Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
Celtic Radio Community > Scotland > Article Regarding Scots Culture In Us/ca


Posted by: scotborn 06-Apr-2008, 07:36 AM
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/andrew_mickel/2008/04/taunted_by_tartan.html

There has been discussions on this forum regarding the views of irish/scots in ireland and scotland and I came across this articlethat some people may find interesting.

Posted by: Camac 06-Apr-2008, 09:03 AM
I have read the article and in most part I agree with what the gentleman wrote. There is one thing though that I really dislike and that is being called British. I am not British never have been and never will be. I was born in SCOTLAND of Scottish parent who in turn were born of SCOTTISH parents ad infinitum. Would you call and Irishman (not Ulsterman) British. We Scots and Irish are the same people at our roots.I spent two weeks in Scotland last October and every member of my family ( Clan Campbell)I met and there were close to 100 of them do not consider themselves British.


Camac.



Posted by: Lady of Avalon 06-Apr-2008, 05:12 PM
Hello scotborn, I thought you might want to read an article from another great website that I enjoy reading now for many years which is electric scotland. Here it is. It talks about Tartan Day and of course the Scots in Canada and what they have brought from their culture.LOA

Canada
Canada's—´ Scots and Tartan Day Celebrations
by Marie Fraser



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It's refreshing to have a Scot like Alastair McIntyre ask how Canadians perceive themselves and how they celebrate their Scots heritage, rather than being lumped in with those other descendants of expatriate Scots who settled on that smaller land mass to the south of us. I believe it was Professor Edward J. Cowan, a friend and former head of the School of Scottish Studies at the University of Guelph, Ontario, now head of the Department of Scottish History at the University of Glasgow, who, during one of his lively lectures, displayed one of those traditional maps of Scotland showing the Shetland Islands in a small box at the top right hand corner. Ted explained that the inhabitants of the latter were so fed up with being identified as that tiny spot at the top right hand corner of the map, they decided to produce their own map of the Shetland Islands showing Mainland Scotland in a small box at the bottom left hand corner of the map. My favourite analogy is Ludovic Kennedy's "In Bed with an Elephant, A Journey through Scotland's Past and Present" (1995), where the Anglo-Scot broadcaster and writer chose the title from a 1969 speech given by Canadian Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau in Washington, DC to relate with humour his view of Scotland's rather stormy relationship with England over the centuries. Trudeau's mother was an Elliott and his father-in-law was Jimmy Sinclair, Rhodes scholar, RCAF fighter pilot in WW II, a well-known federal politician and businessman in Vancouver, BC who was born in Grange, Banffshire.
Background

Scots have been leaving home for hundreds of years. While the population of Scotland is around five million, it is estimated that there are many more millions of people with some Scottish ancestry, worldwide. Wherever they went, Scots adapted to their new country but seldom forgot their heritage. If anything, these expatriates have held onto their Scottishness more enthusiastically than Scots living in Scotland.

The impact of Scots on North America has been considerable. They have integrated into the culture of their adopted countries and contributed to many facets of society, but seldom have they been vocal about their efforts. One might suggest that Scots tend to be "clannish", celebrating their music and customs with one another, but they are often overlooked as an ethnic group in the increasingly multicultural mix of Canada and the United States. To add to this confusion, Scots are usually lumped in with the "English" population when census time comes around, and it has been difficult to estimate what a large group Scots really represent in the population of Canada and the United States.

The impact of Scots on the development of Canada is remarkable. If we accept the claim that Prince Henry Sinclair sailed from the Orkney Islands and landed in what is now Nova Scotia and the coast of New England in 1398, or that Scottish sailors accompanied the early Vikings who landed in Newfoundland in 1010, the influence of Scots may be greater than previously imagined. It is a matter of record that the Fraser Highlanders represented the largest contingent of troops in the British Army under General James Wolfe (1727-59). The role of the 78th Fraser Highlanders, raised in Scotland in 1757 to fight for the British against France during the Seven Years War (1757-63), has been well documented. Many Scottish soldiers stayed on after the regiment was disbanded in 1763, married French women, and settled in the new country, leaving numerous descendants, many of whom are totally Francophone, who are proud of their Scottish ancestry.

Worsening economic conditions in the Highlands following the disaster of Culloden in 1746 caused many Highland Scots to emigrate to countries around the world in search of a better life. Scots came in vast numbers to Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick, Quebec and Eastern Ontario in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. While conditions were harsh in the new country, the hardy Scots adapted well and soon prospered. Highland Scots were the prime movers in the North West Company of fur traders, based in Montreal. They helped to establish trade routes and explore the vast country where only native peoples had been before. Scots built Montreal, helped to establish banks, insurance companies and merchant trading companies. They established educational institutions, were prominent in medicine, law and the clergy. They included politicians, educators and skilled tradesmen, manufacturers and farmers. Scots excelled in all facets of life in their adopted country which, in 1867, became Canada.

The idea of setting aside one day each year to honour the role of Scots in the early history of Canada was put forward in the late 1980s by Mrs. Jean Watson of Nova Scotia. Mrs. Watson worked tirelessly to solicit support from politicians and Scottish groups in Nova Scotia to establish Tartan Day, eventually gaining enough support for the idea to have it accepted. She did not stop there, and continued to write letters to federal and provincial politicians and Scottish groups across Canada, urging them to adopt Tartan Day. Her persistence paid off, when the Clans & Scottish Societies of Canada endorsed her idea and convinced Ontario MPP Bill Murray to put forward a Private Member's Bill in the Ontario Legislature, to adopt Tartan Day in Ontario, which was passed on December 19, 1991, with unanimous support of all three parties. Other provinces and the Yukon Territories followed with similar resolutions, and by 2000 all, except Quebec and Newfoundland, recognized April 6th as Tartan Day.

Efforts have been made to recognize the contribution of Scots by establishing similar events to Tartan Day in other countries, but these events have usually been held on July 1st. Since July 1st is celebrated as Canada Day, the date of April 6th was chosen to celebrate Tartan Day in Canada.

On 6th April 1320, at Arbroath Abbey on the east coast of Scotland, the nobles, barons and freeholders, together with the "whole community of the realm of Scotland," subscribed a letter to Pope John XXII, asking him to recognise the country's political independence under the kingship of Robert Bruce, declaring the independence of Scotland from English domination following the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314. Sir Alexander Fraser, who in 1316 married Robert the Bruce's widowed sister, Lady Mary, was appointed Chamberlain of Scotland in 1319, and his seal appears on this inspirational document which became known as The Declaration of Arbroath.

"But if our King were to abandon the cause by being ready to make us, or our kingdom, subject to the King of England or to the English, we should at once do our utmost to expel him as our enemy and the betrayer of his own rights and ours, and should choose some other man to be our king, who would be ready to defend us. For so long as a hundred of us shall remain alive, we are resolved not to submit to the domination of the English. It is not for glory, wealth or honour that we are fighting, but for freedom and freedom only, which no true man ever surrenders except with his life."

Since that time, Scotland has been a sovereign nation, now part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

As Past Chairman of Clans & Scottish Societies of Canada, my husband, W. Neil Fraser, represented CASSOC at a conference of the principal organizations in the United States, convened by the Caledonian Foundation, USA Inc., in Sarasota, Florida in March 1996. During that conference he explained why it would have been inappropriate for us to choose July 1st (Canada Day), in the same way that it would be inappropriate for them to choose July 4th (Independence Day). He also reported on the efforts of CASSOC to establish Tartan Day as a national day to celebrate our Scottish heritage in Canada and explained the concept of the event celebrated in Canada since 1987. The idea was met with great interest by the participants and was subsequently adopted by the Coalition of U.S. Scottish Organizations established as a result of the Sarasota conference.

The first observance of Tartan Day on a national basis in the United States was on April 6th 1997, and a resolution proclaiming April 6th as Tartan Day was entered into the U.S. Congressional Record on the following day.

In February 2000, Neil and I were invited to attend the Sarasota conference of the Scottish Coalition, representing six of the leading U.S. Scottish organizations, where he chaired a workshop on Tartan Day (April 6th).

Alan L. Bain, President of The American-Scottish Foundation, Inc., based in New York, telephoned Neil and sent a transcript of his remarks about National Tartan Day, on the occasion of the Wallace Award Presentation to Sir Sean Connery in Washington, DC on April 5, 2001, in the presence of Vice President Dick Cheney; Sir Sean and Lady Connery; Senator Trent Lott, Her Majesty's Ambassador to the United States, Sir Christopher Meyer; First Minister McLeish, Dr. Lloyd J. Ogilvie, Senate Chaplain and President of the St. Andrew's Society of Washington, DC, and other distinguished guests.

"And finally to two individuals who are not present today but for whose efforts Tartan Day may have never come into being, Neil Fraser, Chairman, Clan Fraser Society of Canada, who introduced the concept of Tartan Day to the Scottish Coalition, and Duncan MacDonald, defacto Head of the Scottish Coalition, a lady of indomitable spirit who, by sheer force of her will, drove Coalition members to make Tartan Day a reality. Thank you one and all."

Proof, once again, that Scots can work together to accomplish almost anything - especially when they are steered in the right direction by such dynamic ladies as Duncan MacDonald and Joanne Phipps!

Celebrating Tartan Day in Canada

The date of April 6th was chosen to celebrate the role of the independent Scots who helped to discover, conquer, explore, settle and build the country now called Canada.

The Scottish Studies Foundation is a charitable organization dedicated to actively supporting the Scottish Studies Program at the University of Guelph, established in 1966, and the eventual establishment of a Chair of Scottish Studies. The Foundation also plans to work with other universities across Canada to create and develop similar programs for the preservation of Canada's Scottish heritage. The Scottish Studies Society hosts an annual Tartan Day Celebration Dinner in April, with the proceeds being donated to the Scottish Studies Foundation. During this major fund-raising event, which has been held in Toronto since 1993, a prominent man or woman is honoured as Scot of the Year.

Posted by: gwenlee 10-Apr-2008, 08:43 AM
scotborn-I read the article along with all of the comments. Although I am one who claims a Scottish/Irish heritage I in no way would ever try to pass off being Scottish or Irish, that would be saying I am a citizen of Scotland or Ireland. However I am an American whos family culture has been greatly influenced by those two countries. I look at Tartan Day as a way to celebrate those whos ideas help found this country and to honor those who for what ever reason ended up on foreign soil. If you know the history many died on their way here and then the hardships suffered after they got here was many.

It is wrong to say I am Scottish when I am not. It is right to celebrate your heritage. Besides what is wrong with celebrating the values and culture? I am a card carry member of the Royal Scottish Country Dancers. The society has branches all over the world the men wear kilts and women wear a tartan. and a lot of dancers have absolutely no Scottish ancestry. Do you find offense to someone from Japan, South America, or Africa enjoying SCD? I guess part of my point is, we should never forget where we come from or the sacrifices made by all those who came here. All which makes me what I am, an American, and I am thankful for those who came here and I am a result of their hard work and dreams.

Posted by: UlsterScotNutt 11-Apr-2008, 12:21 PM
QUOTE (scotborn @ 06-Apr-2008, 08:36 AM)
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/andrew_mickel/2008/04/taunted_by_tartan.html

There has been discussions on this forum regarding the views of irish/scots in ireland and scotland and I came across this articlethat some people may find interesting.

"you start seriously questioning what may be missing from national identities elsewhere that they feel the need to nick other people's."

"people try so brazenly to misappropriate your identity"

"Caricaturing and stealing someone else's national heritage doesn't just make a mockery of their culture; it unnecessarily disregards your own."

And I wonder what it is in this individuals' character that would make him so insecure, selfish and condescending to accuse others of nickery, brazenness, malfeasance, theft and such self importance to assume the knowing of anothers needs and regards.

I am not impressed with his argument. This argument is just as wrong as those who may claim to BE Irish or Scottish because of gggggggggrandpa.

Now lets define "BE".

We may all feel a need to teach others, I know I do, and I think the discussion of Irish and Scottish, what it means, to self and others , is important. Others, scotborn in particular, in this forum have done a better job of expressing the views that I think the author was trying to impress.

Posted by: UlsterScotNutt 11-Apr-2008, 12:42 PM
Oh , and while I'm on a tear, The Irish and Scottish or any other peoples should actually take great pride in those that would, nick, misappropriate, steal, etc their identity, culture, heritage. It was their ancestors compatriots that left their land, brought themselves, their culture, heritage, identity, set up shop in the US,CA, AU, fill in the blank, and proceeded to instill this in their new environment and their scions . This understanding of what it means to be the offspring of these people is locked in time at that moment of the ancestors leaving and then evolved in its new environment. For those offended by this reality, I say you need to get a broader understanding of what and where it is coming from and for those scions to understand the auld country did not stand still in time.

Posted by: Lady of Avalon 11-Apr-2008, 12:54 PM
QUOTE (UlsterScotNutt @ 11-Apr-2008, 02:42 PM)

It was their ancestors compatriots that left their land, brought themselves, their culture, heritage, identity, set up shop in the US,CA, AU, fill in the blank, and proceeded to instill this in their new environment and their scions .

So very true Ulster I agree and this is what Miss Fraser stated here below and if you read the last phrase it says it all and I quote:" If anything,these expatriates have held onto their Scottishness more enthusiastically than Scots living in Scotland." thumbs_up.gif LOA



(Scots have been leaving home for hundreds of years. While the population of Scotland is around five million, it is estimated that there are many more millions of people with some Scottish ancestry, worldwide. Wherever they went, Scots adapted to their new country but seldom forgot their heritage. If anything, these expatriates have held onto their Scottishness more enthusiastically than Scots living in Scotland.)

Posted by: scotborn 13-Apr-2008, 09:17 AM
QUOTE (Lady of Avalon @ 11-Apr-2008, 01:54 PM)
QUOTE (UlsterScotNutt @ 11-Apr-2008, 02:42 PM)

It was their ancestors compatriots that left their land, brought themselves, their culture, heritage, identity, set up shop in the US,CA, AU, fill in the blank, and proceeded to instill this in their new environment and their scions .

So very true Ulster I agree and this is what Miss Fraser stated here below and if you read the last phrase it says it all and I quote:" If anything,these expatriates have held onto their Scottishness more enthusiastically than Scots living in Scotland." thumbsup.gif LOA



(Scots have been leaving home for hundreds of years. While the population of Scotland is around five million, it is estimated that there are many more millions of people with some Scottish ancestry, worldwide. Wherever they went, Scots adapted to their new country but seldom forgot their heritage. If anything, these expatriates have held onto their Scottishness more enthusiastically than Scots living in Scotland.)

lady of avalon could you explain how 2 - 5th generation immigrants have held on to their 'scottishness' more so than the scots. ?


Posted by: scotborn 13-Apr-2008, 09:21 AM
the vast majority of americans who claim scottish ancestry (along with the many other lines of foreign ancestry they have) had ancestors that very likely did not wear kilts, attend highland games or were part of a clan.

The desendants of scots in america have not retained their scottishness better than the scots in scotland, they have created an american culture of emphasizing their perception of what scottish culture is. While I dont view this is a bad or good thing. You cannot say that values of scottishness they cherish are the values of scots today, or the values of scots living in scotland 100, 200 etc years ago.

Posted by: oldraven 13-Apr-2008, 10:06 AM
QUOTE (UlsterScotNutt @ 11-Apr-2008, 11:42 AM)
The Irish and Scottish, or any other peoples, should take great pride in those that would nick, misappropriate, steal, etc their identity, culture, heritage. It was their ancestors compatriots that left their land, brought themselves, their culture, heritage, identity, set up shop in the US,CA, AU, fill in the blank, and proceeded to instill this in their new environment and their scions. This understanding of what it means to be the offspring of these people is locked in time at that moment of the ancestors leaving and then evolved in its new environment. For those offended by this reality, I say you need to get a broader understanding of what and where it is coming from and for those scions to understand the auld country did not stand still in time.

-Fred McNutt

That sounds like a new Mantra. I really don't think anyone could improve upon that statement.

Posted by: oldraven 13-Apr-2008, 10:21 AM
QUOTE (Lady of Avalon @ 11-Apr-2008, 11:54 AM)
(Scots have been leaving home for hundreds of years. While the population of Scotland is around five million, it is estimated that there are many more millions of people with some Scottish ancestry, worldwide. Wherever they went, Scots adapted to their new country but seldom forgot their heritage. If anything, these expatriates have held onto their Scottishness more enthusiastically than Scots living in Scotland.)

An odd new dimension of this is the way history is repeating itself here in America. Since Nova Scotia really became established, it has seen its people leave for other places in the US and Canada for a similar sense of opportunity the First immigrants from Europe felt when they set out. The population of Nova Scotia remains sparse, despite its location and relation to history. There are always children being born into large (though not as large as before) families, and lots of students in the Universities. But once the call of success hits their ears, they pack up and follow the buck. I did it. My family has done it. My preceding generations all did it.

But I was a kid from Nova Scotia when I left. When I got back, I was a long lost Nova Scotian, and my feet are anchored from here on. Something changes you when you're cut off from everything you took for granted. These pieces of our culture go from being invisible to being desperately absent.

Posted by: Lady of Avalon 13-Apr-2008, 03:42 PM
QUOTE (scotborn @ 13-Apr-2008, 11:17 AM)
QUOTE (Lady of Avalon @ 11-Apr-2008, 01:54 PM)
QUOTE (UlsterScotNutt @ 11-Apr-2008, 02:42 PM)

It was their ancestors compatriots that left their land, brought themselves, their culture, heritage, identity, set up shop in the US,CA, AU, fill in the blank, and proceeded to instill this in their new environment and their scions .

So very true Ulster I agree and this is what Miss Fraser stated here below and if you read the last phrase it says it all and I quote:" If anything,these expatriates have held onto their Scottishness more enthusiastically than Scots living in Scotland." thumbs_up.gif LOA



(Scots have been leaving home for hundreds of years. While the population of Scotland is around five million, it is estimated that there are many more millions of people with some Scottish ancestry, worldwide. Wherever they went, Scots adapted to their new country but seldom forgot their heritage. If anything, these expatriates have held onto their Scottishness more enthusiastically than Scots living in Scotland.)

lady of avalon could you explain how 2 - 5th generation immigrants have held on to their 'scottishness' more so than the scots. ?

scotborn,
I cannot explain a comment made by somebody else but you may write to Miss Fraser if you like. However I agree in what she is stating in the article which I think you probably did not read all the way through otherwise you woudn't ask the question. Because in the article it explains her comment.

I have been all over Nova Scotia many times and talk with many people from different places. A lot of Nova Scotian people from Cape Breton actually speak Gaelic and kids are being taught the language in schools as well. They are teaching their ancestors's culture in schools which unfortunately in Scotland,gaelic is just starting now.
Although i was only "a tourist" in your beautiful country while there i did not just pass through and come back saying that I've seen Scotland,no.
I've stayed with your countrymen and ate and drank and talk with them. Of course,as you move your way up the Highlands one could very clearly see that they have kept a certain Scottishness about them.

One of our host while there wrote something very comprehensive about your country and culture.It goes like this.

«My Dear Guests,
From all over the world you come to look at our countryside, to visit our cities, towns & villages and to see how we Scots live.
How much of you enjoy your stay in Scotland depends partially on the attitude you bring with you, partly of luck-(for instance the weather!) and of course, to a large extent it rests with ourselves as a Host Nation.
To our visitors we say:"Welcome to our Country." Scotland is small, but of infinite variety.She cannot be "done" in a week. The faster & farther you travel, the less you will see. If you come looking for a land of tartan, clans & bagpipes, you will be disappointed. That image of Scotland is false and irrelevant. There is much,much more to our country than that.
We want to make our visitors feel at home.Personal contacts,however brief, often make or mar a holiday.
Finally,I do hope that all visitors to our shores this summer will feel welcome, not for their money, but for themselves. Take back happy memories of your stay here!!»


That little underline part says it all.And she was right because yes there is much much more but also what has been the strongest part of the Scottish pride is practically non existant anymore.

This is in part what it means when one like Miss Fraser states that Scottishness is more celebrated here than in Scotland,I think.
And I think that's what Tartan Day is all about a celebration of one's heritage.LOA

Posted by: scotborn 14-Apr-2008, 09:56 AM
lady of avalon I think we will have to agree to disagree.

Posted by: UlsterScotNutt 14-Apr-2008, 10:30 AM
QUOTE (scotborn @ 13-Apr-2008, 10:21 AM)
the vast majority of americans who claim scottish ancestry (along with the many other lines of foreign ancestry they have) had ancestors that very likely did not wear kilts, attend highland games or were part of a clan.

The desendants of scots in america have not retained their scottishness better than the scots in scotland, they have created an american culture of emphasizing their perception of what scottish culture is. While I dont view this is a bad or good thing. You cannot say that values of scottishness they cherish are the values of scots today, or the values of scots living in scotland 100, 200 etc years ago.

I would agree with this.

I think we are approaching this from quite a variety of different disciplines. Sentimental, cultural, fantastical, socielogical, political, etc, you get the idea.

Posted by: oldraven 14-Apr-2008, 10:43 AM
QUOTE (scotborn @ 14-Apr-2008, 08:56 AM)
lady of avalon I think we will have to agree to disagree.

I think the main difference lies with past tense vs. present tense. And to say we who concentrate on Scotland of the past are more Scottish than the Scottish is beyond ridiculous. We celebrate the Scotland our ancestors brought with them (which was quite a while ago). Those ways of life may be next to dead in modern Scotland, just as fur trading is in Canada, but the old country will always be the most Scottish place on earth, just as I will live in the most Canadian place on earth.

Now, who clings to the Scotland of old more is a discussion worth having. Tartan day isn't about celebrating modern Scotland, there is no doubt. But Tartans and pipes and kilts are very much a rich part of Scotland's history. Not to say they invented any one of those things, but you cannot deny that the people embraced them all, these modern symbols of Auld Scotland. The idea of the 'clan' tartan was a commercial exercise, but it was also a very successful one. When our ancestors came here, these symbols were very much a part of the culture. History in my book is the same as history in yours.

Posted by: UlsterScotNutt 14-Apr-2008, 01:29 PM
Lets see, A little history on Celtic. I know this topic is in several different forums under similar headings. And I do mean a very little.

Celtic is basically 3 different peoples, and the 3 were pre-Roman, the Gaels, a Celtic group who came from the continent and overtook all of the island of Britain, circa 500bc, the Britons, another Celtic group, about the same time ,who pushed the Gaels north to Scotland and west into Wales and the Scots of Ireland. Many smaller tribes did also exist within the 3 main groupings.
Then we have Scotland, Highlanders and Lowlanders. The Highlanders of centuries past are most likely overwhelmingly Celtic in ancestry. The Lowlanders are a much more diverse ancestry in the centuries past due to geography.
So, for Scottish you have aboriginal stone age peoples up to and including Pict and post-Pict then Gaels and Britons, the Celtic portion. Then a thousand years of Roman presence added the Romans themselves, the Teutonic Angles and Saxons, the Saxons dominating the eastern Lowlands for centuries, the Scots of Ireland, another Celtic group( from where Scotland gets its name) and the Norse, to include the Danes here as well, mostly adventurers and plunderers but did settle along with Normans, who pushed north after dealing with England and King David of Scotland invited many more. Then add Flemish traders (Franks and Celtic-Germanic Gauls) settling in the eastern lowlands and then the English of a mixed bag of Teutonic and Celtic background along with I'm sure many more.

That is my one paragraph 7,000BC to 1800AD history from were I'm sure most of the people are getting there "identities" from.

This makes being Celtic, Irish ( which I didn't get into), Scottish quite a complicated matter.

Again, I would mention that people discuss their understanding of what it means to BE Celtic, Irish or Scottish in social, cultural, mythological, political and in historical contexts. I would also add the literary in such genres like romantic, mythical, fantastical, popular, entertainment and pseudo-historical.

This is by no means comprehensive. I would just hope this was informative for the majority.

Posted by: Lady of Avalon 14-Apr-2008, 06:07 PM
QUOTE (scotborn @ 14-Apr-2008, 11:56 AM)
lady of avalon I think we will have to agree to disagree.

Hi scotborn,
You're in title of your opinion and I always respect others opinions.
However, I like you would ask that you explain your disagreement by explaining your opinion not just simply say that "we will have to agree to disagree".

All that I am trying to say here is that the Tartan Day is a celebration of what was important to the scottish culture which today like mine as a french canadian people are loosing bit by bit their sense of culture.

Thank you all the same for your short reply.LOA

Posted by: YDNAR1B1 14-Apr-2008, 11:00 PM
So where did the "Celts" come from? For a long time, historians believed that the Celtic people of the British Isles were descendants of a tribe of Indo-Europeans who settled in central Europe several thousand years ago. The Romans called them the Gauls, but 18th century scholars adopted the term "Celts" from the ancient Greek name Keltoi. According to the traditional theory, the Celtic tribes began a period of expansion and military conquest about 3,000 to 5,000 years ago, and eventually conquered much of western Europe and the British Isles. What happened to the "native" western Europeans (the pre-Indo-Europeans) has been an enduring mystery. There are the Basques in Spain. There are also stories about mysterious tribes still living in Britain at the time of the Romans. Julius Caesar, who led the Roman invasion of Britain in 55 B.C., wrote that the "interior portion of Britain is inhabited by those of whom they say it is handed down by tradition that they were born on the island itself; the maritime portion by those who passed over from the country of the Belgae [Belgium] for purpose of plunder and making war…and having waged war, continued there and began to cultivate the lands." (De Bello Gallico, Book 5, sec.12.) The Belgae were a Celtic people who were skilled in metal-working and agriculture; the native Britons, according to Caeser, "do not sow corn [wheat], but live on milk and flesh, and are clad with skins." (Id., sec.14.)

Some time after the arrival of the Celts, the "native" Britons disappeared off the face of the earth. They left behind pottery, burial mounds, and some amazing archeaological relics like Stonehenge, but little else—or so it seemed. Genetic studies are now re-writing this history. Celtic people such as the Welsh and Irish speak Indo-European languages, but their Y-DNA is similar to that of the Basques. In other words, the Welsh and Irish appear to be more closely related to the non-Indo-European Basques than they are to Indo-European groups elsewhere in northern Europe, such as Germans and Scandinavians. This does not mean that the Basques were direct ancestors of the Celts or visa versa. It simply suggests that the Basques and the Celts have a common origin dating back many thousands of years to pre-historic western Europe, before the arrival of Indo-European tribes. Only the Basques managed to keep their ancestral language alive to the present day. In the British Isles and elsewhere, the people lost their original languages, probably as a result of trade, military conquest, and intermarriage with Indo-Europeans. According to many scholars, there is no evidence of a Celtic military invasion leading to total population replacement in the British Isles. There were probably periods of warfare, but other times when people traveled and traded peacefully. The ancient Britons may simply have adapted and evolved, and in the process, they became the people we know as "Celts."

Posted by: oldraven 15-Apr-2008, 05:36 AM
Whoa! I'm all for being as informative as you possibly can be, but you should at least try to comment on the topic. wink.gif That post would be very much at home in many other threads (I can think of a few in 'The Celts' forum). Even when derailing, a poster should try to hold onto the original topic in some way.

As for what you've written there, a great way for anyone to understand how all of these things unfolded in a linear timeline is to pick up a book called The Illustrated Atlas of The Celtic World.

So, are we to forget our Island Celt heritage and look farther back to the Indo-Europeans? No. The cultures we hold to are the ones that were alive when our ancestors were all but forced out (more recently the clearances) of their homeland and drawn to this new land of wealth and opportunity. Those ideals were passed down here whilst the nations that inspired them moved on and evolved their cultures with modern times.

So anyone who has the gall (Gaul? wink.gif ) to say that this is not my culture, because I've never been the the place where the traditions originated, needs a sobering bout of perspective. It really is the only culture I've ever known.

Posted by: scotborn 15-Apr-2008, 06:29 AM
QUOTE (Lady of Avalon @ 14-Apr-2008, 07:07 PM)
Hi scotborn,
You're in title of your opinion and I always respect others opinions.
However, I like you would ask that you explain your disagreement by explaining your opinion not just simply say that "we will have to agree to disagree".

All that I am trying to say here is that the Tartan Day is a celebration of what was important to the scottish culture which today like mine as a french canadian people are loosing bit by bit their sense of culture.

Thank you all the same for your short reply.LOA

ladyofavalon, I do not see nor have I experianced canadians or more specifically nova scotians, to display relevant scots culture. Tartan day is a canadian/american day celebrating a foreign point of view on the culture of scotland. This is not a bad thing. however, having visited canada I can say that canadians and americans have very opposite values to the scots and irish.

I have met "scottish" canadians and when they were in a room with native scots they had no clue about our real indigenous culture. They had no clue what we were talking about. They did not understand our point of view, beliefs and ... yes .... culture.

culture is something lived in everyday, it is not a one day a year interpretation of a culture developed and evolved three thousand miles away that has never been even visited let alone lived in. Nor can culture be understand or experianced from being read in a book. Many people say that culture has been passed through them from generation to generation. This I believe is bollocks, culture becomes watered down and ceases to exist when you dont live in that cultures host countries with the people that defines that culture. I have irish ancestors half of my family are irish and still live in ireland. I have visited ireland several times, and I do not see any aspects of my life that are entertwined with irish culture. Nor can I claim to understand irish culture.

any way ladyofavalon I hope this answer suffices, if not then please ask me any questions or tel me if you disagree

thanks



Posted by: oldraven 15-Apr-2008, 06:58 AM
Again, Scotborn, you're talking modern culture.

And these cultural references ARE lived every day by many people. The music, the entire reason any of us are here, is the best example of this. Even it has evolved on this side of the Atlantic, but we all know where it came from. It's what's played on the local radio, community centres, and living rooms. I still don't consider myself Scottish, but I know my roots, and I know that much of the communities I have lived in all my life have various bits of the culture that has been passed down through the generations. If your remaining references to this culture were from two or three hundred years ago, of course it won't resemble the modern culture. Nova Scotian culture of today would be unrecognisable to a Nova Scotian of 100+ years ago. But trace signs and traditions of the old ways of life would still show through here and there.

No one here, that I can see, is claiming to have any connection to the Scotland of today. But rest assured, many of us got our cultural references from our own people and daily life, not from movies like Braveheart. Step dancing classes weren't once a year, they were every week, and we play our music every time we have a chance to do so (and I'm not talking about pressing play).

Posted by: gwenlee 15-Apr-2008, 07:52 AM
Scotborn, perhaps you are overlooking the reason for Tartan Day and this whole pride of our origins. For one those of Scottish/Scot-Irish ancestry, ranks number 8 as an ethnic group here in the US. I can't speak for all but all most of us only want to honor and acknowledge the contributions that those people made. Yes it is true that we have a watered down version of culture, but lets face it Scotlands culture today probably doesn't represent the culture of the past either. Cultures evolved. I have heard from several of my Scottish friends that they see more kilts worn here in North America than they see in their homeland, but they don't take offense. Take offense but educate those who incorrectly say they are Scottish when it is only there ancestry. I don't know how others feel but I can't help but think that my ancestor would be happy that we are remembering them in some way. I know I have ancestors that would have rathered stayed across the pond but for political reason they were put on the North American shores. They worked hard and instilled values that now are a part of my family. So here I am a proud American who can say that I am proud of those who came before me and you Scotborn should be proud that you come from a country that had such an influence on us here in the USA.

Posted by: scotborn 15-Apr-2008, 08:24 AM
QUOTE (gwenlee @ 15-Apr-2008, 08:52 AM)
Scotborn, perhaps you are overlooking the reason for Tartan Day and this whole pride of our origins. For one those of Scottish/Scot-Irish ancestry, ranks number 8 as an ethnic group here in the US. I can't speak for all but all most of us only want to honor and acknowledge the contributions that those people made. Yes it is true that we have a watered down version of culture, but lets face it Scotlands culture today probably doesn't represent the culture of the past either. Cultures evolved. I have heard from several of my Scottish friends that they see more kilts worn here in North America than they see in their homeland, but they don't take offense. Take offense but educate those who incorrectly say they are Scottish when it is only there ancestry. I don't know how others feel but I can't help but think that my ancestor would be happy that we are remembering them in some way. I know I have ancestors that would have rathered stayed across the pond but for political reason they were put on the North American shores. They worked hard and instilled values that now are a part of my family. So here I am a proud American who can say that I am proud of those who came before me and you Scotborn should be proud that you come from a country that had such an influence on us here in the USA.

gwen, if I may clear a few things up.

I did not say america has or is a version of watered down culture. On the contrary i have been to several locations in america and I find american culture as unique as anywhere in europe, I said that their definition of scottish culture is watered down.

I am aware that scotlands current culture is differant from its past, I emphazized this in my previous post.

It is indeed true that kilts are worn far more in america, than in scotland. This is irrelevant to the point I was making.

I can understand taking interest in your ancestors, I cannot understand taking specific interest in only one part of an americans heritage. The vast, vast majority of americans with scots heritage of many more ancestors who are not scottish i.e german, french, english etc.

scotland has also had no larger impact on americanl/canada than any other european nation. one of the countries denied the history they played in americas founding is england. I constantly hear americas claim that the founding father were predominantyl scottish, this is only part true they were also descended from the english/welsh/germans et. etc.

Posted by: gwenlee 15-Apr-2008, 09:58 AM
QUOTE (scotborn @ 15-Apr-2008, 10:24 AM)
gwen, if I may clear a few things up.

I did not say america has or is a version of watered down culture. On the contrary i have been to several locations in america and I find american culture as unique as anywhere in europe, I said that their definition of scottish culture is watered down.

I am aware that scotlands current culture is differant from its past, I emphazized this in my previous post.

It is indeed true that kilts are worn far more in america, than in scotland. This is irrelevant to the point I was making.

I can understand taking interest in your ancestors, I cannot understand taking specific interest in only one part of an americans heritage. The vast, vast majority of americans with scots heritage of many more ancestors who are not scottish i.e german, french, english etc.

scotland has also had no larger impact on americanl/canada than any other european nation. one of the countries denied the history they played in americas founding is england. I constantly hear americas claim that the founding father were predominantyl scottish, this is only part true they were also descended from the english/welsh/germans et. etc.


Well Scotborn I guess you have to be one that is a decendent of those misplaced Scots to understand. I am sure there are those in Scotland who are pleased that there are those outside of Scotland who have an interest in keeping the past and culture alive. I know at this time Scotland is planning a gathering and I know a lot of us here are getting a lot of info about it. www.thegathering2009.com.

Posted by: oldraven 15-Apr-2008, 10:36 AM
QUOTE (scotborn @ 15-Apr-2008, 07:24 AM)
I can understand taking interest in your ancestors, I cannot understand taking specific interest in only one part of an americans heritage. The vast, vast majority of americans with scots heritage of many more ancestors who are not scottish i.e german, french, english etc.

scotland has also had no larger impact on americanl/canada than any other european nation. one of the countries denied the history they played in americas founding is england. I constantly hear americas claim that the founding father were predominantyl scottish, this is only part true they were also descended from the english/welsh/germans et. etc.

Two very good points. I know that when someone asks me 'What I am', I say Canadian (Nova Scotian, depending on who's asking). They roll their eyes and I ask if they want to know who I descend from. The answer is always the same. English, Scottish, Irish and German, with a little bit of French and Scandinavian for spice. But overall, who I see as my ancestors are the Celts. Not only does it cover the majority of my heredity, but they are the people who I identify with. Don't read too much into the word 'identify' please. wink.gif

As for who has had a greater influence on our respective Nations, that depends on where. I feel that the Ukraine has had a very strong influence on the western Prairie Provinces, Alberta in particular. England on Ontario and B.C. (very much in B.C.). Take a guess at where Nova Scotia or Quebec gather their influences from. And it even gets down to areas within provinces, as there are large Irish communities in Newfoundland and Cape Breton.

It really is something that can not be understood unless you were raised in a nation that is a result of a culmination of others. It's what Multi-cultural societies do We identify with our origins. We also celebrate Ramadan, in Canada. Well, not all of us, but the whole Nation doesn't celebrate Tartan Day, either. We relate to one another in many ways, and one very common way is by where our 'families' came from.

Posted by: scotborn 15-Apr-2008, 12:00 PM
I soppose you have to be a descendant to understand, anyway thanks for explaining to me.

Posted by: Lady of Avalon 15-Apr-2008, 06:22 PM
QUOTE (scotborn @ 15-Apr-2008, 08:29 AM)
QUOTE (Lady of Avalon @ 14-Apr-2008, 07:07 PM)
Hi scotborn,
You're in title of your opinion and I always respect others opinions.
However, I like you would ask that you explain your disagreement by explaining your opinion not just simply say that "we will have to agree to disagree".

All that I am trying to say here is that the Tartan Day is a celebration of what was important to the scottish culture which today like mine as a french canadian people are loosing bit by bit their sense of culture.

Thank you all the same for your short reply.LOA

ladyofavalon, I do not see nor have I experianced canadians or more specifically nova scotians, to display relevant scots culture. Tartan day is a canadian/american day celebrating a foreign point of view on the culture of scotland. This is not a bad thing. however, having visited canada I can say that canadians and americans have very opposite values to the scots and irish.

I have met "scottish" canadians and when they were in a room with native scots they had no clue about our real indigenous culture. They had no clue what we were talking about. They did not understand our point of view, beliefs and ... yes .... culture.

culture is something lived in everyday, it is not a one day a year interpretation of a culture developed and evolved three thousand miles away that has never been even visited let alone lived in. Nor can culture be understand or experianced from being read in a book. Many people say that culture has been passed through them from generation to generation. This I believe is bollocks, culture becomes watered down and ceases to exist when you dont live in that cultures host countries with the people that defines that culture. I have irish ancestors half of my family are irish and still live in ireland. I have visited ireland several times, and I do not see any aspects of my life that are entertwined with irish culture. Nor can I claim to understand irish culture.

any way ladyofavalon I hope this answer suffices, if not then please ask me any questions or tel me if you disagree

thanks

My dear friend scotborn,

In all honesty it is not the fact to "agree or disagree" here that we are talking about it is just a celebration of heritage.

Understand that the Americas like oldraven mention in one of his replies that we are countries with a variety of people and all kinds of celebration are celebrated all over the country and everybodies are invited.

You are a very lucky person to know and have origins and heritage you can relate to. I find it one of the great privilege in life,one that I don't have.
This is one privilege that I tought my husband to be aware of his origins and heritage that before we met did not even acknowledge. I think it's very important to know your roots and the meaning of it.

So, like I said to you scotborn you are in title of your opinion and others are too.
And I am sorry that you've met some canadians with scottish descendance that had no knowledge of your wonderful culture but don't forget some people even here don't know about our own culture unfortunately.But like gwenlee said instead of being insulted or feel humiliated,educate the ones that are interested in learning about yours ways. This is called being open minded.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me scotborn and good luck! smile.gif LOA

Posted by: UlsterScotNutt 16-Apr-2008, 11:01 AM
"we are talking about it is just a celebration of heritage"

My Lady of Avalon, A celebration it is, good line.

Posted by: oldraven 16-Apr-2008, 11:48 AM
QUOTE (scotborn @ 15-Apr-2008, 11:00 AM)
I soppose you have to be a descendant to understand, anyway thanks for explaining to me.

Not a problem, Scotborn. A point of view from the other side, so to speak, is always welcome, whether we agree or not. beer_mug.gif::thumbsup

Posted by: UlsterScotNutt 17-Apr-2008, 08:13 AM
QUOTE (scotborn @ 15-Apr-2008, 09:24 AM)
gwen, if I may clear a few things up.

I did not say america has or is a version of watered down culture. On the contrary i have been to several locations in america and I find american culture as unique as anywhere in europe, I said that their definition of scottish culture is watered down.

I am aware that scotlands current culture is differant from its past, I emphazized this in my previous post.

It is indeed true that kilts are worn far more in america, than in scotland. This is irrelevant to the point I was making.

I can understand taking interest in your ancestors, I cannot understand taking specific interest in only one part of an americans heritage. The vast, vast majority of americans with scots heritage of many more ancestors who are not scottish i.e german, french, english etc.

scotland has also had no larger impact on americanl/canada than any other european nation. one of the countries denied the history they played in americas founding is england. I constantly hear americas claim that the founding father were predominantyl scottish, this is only part true they were also descended from the english/welsh/germans et. etc.

scotborn, I would like to jump in on your answer to gwenlee.

You are seeing a "specific interest in only one part of an americans heritage" because you are in the very specific forum for that purpose. I don't mean that to sound condescending in any way. But were else will you find such an appropriate site to "celebrate the heritage". Americans across the board celebrate a wide variety of heritages and partake in them at all different levels. We love to recognise and acknowledge who and from wence we came and are. I personally would love to see even more diversity of celebration.
I mentioned once before my sister celebrats our hispanic culture more than I do and I my Scots-Irish American side. This by no means divides, denies, degrades, or disrespects each of ours "other heritage" . Each vibrates to a different tune. I like green feathers and she likes red feathers. Life still comes to us all the same.

To think, like the author of the article does, that celebrating a heritage somehow is denigrating because it demeans the celebrant and/or the celebrated is wrong.

Now, to deny Scotland had a less than a very important role in founding this nation is a mistruth. The history of Scotland records tens of thousands of Lowlander Scots leaving for Ireland and the Americas in the 17th century. This was a very very formative time in the Americas. They were THE pioneer stock of the Americas. They were the first families to cross many rivers and mountains. They were truly the first to strike out in numbers from the urban centers of settlement. They were THE bulwark of the American Revolution and the truly first radicals in American politics.

Then came 200,000 Scots-Irish in the 18th century. Smack in the middle of the picture and pretty much all at once in the foundation historical timeline. They were all descendents of Scottish ancestry. They most definitely were predominate. They dominated the immigration flow, they dominated the settlement and growth of the colonies, they dominated the politics popular. Many an Englishmen both political and military commented on the Scots-Irish Presbyterian being THE reason for Revolution in the colonies. This is factual history. Yes, there were and are those Welsh/German/French/Polish/African/Dutch in the mix, ALL serving a great and needed purpose.

UlsterScotNutt

Posted by: Camac 17-Apr-2008, 01:09 PM
Scotborn;

If I may, I suggest that you read Arthur Hermans' book, How the Scots Invented the Modern World, The true story of how Western Europe's poorest Nation created our world and everything in it. The impact of the Scots on Canada far outweighs that of any other ethnic group in the Country. It was a Scots Regiment that defeated the French at Quebec. Most of the explorers who opened up the west and the north were Scots trappers and traders working for the Hudson Bay Company. The Metis Nation of western Canada are all decendents from either Scots or French trappers who married Native people. Our first Prime Minister Sir John A. Macdonald and the majority of the Fathers of ConFederation were Scots. Canada's longest sitting P.M. was William Lyon MacKenzie King. Granted there were other contributions from other peoples but their impact does not come anywhere near that of the Scots. Hell a Scots led one of Canadas two rebellions, William MacKenzie. He had to seek assylum in the States or be hung. The very town I live in was founded by a Scot named Chisholm and there are Quebecois named MacArthur. Our best (in my opinion) P.M was Pierre Elliott Trudeau half French half Scot.

Posted by: scotborn 18-Apr-2008, 07:18 AM
thanks for the posts everyone, I have enjoyed talking about this subject and I have hope everyone has learned from me as I have them. And yeah I have heard ot the book "the modern scots..." , I may look it up sometime.

Posted by: CelticQueenCelticLord 02-Feb-2009, 11:24 PM
This is t he first time I have heard this arguement. I was always taught that your heritage is who you are. I am kind of getting idea from here that if you were not born in Scotland or Ireland then you are neither. To me, I am Scott/Irish even if it is by decent. My Grandfather was first generation here. He didnt come here because that was his life long dream or a want, he came here because of his work. He remained in that work until he retired. I feel as much a Scott or Irish as someone born there even though I was born here. I dont have anything else in me except the English my father was and he does not claim it because he was raised German. Because of my Grandfather my Dad feels more Scott than anything else anyway.
So, please clarify all of this. Just because I was not born there, dont live there does not mean I am not a Scott. I guess it is all of what is in your heart. I dont mean to offend anyone either.

Posted by: oldraven 11-Mar-2009, 02:30 PM
As I see it, what you 'are' is entirely dependant on where you hold citizenship. Your identity is a mixture of that and where you come from.

Posted by: Camac 11-Mar-2009, 02:49 PM
oldraven;

I am a Canadian Citizen born in Scotland of Scottish Parents. My Mother and I came to Canada with my stepdad in 1947. By up bringing I am more Canadian than Scot but no one including the Creator can take from me the fact that I am a born Scot with the blood of the Campbells running through my veins. I love my heritage but to be totally honest Canada is my true Love it is my HOME.


Camac.

Posted by: glaswegian 11-Mar-2009, 03:28 PM
QUOTE (CelticQueenCelticLord @ 03-Feb-2009, 12:24 AM)
This is t he first time I have heard this arguement. I was always taught that your heritage is who you are. I am kind of getting idea from here that if you were not born in Scotland or Ireland then you are neither. To me, I am Scott/Irish even if it is by decent. My Grandfather was first generation here. He didnt come here because that was his life long dream or a want, he came here because of his work. He remained in that work until he retired. I feel as much a Scott or Irish as someone born there even though I was born here. I dont have anything else in me except the English my father was and he does not claim it because he was raised German. Because of my Grandfather my Dad feels more Scott than anything else anyway.
So, please clarify all of this. Just because I was not born there, dont live there does not mean I am not a Scott. I guess it is all of what is in your heart. I dont mean to offend anyone either.

You are not scottish and how can you feel scottish if you were never born and raised here.

You were entirelly shaped by where you were brought up and where you live. Where do you people get the audacity to call yourselves scots when you are not and I know for a fact that the scots do not accept you as scottish, you are a foreigner.

The scots are a culture of people, you need to be raised in the culture and live in it every day for it to create who you are. and By culture I dont mean bagpipes and burns night, that is tradition not culture.

you cannot feel scottish because you dont know what it means to be scottish, other than over the top sentemental nonsense which mosts scots I know cringe at.

you say its in you heart it is not, I am not scottish because I choose to be scottish, I am not scottish because I choose to be I have no power over that, I am scottish by matter of intangible accident and circumstance, to say I am anything else would be lying to myself.

and its spelt scot not scott.

Posted by: oldraven 12-Mar-2009, 05:32 AM
To be fair to her, Scotborn, her being a Scot is a fantasy. Her seeing herself as a Scot is cultural. Don't drift on me now, I've got a point. wink.gif

Living in what was once a colony, and still is receiving immigrants daily, lends itself to referencing yourself to your heritage. Go anywhere in Canada or the US, and when most people ask you your name, and you say Reeves, or MacLean, they say "That's English/Scottish, right?" An Asian born in Canada is still seen as an Asian. I'm willing to bet it's not that different in the UK, since they are visible minorities, no matter how long they've lived there. This is racial, if not entirely Ethnic. Being born into this mix, a person isn't simply Canadian/American, by the culture we have of identifying one another.

Living in Scotland, you can no doubt assume that the average white guy walking past is a Scot. 9 times out of 10 you'll be right. Do the same here, and yes, you can assume they're Canadian, but that's not entirely how people here think. The history we are taught talks about nations from all over the world having their own parts in shaping the Country. Events involving so many different peoples, but all identified as French, English, Breton, Irish, Scot., Ukrainian, Russian, Jewish, you name it. If you sit in a room full of random people, you don't look to the guy at your left and think "He looks Canadian". How can you even identify what a Canadian looks like. He'd look like a jigsaw puzzle. In stead, you'd look to your left and think "He looks Scandinavian". He likely wasn't born there, but we still associate one another with our origins.

It's a very dominant part of our culture. That's not to say that we actually ARE any of these things, but it's easy to see how people can come to think this way. It has nothing to do with Audacity. It's simply being a victim of a colonial culture.

Posted by: Camac 12-Mar-2009, 06:49 AM
oldraven;

You'ii get no argument from me as you hit it right on the head.



Camac.

Posted by: glaswegian 12-Mar-2009, 06:52 AM
I can understand that there are visible differances between races. However, the scots are not a race, asian is a race. When yuo refer to yourself by race it is more appropriate to say you are european.

and for the record, america is no more multicultural than britian or france etc.

I have friends who are racially asian however they are no less scottish than me, they are not racially european, but they are fully scottish. Because, there is no racial differance between a scot, englishman, irishman, german etc. what seperates us is behavioural traits, culture, community, geography etc.

Posted by: oldraven 12-Mar-2009, 07:09 AM
QUOTE (glaswegian @ 12-Mar-2009, 05:52 AM)
I can understand that there are visible differances between races. However, the scots are not a race, asian is a race. When yuo refer to yourself by race it is more appropriate to say you are european.

and for the record, america is no more multicultural than britian or france etc.

I have friends who are racially asian however they are no less scottish than me, they are not racially european, but they are fully scottish. Because, there is no racial differance between a scot, englishman, irishman, german etc. what seperates us is behavioural traits, culture, community, geography etc.

Thanks Camac.

Yes, Glaswegian, I should have said Chinese rather than Asian (Chinese immigrants have had a substantial influence on certain parts of Canada), or Swedish rather than Scandinavian, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make at all. What I was trying to say is that Colonial cultures identify themselves with their roots, because our history is taught to us with relation to these places of origin. Canadian history, as far as my family tree is concerned, only goes back to 1749. Beyond that, it's all separate European histories. We don't really have the luxury of knowing that our lines trace back to Canada in pre-history, no matter what its' name.

Like I said before, it doesn't excuse calling yourself a Scot, it just explains it.

Posted by: oldraven 12-Mar-2009, 07:15 AM
oops. I see in my second last reply that I called you Scotborn, not Glaswegian. My apologies. I got you two confused.

Posted by: Camac 12-Mar-2009, 07:29 AM
draven;;
Because we are a country of immigrants and Canada is young as far as Nationhood goes none except for the Aboriginal population can trace their family in Canada back more than 350-360 years. My ex family came to Canada in 1656 befor that you have to go to Normandy to trace them. My stepdads family came in the early 1800s before that Argyllshire. For us to have any continuity we have to relate to our origins. As I said I am a Scot, born there but I seriously doubt I could live there as it is to different from what I was raised in. I have family there about 100 and I think I met most of them when I was there 2 years ago they are a great bunch of people but we really have little in common except for Blood. One thing I got a chuckle out of was when one of them asked if I lived close to the sea. I had to tell her no the Atlantic was about 1500 miles from where I live. She looked at me and then said "away with ye" she thought I was pulling her leg.


Camac.

Posted by: oldraven 12-Mar-2009, 08:41 AM
Nice. biggrin.gif It's funny, but people around here say that all the time if they think you're pulling a fast one. Get away with yeh. It kind of mildly proves a point about little bits of culture holding on in certain regions of the new world. Common traditions, so to speak.... literally to speak.

Posted by: Camac 12-Mar-2009, 08:50 AM
oldraven;
Those common threads are what hold us to our Heritage. I find myself at times repeating some of the sayings my Mother used and she had a lot of them all in the thick Scottish Brogue.


Camac.

Posted by: glaswegian 12-Mar-2009, 09:06 AM
QUOTE (oldraven @ 12-Mar-2009, 08:09 AM)
QUOTE (glaswegian @ 12-Mar-2009, 05:52 AM)
I can understand that there are visible differances between races. However, the scots are not a race, asian is a race. When yuo refer to yourself by race it is more appropriate to say you are european.

and for the record, america is no more multicultural than britian or france etc.

I have friends who are racially asian however they are no less scottish than me, they are not racially european, but they are fully scottish. Because, there is no racial differance between a scot, englishman, irishman, german etc. what seperates us is behavioural traits, culture, community, geography etc.

Thanks Camac.

Yes, Glaswegian, I should have said Chinese rather than Asian (Chinese immigrants have had a substantial influence on certain parts of Canada), or Swedish rather than Scandinavian, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make at all. What I was trying to say is that Colonial cultures identify themselves with their roots, because our history is taught to us with relation to these places of origin. Canadian history, as far as my family tree is concerned, only goes back to 1749. Beyond that, it's all separate European histories. We don't really have the luxury of knowing that our lines trace back to Canada in pre-history, no matter what its' name.

Like I said before, it doesn't excuse calling yourself a Scot, it just explains it.

I can understand those sentiments. The age of your country has no relevance on who you are. Just because your culture is younger does not mean that it is not who you are. And I am not disputing raven that you dont know who you are, I can see from your posts you well know.

Like most scots I will have roots in scanadanvia, germania, ireland etc. etc. But I am not scandanavian, german or irish.

I actually found out that I had a not a russian great uncle. I however would find it ridiculous and inconcievable to call myself russian.

However I think we both understand where each other is coming from. and I thank you for your posts.

Posted by: glaswegian 12-Mar-2009, 09:11 AM
[/I]We don't really have the luxury of knowing that our lines trace back to Canada in pre-history, no matter what its' name.[I]

Yes your history is in europe. Just as I have family history elsewhere as opposed from scotland. But I dont look at that to see who I am because its not who I am.

being raised in a specific culture, means that culture makes you who you are and you are oblivious to it. However, a lot of people in america and canada when they reach a certain age (even first generation) simply all of a sudden say im scottish, and then they attempt to assume that identity, which is always false and misinterprated through stories, sterotypes and ignorance.

I think anyone who regards themselves as scottish, if they came to visit scotland they would realise how american and canadian they actually are.

Posted by: oldraven 12-Mar-2009, 10:34 AM
QUOTE (glaswegian @ 12-Mar-2009, 08:06 AM)
I can understand those sentiments. The age of your country has no relevance on who you are. Just because your culture is younger does not mean that it is not who you are. And I am not disputing raven that you dont know who you are, I can see from your posts you well know.

Like most scots I will have roots in scanadanvia, germania, ireland etc. etc. But I am not scandanavian, german or irish.

I actually found out that I had a not a russian great uncle. I however would find it ridiculous and inconcievable to call myself russian.

However I think we both understand where each other is coming from. and I thank you for your posts.

Not a problem at all, Glaswegian. I love the topic, as I'm a bit of an anthropology nut. Not to say I know a great deal more than most, but I love to learn and discuss it.

And yes, I'm positive I'd stick out like a sore thumb in Scotland. A very awestruck and likely lost sore thumb. wink.gif And like you, I always claim to be what I honestly am. A Nova Scotian, or New Scot (you're stuck with that one), first, and a Canadian second.

My surname is Reeves, and so you would think that I identify most with the English, but I don't. It's because of the area I've lived most of my life, which celebrates the traditions that were brought here by the immigrant Scots ages ago, and stuck. And so I identify with my mother's side more, the MacLeans. Not wholy, as I do recognise my attachment to the English side (it's the only side I've traced back to England by a couple of generations), but the only lingering signs of old England that I grew up around are the language I speak and they type of government I live under. Besides, those of NS's history who boasted of their ties to England were never very much liked here, (look up the Newcomers vs. the Oldcomers of Nova Scotia), but the hard working Scottish farmers who came here always did seem more like kin to this boy who was born to the farmer's life.

My story is a bit different from the one you mention, though admittedly not common. I grew up thinking of myself as a Canadian. Then I moved to Alberta and really knew that I was a Nova Scotian. Then the desire to hear the music of my home, which I took for granted until I didn't hear it on the radio every day, brought me here. This kindled a fire for all think Celt in me, and so I started to see myself as a Scot. But the more I learned and the more I talked to others who really took it overboard, (there was a time when many people, perhaps most of the regulars, typed in a fake brogue), the more I realised that I was playing at a fantasy. I now am simply a New Scot again, as I always have been. It's not common because most people don't want to let go of their fantasy.

My point is to not get so frustrated with the people who haven't stepped back and seen the bigger picture of who they really are, and who they pretend they are. The Brigadoons. They romanticise the idea of being a Scot, if only the holywood version, and use it as an escape. It's false, but they come by it honestly. wink.gif

Posted by: oldraven 12-Mar-2009, 10:37 AM
oops. *fire for all that is Celt in me.*

Posted by: Camac 13-Mar-2009, 06:48 AM
oldraven;

I understand you completely but I disagree with your statement that your are a Nova Scotian then a Canadian. There is to much of that type of sectarianism in Canada and it leads to far to much talk of seperation. It is my stance that we are Canadian first then whatever Province we happen to hale from. I see myself as a Canadian then an Ontarian and after that a Torontonian of Scottish birth. I have visited and worked in 32 different countries and when ask where I am from I say Canada, not Ontario.


Camac.


My Birthright is Scottish my Country Canada

Posted by: oldraven 13-Mar-2009, 08:42 AM
I'll tell you why. I have more in common with, and act more like, Nova Scotians on the whole, than I do with Canadians on the whole. And seeing NS get put on the back burner EVERY time an issue or opportunity for Canada comes along since Confederation, (did you know that Halifax was supposed to be the Capital of Canada, the country that was Howe's dream, but MacDonald and another founding father from Ontario, who's name I don't remember, came in and stole the show. Also, there was a gathering of leaders going on in PEI, to form a Maritime Union, but Central Canadian Leaders literally CRASHED the party, which stopped it from happening.), makes me root for the home team. It's not that I don't feel like a Canadian, or I don't tell people I'm Canadian. I just usually say Nova Scotia, one of Canada's maritime provinces.

It's not as though I could take or leave Canada like so many in Alberta, Quebec, and understandably Newfoundland can. I just know that calling myself Nova Scotian tells more about myself than simply saying Canadian.

I also think it's time the Maritimes stopped taking the back seat in politics, and started getting selfish. Every other province in Canada acts this way, and it's high time we did. If we had United all those years ago, and had told MacDonald to take a hike, we would be in a lot better shape. Do you know that regional development organisations were created for the Maritime provinces to help boost our local economies that were all but non-existent? Now every area code in Canada has one, including inside the city of Toronto. Imaging Toronto needing regional development. I just don't relate to all of Canada. It doesn't mean I don't love the Country any less.


Wow, this is way off topic.

Posted by: oldraven 13-Mar-2009, 08:45 AM
*imaging=imagine*
*It doesn't mean I love the Country any less.*

Posted by: Camac 13-Mar-2009, 09:07 AM
oldraven;

Yeah it is getting way off topic. To get back to the Scots culture in Can. and the US. if you get the opportunity read "An Unstoppable Force" (The Scottish Exodus to Canada) by Lucille H. Camprey. For a minority (15% of the population) out numbered by the English and Irish they did pretty good.


Camac.

Posted by: Camac 30-Mar-2009, 09:00 AM
glaswegian;

Methinks young man I owe you somewhat of an apology. I must admit when first reading your comments on what is a Scot I was really perturbed that you were insinuating that I was not a Scot. I have done a lot of thinking on this of late and I am a Scot but I am not Scottish. I was born there of Scottish parents but I was raised a Canadian and it was just recently with the posting on U-Tube of the insulting Fox News programme with Greg Gutfeld slammed that fact in my face. I am proud of and Love my Scottish Heritage but I am after all is said and done a Canadian through and through. This is my Home not Scotland. My Daughters are Canadian and although I have many many relatives in Scotland I have only blood in common with them not culture or outlook. It took me years to find myn lost Family in Dundee and I love them dearly having visited and met them but they have their lives and I have mine and really, " nary the twixt shall meet."



Camac.

Posted by: glaswegian 30-Mar-2009, 11:34 AM
QUOTE (Camac @ 30-Mar-2009, 10:00 AM)
glaswegian;

Methinks young man I owe you somewhat of an apology. I must admit when first reading your comments on what is a Scot I was really perturbed that you were insinuating that I was not a Scot. I have done a lot of thinking on this of late and I am a Scot but I am not Scottish. I was born there of Scottish parents but I was raised a Canadian and it was just recently with the posting on U-Tube of the insulting Fox News programme with Greg Gutfeld slammed that fact in my face. I am proud of and Love my Scottish Heritage but I am after all is said and done a Canadian through and through. This is my Home not Scotland. My Daughters are Canadian and although I have many many relatives in Scotland I have only blood in common with them not culture or outlook. It took me years to find myn lost Family in Dundee and I love them dearly having visited and met them but they have their lives and I have mine and really, " nary the twixt shall meet."



Camac.

No apologies are needed Camac My father is irish and as a result I have had to think long and hard what my identity is. I have always been interested in irish culture, history etc and I have lived there for a number of years. But the fact is that when I look at myself and define whop I am I am not irish in any sense I am scottish.

However please dont apologize, there is no need for apologies. I think it is good to live out your life with clear perceptions on your own identity and be proud of who you are

cheers

Powered by Invision Power Board (https://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (https://www.invisionpower.com)