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> Surviving These Times, Recession, Depression, Financial Ruin
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CelticRadio 
Posted: 13-Dec-2008, 08:44 PM
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These are uncertain times we are living in. In fact, they are historic times. As I read the news on the latest financial crisis, bank failure, or bankruptcy it occurs to me that no one, except the depression era folks, have lived through such an uncertain time period as we are today.

Massive layoffs are occurring across our country. Wall Street is swinging widely from plus to minus. Oil prices have dropped from a high of $147 a barrel to $40 a barrel.

12 million Americans own more on their mortgages then their homes are valued at! And home prices are expected to keep falling until 2010!

We are in massive correction to our economies and lifestyles. And if you are like most people, you probably could not survive very long without your paycheck!

I would like to start this thread to discuss ways to deal with the current economic crisis and what you and families can do to prepare. I know this might sound kinda crazy, but have you thought about stocking up on can foods in your house? Maybe installing a Wood burning stove, cutting back on your weekly or monthly expenses. Bringing a bag lunch to work instead of buying. Maybe starting a small part-time business?

These are all topics up for discussion. If we expand this topic into its own forum, we could even discuss bankruptcy laws, credit cards, mortgages, unemployment, SSDI and more.

More than ever, I am very convinced that this financial crisis could be the start of the Great Depression II. Things are currently in play that just can not be stopped and who survives depends alot on preparation and anticipation.

If you are interested in such a forum, let us know. And also what you think about the current economic crisis, where you think it is heading and how you are preparing.


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Patch 
Posted: 13-Dec-2008, 09:42 PM
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I could not agree more with your assessment. I still see people who are in denial and do not want to consider lifestyle changes.

I am looking at raising rabbits, chickens and goats. I am lobbying to get restrictions on that eased inside the city limits. ( I have a place for them outside of town.) I have a raised garden now and plan to increase it next year. I have a multi fuel pellet/corn/cherry pit stove and a freezer/pantry full of food. I am buying silver 1 oz bars as a buffer should inflation run rampant. My jewelry is all in the bank in a safety deposit box. I am testing to see what medication I can live without and stock piling meds that I can. My auto is nondescript and blends in. I do not dress up so that I can avoid attracting attention.

Crime is my worst concern. friends and family have developed an alarm system that does not rely on ADT or others. I have a dog that is "protective" and alarms that will alert me if someone attempts to gain entry. I have the means to protect myself at home and away. I fear there may be restrictions placed on self defense in the next 4 years but hope I am wrong.

I just bought a "twisted" cane/walking stick which can double as a Shillelagh.

If anyone has other ideas, I am open to suggestions.

Slàinte,    

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InRi 
Posted: 14-Dec-2008, 10:05 AM
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Well, what I have to say about...
...I am someone you could call "the man on the street". I have to work hard and a long time for relativ less money. I have to pay a lot of money for a new-builded house and I am very happy if after the money doesn't remain a lot of month...
These are the facts - in good times and also in crisis times.
The good matter is: I have a (fulltime) job.
In my opinion are two things most important for me:

First: to hope the people send out parcels enough so that I can do my job anymore.
Secound: to keep well and fit so that I don't lose the job.

In my case I couldn't change my livestyle, because the only thing I already do is to work for survive... I can't affort such "luxurious" things as long vacations (the last was a two weeks trip to Sweden in 2002) or a new car (I use currently a almost 10 years old car that has done already 185.000 km - r.a. 111.000 miles). Unfortunately the effects of crisis hit the people from humble homes first.
I can repeat only: The most important thing is for me, don't lose the current job and if that happens to find a new job very fast...
QUOTE (CelticRadio)
Maybe starting a small part-time business?
...sorry but I work currently till 14 hours per day in one job...any questions your honor?
QUOTE (CelticRadio)
In fact, they are historic times.
Thank you very much, but I'd like to renounce this kind of historic times.

Sorry Paul, please don't misunderstand me. I don't want to affront you. Maybe it seems so - but I quoted because these lunged at me very intensive.

Regards from Austria

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LadyOfAvalon 
Posted: 14-Dec-2008, 11:15 AM
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QUOTE (CelticRadio @ 13-Dec-2008, 08:44 PM)
These are uncertain times we are living in. In fact, they are historic times. As I read the news on the latest financial crisis, bank failure, or bankruptcy it occurs to me that no one, except the depression era folks, have lived through such an uncertain time period as we are today.

Massive layoffs are occurring across our country. Wall Street is swinging widely from plus to minus. Oil prices have dropped from a high of $147 a barrel to $40 a barrel.

12 million Americans own more on their mortgages then their homes are valued at! And home prices are expected to keep falling until 2010!

We are in massive correction to our economies and lifestyles. And if you are like most people, you probably could not survive very long without your paycheck!

I would like to start this thread to discuss ways to deal with the current economic crisis and what you and families can do to prepare. I know this might sound kinda crazy, but have you thought about stocking up on can foods in your house? Maybe installing a Wood burning stove, cutting back on your weekly or monthly expenses. Bringing a bag lunch to work instead of buying. Maybe starting a small part-time business?

These are all topics up for discussion. If we expand this topic into its own forum, we could even discuss bankruptcy laws, credit cards, mortgages, unemployment, SSDI and more.

More than ever, I am very convinced that this financial crisis could be the start of the Great Depression II. Things are currently in play that just can not be stopped and who survives depends alot on preparation and anticipation.

If you are interested in such a forum, let us know. And also what you think about the current economic crisis, where you think it is heading and how you are preparing.

Hi Paul,

Again I do understand you're meaning but let's not panic in this situation that even though these are tough times for a lot of people,but we practically lived them in the 80's here...

I for one lost my job 2 months ago on the pretext that the company had to cut down on payrolls...(a company run by the US I might add) no offense...and here we are suffering the consequences of this deflation in the US while what we hear on TV this morning is that of a baseball player who will be paid over 160 millions of dollars over a period of 7 years to hit a freaking ball in a stadium packed with people that "supposedly" live a "major economic crisis"....now where is the logic in this....

You write about what can people do to prepare to face an eventual Great Depression...well again no offense but Americans (no offense intended) should start by getting their priority straight by "boycotting" these excess by not encouring sports...don't get me wrong...I have nothing against sports but it has taken to a stage of ridiculously appaling proportion of abuse in my eyes by paying men for games these huge amount of money that no human being worth that much.

When I say "boycotting" is not going to the games and buying beer that cost trice the amount worth, buying hot dogs and not to mention "tickets" that cost a bundle.

I lost my job while the company has still a budget to buy "season hockey tickets" that cost over 10K a year just to give out to customers as gifts....not to mention the "season tickets for playoff"... now what do I do to prepare for depression....I think this question should be addressed to corporations and governments which by the way is all that they want...what is the best way to put an economy back on it's feet again...call a recession and voilà!!!

As for what I do here personally...well let's see...first I don't go to sports event to encourage greedy professionnals players/athletes and their managers,I don't own gadgets (cell phone and such) I don't change my car every 2 years just to flahs around, we have our own garden, do my own compost, recycle.

No offense intended to nobody.Just my two pence to the question...

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Aaediwen 
Posted: 14-Dec-2008, 12:33 PM
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I also agree, although I focus on corporate board members getting multi-million dollar salaries. Cut that in half would alone save companies a crap load of money and the execs would still be making millions per year.

As for what I'm doing, I'm trying to get bills paid off as much as I can, and putting money in to stocks while the prices are down. With starting while so low, means that while it's low should be about the same returns as one might normally expect. Then when things start picking back up, just ride the wave.


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Patch 
Posted: 14-Dec-2008, 12:47 PM
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As you suggest, I do not attend sporting events and I further boycott any business that, in my opinion, engages in unfair pricing. It has become a long list. I have yet to figure out how to deal with the food manufacturing industry as the price gouging is so wide spread. I will be raising most of my food by mid summer next year.

We here in America need to listen to the economists, not the Government, and plan. Most have their heads in the sand and do not want to hear bad news. A pharmacist I know says he will not open his 401k statements until this is over as it is depressing. When he does there may be little left. There is still time for financial planning. NO interest Treasury Certificates "may" be better choice than loosing 5 to 10% every month or quarter. It would be the equivalent of burying it in the flower bed, but maybe safer.

It makes me sad and angry to hear the news and find how far back this goes. My Father made his economic prediction in 1995 prediction based on Ragan (where it all started subtly), Bush 1 and Clinton. When you look at the policy change that took place when Volkert was replaced by Greenspan, "Trickle Down Economics" may have nothing but been a lie. I am just beginning to research that. Not that it will help now but I want my kids and grand kids to understand it!

The Bernard L. Maddof ponzi scam shows the mentality here and Govt still trusts industry leaders to get us out of this. One has to wonder what color the sky is in Washington DC. There have been many billions lost in this scam and some pension funds will turn their little feet to the sky because if it. If there is one, there are almost certainly more! Where there is greed, these things happen.

If the American public does not begin to prepare soon and this includes boycotting the worst offenders in industry, they will be at the "tender" mercies of the Govt. God forbid!! Wait too long and it will be food pantries, soup kitchens and homeless shelters. I am betting the soup will bear no resemblance to the kind Mom made.

As an American, I realize we are most probably the instigator, but others jumped in too. I hope and pray that there is a soft bottom under it all. And speaking of "pray", it is amazing the number of people now attending church. The last few weeks, they have been standing in the enclosed entrance as the seating is full. The weekly collection has increased substantially too. I have only seen these attendance levels at Easter and Christmas Masses! Obviously some are beginning to "think".

Slàinte,    

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CelticRadio 
Posted: 14-Dec-2008, 02:14 PM
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Some great comments here and no offense taken by me! A small garden or farm is a great idea. I like that one, except in cold weather climates that may not be practical in the winter - unless you had a greenhouse or indoor garden.

My post was written with great thought as not to alarm people. I would not want to be an alarmist nor to scare people.

From a financial and economic perspective, the prospective of the Great Depression II has increased substantially within the last 30 days. I am not saying it is going to happen, but I am saying that the "Perfect Economic Storm" is building and conditions are right for "Deflation" and further contraction of our economies.

People might think deflation is a good thing. And while it is generally good for a short period of time, once your salary starts reducing then it becomes another story. And yes, run away deflation will result in companies reducing our paychecks to keep in line with costs.

The last time that happened was during the Great Depression.

For background information and the latest news on Deflation, check Google:

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&tab=wn&n...=us&q=deflation
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Patch 
Posted: 14-Dec-2008, 04:46 PM
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Precaution can do nothing but help. Canning, freezing and drying can extend a summer harvest into a year round supply. In cities, roof top and flower bed gardens produce surprising quantities. Small animals are another matter. Beans and rice however form a "complete" protein. My son has two and a half acres with some animals. Others may have friends who can raise protein. Working together is important in dealing with economic down turns and it usually gives everyone a good feeling. All of my children have gardens on their property. I can expand mine to 50' by 70' easily. From my 5 by 25 raised garden I have shared tomato's, green beans and cucumbers and some years cabbages for a long time. Investing wisely now is not a bad idea though I do not know what is a wise investment. Caution, research and or a good counselor would be a must I believe. alcohol usually does well in times of financial crisis. Brewers, distillers and small neighborhood bars tend to weather economic storms. A small family business could be good and again, research is the key.

If you are or become unemployed, think about retraining in a field likely to weather the down turn.

I know a couple that bought silver in the 60's during a recession and have held it to this day.

Should this be only a speed bump, you will be poised to reap benefits from the recovery.

This is not about "panic." In panic, there is confusion and decisions are not always sound. This IS about fore thought and planning to the best of ones ability. Not every idea is right for everyone. Some ideas are better for municipal areas than rural settings and vice-versa. We are educated people and have the ability to make sound decisions.



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Patch 
Posted: 14-Dec-2008, 05:39 PM
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QUOTE (CelticRadio @ 14-Dec-2008, 03:14 PM)


People might think deflation is a good thing. And while it is generally good for a short period of time, once your salary starts reducing then it becomes another story. And yes, run away deflation will result in companies reducing our paychecks to keep in line with costs.

The last time that happened was during the Great Depression.


This is an excellent source of information on deflation. The Federal reserve is about out of wiggle room on interest rate cuts but they have another tool at their disposal. They control the money supply. It is not as healthy and harder to balance but "creating" a larger supply of money can create inflation.

The book by G. Edward Griffin titled "The Creature From Jekyl Island" is still available at some book stores and on Amazon. It is the story of the founding of the Federal Reserve and though rather dry at some points, it is an interesting read. I would recommend it to anyone who is interested in how our financial and monetary system is likely to react. I have bought and loaned 4 copies and presently have none.

I remember Dad telling of his experiences with declining income. The Scot side were all farmers and the family did butchering on peoples farms for income. They got 75 cents and the hide for a beef and 50 cents for hogs skinned and 75 cents "scraped". Sheep and goats were a quarter. I helped him from 1949 till 1954 and the demand died out. Dad sold life insurance and a 500 dollar policy netted him a commission of 25 cents with a smaller annual renewal commission. If he took the commission in stock, he got 50 cents worth of stock. I have most of his old ledgers from 1930 through 1945 with a few missing. The prices for farm commodities was interesting. We (my brothers/sisters and I) have old newspapers he saved showing prices in the early 30's. One in particular was an article on the completion of the new steps on the Post Office building. The picture also portrayed the window of the town grocery store next door. The prices on the window in white wash paint indicated eggs were 3 cents a dozen, milk 4 cents a gallon, bread 4 cents a loaf, (most baked their own) ground beef 5 cents a pound, 3 pounds for 12 cents and flour was 3 cents a pound. Dad said most farmers took 100 lb of wheat to the feed mill and had it ground for a half cent a pound. As a kid I could not understand the problem. Dad explained that people had been making 15 to 25 dollars a week and in the early 30's they were lucky to make 65 cents to a dollar a day and most jobs were "day" jobs.

One could probably search and find more specific information on the net.

As you said at the start, we are living history.

Slàinte,    

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Posted: 14-Dec-2008, 06:27 PM
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You know I agree times are tough I think a lot of people got too caught up in these financial risks but that is what they are risks. I don't know how many lenders and real estate agents were saying that this isn't a bubble but it will keep going up then flat line and go up. WRONG! I told them that to their faces and they thought I was stupid.

I own 3 companies, I run one of them full time. I think times are tough and I think bailout are mistakes. when I was young I ran up 10K in credit card debt and my parents bailed me out then I ran up 20k in debt one more time they bailed me out it wasn't until the 3rd time at 40k I put a stop to the bailing out... I wouldn't ask and had to pay it off myself or file bankruptcy (this was before my businesses). The point is I didn't learn from my mistakes I just made them again and worse bailouts can work but I would think that as a last resort.

Going back to the company I own... I am in the luxury area of products. Home Automation, lighting Control, Home Cinemas and I am still busy (by the grace of God) but I am also being very smart with my money. Not spending Superfluously, cutting back on company expenditures and even cutting my own personal salary.

I give that advice to everyone who asks me how to deal with these times. It could last 6 months, a year, 3 years 5 years, who knows but cutting the fat and being aware of where every dime you have is whether business or personal is key to having control over your finances.

As far as real estate goes the people that bought multiple properties using Interest only and Adjustable rates were foolish to begin with. I do understand that those that were not trying to make a buck and were just trying to give there family a home have lost a lot... I have seen it and it hurts to see friends and family lose a house and I feel for them.

I worked hard to get where I am and I don't have a lot but I own a house now and I help those I can. I think the government is making huge mistakes with all the bailouts and I am quite honestly concerned about the government buying controlling interest in banks, that is a flag raiser.

If you are a business owner or employee just read above about spending and watching your money because: "until it leaves your pocket, it is your money"


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Posted: 16-Dec-2008, 06:37 PM
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Before these hard times. The Mrs. and me started a corse by Dave Ramsey. All I can say is I wish started 5 years ago. But following his advice was one of the smartest things we ever did.


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Jillian 
Posted: 18-Dec-2008, 07:15 AM
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This economy has done one thing...it has gotten our attention. We are all becoming more critical of the gluttonous behavior of people all over the world - not just America. Professional athletes and CEO's are ridiculously paid, and quite frankly, no one is worth that much money. The bloated fortunes have certainly led to living a life of extreme leisure - which often leads to partying or pleasure-seeking. We've become a frivolous people and we now must shift our thinking to what we need, not necessarily what we want.

In terms of preparation, I have begun to consider how much to stock up on canned goods. How often do we rotate them? What is the best way to stock up on water? Is it buying those large water cooler jugs? How long does it stay preserved? What should I do w/the money I have? Should some be hidden in a hole in the ground, or won't it matter because the dollar will have no value? Should I really invest in gold? I've considered buying a gun.

I'm not sure of the answers, but I do think things will get much worse.

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Patch 
Posted: 18-Dec-2008, 09:08 AM
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I looked for expiration dates on canned goods but have been told, if the can is not rusted, leaking or the ends rounded out, the contents are good. I got an indelible marker and dated the cans. Starch items can get bugs in the contents. No time frame seems to be determined for that to happen. I have three year old Mac. and Cheese which is OK but I am eating it (it isn't my favorite) so that I can rotate. A quality "seal-a-meal will vacuum package food and make frozen and dry packaged foods last much longer. My plan is to rotate every 12 to 18 months. If I remember correctly the Mormon religion advocates keeping a two or three year supply of food on hand. If I am not correct on the time, please let me know.

Water poses another problem. A "clean" 55 gal. plastic food quality barrel or sealable 5 gal plastic buckets with lids would work well. they must have had no dangerous chemicals in them in the past. A supply of Chlorine bleach would be helpful to insure it's purity. I am considering ways to catch rain water for cleaning and to prevent it from freezing in the winter.

Money that is buried in the ground could "disappear" should anyone have an idea that it is there. Gold will preserve the value of large amounts of money (because of its value) where silver will be more spendable as it is cheaper. Both will act as investments too.

With firearms: I recommend that everyone in the household have safety training and if old enough training in the use of firearms if one is to be kept in the home. Plenty of ammunition may be as important as firearms as that may be the first attempt to "control" firearms. There are other non lethal methods of self defense that family members can learn too. If you have children, they rely on you to provide for their safety. That is a major responsibility. Home security systems can be expensive but there are less expensive options at Radio Shack and similar outlets. Most criminals avoid light (motion lights) and loud warning alarms. A small gun safe or regular safe hidden in a closet will offer protection for your valuables since if your bank were to close (not likely because of losses, but due to public panic,) you will not be able to access your safe deposit box. That may be where your gold, silver and/or other necessities are located.

Those in urban areas will need to plan more than those in small communities and rural areas.

Probably the most important thing I can stress is: Do nothing to attract attention to yourself. Store the expensive jewelry and accessories. If you drive a Cadillac or Lincoln, buy a used Chevy or Ford and park the high dollar car. Try to dress to blend in. Try to project confidence as some people just look vulnerable. Go places in groups where possible as there is safety in numbers.

Common sense rules, just think about what you plan to do.

By thinking of safety and security, you will develop even more ideas.

Slàinte,    

Patch    
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deadeye08 
Posted: 23-Dec-2008, 01:32 AM
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I am glad I found this site there are a lot of like minded people here.

Just a note on survival...

If you have more weapons then food you are not a survivalist. (I'm sure thats up for discussion)

Make sure you have your food, equipment, and weapons in a place you can get to easy and have a plan that you and your family know and plan out different situations, earthquake, tornado, civil upset.

Make a checklist that is out in the open where you store most of your materials.

Know where to meet up in an event where you have to abandon your home. Dont take more then you can carry be smart about you loadout.

Remember if you have canned food you need something to cook it with.

MRE's are quick and easy but have a shorter shelf life then dehydrated and canned foods.

I'm sure I could post more but that might need to go to a special interest forum.
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Posted: 23-Dec-2008, 07:21 AM
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QUOTE (Patch @ 18-Dec-2008, 09:08 AM)
I looked for expiration dates on canned goods but have been told, if the can is not rusted, leaking or the ends rounded out, the contents are good.  I got an indelible marker and dated the cans.  Starch items can get bugs in the contents.  No time frame seems to be determined for that to happen.  I have three year old Mac. and Cheese which is OK but I am eating it (it isn't my favorite) so that I can rotate.  A quality "seal-a-meal will vacuum package food and make frozen and dry packaged foods last much longer.  My plan is to rotate every 12 to 18 months.  If I remember correctly the Mormon religion advocates keeping a two or three year supply of food on hand.  If I am not correct on the time, please let me know.

Water poses another problem.  A "clean" 55 gal. plastic food quality barrel or sealable 5 gal plastic buckets with lids would work well.  they must have had no dangerous chemicals in them in the past.  A supply of Chlorine bleach would be helpful to insure it's purity.  I am considering ways to catch rain water for cleaning and to prevent it from freezing in the winter. 

Money that is buried in the ground could "disappear" should anyone have an idea that it is there.  Gold will preserve the value of large amounts of money (because of its value)  where silver will be more spendable as it is cheaper.  Both will act as investments too.

With firearms: I recommend that everyone in the household have safety training and if old enough training in the use of firearms if one is to be kept in the home.  Plenty of ammunition may be as important as firearms as that may be the first attempt to "control" firearms.  There are other non lethal methods of self defense that family members can learn too.  If you have children, they rely on you to provide for their safety.  That is a major responsibility.  Home security systems can be expensive but there are less expensive options at Radio Shack and similar outlets.  Most criminals avoid light (motion lights) and loud warning alarms.  A small gun safe or regular safe hidden in a closet will offer protection for your valuables since if your bank were to close (not likely because of losses, but due to public panic,) you will not be able to access your safe deposit box.  That may be where your gold, silver and/or other necessities are located.

Those in urban areas will need to plan more than those in small communities and rural areas.

Probably the most important thing I can stress is:  Do nothing to attract attention to yourself.  Store the expensive jewelry and accessories.  If you drive a Cadillac or Lincoln, buy a used Chevy or Ford and park the high dollar car.  Try to dress to blend in.  Try to project confidence as some people just look vulnerable.  Go places in groups where possible as there is safety in numbers.

Common sense rules, just think about what you plan to do.

By thinking of safety and security, you will develop even more ideas.

Slàinte,    

Patch    

We are all intitle to our opinion in life and I respect that...but isn't it pushing the thing a bit too far in that kind of statement that is to me bordering on "paranoia"??

My mother and father and grandparents lived through the Great Depression in the 30's and 40's and they "survived" it even with big families to feed on both sides...they "survived" it by sacrifice and lived on simple things...not with over indulgence like people are use to today...and this is why people are afraid of what is going on...I think that it is because they are afraid of loosing their lifestyle which is so precious to some that to have to "reduce" is out of the question...

As for a statement like what I read here...the only thing that comes to mind is that if it's not being "alarmist" I don't know what is.For I simply don't understand what stocking up with firearms has anything to do with this discussion.This is no bloody nuclear war...

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous.

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