counter all I have learned about this topic. Also, the Puritans were not the only Christians to settle here.

Although it be an arduous task, the reading of the Virginia Charters would indicate, at a minimum, the advancement of the Christian faith. This is what I have always understood the colonization to be about. Additionally, the Mayflower Compact further emphasizes this.

QUOTE
IN THE name of God, Amen.

We whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread sovereign Lord, King James, by the grace of God, of Great Britain, France and Ireland king, defender of the faith, etc., having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our king and country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the Northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politic, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions, and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the colony, unto which we promise all due submission and obedience.

In witness whereof we have hereunder subscribed our names at Cape-Cod the 11 of November, in the year of the reign of our sovereign lord, King James, of England, France, and Ireland the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth. Anno Domine 1620.



I think this is enough for a good opener. I'm sure, as always, this community is full of far more educated people than myself, so if my interpretation of this era in American history is wrong, I want to know. Any thoughts?


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Sonee 
Posted: 12-Jun-2006, 10:36 AM
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Okay, let me start with this: it is taken from John Winthrops sermon "A Model of Christian Charity" which he gave to the people aboard the Arbella in 1630 when they were making their first journey to America.

Fourthly, for the means whereby this must be effected. They are twofold, a conformity with the work and end we aim at. These we see are extraordinary, therefore we must not content ourselves with usual ordinary means. Whatsoever we did, or ought to have done, when we lived in England, the same must we do, and more also, where we go. That which the most in their churches maintain as truth in profession only, we must bring into familiar and constant practice; as in this duty of love, we must love brotherly without dissimulation, we must love one another with a pure heart fervently. We must bear one another’s burdens. We must not look only on our own things, but also on the things of our brethren.

Winthrop is saying, at least to me, that the Church of England "maintains as truth in profession only" the things that his group believes should be more more "familiar and constatnt practice". In other words the Church of England doesn't 'practice what it preaches."

Also from Winthrop's sermon:

Neither must we think that the Lord will bear with such failings at our hands as he doth from those among whom we have lived; and that for these three reasons:

First, in regard of the more near bond of marriage between Him and us, wherein He hath taken us to be His, after a most strict and peculiar manner, which will make Him the more jealous of our love and obedience. So He tells the people of Israel, you only have I known of all the families of the earth, therefore will I punish you for your transgressions.

The first sentance says that the Church of England has failed the Lord, therefore they aren't 'pure'. It also says that Winthrops group is more important to the Lord and therefore he WON'T put up with that kind of behavior from them. It sets up the idea that the Puritans were better than those that they were leaving, meaning the Church of England.

The second paragraph show how the Puritans were attempting to compare themselves to the people of Isreal and thereby establish their 'chosen' status. It was, again, their way of putting themselves above all others, specifically the Church of England from whom they were 'fleeing'.

Lastly, (for this post at least wink.gif ) we have this, again taken from Winthrops sermon:

Thus stands the cause between God and us. We are entered into covenant with Him for this work. We have taken out a commission. The Lord hath given us leave to draw our own articles. We have professed to enterprise these and those accounts, upon these and those ends. We have hereupon besought Him of favor and blessing. Now if the Lord shall please to hear us, and bring us in peace to the place we desire, then hath He ratified this covenant and sealed our commission, and will expect a strict performance of the articles contained in it; but if we shall neglect the observation of these articles which are the ends we have propounded, and, dissembling with our God, shall fall to embrace this present world and prosecute our carnal intentions, seeking great things for ourselves and our posterity, the Lord will surely break out in wrath against us, and be revenged of such a people, and make us know the price of the breach of such a covenant.

I take this paragraph to mean that if they, meaning the Puritans, should actually make it to the New World intact than that is a sign from God that he really DOES favor them and that they were right in their beliefs and everyone else is wrong. It's like looking at days like June 6, 2006 and saying that every bad thing that happened was because of the evil associated with the numbers 666.

Does any of this mean to say that the Puritan/Christians WEREN'T persecuted in England? Not at all. I'm sure that there were occasions where they were persecuted., but I don't believe that was their SOLE reason or even a large PART of the reason they left. I believe, and I think Winthrop begins to back me up, that they felt themselves special and better than those professing Christianity in England and they wanted to seperate themselves from the "not chosen".

I have more but I'll get to that later, got things to do here now.


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"If there's a book you really want to read, but it hasn't been written yet, then you must write it." ~Toni Morrison
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jumbleberry_pie 
Posted: 12-Jun-2006, 05:07 PM
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Thanks SC, for starting this discussion!

I'm not a historian either, although I love it, and minored in History in college. This may be a bit off topic, but has anyone else seen the PBS show Colonial House? It's one of my favorite documentary shows where volunteers try to live in a historically accurate representation of a past era.

I thought I'd bring it up b/c conflicting interpretations of why colonies were started and the religious inclinations of the settlers were a regular theme and caused quite a bit of dissent on the show. Some of the volunteers believed that the purpose of colonies was to create a religious utopia, and that colonies were created by peaceful devout Christians who were persecuted for their beliefs. It was fascinating to watch what happened when these volunteers were confronted with a "historically correct" colonial world (created by period experts and historians) where colonies were hierarchial, socially oppressive business ventures whose main goal was to make a profit for English investors at any cost.

If this is a time period that interests you, I really recommend watching this show!



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That cannot fly.
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SCShamrock 
Posted: 12-Jun-2006, 07:47 PM
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Sonee,

Thanks for the speedy reply. I would like to comment on the bulk of it, and if you will allow, try to demonstrate another interpretation of Winthrop's words.


QUOTE
Fourthly, for the means whereby this must be effected. They are twofold, a conformity with the work and end we aim at. These we see are extraordinary, therefore we must not content ourselves with usual ordinary means. Whatsoever we did, or ought to have done, when we lived in England, the same must we do, and more also, where we go. That which the most in their churches maintain as truth in profession only, we must bring into familiar and constant practice; as in this duty of love, we must love brotherly without dissimulation, we must love one another with a pure heart fervently. We must bear one another’s burdens. We must not look only on our own things, but also on the things of our brethren.

Winthrop is saying, at least to me, that the Church of England "maintains as truth in profession only" the things that his group believes should be more more "familiar and constatnt practice". In other words the Church of England doesn't 'practice what it preaches."


Winthrop is speaking of the duty of his congregation, and the prescribed method by which it is to be accomplished. In the fourth sentence for me the inference is not so much that the Church of England doesn't practice what they preach, but rather those to whom he and his followers were associated were lacking in their conviction and fervent pursuit of their cause. It appears to be an admonition of his own kind. The fact that he charges them to do all this tempered with love is purely indicative of the charge given to Christians of the early church. In other words, I'm seeing that Winthrop was challenging his congregation to follow the "great commission", and to do so with unwavering determination.

QUOTE
First, in regard of the more near bond of marriage between Him and us, wherein He hath taken us to be His, after a most strict and peculiar manner, which will make Him the more jealous of our love and obedience. So He tells the people of Israel, you only have I known of all the families of the earth, therefore will I punish you for your transgressions.

The first sentance says that the Church of England has failed the Lord, therefore they aren't 'pure'. It also says that Winthrops group is more important to the Lord and therefore he WON'T put up with that kind of behavior from them. It sets up the idea that the Puritans were better than those that they were leaving, meaning the Church of England.

The second paragraph show how the Puritans were attempting to compare themselves to the people of Isreal and thereby establish their 'chosen' status. It was, again, their way of putting themselves above all others, specifically the Church of England from whom they were 'fleeing'.


Again I disagree with your summation. The first thought I have when reading the first sentence is the biblical account of Jesus Christ, as the husband, and the Church, as his bride. The church, by the way, is not to be confused with any brick and mortar structure. The bible clearly explains there is only one church. You have to read the book to discover the true meaning of that claim. As for Wintrhop's group being more important to the Lord, I also disagree. Before Christ's death, there was no mediator between God and man. After Christ's death, the bible reads that the "veil of the temple was rent in two". The symbolism of this is that in the temple, there was a very thick curtain made of rope. There is some disagreement among bible scholars as to which of the veils--inner or outer--was torn. The vast majority, myself included, believe it was the inner veil; the veil that separated the Holy of Holies from the rest of the temple. Once a year, the high priest would enter the Holy of Holies, and take into it the prayers and offering of the people. The bible explains that no one except this priest was allowed to enter. Doing so would mean certain death. So the veil, being a symbol of the separation between God and man, was torn, giving meaning to Christ's words on the cross before he died....."it is finished." After Christ's death, there was no longer this division between God and man, and anyone could come to Him in prayer in the name of Jesus. Also, the bible explains that, after the death of Jesus, the Jew is one who is a Jew inwardly, not outwardly. In one explanation of this, the Jewish law of circumcision was brought up. It was explained that Christ was the "fulfillment of the Law", and circumcision, while certainly allowed, was no longer a requirement to please God because the people were then under grace.

So, the reason I preface this with such a verbose introduction is to give clarity to what Israel meant (or should have meant) to Winthrop. We believers are all equal in the eyes of God. Israel still holds its place, but we are all God's chosen people if we choose to be. I think Winthrop was again admonishing his congregation; warning of punishment if they fail to keep their faith.

Ok, that's how I see it. Your thoughts? biggrin.gif
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Sonee 
Posted: 13-Jun-2006, 10:47 AM
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I love history as well, which is why I’m majoring in History, I want to be an Historian when I grow up!!! (I also have a 2nd major in English with a writing emphasis so I’ll be able to write intelligently about my favorite subject when I’m done, but that’s beside the point!) I haven’t seen that show, jumbleberry. I thought it was just another stupid reality show and I wasn’t gonna waste my time, but maybe I’ll check it out!

As for the speedy reply, not a problem. As I’ve stated, history is one of my biggest passions so I will discuss it anywhere, anytime for as long as I have someone to discuss it with! (The eyes of my friends and family start to gloss over and drool starts dripping down their chins when I start speaking of anything even remotely historical, so I relish the opportunity to discuss this, and even dissect it, at length!! I thank you as well, for beginning this discussion! You have made my summer!)

This reply might be split up into a few posts, however, so please bear with me. During the day I have my children to take care of and housework to do so I don’t have as much time to devote to this as I do at night. I’ll respond to and write up what I can and then come back later and finish!

The reason that I said Winthrops group thought the C of E didn’t practice what they preached was because of this line: “That which the most in their churches maintain as truth in profession only,”

Truth in profession only says that they only SPEAK the truth they don’t actually LIVE it. I do agree with your assessment that he was saying that the C of E wasn’t as devout in their following of the Bible but I think it’s more then just Winthrop challenging his congregation. I think he was saying that his group needs to be “better” Christians than those they were leaving and that God would reward them for it as he DIDN’T reward the others. This is referenced here: “Neither must we think that the Lord will bear with such failings at our hands as he doth from those among whom we have lived;” In other words, (again, at least to me,) this says that God accepted the failings of the people among whom they lived but he wouldn’t accept the same failure from Winthrop’s group. They were better than those they lived with so God held them to a higher standard.

“You have to read the book to discover the true meaning of that claim.”

I have actually read the Bible through completely twice in my lifetime and I have also studied various individual books at length. I am familiar with its teachings and although I can no longer quote chapter and verse I do remember some of its passages such as; “Where two or more are gathered there I am in their midst”. Referencing the fact that if two or more people gather to study the Word of God and to worship Him than they constitute a church. I believe that is what you were getting at, right? (“The church, by the way, is not to be confused with any brick and mortar structure.”)

As to your story about Israel, I’m not really sure what you’re getting at. I think you are trying to make one sentence mean more than it does.

“So He tells the people of Israel, you only have I known of all the families of the earth, therefore will I punish you for your transgressions.”

I think it’s pretty straight forward. God told the people of Israel that out of all the people on the earth he only recognized THEM as being worthy so he would punish them for their transgressions and not others who were less and/or not worthy. Winthrop and his group compared themselves numerous times (I will find those references at some point!!) to the people of Israel in an attempt to “prove” or back up their notion that they are, indeed, God’s chosen. Whether this was for the benefit of the “uneducated masses” as it were, or just a way of justifying and ‘rationalizing’ their separatist ideas for their own continued motivation I can’t really say.

“we are all God's chosen people if we choose to be. I think Winthrop was again admonishing his congregation; warning of punishment if they fail to keep their faith.”

I can agree with this statement but I think it goes even deeper than that. I think that Winthrop was saying that the only people who CHOOSE to be worthy were his congregation and that made them better than everyone else and not subjected to the same ‘rule’ as others. That is why they needed to find a new, ‘unspoiled’ place to call their own, so they could enact and enforce their ‘stricter and more pure’ form of Biblical law. They did not believe in the separation of Church and State. To them, there WAS no state without the Church. I don’t have the time right now to find and post my references for this but I will work on it and post it at a later time (probably over night tonight!!)

So, those are my thoughts and now I’m anxiously awaiting your comments to them!!

P.S. I had my quotes in different colors when I originally typed this but I can't get the colors here, how do I get certain text to change color? Or can I even do that?
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stoirmeil 
Posted: 13-Jun-2006, 11:19 AM
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This is a wonderful discussion. Thank you both for the time and thought you are putting into it.

You should be able to get color by first highlighting the text as if you were going to bold it, for example, and then choosing and clicking on a color from the pull-down menu to the right of the size menu. smile.gif
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Sonee 
Posted: 13-Jun-2006, 11:24 AM
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Okay, lets try it...[COLOR=red]

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Sonee 
Posted: 13-Jun-2006, 11:26 AM
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That didn't work...what am I doing wrong? I highlighted the text and then chose red from the drop down menu but it didn't work? I think I'm just technologically inept!!

Thanks for the help though!!
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SCShamrock 
Posted: 14-Jun-2006, 01:43 PM
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Robert: “we are all God's chosen people if we choose to be. I think Winthrop was again admonishing his congregation; warning of punishment if they fail to keep their faith.”

QUOTE
As to your story about Israel, I’m not really sure what you’re getting at. I think you are trying to make one sentence mean more than it does.........

.............I can agree with this statement but I think it goes even deeper than that. I think that Winthrop was saying that the only people who CHOOSE to be worthy were his congregation and that made them better than everyone else and not subjected to the same ‘rule’ as others.


What I'm getting at is the same thing to which you agree, regardless of how much deeper we think it goes. Simply, if by faith we are under grace, and certainly in Winthrop's time that was the case, then there is no more holding to the law, there is the sense that one can be a Jew (Israel) inwardly, and that anyone who accepts that Christ fulfilled the law can be God's chosen people. So, if Winthrop believed his congregation had made this choice, does that necessarily mean he thought them to be better than anyone? No, that contradicts the tenets to which he adhered. He would have felt this choice required him to hold to a higher standard, and not lacking in commitment. This is the same reason many modern church goers leave their church after reaching a point of enlightenment, as they see the church as corrupt and/or the congregation as Jesus saw the scribes and Pharisees:

QUOTE
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and unrighteousness.

You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the platter, that its outside may become clean also.

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitened tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.


One footnote:

I didn't mean that I thought you hadn't read the bible. We have a lot of readers here. So if anyone has questions about anything I write in reference to biblical stories or text, contact me here or by email or pm. I'll be more than happy to explain anything. Some of these concepts cannot be adequately addressed by simply citing chapter and verse, particularly for those who may not have much knowledge of the Christian bible.
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MacEoghainn 
Posted: 14-Jun-2006, 06:06 PM
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I'm not really sure where we're going with this so I created a little Quiz that might help to increase our understanding of "Puritanism".

This test is "open book", please reference sources for all your answers.

The results of this test will affect your final standing at the end of this course.

History 101 Pop Quiz, Puritanism, Fact or Fiction

1) Define "Puritan":

2)What Church did the Church of England replace?

3) What is the other major title of the person who is also the head of the Church of England?

4) Who was Jean Chauvin (a.k.a.: John Calvin) and how did he affect the Protestant Reformation?

5) Who was John Knox and what was his effect on Protestantism in Scotland?

6) How much effect did "Calvinism" have on Scottish and English Christianity, both within the Church of England and within the various "Puritan" religious groups (Presbyterians, Congregationalists, etc..)?

7) What was the Stuart (Royal Stewart) monarchs position on the "Divine Right of Kings"?

8) Who were the "Roundheads"?

9) Who was Oliver Cromwell? Was he a "Puritan"?

10) What was one of the major causes of the English Civil War(s) and subsequent execution of Charles I of England?

11) Who were the big losers with the restoration of the Stuart monarchy with Charles II?

12) Why did the Pilgrims have problems getting permission to leave England? Why did they need permission and who did they have to obtain it from?

13)Would Winthrop have defined himself as a "Puritan"?

14) Why did so many Americans (including "Puritan" groups), during the framing and ratification of the Constitution and "Bill of Rights", consider the 1st Amendment's prohibition on the establishment of a state church so critical?


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Sonee 
Posted: 14-Jun-2006, 08:34 PM
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1) Define "Puritan":

Puritanism was as much a way of life as it was a religion. There are 3 main beliefs that infuse Puritan ideals:

First was the idea of grace. They wanted to cleanse themselves of things like vanity, lust and eny so they could better love God and God's creation. At the same time they knew that a person couldn't just change his feelings as they chose. No amount of bible reading or praying could MAKE a person love what they didn't already, that it could only happen through the miracle of grace. (Grace being dfined as the ability to love truly).

Second, they believed that Christianity should return to the simple forms described in the New Testement and should get rid of any practices created after the time of Christ. The most obvious being the large ornate cathedrals that they abandoned for plain, wooden buildings with no more ornamentation than white paint.

Thirdly they believed that they were on a "devine mission" decreed by God to take "true Christianity" to America, a place specifically chosen by God himself to be an example to the rest of the world, a "city upon a hill"

Winthrop, Model of Christian Charity; "For we must consider that we shal be as a city upon a hill. The eyes of all people are upon us, so that if we shall deal falsely with our God in this work we have undertaken, and so cause him to withdraw his present help from us, we shall be made a story and a by- word through the world." This comes from Matthew 5:14-15 which reads "Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house." Clearly anyone NOT practicing their version of 'true Christianity' could never be blessed by grace and therefore would never be able to 'love truly' like they would.

I'll start with this and answer the rest periodically throught the night!!

P.S. I was only giving you the background of my knowledge, so you would know that I was familiar with the subject and would understand your refernces! biggrin.gif
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Sonee 
Posted: 14-Jun-2006, 10:13 PM
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Here is another testament to the fact that Puritans felt themselves above everyone else. It is taken from a sermon given by Johnathan Edward. He was a Congretional minister who followed the rigorous principles of the original Puritans and believed those principles were fading and should be rekindled. His sermon is entitled "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God"

"Thus all you that never passed under a great change of heart, by the mighty power of theSpirit of God upon your sould; all you that were never born again, and made new creatures, and raised from being dead in sin, to a state of new, and begore altogether unexperienced light and life, are in the hands of an angry God."

Again, we have reference to the afore mentioned idea of 'grace', that 'great change of heart'. This phrase seems indicative of not only Puritan belief but really all religions past AND present. If you don't believe exactly as 'they' do and practice the same way that 'they' do then you then you are somehow less than 'they' are. He goes on to say:

"However you may have reformed your life in many things, and may have had religious affections, and may keep up a form of religion in your families and closets, and in the house of God, it is nothing but his mere pleasure that keeps you from being this moment swallowed up in everlasting destruction."

To me this backs up the idea of his religion (Puritan) being the only 'right' one. Even if you have a religion and practice it and worship in the house of God, if it isn't the Puritan way than you are going to Hell. To drive this point home even further he says:

"There is no other reason to be given why you have not gone to hell, since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn sorship. Yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you do not this very moment drop down into hell."

I think that's pretty point blank. The people sit in that church and claim to worship God but they don't do it the way the Puritans did, or at least the original Puritans, so they should be condemned to hell. Isn't that the idea behind 'I'm better than you"?
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SCShamrock 
Posted: 15-Jun-2006, 02:42 AM
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Sonee,

I feel your reasoning is a bit askew due to the parenthetical definition you provide of "grace." It is a word used over and over in the bible, but as old saying goes I've heard.....a text without a context is a pretext for a prooftext. What is required to understand the application of many words translated from Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic is an exegetical study. The definition you provide is not entirely accurate, as it misses some very key elements of meaning. Again, it is context. So let's examine the word.

QUOTE (Merriam-Webster)

1 a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification b : a virtue coming from God c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace
2 a : APPROVAL, FAVOR b archaic : MERCY, PARDON c : a special favor : PRIVILEGE d : disposition to or an act or instance of kindness, courtesy, or clemency e : a temporary exemption : REPRIEVE
3 a : a charming or attractive trait or characteristic b : a pleasingly graceful appearance or effect : CHARM c : ease and suppleness of movement or bearing
4 -- used as a title of address or reference for a duke, a duchess, or an archbishop
5 : a short prayer at a meal asking a blessing or giving thanks
6 plural, capitalized : three sister goddesses in Greek mythology who are the givers of charm and beauty
7 : a musical trill, turn, or appoggiatura
8 a : sense of propriety or right b : the quality or state of being considerate or thoughtful


That is just our modern dictionary version. Next, from Strong's Concordance:

QUOTE

1 grace
that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech

2 good will, loving-kindness, favour
of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues

3 what is due to grace
the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
the token or proof of grace, benefit
a gift of grace
benefit, bounty

4 thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward


Applying your definition, and I don't know where that one comes from, you could draw some of the conclusions you have. However, you are speaking of Christian leaders, and as such, were most likely referring to the love bestowed them by God that was theirs by sanctification through the blood of Christ.

Now on to meatier matters. I quote your post:

QUOTE
"However you may have reformed your life in many things, and may have had religious affections, and may keep up a form of religion in your families and closets, and in the house of God, it is nothing but his mere pleasure that keeps you from being this moment swallowed up in everlasting destruction."

To me this backs up the idea of his religion (Puritan) being the only 'right' one. Even if you have a religion and practice it and worship in the house of God, if it isn't the Puritan way than you are going to Hell.


I see this as him saying regardless of what you do, you can never be good enough to avoid hell. I reference the bible for this reasoning:

QUOTE
Romans 3:19-31
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.


So he tells his congregation that yes, you may have changed your ways, gotten religious, pray with your family and go to church, but you are not spared from hell because of what you do, but rather by the grace of God. That's my interpretation. There is nothing in anything you have quoted so far that makes me think these people felt themselves better than anyone. In fact, I see humbleness and a strong sense of duty in their words. To me it is all too obvious that they were holding themselves to a high standard of accountability to obey the word of God.

QUOTE
"There is no other reason to be given why you have not gone to hell, since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn sorship. Yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you do not this very moment drop down into hell."


I suspect this is a continuation of the previous paragraph you quoted. But even if it is not, I agree with the idea. And that idea is that it doesn't matter how good you've been, or how you've worshiped, the only thing that keeps you out of hell is the love of God. For a person to think otherwise would make them prideful, which is contrary to biblical doctrine. So I see not 'better than you' reference here either.

But now I have to ask you....what do you think this means in the overall scheme of things--as they pertain to the colonization of this country anyway? Do you think either of our interpretations of "puritan" has any relevance to the country we live in today?
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SCShamrock 
Posted: 16-Jun-2006, 12:13 AM
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Sonee,

I'm glad you started answering Steve's "Puritan Quiz." You seem to have a lot of knowledge about the Puritans, but I would ask you to please cite your sources for those things which you assert as facts. I'm not asking for APA or MLA, just a simple mention of the author, book, or whatever you have. You have sparked my interest, and I just may want to read some of what you have been researching. Thanks! thumbs_up.gif
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Posted: 18-Jun-2006, 03:06 PM
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