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> Do You Want A Man Of Faith?, Seperate the church from the state?
Shamalama 
Posted: 31-Mar-2004, 07:49 AM
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From a recent Time.com article we get this:

A Test of Kerry's Faith
The candidate's policies are at odds with church canon. Will there be a price to pay?
By KAREN TUMULTY AND PERRY BACON JR.
Monday, Apr. 05, 2004
The last time a major political party put forward a Roman Catholic candidate for President, he had to confront bigotry and suspicion that he would be taking orders from Rome. Forty-four years later, the Democrats are poised to nominate another Catholic?another Senator from Massachusetts whose initials happen to be J.F.K.?and this time, the controversy over his religion may develop within the Catholic Church itself. Kerry's positions on some hot-button issues aren't sitting well with members of the church elite. Just listen to a Vatican official, who is an American: "People in Rome are becoming more and more aware that there's a problem with John Kerry, and a potential scandal with his apparent profession of his Catholic faith and some of his stances, particularly abortion."

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OK. Kerry claims he's a Catholic. Bush claims he's a Protestant. Polls consistently show that Americans prefer their leaders to be religious.

But is that what we really want? Abortion, stem cells, cloning, gay marriage, bioethics, school vouchers.

Kerry quoted James 2: 14, "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?" in an attempt to criticize Bush, but with Kerry's stance on abortion could the same complaint be leveled against him?

A basic premise of the US Constitution is that the government will not create an official state religion. Does, by very nature, a President's faith become a state religion?

Politicians have long argued that their religious beliefs need not influence their actions as elected representatives. That position is what provoked New York's Archbishop John Cardinal O'Connor in 1984 to castigate New York Governor Mario Cuomo and Democratic vice presidential nominee Geraldine Ferraro, who are both pro-choice.

The Vatican issued last year a "doctrinal note" warning Catholic lawmakers that they have a "grave and clear obligation to oppose any law that attacks human life. For them, as for every Catholic, it is impossible to promote such laws or to vote for them."

The Moral Majority, a political action group composed of conservative, fundamentalist Christians, was founded (1979) and led (1979?87) by evangelist Rev. Jerry Falwell, the group played a significant role in the 1980 elections through its strong support of conservative candidates. It lobbied for prayer and the teaching of creationism in public schools, while opposing the Equal Rights Amendment, homosexual rights, abortion, and the U.S.-Soviet SALT treaties. The Moral Majority was dissolved in 1989.

When Kerry campaigned in Missouri in February, St. Louis Archbishop Raymond Burke publicly warned him "not to present himself for Communion"?an ostracism that Canon Law 915 reserves for "those who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin."

The Christian Broadcasting Network's website has a list so that you can easily see what your senator has said about the proposed Federal Marriage Amendment to the Constitution -- and find out how they voted on the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act.

Inevitably, religion and politics will clash no matter who the candidate. Is the Oath Of Office higher than the Statement Of Faith?

So I return to my primary question: Do you want a man of faith as President?


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Common Folk Using Common Sense
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maisky 
Posted: 31-Mar-2004, 08:12 AM
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Good post, sir. To answer the question, Yes, as long as he listens to himself and his constituents rather than some cleric who CLAIMS to have a direct line to whomever he believes runs things. Re: my previous thread about religeous zealots controlling countries. Bad idea, whatever the religeous base.


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"If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe."
Carl Sagan
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Shamalama 
Posted: 31-Mar-2004, 09:06 AM
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Ahhh, then both Kerry and Bush should, by nature of their Christian faith, denounce abortion. But if either actually did so publically and prefaced it with a statement about their religious faith, then wouldn't the media be all over them, and wouldn't many message boards begin complaining about the 'new theocracy'?

Or does he put his constituents first, and vote their will and not his own? At that point what would you say about his faith? Is an elected official an Official first, and a Person second?

By very nature of the Catholic faith there is a heiracy, starting with the Pope. Does that make Kerry, Kennedy, and any future Catholic unfit?

What about a religious leader (i.e. Billy Graham) as a personal spiritual advisor?

Yes, religious zealots are a terror on any country. What about only half-a-zealot, someone that has some faith but just not too much?

Ain't no easy answers here.

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maisky 
Posted: 31-Mar-2004, 09:23 AM
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There is truth in your statement of "no easy answers" Sir. thumbs_up.gif
My PERSONAL opinion (and my religious training) says that to blindly follow another persons words is pure stupidity. We EACH must decide right and wrong for ourselves. As American citizens and as Human Beings, it is our responsibility to question authority. Those who blindly follow are sheep, not humans.

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birddog20002001 
Posted: 31-Mar-2004, 04:05 PM
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I do believe in mutual exclusivity, a public official MUST be able to draw the line between faith and duty to country. If one cannot seperate the sometimes conflicting requirements of each obligation, they are not fit for public service. The reverse arguement is that if they can seperate the obligations they are not fit for the Kingdom of Heaven.

We the people of the United States have been handed a Representative Republic by our founding fathers in order to protect the rights of the minority and ensure that all of our rights are protected. If we lived in a Democracy the opinions of the majority could easily displace the ability and freedom to display non-religious condoned less popular opinions.

Now often times people draw the conclusion that because our government is loosely based on Judeo-Christian values that the Jews and Christians should have more religious leeway granted to them. This is a ludricrious assumption. For example Government sanctioned prayer, I feel is a violation of the basic rights of the citizens, I do not however have a problem with individual prayer in public places and this is the right that many "conservatives" say that liberals are trying to take away.

I don't believe that Bush fits the bill despite his boasts, I remember his laughing and joking about the screams of a woman that had killed a couple with a pick ax. My point isn't that she was executed but the fact that he could not maintain the necessary decorum that should be maintained when you preside over the death of another.

Faith has been used as long as time has been counted to influence the future of all governments even secular ones. As soon as a head of state opposes the Church they are publically chastised in order to put them in line. Henry the VIII wanted a divorce and the pope said no, he was excommunicated. Henry formed his own Church with himself at the head so he wouldn't have to answer to anyone. Robert the Bruce was excommunicated for the murder of The "Red" Comyn under a flag of truce in a church. The Pope has issued decrees excommunicating anyone that used crossbows etc....

The last I had heard, those that were known to use or endorse the use of condoms were not allowed to accept communion and in fact several bishop's have publicly denounced Catholics that have held public office and have not denounced the use of condoms. This is an example of the Church exceeding it's authority over all of society.

Any ways to get to the point I want a man that has the interest of the citizens of the counrty in his heart and actions. I would like a moral person to run the country but a moral person probably wouldn't want the job.


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"when a person is prepared to die for a cause, and indeed to glory in such a death, it impossible to supress him or the cause it represents." Jawaharlal Nehru

"Only the suppressed word is dangerous." Ludwig Borne

"All of our freedoms are a single bundle, all must be secure if any is to be preserved." Dwight David Eisenhower

"All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are both immortal and divine." Socrates
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maisky 
Posted: 01-Apr-2004, 08:14 AM
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Well said, Birddog!!! This is a very good thread. Interesting points raised.
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Shamalama 
Posted: 01-Apr-2004, 01:39 PM
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Wow birddog. That was an excellent read. Thanks.

I constantly get emails complaining about the removal of prayer from schools. The last time I checked my daughter could say a prayer at school anytime she wants. It's just the official government-sponsored prayer that cannot be done, and I'm all fine with that.

I want someone with morals close to mine to run this country. But I'm electing them to be President, not Priest, so there is a difference. The bible speaks of "turning the other cheek", and that's a beautiful philosophy, but sometimes a President is forced to "kick some butt".

A church is supposed to set an example, to be a hospital for those in need, not a ruler than commands and demands.

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maisky 
Posted: 01-Apr-2004, 08:28 PM
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QUOTE (Shamalama @ Apr 1 2004, 02:39 PM)
Wow birddog.  That was an excellent read.  Thanks.

I constantly get emails complaining about the removal of prayer from schools.  The last time I checked my daughter could say a prayer at school anytime she wants.  It's just the official government-sponsored prayer that cannot be done, and I'm all fine with that.

I want someone with morals close to mine to run this country.  But I'm electing them to be President, not Priest, so there is a difference.  The bible speaks of "turning the other cheek", and that's a beautiful philosophy, but sometimes a President is forced to "kick some butt".

A church is supposed to set an example, to be a hospital for those in need, not a ruler than commands and demands.

Darn! It is disappointing when you say stuff I agree with. biggrin.gif

If we can't fight, we will just have to drink together.
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Shadows 
Posted: 01-Apr-2004, 11:23 PM
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Show me a human being that does not believe in something greater, even those that do not profess to believe in a grand being still believe in something ( the lack of that being , which in itself is a qualification that there might be such a being!). It is all religion, even the non belief!

Religion can never be totally removed from "state" only because we are human! A seed of belief in something ( even nothing ) is religion!

It is how we let the beliefs control us that needs to be looked at!


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I support the separation of church and hate!

IMAGINATION - the freest and largest nation in the world!


One can not profess to be of "GOD" and show intolerence and prejudice towards the beliefs of others.

Am fear nach gleidh na h–airm san t–sith, cha bhi iad aige ’n am a’ chogaidh.
He that keeps not his arms in time of peace will have none in time of war.

"We're all in this together , in the parking lot between faith and fear" ... O.C.M.S.

“Beasts feed; man eats; only the man of intellect knows how to eat well.”

"Without food we are nothing, without history we are lost." - SHADOWS


Is iomadh duine laghach a mhill an Creideamh.
Religion has spoiled many a good man.

The clan MacEwen
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maisky 
Posted: 02-Apr-2004, 07:35 AM
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QUOTE (Shadows @ Apr 2 2004, 12:23 AM)
Show me a human being that does not believe in something greater, even those that do not profess to believe in a grand being still believe in something ( the lack of that being , which in itself is a qualification that there might be such a being!). It is all religion, even the non belief!

Religion can never be totally removed from "state" only because we are human! A seed of belief in something ( even nothing ) is religion!

It is how we let the beliefs control us that needs to be looked at!

Well said, Sir. thumbs_up.gif
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