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Camac
Posted: 16-Aug-2008, 05:27 PM
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My friend LOA sent me an article from Electric Scotland News Letter by Allister MacIntyre. In it he discusses the difference between Scotlands people and those Scots or their desendants throughout the world, concentrated mostly on those of us in North America and Australia. In my search for my lost family in Scotland I came across a Web site about we Scots and much to my amazment found out that in the three previously mentioned countries there are 25 MILLION of us. They are broken down thustly : US 12 MILLION, CAN.: 6 MILLION, AUS.: 5 MILLION

To put it midly "Thats a Hell of alot of Scots " This article goes on to discuss the facts (as he sees them) that we Scots of the Diaspora do more to keep our language (Gaelic), Culture, and Heritage alive and flourishing than do our Cousins in the Homeland. He also went on to say that in his many years of travel and research into the Scots that Canada is the NEW SCOTLAND. If this is the case first let me say as a Scots-Canadian I am happy but I am also shocked and saddened that it might be the truth. If it is, then "WOE UNTO ALBA".


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glaswegian 
Posted: 19-Aug-2008, 07:53 PM
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I have read this and I I would like to give an authentic view in how the scots feel as there are some inaccuracies in the post. I would like to say that I am very open to debate and I look forward to conversing with anyone about my statment.

1. There are not 25 million scots around the world. There are 5 and half million scots in scotland and about 2million that have migrated. That makes about 7 million scots around that world.

I think you were refering to descendants of scots in your post, those of whom are not scottish they are descended from the scots.

2. I have to clarify that the scots are not a race of people, the scots are racially white european, and they are seperated from the rest of the world through culture not blood.

having scottish parents or being born in scotland does not make you scottish. To be scottish you must have been raised in scotland at an age early enough to be assimilated, and have your character and personality changed and moulded by scotland. This includes being raised in - scottish culture, people, language, dialect, philosophy, attitudes, beliefs, sense of inward and outward perceptions, worldview, humour, kinship, politics, etc. etc.

I being born and raised in scotland, know the sample view of every scot I have grown up with and met throught my life. I knwo for a fact that alsmot everyone (if not everyone) I have met insists and agres that these values are what makes someone scottish. The fact is that a scot will only consider you a fellow scot if you were raised inscotland and have become a scot through real experience. This is regardless of race.

I have non white friends who regard themselves as scottish through and through, first and foremost. And they are scottish, as scottish as myself. I know that a lot of scots descendants have a hard time accepting this, but this is how the vast majority of scots feel. And unless you have lived in scotland for an extended period of time, you cannot know what it truely means to being scottish.

3. Culture is something that has constantly evolved in scotland, the culture that many non scots hold dear, in regard to scotland, is not an accurate perception of authentic culture in scotland. Culture cannot be read in a book. And culture that is supposedly handed down into a genearation living in another country will always be warped by that countries indigenous culture. I have travelled the world and I know from personal experiance that culture can only be lived and breathed where it is felt and lived in everyday.

I consider americans of scottish descent as my cousins, but I do not consider them scottish. I dont say that as being elitist or mean, it is a simple fact.
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Camac
Posted: 19-Aug-2008, 08:36 PM
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glaswegian;

As to the 25 million Scots you will note in the original post that referred to Scots and their descendants. AS to culture well up till the 60s' there was more Gaelic spoken in Cape Breton than in Scotland. It dropped for awhile but is on the rise again thanks to the only Gaelic speaking University in the World. Prince Edward Island has the largest Piping school in North America and the University of Guelph offers a Masters in Scottish Studies. I was born in Scotland and am of the Campbells and the oldest male of my branch carrying the name. I was adopted by a Mac Arthur when my Father died and my Mom remarried. I was rasied in a Scottish household, I ate , slept and drank Scottish culture . I young man am a Scot. Maybe just maybe when you get to my age you will realize what a Scot is . Its in the Blood and in the Soul. Its is returning to Scotland after 61 years and knowing you are Home.


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LadyOfAvalon 
Posted: 19-Aug-2008, 09:08 PM
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QUOTE (glaswegian @ 19-Aug-2008, 08:53 PM)
I have read this and I I would like to give an authentic view in how the scots feel as there are some inaccuracies in the post. I would like to say that I am very open to debate and I look forward to conversing with anyone about my statment.

1. There are not 25 million scots around the world. There are 5 and half million scots in scotland and about 2million that have migrated. That makes about 7 million scots around that world.

I think you were refering to descendants of scots in your post, those of whom are not scottish they are descended from the scots.

2. I have to clarify that the scots are not a race of people, the scots are racially white european, and they are seperated from the rest of the world through culture not blood.

having scottish parents or being born in scotland does not make you scottish. To be scottish you must have been raised in scotland at an age early enough to be assimilated, and have your character and personality changed and moulded by scotland. This includes being raised in - scottish culture, people, language, dialect, philosophy, attitudes, beliefs, sense of inward and outward perceptions, worldview, humour, kinship, politics, etc. etc.

I being born and raised in scotland, know the sample view of every scot I have grown up with and met throught my life. I knwo for a fact that alsmot everyone (if not everyone) I have met insists and agres that these values are what makes someone scottish. The fact is that a scot will only consider you a fellow scot if you were raised inscotland and have become a scot through real experience. This is regardless of race.

I have non white friends who regard themselves as scottish through and through, first and foremost. And they are scottish, as scottish as myself. I know that a lot of scots descendants have a hard time accepting this, but this is how the vast majority of scots feel. And unless you have lived in scotland for an extended period of time, you cannot know what it truely means to being scottish.

3. Culture is something that has constantly evolved in scotland, the culture that many non scots hold dear, in regard to scotland, is not an accurate perception of authentic culture in scotland. Culture cannot be read in a book. And culture that is supposedly handed down into a genearation living in another country will always be warped by that countries indigenous culture. I have travelled the world and I know from personal experiance that culture can only be lived and breathed where it is felt and lived in everyday.

I consider americans of scottish descent as my cousins, but I do not consider them scottish. I dont say that as being elitist or mean, it is a simple fact.

Hi glaswegian,

First and foremost let me welcome you to our community here at CR where I think one will find that it's the greatest place to be with a great diversity of people and of course of opinions.
Now this said, I would like also say that I respect your opinions but let me just point here that the editor of this article is a Scot through and through he was born in Scotland and has been in the States for a while and now in Canada for I think 2 years now.
So again this said, I think that if this editor spoke of his fellow scottishmen in regards of their culture and language;well I think it is because he knows for a fact that the culture of your beautiful country is diseapearring a little especially in the south,and by your name, I think that is where you are from. All who knows their history well knows that Glasgow and all the cities in the south have lost most of their culture from way back. It was debated in medieval times.It was said that the scots from the south weren't real scots because they assimilated the english ways very fast.No insult intended.
At 25 and you have travelled the world,well I congratulate you sincerely because for such a young age it is a unique experience,but even so, travelling doesn't mean that one knows all about what's going on in a foreign country either.
Have you ever been here in our beautiful country or in the states for that matter and met people originated from Scotland? If so, well then you would not say that you see the canadians or americans of scottish descent as cousins because they probably have more scottish roots then you can ever imagine.
I have been in Scotland myself and I must say that I do agree with the article and even the Scots themselves while travelling would say to us that it was a pity that a lot of young folks were simply not interested in learning of the "auld ways" and it's the same everywhere.But then all of a sudden someone wakes up and they see the importance of not loosing this rich culture and especially the language of Gaelic.

Thank you and again welcome to our great community and look forward to your future posts.

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MacFive 
Posted: 19-Aug-2008, 10:12 PM
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The Scots & Irish and the descendents of Scots & Irish have had a tremendeous impact on the world as we know it. Come here to America and Canada and attend a Highland Game and you will see hundreds if not thousands of people that enjoy the culture of Scotland and associate with Scotland's past. Take a look at an Irish Music Festival too and you will see it runs deep.

Dear Friend, be proud of your heritage and the fact that your country has had such a world wide impact. There is no need to make differences in the fact that you are not a true scot if you did not grow up and where raised in your beloved country.

Am I any less Scot because my ancestor was thrown out of the country because they wanted to make room for sheep; then be lied to and told he was going to North Carolina - then lose all of his worldly possession and become shipwrecked on Prince Edward Island in the year 1770. When I look at my ancestors and see MacDougals, MacGregors, Thayers and MacDonalds all inter-marrying with my surname of MacArthur. My Son James MacArthur is 14 years old and 5 foot 11 and looks like he just stepped off the boat from Scotland. His great grandfather was a Scotmans who immigrated in the early 20th century (on his mother's side). It runs deep in his blood and his parents.

As was echoed in this post, at some point those on Cape Breton had to re-teach the Scots their own culture because it had become forgotten.

So why do we carry on like this, why do we hold on to this image, this aberration of a land removed by time and the leagues of the sea? I'd have to put forward the reason is because our ancestors valued their culture so much as to pass it on through generation after generation. We are honoring those that have gone and in a mark of humanity, defining ourselves and that of our families.

What a wonderful thing to be able to claim a relationship with your country. I'd certainly welcome that and embrace those that feel a sense of kinship of the old ways with our common ancestors.
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Camac
Posted: 20-Aug-2008, 08:21 AM
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Macfive;

From another MacArthur "Good for you Lad ,Good for You.



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LadyOfAvalon 
Posted: 20-Aug-2008, 11:52 AM
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Macfive,

It is so true what you write about on the pride of one's heritage.
Being proud of it is a personal wealth in itself and heritage is what is being passed on from generation to generation.
No matter where one is born the roots are from somewhere to begin with and like I said in a previous posts, how wonderful it is for one to know where he or she is really from.

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glaswegian 
Posted: 21-Aug-2008, 11:58 AM
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"So again this said, I think that if this editor spoke of his fellow scottishmen in regards of their culture and language;well I think it is because he knows for a fact that the culture of your beautiful country is diseapearring a little especially in the south,and by your name, I think that is where you are from. All who knows their history well knows that Glasgow and all the cities in the south have lost most of their culture from way back"
Can I ask how you came up with this preposterous statement, scottish culture hasnt been disappearing.. scottish culture evolves and changes. If you are talking about bagpipes and rabbie burns maybe your right.

"It was debated in medieval times.It was said that the scots from the south weren't real scots because they assimilated the english ways very fast.No insult intended."

The highlanders in medievil times considered lowland scots sassenachs, the demographics of scotland is unrecognisable from medievil times, the industrial revolution shook up scotland, the vast majority of scots living in the lowlands have highland names because hundreds of thousands of highlanders moved to glasgow,

I dont know why you brought this up has it has no relevance to my previous postpost

"Have you ever been here in our beautiful country or in the states for that matter and met people originated from Scotland? If so, well then you would not say that you see the canadians or americans of scottish descent as cousins because they probably have more scottish roots then you can ever imagine."

No but I most of my friends and family have.my friends loved canada and america they were however pissed of at all the plastic scots. americans and canadians calling themselves scottish are actually the butt of jokes in scotland. Thye have even been taken the piss out off in scottish comedy sketch shows.


"Am I any less Scot because my ancestor was thrown out of the country because they wanted to make room for sheep; then be lied to and told he was going to North Carolina - then lose all of his worldly possession and become shipwrecked on Prince Edward Island in the year 1770"

You are not scottish, My fellow scots would not consider you scottish I know this for a fact.


I apolgise if I sound abrasive its not my intention at all. I along witht he vast majority of scots get pissed at people calling themslves scots when they are not. I am not attacking anyone interestd/proud of their heritage.

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LadyOfAvalon 
Posted: 21-Aug-2008, 12:18 PM
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QUOTE (glaswegian @ 21-Aug-2008, 12:58 PM)


"Have you ever been here in our beautiful country or in the states for that matter and met people originated from Scotland? If so, well then you would not say that you see the canadians or americans of scottish descent as cousins because they probably have more scottish roots then you can ever imagine."



No but I most of my friends and family have.my friends loved canada and america they were however pissed of at all the plastic scots. americans and canadians calling themselves scottish are actually the butt of jokes in scotland. Thye have even been taken the piss out off in scottish comedy sketch shows.


"Am I any less Scot because my ancestor was thrown out of the country because they wanted to make room for sheep; then be lied to and told he was going to North Carolina - then lose all of his worldly possession and become shipwrecked on Prince Edward Island in the year 1770"

You are not scottish, My fellow scots would not consider you scottish I know this for a fact.


I apolgise if I sound abrasive its not my intention at all. I along witht he vast majority of scots get pissed at people calling themslves scots when they are not. I am not attacking anyone interestd/proud of their heritage.

Sorry if I offended or "pissed" you as you mention in your post.
As for sounding abbrasive and attacking goes,again I'm sorry but you have alot to learn in regards of addressing others.

And again sorry that your friends and family that came in our country are pissed at us "plastics scots". How so then that like I said that the editor of the article in regards of you "genuine" scots and your culture are described like this from a "genuine" scots, born and raise there???

Maybe you could write to him and have him explain his article to you more clearly?

Your friend from Canada, LOA
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Camac
Posted: 21-Aug-2008, 12:30 PM
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glaswegian;

First off I will assume that your choice of names for the forum reflects where you are from and that by itself tell me alot. To say that a person like me is not a Scot is an insult not only to me but all those like me. I have 1800 years of Scottish blood flowing in my viens that same blood, the blood of my Father stains the soil of Italy and his body lies beneath the sands of North Africa and you dare to say that myself and the thousands like me are not Scots. My forefathers fought along side Wallace at Stirling and Falkirk, the stood with Bruce at Bannockburn and fought at Culloden so excuse me if I'm a little "PISSED OFF" with your attitude.


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LadyOfAvalon 
Posted: 21-Aug-2008, 12:42 PM
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QUOTE (Camac @ 21-Aug-2008, 01:30 PM)
glaswegian;

First off I will assume that your choice of names for the forum reflects where you are from and that by itself tell me alot. To say that a person like me is not a Scot is an insult not only to me but all those like me. I have 1800 years of Scottish blood flowing in my viens that same blood, the blood of my Father stains the soil of Italy and his body lies beneath the sands of North Africa and you dare to say that myself and the thousands like me are not Scots. My forefathers fought along side Wallace at Stirling and Falkirk, the stood with Bruce at Bannockburn and fought at Culloden so excuse me if I'm a little "PISSED OFF" with your attitude.


Camac.

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I'm curious about what the editor of the article in question would have to say about all these posts.... wink.gif

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glaswegian 
Posted: 21-Aug-2008, 01:05 PM
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My forefathers fought along side Wallace at Stirling and Falkirk, the stood with Bruce at Bannockburn and fought at Culloden

...... what does that have to do with anything ?

To say that a person like me is not a Scot is an insult not only to me but all those like me. I have 1800 years of Scottish blood flowing in my viens that same blood,

Your gushing over sentementality makes me cringe. Is scottish blood tartan coloured ?

How so then that like I said that the editor of the article in regards of you "genuine" scots and your culture are described like this from a "genuine" scots, born and raise there???

I am not really concerned about a single article or what the writer says. I know how the vast majority of scots of scots really feel. I have had this discussion in pubs plenty of times.
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Camac
Posted: 21-Aug-2008, 01:15 PM
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QUOTE (glaswegian @ 21-Aug-2008, 01:05 PM)
[i]My. I have had this discussion in pubs plenty of times.

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glaswegian 
Posted: 21-Aug-2008, 05:22 PM
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QUOTE (Camac @ 21-Aug-2008, 01:15 PM)
That says it all.

what do you mean ?
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LadyOfAvalon 
Posted: 21-Aug-2008, 05:47 PM
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QUOTE
glaswegian Posted on 21-Aug-2008, 06:22 PM
  QUOTE (Camac @ 21-Aug-2008, 01:15 PM)
That says it all. 


what do you mean ? 


Gentlemen if I may,

First this is a thread where members exchange and discuss on a subject, this is not for nitpicking. Exchanging ideas and opinions is supposed to be done with respect.
I am not acting as a moderator or anything like that because I'm not, it's just a friendly suggestion so that we do not derive from the subject at hand.

glaswegian if I may make a suggestion to you, I welcomed you in our community as a friend and the suggestion here is propose to you as one as well.
Here at CR we have a topic that's call "Introduction" why don't you introduce yourself so that other members will get to know you and welcome you properly.
Also, in the "Introduction" forum there is a pinned topic that the founder of this site propose to all new members to read and I suggest that you do so and it is the thread " The members guidelines" for there are certain rules to respect in regard of addressing others on the site.

Thank you kindly, LOA smile.gif
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