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> President Fires GM CEO?
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Patch 
Posted: 30-Mar-2009, 10:15 AM
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It has been announced on various news channels that "the president fired he GM CEO. I can find no Constitutional grounds for him to do this. He can with hold bail out dollars and force them into chapter 11. The bail out dollars appear to have no basis in the Constitution either. There are talking about limited bankruptcy. This is another term which has no basis in law.

The markets are falling on this news as I type. Several blogs I am following about 9 to one are saying the auto industry will fail based on the terms of the deal released earlier today. The biggest point of contention is govt guarantees of warranties. When the parts run out the warranty is worthless. I suspect the govt is relying on the old P.T. Barnum quote, "There is a sucker born every minute!"

The president takes an oath to "uphold the Constitution" (among other things) that part being the most important. This is why I worried about Obama and still do.

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oldraven 
Posted: 30-Mar-2009, 12:52 PM
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Not exactly. Congress recommended that he step down, and he resigned. Not that he had much choice, since the loans would have most likely been demanded repaid or the company would be forced into chapter 11. Something tells me the board wouldn't put up with that, and he was given a choice of resigning, or being fired. I'd have resigned too.

Now the COO and previous CFO is the new CEO. That's right, the guy who's been watching the books this entire time is now in place of the guy who inherited the steaming pile known as GM and actually managed to implement a turnaround in product and company structure. Wagoner was good at his job. His job was just impossible. Cleaning up a mess 30 years in the making with only 8 years to make it happen.

Even worse, Bob Lutz is retiring before the end of the year. That means GM not only has lost their CEO who knows the industry as good or better than almost anyone, they're also losing the guy who brought every decent product they currently have in their lineups since he was hired. Really, take a look at the pre Lutz GM product portfolio and the post.

I'm shocked that they went as far as to tell Chrysler to finish their merger with Fiat or be forced into Chapter SEVEN! Not eleven, but the liquidate your assets kind of chapter.


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Taliesin 
Posted: 30-Mar-2009, 12:54 PM
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I don't have much time to say anything more than, "I agree".

However, we ought not be surprised by Obama doing something like this, Patch. First of all, the Constitution doesn't appear to be worth much to Obama and the Democrats over all. They passed the AIG bonus tax bill, after all. Article 1, Section 9 says that Congress may not pass bills of attainder or ex post facto laws.

Secondly, the people are CLAMORING for him to do these kinds of things. Class war is alive and well in America, and people in their rage are demanding the government do things it has no business doing.

I am VERY concerned.


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Patch 
Posted: 30-Mar-2009, 01:32 PM
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In media coverage, Obama claimed credit for calling for the CEO to resign. In the US, that is how we fire a CEO.

The president does not choose chapter 11 or chapter 7. Very few companies end up in chapter 7 and I never recall one starting there. He is reaching for power he does not have. As for the people wanting these things, the "unweighted" polls show that nearly 60% disapprove of his actions. However his popularity polls (more like a beauty contest) are also around 60%. The latter has nothing to do with his leadership abilities. Always remember, 28% of the voters are D's, 26% are R's and the rest are independent.

The AIG tax bill was a sham and he eventually vowed to veto it. It was to diffuse the fact that the bonus clause was inserted by the democrats. The senator who did it said he did so because the senate leadership told him to do so.

GM's own Auditors said that NO amount of aid would save the company. That leaves chapter 11 and the longer it waits the less likely it will be that the employees will survive it. The employees are being "used" as part of a big political sham to enhance his image. Actually, Chrysler may do better as it is smaller and will likely be in the process sooner.

I noticed that in Obama's speech, the employees were referred to so regularly that it was obvious.

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Taliesin 
Posted: 30-Mar-2009, 02:10 PM
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QUOTE (Patch)
As for the people wanting these things, the "unweighted" polls show that nearly 60% disapprove of his actions. However his popularity polls (more like a beauty contest) are also around 60%. The latter has nothing to do with his leadership abilities. Always remember, 28% of the voters are D's, 26% are R's and the rest are independent.


With regards to what "the people" want, I will qualify my statement.

I was referring to:
1. The quoted people on media coverage. Now, I know the bias of the media makes these people unlikely to be the majority, but they DO influence the minds of people, whether we like it or not, which is why the concept of a free press is so important, and why what we've got is so aggravating.

2. The people, even conservatives, that I have personally talked to about this.

The 2nd group of people is what has me more concerned. I participate in discussions on a radio talk show here in my area. The host is local, and while he occasionally gets callers from other states through his broadcast over the Internet, the majority of his listeners are locals. In my discussions with people, I've heard conservatives saying that the whole AIG tax issue (sham or not, and I'll get to that shortly) and the CEO of GM being fired is a GOOD thing. They don't even have a problem with the unconstitutionality of his action, because there's such a feeding frenzy against these CEO's whipped up by the media, and fueled by the tough economic times many of us are going through. People are allowing their anger and emotions to get involved over and above the limitations set forth in the Constitution by men who were just as whipped up and angry about their situation that they threw off the yoke of tyranny over it! No one is giving a second (or third or fourth, even) thought to the Constitution and the limits set upon the government it created.

THAT is scary.

And as for polls, I don't trust those a whole lot. Poll questions can be asked in a manner so as to influence the results. I listen to people I encounter, and contrary to the rules of "polite discussion", I have no problem bringing up politics AND religion.

QUOTE (Patch)
The AIG tax bill was a sham and he eventually vowed to veto it. It was to diffuse the fact that the bonus clause was inserted by the democrats. The senator who did it said he did so because the senate leadership told him to do so.


I don't doubt you're right on this. But regardless of whether or not it was a sham, the fact remains that it PASSED! It passed with some "conservative" votes. What does this mean? It means that the people we've elected to uphold the constitution don't know what it says!

Paul Ryan, Republican Representative from Wisconsin even came out later and said that he didn't know the AIG Bonus Tax Bill was unconstitutional, and that he'd not have supported it had he known. An admirable sentiment, but it means that he doesn't know the limits on Congress as set forth in the Constitution! A local congressman was asked on the aforementioned radio show if he knew why the AIG Bonus Tax Bill was unconstitutional, and he basically said it was "just wrong", which is all well and good, but he also did not know why it was unconstitutional! If there's one section of the Constitution you'd hope Congress has read, it would be Article 1, Section 9: "Limits on Congress. Now listen...I don't expect that a Congressman should have the entire Constitution memorized, but it's easily available online, and searchable. There's no excuse for this kind of ignorance.....except that we, the voters, have tolerated it.

So that was my point. We ought not be surprised about the government doing unconstitutional things. That appears to be the MO these days.
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Patch 
Posted: 30-Mar-2009, 03:33 PM
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I trust polls so long as I can see how the questions were posed (or question.) With "tea party" demonstrations popping up across the country with more regularity weekly, it appears support is changing. The Constitution is important to the majority of the people. Even the liberal media outlets are beginning to change.

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Donny 
Posted: 30-Mar-2009, 03:38 PM
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biggrin.gif I'd like to add my little 2 cents. (Actually with the new budgets and deficit it's probably more like .002 cents.)
Any way my concern relates to another aspect of the sharing. There was an old phrase in law that dates back to the time of the Magna Carta, but more thoroughly discussed by Samuel Rutherford in his 1644 Book. "Lex Rex" or "Rex Lex". It asks the question is the Law King or is the King Law? It seems we are headlong rushing into Rex Lex, via the democratic congress and the Obama administration.

This really scares me. sad.gif And like others thumbs_up.gif the fear is the populace does not even consider it a possibility. They are so caught up in their own emotions.



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MacEoghainn 
Posted: 30-Mar-2009, 04:30 PM
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I was going to start a seperate thread but I think this fits here:

The American form of government.


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Antwn 
Posted: 30-Mar-2009, 06:26 PM
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QUOTE (Taliesin @ 30-Mar-2009, 02:10 PM)
Paul Ryan, Republican Representative from Wisconsin even came out later and said that he didn't know the AIG Bonus Tax Bill was unconstitutional, and that he'd not have supported it had he known. An admirable sentiment, but it means that he doesn't know the limits on Congress as set forth in the Constitution! A local congressman was asked on the aforementioned radio show if he knew why the AIG Bonus Tax Bill was unconstitutional, and he basically said it was "just wrong", which is all well and good, but he also did not know why it was unconstitutional! If there's one section of the Constitution you'd hope Congress has read, it would be Article 1, Section 9: "Limits on Congress. Now listen...I don't expect that a Congressman should have the entire Constitution memorized, but it's easily available online, and searchable. There's no excuse for this kind of ignorance.....except that we, the voters, have tolerated it.


There were a few members of Congress during an interview recently on CNN who said they knew that many in Congress didn't even read the bill before they voted on it, and that its not uncommon since bills are often so long (probably full of pork). So its no surprise that the guy you mention wasn't up on the constitutionality of it. They were pissed and wanted to rush it through with little forethought, partially for the political advantage I'm sure.


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Donny 
Posted: 30-Mar-2009, 09:12 PM
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MacE

[I was going to start a seperate thread but I think this fits here:

The Aerican form of government.
]
I went out and reviewed the webpage. biggrin.gif It was well done and something most people should check out to be reminded of the things we forget over the years.

Is this your site, or did you just stumble on it? cheers.gif
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Taliesin 
Posted: 30-Mar-2009, 09:47 PM
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I would really, really, really like to believe that the majority of people consider the Constitution to be important, but I just can't believe that when my own observations show the opposite to be true.

I'm going to our local Tea Party demonstration. In fact, I'm an admin on the Facebook group, somehow. lol. Perhaps my faith in the people will be given a little boost after that. smile.gif

As for the Congressmen reading the bill, that doesn't necessarily matter, from where I stand. I'd not read the bill, and I knew what it was. In addition, when I looked at the Limitations on Congress in the Constitution, it was clear to me why it was unconstitutional without reading the text of the bill.

It really depresses me, and I'm hoping others out there are getting annoyed enough to vote intelligently come next November.
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MacEoghainn 
Posted: 31-Mar-2009, 05:50 AM
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QUOTE (Donny @ 30-Mar-2009, 10:12 PM)
MacE

[I was going to start a seperate thread but I think this fits here:

The Aerican form of government.
]
I went out and reviewed the webpage. biggrin.gif It was well done and something most people should check out to be reminded of the things we forget over the years.

Is this your site, or did you just stumble on it? cheers.gif

Found it by accident.
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Patch 
Posted: 31-Mar-2009, 11:27 AM
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According to today's news, Obama's address on the auto industry was just "double speak".

Bankruptcy will take place, probably within 60 days. Very many will loose their jobs. They will be eligible for retraining, probably for jobs that pay half of what they made with GM. The govt IS trying to force smaller auto's. Those who can afford to buy any new car will then resort to foreign automobiles. Under those circumstances, should I need another car, it will be foreign. The reality of this did not sit well with anyone at the restaurant today regardless of their political persuasion. I doubt that the bankruptcy court will listen to the govt plan. (separation of the branches of govt.)

This is going to be sad, but very interesting!

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MacEoghainn 
Posted: 31-Mar-2009, 11:34 AM
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QUOTE (Patch @ 31-Mar-2009, 12:27 PM)
.......This is going to be sad, but very interesting!

Slàinte,   

 Patch    

What's the old curse? "May you live in interesting times"

I'd prefer dull! wacko.gif fear.gif
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Patch 
Posted: 31-Mar-2009, 02:24 PM
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Yes, the old Chinese curse. My then 10 year old niece explained it to me. She was adopted from a Manchurian orphanage at age 6. Her take now at 15 is that things are relevant and relevant to a Manchurian orphanage life is really good here! Maybe we all need to experience some real adversity from time to time and then too, maybe we shall.

Slàinte,   

 Patch    
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