State of scottish politics

[Aon_Daonna]

true, we have no starbucks here in Düsseldorf, although I like starbucks latte macchiato....

[Faileas]

Well - clans or clan societies; think its pretty much the same. True fact tho is that the old system was almost eradicated after Culloden. If i get it right the laird (not the Chief) was looking after the tenants living on his land and working it. True they had to provide military service and some tax but in return a true laird looked after the needs of his clan, inclusive medical treatment, food and a kind of social security in times of poverty and need. He would also help with funeral costs and wedding arrangements and so on. I don´t know how much of these old customs is still alive today, but one things for sure. The clan system on skye is still alive enough that you find only mainly four big family names lool (MacDonald, MacLeod, Martin and Nicholson hehe), and if ye look right ones related to the other so that in the end they are only one big family .......... loooooooooool

And I like it to see this old clan chief in his red and green tartan kilt with his feather bonnet when he goes shopping at the new big store in portree ....

Slainte

[Catriona]

No, clan societies and clans aren't the same thing at all  
Any group of people with a Scottish name in common, even if there is no proof that they were a highland clan or ever had a chief may band together and call themselves a Clan Society! It is a gathering of people who have a common interest in the history of their name....  and that is all.

All over Scotland in small places there are often only 3 or 4 common names, fishing villages on the East coast, such as Auchmithie are a case in point.  It is also common in the Borders, too.

The chiefs and chieftains (not all of them, but most of them) brought the end of the clan system upon themselves.  They took the land that the clan had held in common as though it was theirs to dispose of, at will.  They arranged to 'clear' their land to make way for sheep...  NOT ALL OF THEM, but a goodly proportion did this.

I think you'll find that some of the clan chiefs still in Scotland DO help with accommodation etc, if people work on their estate - but you don't have to be a clan chief to do this - any landowner, with vast estates, anywhere in the UK will have 'tied' houses for their staff.  However, if the job goes, so does your home

I value my history,but I bear no allegiance to any clan chief, although I am a member of clan Stewart of Appin by birth...  I certainly don't need to pay 'dues' to state this, my bloodlines do it for me  

[Faileas]

Well, a chatriona, what do i know me just silly foreigner daring to assume ur nationality. I was Scottísh in heart for long years, but certainly I lack some information. Sorry for hurting your pride. Can ye forgive me? Good to hear that this social supports still there. Yeah I know of the clearings ... sadly. well ye know it was the time and also fuelled by indecent high taxes on agriculture at the time. Things went over the edge on the clanchiefs side (it was not their sole fault)  ... but these days are past now and in the past they must remain. But ye are strong still and we are a nation again and stand ... Well yeah things are amiss true .. but as long as the hearts dont change society doesnt change. These things go together. And not many of the young Scots  appreciate whats happening  in their country and dont bother about politics, certainly not up here ... and if they do, they dont admit it sadly. Theres some politicians trying to change that, Peter Wisheart MP being one of them. I wish him luck ... and he has my full support in that.

Cùr Gaidhlig am Beo!

::iluvscotland

[Catriona]

That's the trouble, FloweroftheWest - you aren't Scottish!  It is very hard for foreigners to understand our ways - you may live amongst us - but it'll be at LEAST 20 years before you are accepted as a Scot   A friend's husband is Dutch, he's lived and worked in Edinburgh for 30 plus years - but he's still 'The Dutchman' to his neighbours  

I know my history very well.  My family are highlanders on both sides.  The clearances were a bad time in our history - and, in the main, the clan chiefs helped to bring about the death of the clan society they wished to still lead....   it started with the second Jacobite Rebellion which was a death knell to the clan system in Scotland.

And, quoting O flower of Scotland is all very well .... but the clearances caused a deep well of bitterness in most Scots, whether or not they were cleared and had to emigrate, or were cleared and had to leave the highlands for places like Glasgow......

As for saying the social supports are still there.... I am in favour of getting rid of tied houses altogether....  

[free2Bme]

Cousin Catriona,

I think that those of us whose families were forced to leave during the Clearances (as mine were) still felt a great deal of affection for their homeland. Although they lived and worked in the USA, their hearts and minds were still in Scotland. You must admit that it is a beautiful country (or it was until the Industrial Revolution). Many Scottish immigrants looked for and found places in the United States that closely resembled the homeland they left (Appalachian Mountians as one example).

Those of us who are the offspring of these people have instilled within us an innate longing for Scotland today. I think of it sort of like the instinct that Salmon have for swimming upstream to the exact same spot in the river where they were hatched.  Or the homing instinct of certain birds like Pigeons.

This aspect has not been lost on the Scottish Tourism Industry. They do a great deal of publising and romanticizing Scotland to promote tourism - and I can't blame them. It is this romantic notion of Scotland that sells the airplane tickets for British Airways, fills the hotel rooms, and lines the pockets of the restauranteers, and the local attractions.

Having said all of this, doing away with the Clan Chiefs and all would possibly be detrimental to the tourism industry, don't you think?  

[Catriona]

Janet you have just proved that you know little about present day Scotland  

The industrial revolution made for certain 'blights' on the landscape - but Scotland is still a vastly underpopulated country - with great areas totally empty of humanity - the clearances 'helped' to make it so - although it was never heavily populated, even before then.

The impact of tourism on Scotland cannot be denied - and indeed, my home town would certainly find it difficult to continue as it does without the tourist dollars/yen/lira/mark etc....   However, we are a living, evolving culture - not static - we are not stuck in the past......    we love our history, but living in the here and now is what is important to most Scots.  Edinburgh is the centre of commerce and not industry for Scotland...   large banks and insurance companies and stock market businesses are all based in Edinburgh.  It is a centre of learning (3 universities) and research, as well as a hive of the printing industry.  So, although tourism IS very important - it is not the be all and end all of our existence.  However, that it certainly not true for lots of other Scottish towns and villages which rely, almost totally on tourism.

I love my country and its history.  What I cannot STAND is the Brigadoonery aspects of how most descendants of Scots overseas seem to latch onto,   as if that is the 'real' Scotland.   Adopt our history, which by the way, is only 'yours' up to the time your family left    - but allow us to decide which bits of our history we wish to honour and which to dispose of....

By the way, who said anything about doing away with the clan chiefs?  I certainly didn't     What I object to is the 'tied cottage' system - not just used in Scotland, but all over the UK - and certainly not just by the few clan chiefs that are still in possession of lands in Scotland.  However, as many of them are the descendants emigrants, and who are now US/Canadian/Australian citizens - their fate means little to me or most Scots, I would wager  

Sorry for the lecture......   it just irritates me when people make statements about matters on which they may have only a superficial knowledge....    And Paul did say that as one of the few native Scots on here, he valued my opinion on matters Scots  

[Faileas]

Can i do something about me birthland? and my passport? what bloody counts is whats in the hearts. where i was born u either get arrested or are beaten up when u say ur proud to be of that nationality. well ... nationalism has taken a very wrong way where i come from ... even tho it was 70 years back. I am deeply ashamed of what happened and maybe thats one reason why i left my birthcountry. Maybe the Scots feel similar about the Clearances. Be that as it may ... I consider myself Scottish ... think what you like

[Catriona]

FloweroftheWest
Please don't swear at me....     I don't like it, and find it totally unnecessary.  I was not impolite to you.

You may consider yourself a Scot, but how CAN you be?
You admit you are a German and have lived in Scotland for only a little time.  You are not a Scot.  You are a German living in Scotland.  Surely you can see that?

I presume from what you write in the post here that you were originally from the area of Germany we used to call East Germany.....   and, if so, then I can appreciate that you come from a political system which was at best 'misguided'....  and, at worst, downright oppressive of its people.

[free2Bme]

Catriona - your debate as to who is Scottish and who is not reminds me of similar debates among Americans, who only think that true-blooded Americans are those who can trace their ancestry to the Pilgrims who landed at Plymouth Rock! News flash - those people weren't Americans either - the welcoming committee on shore are the only TRUE native Americans.

I am sorry if my perception of Scotland is slightly out of kilter. I base my sources of info on friends that I have who live in Inverness,Scotland - they dont have much good to say about the state of affairs where they live. Perhaps your status in life and economic situation is much different from theirs?

In my humble opinion, it would seem that Flower of the West has just as much right to speak about Scottish Politics as anyone else does - and probably more so because he actually lives there. We Americans take our Consitutional right to free speech seriously, and it upsets me when someone attempts to deny others their right to have an equal say.

I was only making an attempt to show how such Politics may have a possible effect on the Scottish Economy.

BTW - at what point does FOTW use curse words? I looked at his post and did not see a single one!

[Catriona]

Ahem.... he/she uses the word 'bloody' which is a curse word in my country     I can't speak for yours, of course.

Status in life?  Get real.....  I work for a living, don't you?  Don't your friends in Inverness?  I am totally lacking in class consciousness, which I THOUGHT most Americans prided themselves upon?  What?  Because I have a university education and a nice 'middle-class' lifestyle, this makes me less 'knowing' about Scotland than someone from Inverness?

I have no problems with Flowerofthe West talking about Scots politics - after all, he/she lives there now.... what I take issue with is his/her perception of Scottish history.   Who would know it best, a native or someone who has lived there for a short time?  

How can he./she call himself a Scot?  This is not an emigration like the Clearances to the USA or Canada..... this is someone who 'chooses' to live in my country....  It certainly doesn't make him/her a Scot... however, if he/she has children, born in Scotland and perhaps of a Scottish parent, then of COURSE, that offspring will be Scots.... I have no problems with that.  

And, if I have to remind you, some of us are actual natives, of only Scottish bloodlines.......  

How long is it since you discovered your 'Scots' bloodlines?  Five years, longer?  I never had to 'discover' mine, they are what I AM, what my parents WERE and so on through the generations back to antiquity.... Granted, we may have some Viking blood a long way back - even some Irish, but certainly not in recordable history  

[free2Bme]

"Bloody" is a curse word???????????? I never knew it - and here I have been listening to BBCAmerica programing these past few weeks and every other word is "bloody" this and "bloody" that! Thanks for setting my straight about Scottish Curse Words. I guess since I cant wash their mouths out with soap I shall have to scrub the television screen instead!  

A list of American Curse words can be found at George Carlin.com - but be prepared - these are what AMERICANS consider curse words and are not for the faint of heart!    

[Catriona]

'Bloody' is a contraction of the old English (language) curse 'God's Blood'.....     I prefer not to use any 'wee bit swearies' as we call them but, hey, each to his own  

A number of the Lallans sites where I am a member use swearies all the time, I'm known as the prudish wumman fae Edimbra.....     However, I don't ask them to stop and they don't expect me to start  

Look, I don't want to argue with you.  I don't even know you....  You have your views, I have mine.   I thought the views of a native Scot might be of interest, but I can see I was probably wrong on that score.

[free2Bme]

Cousin Catriona,

The way freedom of speech works in the USA (and on this board, too, I suppose) is this - EVERY PERSON has a right to express his or her own opinions, period. I will defend your right to have your say on this message board just has strongly and defensively as I would for any other!

Your views are VALUABLE to this message board, even on those rare occasions when I dont happen to agree with you. That is what makes our country great - debate away, but dont try to get the last word in by saying that another person has no right to speak!

In my own opinion, if Flower of the West is German, who cares? He has a right to express his opinions regarding Scottish Politics on this message board just as much as ANY OTHER PERSON - including yourself - simply because he is a member of the forum and he has something to say. Yes, we want to hear what someone who is experiencing it has to say, but know that this is considered a global forum, so we can and will share our ideas and opinions, too.

As far as cursing goes, this has been a very "clean board" and none of us go about trying to deliberately offend anyone. I always thought that "bloody" was one of those quirky little British expressions, I never knew it was considered a dirty word. Here in the South, we say "y'all" which is a dialectal expression that means "all of you" or "you all" - but there might be some parts of the world where it is considered vulgar. I know that in the USA, "shag" means a type of floor carpet, but in Britain it is a dirty word, so I try never to use that word, even though it isnt a bad word in the USA. So please, if we use offensive language, please feel free to say so, and we will try to avoid the use of that word (or at least I, myself, will - I can't rightly speak for the other members here).

[Cabbagehome]

Well goes to show you, we are never to old to learn. I've been letting my daughter use a cuss word. Here I thought it was, just English play.
As a kid, I learned every Spanish cuss word, usually trown at me, just because I was blond and blue eyed. I learned the American ones, in the 60's most from TV. Learned German ones, when hubby's grandfather moved in with us. Now I learn a nice safe word (I thought) is a cuss word.  Darn (though I'm afraid to knit a pair of socks, I plan on doing it, just keep putting it off)