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> What About The Fate Of The Guantanamo Detainees ?, Prisonners without a trial !
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Lionel 
Posted: 29-Jan-2004, 05:44 AM
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What do you think of their fate ? Jailed without any trial for about two years. Even if they are alleged terrorists, it is a real shame to keep them like this regardless of basic war prisoners and human rights !


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Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas 
Posted: 29-Jan-2004, 06:50 AM
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An administration that deliberately builds a prison camp in a locatin where it can expect to beyond the reach of any law should be held to account--not likely to happen though.


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Annabelle 
Posted: 29-Jan-2004, 09:08 AM
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I have to give you guys a heads up on something. It's more of a camping reserve. My nephew is a Marine based there right now. They have tents posted everywhere cause they don't have enough housing for this large number of people. They are receiving free dental, medical, housing and hot food daily at the US Gov's expense. Yes, US Tax payer pay for this. Now due process takes time. And unfortunately it will be supplied as available. So don't jump the wagon.
My nephew tells me they play ball, basketball read and swim in the NCO pool so they aren't hurting that bad. I'm not saying this is ideal just doing the best they can in a difficult situation.

Annabelle


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Randy 
Posted: 29-Jan-2004, 09:08 AM
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You know I am not really sure how I come out on this, but I have opposite feelings. I agree that maybe the deserve due process. The other half of me (actually the larger half) never wants to see innocent people to die again because people in that part of the world are jealous of our way of life and mad that we support the israelis. They are not american citizens so they do not fall under our law structure but instead under international law and in my opinion they are prisoners of war and it is the job of the UN to set up negotiations to process the prisoners. Which to my knowledge they have not done.
I guess I just do not know, but I have a friend (in boarder patrol & homeland security) and said the last I talked to him explained that these people are not there for no reason they are a serious threat to our security.

I guess I will step off my soapbox ))
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Armo 
Posted: 29-Jan-2004, 11:06 AM
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QUOTE (Randy @ Jan 29 2004, 09:08 AM)
part of the world are jealous of our way of life

I can totally see that jealousy in this day and age.. It is totally obvious. Now days, hatred and racism is NOT expectable UNLESS its the Americans and Israelis you hate and despise. Its really sad.. Hatred is Hatred no matter what color you paint it. I could get more into this, but it would take up three pages... So far, the USA has been there for me and my family with opportunities since the 1970's. We came to the USA for a better life.. and a Better life is what we got.

Again.. Its ALL jealousy... Others in the world are just mad that thier country they are living in is not a strong super power.
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Armo 
Posted: 29-Jan-2004, 11:16 AM
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AS for the treatment of the prisoner of Guantanamo.. I am sure they are being treated humane.. It is just for the time being until things blow over.. Its not like a life imprisonment or death sentence. In fact it is better they are in the camp rather than out fighting US troops and loosing their lives. Remember, these are people who surrendered or were captured ON the battle Field. Its not like they were just picked up off the street or in a market.

This is WAR, resources are low, and not enough lawyers to go around anyways. By the time all the prisoners get a trial, this conflict would be over. And what kind of "fairness" can you get out of speedy trials? Now the top Al-Qaida operatives... THEY have something to worry about... Usually they get the big punishments.. and with the big punishments usually comes a trial.

Trust me I heard it all living in a Liberal state such as California.. I even heard that there is "Gas chambers" and "mass executions" on the bay (which is NOT true). But people still try their best to push propaganda of the sort.. I've talked to troops coming home from Iraq and from Guantanamo bay and get a TOTALLY Different story than what the media reports.. I am sure there is some isolated events, but no widespread human rights violations.
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Randy 
Posted: 29-Jan-2004, 11:41 AM
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Armo I think you miss my point, I never specifically said USA was what they are jealous of. I was talking about western world in general that includes Europe.
And it is my opinion that people in poor 3rd world countries are jealous of our way of life. Some move to get a better life and some scratch and happy existence in there country and others blame the well off for there situation. I understand there is an underlying religious issues involved, but I think that acting horribly in the name of your religious belief is being used as justification. There are muslim countries that interact and prosper in the global community that is why I tend to look for another reason.
I believe this same idea can be seen inside the USA and I am sure other countries as well. There is always a resentment between the haves and the have nots.
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Armo 
Posted: 29-Jan-2004, 11:51 AM
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QUOTE (Randy @ Jan 29 2004, 11:41 AM)
Armo I think you miss my point, I never specifically said USA was what they are jealous of.  I was talking about western world in general that includes Europe.

Well that is true.. As for your feelings towards religion playing a role.. As I always say, "To the enemy, we are all Infidels". Many people feel Islamic extremists only have a problem with the USA (which sadly justifies the terroist's cause in their eyes)... Those people are missing the whole picture and are terribly mistaken... Its not just a problem with the USA, Its is a problem with the whole western civilization AND Non-believers of the Muslim faith.. Maybe when people come to that reality, we can all stand together against the common enemy which is extremists. Many other countries and religions are victims of Islamic extremists.. Here is only a few, but the list goes on and on... Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, Jews, EVEN Muslims of opposing sects... ect.. ect...
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birddog20002001 
Posted: 29-Jan-2004, 12:14 PM
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I draw great ire from the legal wrangling by the government to prevent these prisoners from due process. Guantanamo bay is effectively a posession of the United States, it is a long term lease with Cuba and does falls under US law. Therefore these prisoners should have access to lawyers, court and have the ability to confront their accusers. By taking these rights away from the lowest in society we run the danger of allowing them to be taken away from ourselves. A fine line can be drawn between a terrorist and a cell support system and between a cell suport system and a protester and between a protester and a common citizen. The government should be held to the rights and responsibilities of jurisdictional rule, individuals must have their rights protected or the system will fail to function. I also say that after a full trial if these prisoners are found guilty they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.


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peckery 
Posted: 29-Jan-2004, 12:15 PM
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To be blunt, war IS hell.As a man once said, we don't call it racial profiling, we call it good police work. I feel bad for them, if they are innocent. I think right now we don't have the luxury of time to "wait and see." Yes, sucks for them, but who is ready to watch another building fall down live on tv? Our hand my be dirty, but who then supplied the dirt?? sad.gif
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oldraven 
Posted: 29-Jan-2004, 12:46 PM
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This makes me think of another issue. What do you all think of Maher Arar? A 33yo Canadian citizen who was taken into custody by Americans in New York in 2002 on his way home from Tuisia. He was then shiped to Syria and held there in prison, and tortured for a full year, almost to the day. He had never been charged for any crime in any country.

Here it is in his words. Maher Arar

If you don't like hearing just one side of this kind of story, look around. There's lots of coverage on this one.


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Armo 
Posted: 29-Jan-2004, 01:15 PM
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That would be considered, as I stated in a previous post, an "isolated" incident. There is no mass exodus of Middle eastern people out of the USA.. In fact the borders are still flooded with people wanting in the USA.. And the poor man being tortured... That?s on Syria's head.. It was Syrians who tortured him.. Not the Americans. As for him being deported out of the USA, Desperate times take desperate measures.. He definately was not an American citizen, we can agree on that. Not that I belive that non-citezen should all be deported but Unfortunately, nothing in the life if 100% perfect.
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oldraven 
Posted: 29-Jan-2004, 01:25 PM
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Nope, but he was traveling on a Canadian passport. That should have sent up flags to start with. And if you can find multiple instances of the same thing happening it's not an isolated incident, is it? The US government is every bit as responsible as the Syrian in this case. They didn't hold the whip, but they also didn't follow protocol, and ended up deporting an innocent man for no reason, simply because of his heritage, not his past.

You've got to see how messed up this is.


edit

Oh, and this should be in the politics forum, don't you think? It's far too hot for general.

This post has been edited by oldraven on 29-Jan-2004, 01:28 PM
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tartangal 
Posted: 29-Jan-2004, 01:42 PM
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While I understand the terrible wound that was inflicted by the terrorists that is still hugely painful, I have to agree with birddog. When you allow those responsible for upholding the law to circumvent it when they want, then you erode the civil rights of every citizen of America.
If the people held in Guantanamo are found to be guilty then by all means prosecute them to the full measure of the law but to hold them without trial or access to the judicial system shames America's championing of civil liberties.
WHEW!! (Jules climbing long way down from her soapbox! rolleyes.gif )


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peckery 
Posted: 29-Jan-2004, 02:31 PM
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QUOTE (tartangal @ Jan 29 2004, 01:42 PM)
When you allow those responsible for upholding the law to circumvent it when they want, then you erode the civil rights of every citizen of America.
If the people held in Guantanamo are found to be guilty then by all means prosecute them to the full measure of the law but to hold them without trial or access to the judicial system shames America's championing of civil liberties.
WHEW!! (Jules climbing long way down from her soapbox! rolleyes.gif )

These are not "normal" times and as I said before in my opinion, we do not have the luxury of time. If the government has to change laws of the fly for the greater good of the country, I can live with that. There have be no other large scale acts of terrorism against the US since 9/11. Do you think it is because they have not tried or because of agressive actions by the US government to prevent it? king.gif
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