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| Posted by: peckery 17-Jan-2004, 10:38 AM |
| I guess I am like a lot of people who just don't know what the heck it is exactly. A religion, a set of values to go by? How did you discover it and why did you choose it as a path to follow. And why if you believe in it and participate in it, do most of you hide the fact that you are Pagans from non-Pagans. Thanks. I really want to understand since so many of you are Pagan. |
| Posted by: peckery 17-Jan-2004, 04:17 PM |
| Don't all jump in at once........................ |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 17-Jan-2004, 04:28 PM |
| go look at an ecyclopedia... Paganism: everything non-christian (and usually something poly-theistic is associated with it). There are different forms of it in modern society and you'd probably have to ask someone who knows more about that which one is which. |
| Posted by: peckery 18-Jan-2004, 10:35 AM |
Ok then, never mind  |
| Posted by: Jack 18-Jan-2004, 03:42 PM |
| I think that Pagans mostly love the earth, want to see a greener world, worship nature. they also belive that what you sow so shall you reap. of all things that Pagans belive in the most important is love. |
| Posted by: peckery 19-Jan-2004, 07:50 AM |
Thanks Jack  |
| Posted by: RavenWing 19-Jan-2004, 11:43 AM | ||
Some do worship nature, but it usually goes deeper than that. It is very hard to generalize pagan religions. They are very wide-ranging and go from one end of the spectrum to the other. Paganism is generally anything non Judeo-Chrisitan. So you can include followers of Asatru, Wicca, Druidism, Discordianism, Ancient Egyptian Religions, Native-American practices, Strega, Santeria, Shinto, and indigenous tribal practices to this definition. (this doesn't even come close to listing all the religions) Peckery - I would recommend http://www.beliefnet.com. You can look up some info on paganism. Also, there are a lot of people who don't visit during the weekend, so sometimes you have to wait until Monday to get an answer. |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 19-Jan-2004, 02:33 PM |
| mmh RW.. do you know about ancient egyptian religion? I mean, there's not an overly lot known.. there were local deities and such and how to worship and such... |
| Posted by: Raven 19-Jan-2004, 03:15 PM | ||
Just to be argumentative - I don't believe that the following non Judeo-Christian religeons Muslims, Mormons, Jehovas witness, Jews etc....fit the pagan catagory.  |
| Posted by: Shadows 19-Jan-2004, 03:43 PM |
| Ask any die hard "christian" ! Anyone not believing what they do is either "pagan" or a "heathen" ! God does not take sides... believe in the golden rule and you are saved! "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you! " |
| Posted by: barddas 19-Jan-2004, 04:05 PM | ||
The Egyptian Book of the Dead goes into the rituals/prep. for the journey to the underworld. Very interesting read. And, it is a glimpse to what they practiced, and believed. There is so much more that has been lost in those sands though......<sigh> |
| Posted by: Swanny 19-Jan-2004, 04:06 PM | ||
Just to be equally argumentative, Jehova's Witnesses are about as "Judeo-Christian as one can get, and it was the Jews that put the "Judeo" into the term. The Mormons also profess the belief that Jesus Christ was the literal son of God (Jehova). Thus from a Christian perspective, the Muslims are the only ones of the group that might be considered "pagan". On the other hand, their beliefs are also derived from Judaism, so maybe they can be described as Judeo-Christian as well???? One may be a "heathen" without being "pagan". I just happen to be the heathen pagan married to the JW (whew, you ought to be at my house when the discussions turn to religion and matters of spirit!!!   Swanny |
| Posted by: Shadows 19-Jan-2004, 04:13 PM |
| Swanny you and I have had this discussion before... gods help us all !!! LOL Run away, run away!!!! |
| Posted by: myriad 19-Jan-2004, 04:46 PM |
| Isn't paganism generally polytheistic? |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 19-Jan-2004, 05:02 PM |
| doesn't have to be, I think. btw: I've been reading in an online copy of the book of the dead, but I don't think that's all. I mean, what I mainly think is a wee bit "off" in so-called "neo-paganism" is that many sources are lost. let's take the example druidism: what we have a tacitus notes and caesar's bello gallico (and the different traditions and little things taken over into christianity). there is simply not enough known in my oppinion. I don't want to insult any of those that practice this but I think it's a wee bit pointless, however inventive those people may be. |
| Posted by: maisky 19-Jan-2004, 05:14 PM | ||
From the point of view of a Buddhist, Judaism, Christianity and the Muslim faiths are all basically the same monotheistic religion: The differences are rather minor.  |
| Posted by: barddas 19-Jan-2004, 05:40 PM |
| I have used the quote " A heathen yes, but not an unenlightened one" When I have been on the recieving end of a religious "debate" |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 19-Jan-2004, 05:43 PM |
| hehe.. I usually side with the receiving people of a religious debate.. If there is something I hate is the over-piousness of some "Christians" *retches* |
| Posted by: barddas 19-Jan-2004, 05:50 PM | ||
I totally understand what you are saying. Todays "Paganism" is only an interpritataion of that of old. I do not practice wicca. It isn't my thing. I tend to be more attuned to the Shammanic belief system.. which in some ways Druidism could fit into that. But I also tend to get my information from anthropolgy/archeology books more so than books specificly on "religion" They seem to be a little less biased about the religious practices. I guess what I am trying to say is I read alot and pick and choose alot |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 19-Jan-2004, 06:01 PM |
| hehe.. I understand that, I'm the picky type as well. I'm not religous but there are some things I have a very deep respect for. I have never and will never photograph in a church for example because I have respect for the beliefs of other people. I love thinking of the dead in old graveyards that maybe have been forgotten by now and many things more. I may criticise but I feel very deep seated respect for those that actually can believe in things. I sort of can't. I don't know why but I could not walk straight over a place that has a meaning for others. it just doesn't work with me. But most pagan practices seem to be very weird to me thinking of it. We don't know how it worked so it doesn't really make any sense for me to interpret it in any other way. I just grieve for the knowledge that has been lost. |
| Posted by: Jaxom 19-Jan-2004, 11:11 PM |
| Having had Jehovahs witnesses beliefs rammed down my neck by my mother for 20 years [ I've now escaped] they are most firmly followers of Jesus Christ and commemorate each year the anniversary of his death. which is held on the same date as the Jewish Passover. this is the only festival they celebrate at all. As they refuse to celebrate "Pagan festivals" they will not celebrate the following Christmas, Easter, New Year, Birthdays, Halloween, Bombfire night, [most Christian celebrations find their roots in Pagan beliefs] Hope I have not now started a fire.... sorry Jack |
| Posted by: maisky 20-Jan-2004, 07:42 AM | ||
Where did you get the self portrait for your avatar, my friend? |
| Posted by: maisky 20-Jan-2004, 07:43 AM | ||
Don't apologize for starting a fire here. Our fires are fun and friendly! GO Dude! |
| Posted by: RavenWing 20-Jan-2004, 08:05 AM | ||
In the grand scope of religions, these actually do fit in the Judeo-Chrisian category. |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 20-Jan-2004, 12:00 PM |
| you mean bonfire night as guy-fawkes night? That's not very pagan, it's commemorating the failed plot of said Guy Fawkes to blow up the English Parliament on the 5th november (can't remember the year...) |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 20-Jan-2004, 12:03 PM |
| btw: I got a friend who recently managed to get out of Jehova's Witnesses (his parents were both in that).. When we were younger I always enraged his parents by asking silly questions why they didn't have a telly and such |
| Posted by: RavenWing 20-Jan-2004, 12:13 PM | ||
I only know a small amount. I wish I knew more.  |
| Posted by: RavenWing 20-Jan-2004, 12:17 PM | ||
I know someone who is not JW, I think she belonmgs to a Christian Assembly church, anyway, we were talking about Christmas and she came up to us with a sneer on her face and said "you celebrate that pagan holiday". I laughed in her face. Celebrating something pagan is by no means something bad to me. I was angry about how she made my other co-workers feel. |
| Posted by: Swanny 20-Jan-2004, 12:34 PM | ||
Because paganism describes a wide range of beliefs and practices, it's not possible to answer the question directly. A few pagan belief systems are polytheistic, some are pantheistic and others are monotheistic. When one thinks on it, though, even some Christian belief systems could possibly be described as polythesitic. You have the trinity of Father, Son and Holy Ghost, plus a plethora of angels and demons and such. My personal feeling is that we probably all worship the same diety, but use different names and perceive it's manifestations in different ways. What one refers to as a "miracle" another may describe as a "blessing" while a third may call it "magik". It's sort of sad to think that many religious conflicts may be nothing more than a fight over symantics, eh? Swanny |
| Posted by: RavenWing 20-Jan-2004, 12:55 PM |
| Swanny - the voice of religious reason. |
| Posted by: Jaxom 20-Jan-2004, 07:49 PM |
| if ever a JW calls on your door. don't say you want to know more or you will never get rid of them. If you have any questions I may be able to help. I would say i am quite happy to be non religious in all ways |
| Posted by: Raven 21-Jan-2004, 10:38 AM | ||
Wrong Raven Wing!!! Main stream Christians don't want them either  They are heritics or cults depending on who you talk to in Judeo - Christianity and the JW's don't want to be placed in that catagory themselves since they believe that Jesus is in reality Michael the Archangel. I think the operative part of the phrase that separates this is Judeo. Judeo Christians believing that Jesus was/is the Messiah promised to the Jews. Anyone who believes that Jesus is anything else does not fit that catagory either.Being an avid student of camparitive religeons (meaning that I am very interested in know who believes what and why) I will argue fervently that there are more than 2 catagories for religeous beliefs. To be Judeo Christian you have to believe that Salvation comes from the God of the Jews in the form of Jesus Christ (or Messiah) and that Messiah has come. That is why it is called Judeo Christian as opposed to just Christian or as the JW's so quaintly put it "Christendom" If in a broader sense you are lumping together any one who uses the bible as some form of reference for their faith as Judeo Christian that is incorrect as the basic tenets of Judeo Christianity are not met by all groups that use the bible and this includes the Jews as they lack the Christianity end of it. I would go farther as to say that other religeons that do not use the Bible as some form of reference are not necesarily pagan either due to basic tenets of their faith. For example, I would not group a faith that believes in the horned god or multiple gods with a faith that believes in the god with in or the power of the human mind as being god like. I think what the Peckary was asking is what the pagans on this board believe. Not some text book definition. He is after all a curious little critter.  Peace Mikel |
| Posted by: Raven 21-Jan-2004, 10:45 AM | ||
further argument from my side Swanny Saying the Jews are Judeo Christian because they put the Judeo in is like saying someone is of Irish Scotish descent because they are either Irish or Scottish. Jehovah's witnesses do not even like the term Christian to be used in reference to them and consider it a derogatory term and use it as such. I didn't say that any of these groups should be considered pagan I just disagree that everyone who is not classified Judeo Christian would be considered a pagan. In fact I think that all of the catagories I mentioned with the exception of the Mormons would exclude themselves from both catagories. Another group that does not fit either is Agnostic. My point is that there are more than 2 catagorie that's all I think you are saying the same thing. You must just like to argue  I'm sure that makes religeous discusions in your house quite enjoyable Peace Mikel |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 21-Jan-2004, 11:43 AM | ||
I'm against that too but that's how it is called in western "civilisation"... "Pagan" always reminds me of Rousseau's theory of the "valiant wild" *sighs* |
| Posted by: Raven 21-Jan-2004, 11:49 AM | ||
You Catholics out there correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the Catholic church consider everyone who is not a catholic a heathen? Or is that just my Catholic friends pulling my leg quite successfully I might ad |
| Posted by: RavenWing 21-Jan-2004, 12:34 PM |
| Maybe instead of the term Judeo-Chrisitan I should use the term Abrahamic. |
| Posted by: RavenWing 21-Jan-2004, 12:35 PM | ||
In term of religious classification, these religions can and should be lumped together. One's own personal belief of what is and is not "the right way" should not be used to classify them in an objective manner. |
| Posted by: Raven 21-Jan-2004, 01:10 PM | ||
now you are going to think that I am difficult (grin) that's just because I am....difficult that is Abrahamic might be better expressed as Patriarchial (hope that's spelled right) I just don't think you can pick one group and accurately say everything else is pagan. I.E. Agnostic which is definitely neither unless you look at the websters definition. Websters \Pa"gan\ (p[=a]"gan), n. [L. paganus a countryman, peasant, villager, a pagan, fr. paganus of or pertaining to the country, rustic, also, pagan, fr. pagus a district, canton, the country, perh. orig., a district with fixed boundaries: cf. pangere to fasten. Cf. {Painim}, {Peasant}, and {Pact}, also {Heathen}.] One who worships false gods; an idolater; a heathen; one who is neither a Christian, a Mohammedan, nor a Jew. Neither having the accent of Christians, nor the gait of Christian, pagan, nor man. --Shak. Syn: Gentile; heathen; idolater. Usage: {Pagan}, {Gentile}, {Heathen}. Gentile was applied to the other nations of the earth as distinguished from the Jews. Pagan was the name given to idolaters in the early Christian church, because the villagers, being most remote from the centers of instruction, remained for a long time unconverted. Heathen has the same origin. Pagan is now more properly applied to rude and uncivilized idolaters, while heathen embraces all who practice idolatry. \Pa"gan\, a. [L. paganus of or pertaining to the country, pagan. See {Pagan}, n.] Of or pertaining to pagans; relating to the worship or the worshipers of false goods; heathen; idolatrous, as, pagan tribes or superstitions. And all the rites of pagan honor paid. --Dryden. I guess the bottom line is that what it looked to me like Peckary was asking is what do the Pagans on this board believe ? I must be getting old...I am starting to repeat myself. I also would be curious to see what the Pagans on this board believe.... the tenets of their faith.....Aon - by websters definition a Pagan as an Agnostic I believe that I already know what is entailed there  Peace Mikel |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 21-Jan-2004, 01:20 PM | ||
| hehe.. well if they want to call me pagan, fine.. I feel closer to alot of non-christians anyway simply because more of our values are the same... btw: I do like most of the satanic rules.. I'll just post them, even though not many might be interested \m/ I started informing myself about satanism since most people take me for one.. black clothes seem to have a weird effect on people
an interesting website: http://www.dpjs.co.uk/doctrine.html That's after the modern Church of Satan btw =) |
| Posted by: Raven 21-Jan-2004, 01:25 PM | ||
Since Christianity is defined by those who call themselves Christians I believe they have the right or at least the perogative to define what they are and what they are not. Which would lead to the logical conclusion that Christians also have the right to say what beliefs fit their system and what beliefs do not. The same can be said for Muslims, Buddists, Pagans,Satanists, John Birchers, Nazis, Green Peace, Wiccans, Boy Scouts the list goes on way beyond religeons. Whether you like what someone believes or not they have a right to believe what they want and if it excludes others from being a part of their religeon or club or not does not matter. That is just part of defining who they are. I will go out on a limb here and say that I don't think that would not agree that Christianity is a very exclusive religeon (it excludes people who are not of a like way of thinking particularly in the area of who Jesus Christ is) It's not a right or wrong way but it is the Christian way. Your turn Peace Mikel |
| Posted by: Raven 21-Jan-2004, 01:35 PM | ||||
Well.....you are kind of creepy looking (dodges thrown frying pan) he he he but I like that in my friends. I mean that as a complement |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 21-Jan-2004, 01:58 PM |
| i take it as a complement =) i'm known for being able to frighten little brats away |
| Posted by: RavenWing 21-Jan-2004, 03:13 PM | ||
I don't think that either, but when explaining it to someone who knows nothing about it, it is a good place to start. |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 21-Jan-2004, 03:20 PM |
| firstly that, and (starts to bore everyone to death instantly) I think historically you can say Pagan without any problem because everything we view is out of the eyes of Christianity (at least in the western worlds). |
| Posted by: Raven 21-Jan-2004, 03:20 PM | ||
touche (pronounced two shay not touchy ) |
| Posted by: RavenWing 21-Jan-2004, 03:23 PM | ||||
This is is a good thing to read concerning Satanism, or Setianism. Barddas - I think you may have posted links to here before. |
| Posted by: RavenWing 21-Jan-2004, 03:27 PM |
A link would help  http://www.xeper.org/pub/gil/xp_FS_gil.htm |
| Posted by: Raven 21-Jan-2004, 03:34 PM | ||
Why do you think that the western world would look at everything through the eyes of Christianity. Is it really that insidious or just militant?? |
| Posted by: Swanny 22-Jan-2004, 10:05 AM | ||
I don't much care to argue, but I enjoy lively debate. The difference in my mind is that "argument" implies anger. Religious discussoins in my house are usually enjoyable because they are discussions, rather than arguments. Shiloh does not try to convert me, and I don't try to influence her. We each know enough of the other's beliefs to keep each other 'honest'. When she thinks I may be going astray she may ask "what does the Spirit tell you" and in return, I may ask "What does your Bible say." We've been doing this for almost 23 years now. Raven, I'm curious. I've noticed that you consistently spell the word "religeon" as opposed to the more common "religion". Is there a significance to that? Regional difference in spelling such as "Humour" vs "Humor". Just curious, mind you. I'm not looking to peck a fight. Regarding my own beliefs, that's kind of a tough question to answer but I'll try because it was asked out of honest curiosity rather than an attempt to be rude. My beliefs don't necessarily fit into any one particular mold. Call it "Neo-paganism" I s'pose. I have lived most of my life in the company of Native Americans and, most recently, Native Alaskans. I am a strongly Native influenced white guy. As a child I was influenced primarily by Ute and a few Navaho. I've also spent quite a lot of time studying the spiritual culture of the Lakota Sioux and the Ojibwe. My own beliefs are a combination of all of these. As I try to explain my own beliefs please understand clearly from the very beginning that I am not a "shaman" or a "medicine man" or a "pipe carrier" or any sort of religious teacher. My beliefs are my own and do not reflect those of any particular Nation or Tribe or group of peoples. There is one primary diety that is so omnipotent that its breadth and scope can not be understood or appreciated by humans (though we always seem to try, don't we?). Along with the creation of life, the diety grants every living thing with the gift of spirit. All living things are spiritual as well as corporeal and are worthy of respect and veneration. All living things are of independent spirit, yet all are a part of the whole. Just as living beings interact physically, we also interact spiritually. Even hostile interactions are spiritual interactions (so I try to choose my enemies as least as carefully as I choose my friends.) Because all living things are given a part of the diety's spirit and are a part of the whole, we are all related by spirit if not by blood. The ceremonies I perform facilitate spiritual interaction. They are not "required" per se, and for this discussion they are not important. Also, they should be learned form a teacher, not from written words and as I've already noted, I am not a spiritual teacher. That is a roll for those who are much wiser than I. Swanny |
| Posted by: maisky 22-Jan-2004, 12:25 PM |
Swanny, I highly respect anyone willing to follow their own spiritual path. As a Buddhist, I long ago split from my christian (various sects) background. Examining our personal beliefs and questioning authority I believe are important in life, to be successful human beings.  |
| Posted by: Raven 22-Jan-2004, 12:32 PM | ||
Thanks for the reply Swanny (about what you be By the way i was being facitious about the likes to argue (and while I'm at it) which I was using the legal definition i.e. argue my case in court (not an angry word to me but I understand why people want to diferentiate.) I spell religion wrong because I am horrible at spelling They made me take remedial spelling at Purdue (all the good that it did me) spell checkers are wonderful things if you use them.Peace Mikel |
| Posted by: Jaxom 23-Jan-2004, 05:30 AM |
| just caught up after 3 days absence. just to put the record straight on JW's They most firmly belive themselves to be Christian, as they are followers of Christ. They belive that he is their saviour. They belive he is the son of god who died to redeem mankind once and for all time. If its not in the Bible, Old and New testaments then they do not belive it or follow it. They pray to God (Jehovah) using Jesus His son as a mediator, they worship the father (Jehovah) not the son Jesus. They are followers of Christ. Jesus. They do belive that Jesus is also called Michael (revelations). As a group they study the writings of the appossles eg Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, James see books in New testament of Bible However they belive that other Christian religions are corrupt because they have strayed from the teachings of Christ and taken on board Pagan beliefs and called them Christian. eg Christmass, Easter, Birthdays. if by definition a Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ and his teachings as laid down in the bible then JW's have to be Christian. 20 years of brainwashing from birth gives me "one big qualification" to spout out. And it has taken a further 18 years to try to put it all behind me. I am supprised that it still hurts so much. it has been almost as hard as recovering after physical torture. mind you which leaves the worst scars, mental or physical torture?....- Ho Hum. Jax |
| Posted by: Raven 23-Jan-2004, 07:58 AM | ||
Perhaps I should rephrase that. As they don't believe anyone else to be Christians (for the reasons cited) and refer to them in what comes across as derogatory "Christendom" conversely Mainstream Christians ie Catholics and Protestents alike do not consider JW's to be Christians for a variety of reasons but mainly over the issue of who Jesus is (ie Michael the archangel or God in the flesh) My point being that (see above posts) that there are more than 2 kinds of people (ie pagans and Christians) Just for further clarification on my comment "JW's don't consider themselves to be Christians" perhaps the reason it has come across to me this way (i always invite them in for lively discussion if they should come by my house, which for some reason they haven't for some time) is that they go to great lengths to separate themselves from mainstream Christianity. It seems like using terms like "you Christians" and calling themselves "Jehovah's Witnesses" plus their strong emphasis on following Jehovah and since they believe Christ to be an angel it would be against their theology to follow him are things that lead me to draw the conclusion (although erroneously from your perspective at least - by your perspective I mean from the inside as opposed to how those on the outside may percieve them) that they do not consider themselves to be Christians. The main tenets of mainstream Christianity that they would disagree on is the Triune nature of God/Jehova and the Diety of Christ which means they cannot worship him as God since they do not believe him to be God. Sorry for your bad experience. Spout away Jaxom it is your right I just didn't want you to think that I was shooting from the hip with that remark.Peace Love and Happiness Mikel |
| Posted by: maisky 23-Jan-2004, 08:19 AM | ||
I was watching a quiz show while working out yesterday. The question was "what are the fighting Irish?". The first answer given was "That is redundant". |
| Posted by: Jaxom 23-Jan-2004, 08:41 AM |
| personally I would like to embrace a pagan belief structure. the whole maxim of do no evil and love the earth, sounds like warm but good karma to me. However the film "the Wicka man" sticks in my head. I saw it as a child. (many moons ago) the thought of human sacrifice keeps on jabbing away in the back of my brain. Modern pagan practice seem to have no basis in sacrifice of either animals or humans. However voodoo seems to still have such sacrifice practices. the whole Satan worship and Occult sects give me the eibe-gebies. I really must learn more about pagan practice. Could anybody suggest some good reading or a good place to start. Hopefully nothing too deep to start off with. thanks Jax |
| Posted by: Swanny 23-Jan-2004, 09:15 AM | ||
Jaxom, we had a thread on this question some time back. Here's a link to it. http://www.celticradio.net/php/forums/index.php?showtopic=1230 |
| Posted by: RavenWing 23-Jan-2004, 09:40 AM |
| Thanks for posting that link, Swanny. Jaxom, I really recomment "Drawing Down the Moon" It is probably the best place to start if you just want to explore. |
| Posted by: peckery 23-Jan-2004, 10:01 AM | ||
Do you mean the WICKER MAN with Richard Chamberland??? |
| Posted by: Jaxom 23-Jan-2004, 12:03 PM |
| Swanny and RavenWing: thanks for your help... will look into it. Pekery: the film I refer to is a British film where islaners in a remote Scotish Isle keep to the Pagen ways and Edward Woodward plays a young Police man sent to the Isle to investergate a disaperience of a young girl. He ends up being placed inside a Wicker man along with various Animals and crops then the whole thing is set on fire. The reason he is chosen is because he is from off the island so will not be missed by the comunity, he also happens to be a virgin. So fits the bill for sacrifice by the islanders. cant remember if Richard Chamberland is in it. Sorry Jax |
| Posted by: Angel Whitefang (Rider) 23-Jan-2004, 12:55 PM |
| First off, being a former Mormon and being raised in that specific religion , Mormons ARE Christians. A christian by definition is any one believeing in Christ. Peckery, you can also try www.pagan.com it gives massive amounts of info that I as a Pagan/Wiccan/Witch have found very helpful in answering alot of my questions. Hope this helps.  |
| Posted by: Angel Whitefang (Rider) 23-Jan-2004, 01:01 PM | ||
yep That would be Wicker Man with Richard Harris I have yet to see the movie. does any one now how I can get a copy of it??? |
| Posted by: maisky 23-Jan-2004, 01:05 PM | ||
I always KNEW being a virgin was bad for you....... |
| Posted by: Angel Whitefang (Rider) 23-Jan-2004, 01:09 PM |
| Hmmm, makes you wonder why the Christians push for staying virginal until your married (human sacrifice going to resurface?) LOL I'm just kidding! |
| Posted by: Raven 23-Jan-2004, 01:15 PM | ||
I didn't mean to open this big can of worms see all previous posts complete with qualifications and explanations. plus reasons for bringing these others up.Using the Judeo-Christian meaning for Christian as defined by the new/old testaments combined (hence Judeo-Christian) one who follows Christ not just believes in. Although I do agree that Mormons do call themselves Christians - Mainstream Christianity(see before mentioned group) does not classify them that way. That's all I'm saying. I didn't make the classifications but I still believe there are more than 2. i.e Pagans/Christians - and probably as a whole pagans have more of a comonality between themselves than Mormons, Presbytirians, Catholic .....oh my the list goes on But what I think Peckary was really asking is what do the individual people/pagans on this board believe? I'm interested also....sorry that my comments have sidetracked this so much. Peace Mikel - My uncle is a Mormon |
| Posted by: RavenWing 23-Jan-2004, 01:28 PM |
| Ok what do I believe? This could take a while. Blargh I am having trouble explaining this. I will start with deity. I do not "worship" deities like most Chrisitans do with the Christian God. Instead, I see them as friends and guides. I honor them as I would honor an elder. I have not come to a concrete belief on whether all deities are aspects of the same, or are completely separate entites. Either I believe in reincarnation. I believe that all living things are connected. I believe in spirit guides and divination. I believe that spirituality is best practices by the way you live your life, rather than setting aside a day to practice. If anyone needs clarification, please feel free to ask. Also, if anyone as a specific question please feel free to ask. I will be happy to explain. |
| Posted by: barddas 23-Jan-2004, 01:29 PM | ||
I know the film *very* well! And, it stars Christopher Lee, as Lord Summer Ilse. Getting to your "Jabbing"s of sacrifice that taunt yer brain. Yes, it *is* something that happened. There is no hiding that fact/reality. And yes, in voodoo, Sasante'ri and other religions it happens. But most of the time the sacrifice its self is taken out of context. Just that there was a sacrifice using an animal. No, more information is usually ever given. But, in the case of the former practices listed these animals are prayed over( ie the ritual) then sacrificed ( killed) then (8 out of 10 )times prepared to be eaten. Not so scary when you break it down. Just a different progression of things, most christian beliefs are used to. Which is-- Go hunting for food, killing food, cooking said food and then praying over food.... Not really to different when it is put like that. There have been sacrifices all over the world for religious purpous'. Some human, some animal.... it is not a large practice anymore. Those that I have meet over the years that have/do sacrifices use the animal as an offering to their god. For what ever reason..... (and why let a perfectly good chicken go to waste.....eat that thing ) But you are asking god for what ever, thanking the animal for its life, then using it to feed yourself, and others. There is nothing wrong with that. I find that far more respectable to the animal than going to the market and buying it in a styropfoam container. We have seperated ourself as a culture from the land so much that these practices seem so foriegn. When people today go and buy meat at a market, the animals sacrifice is never even thought of. Heck, most people today haven't even been on a farm....... Sacrifice used to be a daily occurance in that aspect..... Look at the appreciation the Amish have for their livestock. They know that with out it, they could not provide for their families...they are still connected to the land.And human sacrifice we as a race have learned it is not nessesary. One would hope anyway.... But, I am starting to ramble..... |
| Posted by: RavenWing 23-Jan-2004, 01:30 PM |
| That was very well stated, Jason. |
| Posted by: barddas 23-Jan-2004, 01:34 PM | ||
You hit the nail on the head, deary!!!!! Going to church/ritual/temple etc....( worshiping services that's non denominational!!!!!!) every week doesn't make you a religious person if you are a jerk the rest of the time... And are concernd with only your self. |
| Posted by: barddas 23-Jan-2004, 01:38 PM |
| Thank you Mary, mary.... I did a whole 2 hour radio program on this topic years ago! The info has always stuck with me. Thankfully... |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 23-Jan-2004, 03:21 PM |
| The wicker man is a great film.. I watched it when I was about 14 or something and it really frightened me... Anyway, Jason, weren't there human sacrifices done in Europe (Teutons & Gauls) in really bad times? I know that shortly before Thera was blown up by a vulcanic eruption the Islanders actually sacrificed their own children. |
| Posted by: Jaxom 23-Jan-2004, 03:43 PM |
| Thank you bardas. You have put it all into perspective for me. having read the bible for a number of years thought I would mention the following. Abraham was prepared to sacrifice his son isaac (scollars belive issac to have been a man rather than a young boy at the time) to god. He finally sacrificed a ram that was caught in a bush. The Jews were commanded to sacrifice animals to atone for their sins. Mary and Joseph made a sacrifice after the birth of Jesus, on his behalf. Mary made a sacrifice of doves after her giving birth in order to be cleansed. and the ultermate sacrifice Jesus. Put to death in order to fulfill religious prophesy. I think I must have joined cloud cuckoo land to turn a blind eye to those sacrifices and find difficulty understanding pagan sacrifice. How my eyes seem to see clearly now that I am approaching it from a different view point. I apologize for any earlier blindness on my part. Oh and by the way Christians still sacrifice every year. its called Harvest Festival in Britan. Food and produce are layed at the alter in the church to be offered up to God in thanks. How easy it is to be blind to the churches history and origins. Jax |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 23-Jan-2004, 03:52 PM |
| hehe, I'm definitly not blind to it, I had to go to "Ernte Dank Fest" mass every year (that's the harvest festival, it's not only existing in Britain but also in Germany and other parts of europe) and the things given are called "Opfergaben" or simply "Opfer" which translates to both "Sacrifice" and "Victim" |
| Posted by: maisky 23-Jan-2004, 05:49 PM |
Maybe we should start our OWN festival and have revelry and sacrifices of beer  (after passing it through our kidneys) and virgins  . |
| Posted by: peckery 23-Jan-2004, 05:54 PM |
Just as long as no harm comes to any monkeys  |
| Posted by: Shadows 23-Jan-2004, 06:02 PM | ||
You quote" want to pass beer thought our kidneys and virgins "... what is with that? Let it go through my kidneys only... let the virgins get their own !!! Honestly ..what is with this virgin thing anyway? In all my experiences with virgins they lacked any knowledge of the act and made it very difficult to arrive at a agreeable conclusion for all involved! Give me a good old lady with experience anytime! This is being added minutes after my original post: Why do we as men feel we need to be the First through the gates? I was a virgin until an older experience woman lead the way... I am not ashamed to ay that either... long live the experienced!!! |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 23-Jan-2004, 06:07 PM |
hehe.. well, my humble thought is that men can't stand loosing out to others  |
| Posted by: Jaxom 24-Jan-2004, 04:41 AM |
| sound a good idea to me. We could make a circle. build a log fire. drink beer. strip off and dance the Monkey dance, sky-clad, waving our broomsticks. Jax |
| Posted by: Jaxom 24-Jan-2004, 04:42 AM |
| is roasting marshmallows Pagan? |
| Posted by: Jaxom 24-Jan-2004, 04:46 AM |
| thats a thought:- Sacrafical Marshmallows... more satisfying than Virgins. Then again we could have Chocolate and BBQ Steaks. This coven idea is sounding better all the time. extra thought - there are no callories in virtual chocolate at an on-line sabat. |
| Posted by: Raven 24-Jan-2004, 09:53 AM |
| I was thinking about this thread this morning and some of the answers that I have seen here and it sparked this thought with in me. As I stated before I am an avid student of comparitive religion. Some have posted on here to go to this site or read this book to find out what pagans believe. While this may give a generalized view it is in no way definitive. Organized religions on the other hand will have their theology written down and it may be more accessable. i.e. what the Catholic Church,Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Presbytirians, Buddists, Muslims, etc... believe and most of these groups have an established hierarchy. The odd thing that I have found is that most of the people with in any established religion that I talk to are not as fully aware of what their own group really stands for. In other words they have not even taked the time to read the essential works that the faith is based on let alone the organazations official theology. They rely on others to hand down this information often piece meal and orally. This then becomes a big game of gossip or telephone and the followers of a religion often end up with no idea what they are following. Paganism as a rule seems to lack the encumberences of an organization. I realize that their are hierarchys within smaller groups but no national/regional boards International Wiccan committee etc. The most notable exception that I am aware of is the church of Satan. If I am just ignorant fill me in, inquiring minds want to know. That said I am aware that there are a number of books that pagans look to for their spirituality. But they seem to be loose knit with no real defining work that says "this is the official manual of paganism". The way I see this it frees the individual of having a belief that is different than head quarters official line and what the individual believes is just their personal take and no one is going to sit them down and say look your paganism/Wiccan practices do not fit with what we have in our by laws now either toe the line or get out. Good for the individual but this also makes it difficult to grasp what it is all about. I personally see paganism in a broad light as a worship of nature sometimes expressed as a love of the mother earth, but I realize that this is in no way definitive. For some reason pagans often see a spirituality in Arminta and I that causes them to come to us after a show and ask us if we are pagans. The comment is often that we have this tangable spiritual presence. (maybe they are mistaking our stage presence ) We are not pagans. But at the same time I do not consider myself religious because while I consider myself to be a Christian I do not follow any of the religions that call themselves such. In my mind the religions are not Christian although I have met people with in them who are.(perhaps not being as argumentative as myself they are better able to co-habitate )Which brings us back to the topic what do the pagans on this board believe. Thank you to all that have shared. It is very educational to say the least. Peace and Good Will Mikel |
| Posted by: Raven 24-Jan-2004, 09:57 AM | ||
Just an aside here and you probably already know this. That Jesus was also supposed to be the ultimate sacrifice to end all sacrifice (part of the prophecy that he fulfilled) doing away with the need for sacrifice and cleansing all who accept his sacrifice as no human or animal blood could. |
| Posted by: maisky 24-Jan-2004, 10:13 AM | ||||
OK, now we are up to forming a circle, starting a fire, stripping down, drinking beer, dancing the monkey dance and cooking steaks! This works for me. I guess we can forgo the virgins, but we can still let some in if they are willing to learn! I DO plan to wear at least an apron while cooking steaks on an open fire. Doing this naked could be rather hazardous to my, errr, HEALTH! |
| Posted by: maisky 24-Jan-2004, 10:14 AM | ||
And no hangover and no pregnancies!!! WOW! |
| Posted by: Jaxom 24-Jan-2004, 10:34 AM |
| I call on those present to form a circle and for the High priest / priestess to call to the four points and invoke the goddess / deity fill in blanks as appropriate. Now what? |
| Posted by: Angel Whitefang (Rider) 28-Jan-2004, 12:29 PM |
| WOO HOO sounds FUN! *Calls in the Dragons* Yes, if you hadn't noticed, I'm all about Dragons and Dragon Magick! |
| Posted by: Sėmeag 26-Feb-2009, 05:08 PM | ||
Paganism is not a religion in and of itself; its an umbrella term to encompass those paths that do not honour, worship or believe in the God of Abraham, who is central to the three religions: Christianity, Islam and Judaism. I discovered it at the end of a long search trying to find a religion that matched my beliefs and ideals. It was a chance encounter with someone that led me to others, however I realised I had always been pagan, just didn't realise there was a title or others around. I have never hidden my paganism from others. However, it is necessary in some places, as they still kill pagans in many countries these days. |
| Posted by: Sėmeag 26-Feb-2009, 05:13 PM | ||
Paganism, as a whole, cannot be definitive, as it encompasses a range of path, traditions, beliefs and philosophies. Someone who follow shinto is going to have very different beliefs from an initiated Wiccan. Some paths follow gods, others don't. Some believe in magic, others don't. Speaking of which, there is a set of rules, etc. for initiated, lineaged Wicca. Its just you won't find it on any internet site, or in any book, unless your initiated into a linaged coven, when you will be required to write it out by hand.  Other paths, too, have their guides. Even family traditions have their myths and mysteries to be passed down through generations, but not discussed with outsiders. So, do you now understand why there is no definitive book of paganism? |