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| Celtic Radio Community > Scotland > Scots Languages |
| Posted by: barddas 27-Aug-2003, 12:49 PM |
| For those interested in finding out more about the languages in which Catriona speaks so proudlyt of, I started looking into them. ( Just skimming the surface) I will post more as time allows. Just wanted say Thanks Catriona for peaking my interest....   Here are a few to get started.....  http://www.lallans.co.uk/ http://www.olestig.dk/scotland/scottishlanguages.html This site has an artlicle about "Gaelic and Scots- SHOULD AULD LANGUAGES BE FORGOT" Cheers |
| Posted by: barddas 27-Aug-2003, 12:53 PM |
| This site is the Scots Language Resource Centre- http://scotsyett.com/faq.asp |
| Posted by: Catriona 27-Aug-2003, 03:59 PM |
| Glad I piqued your interest, Jason... As you have discovered, there are a number of Scots 'languages' - although the argument is still ongoing about whether Auld Scots, the Doric, Lallans and Braid Scots ARE languages or just dialects. You know which side of the argument I favour.  The first two sites are very good (I know both of them well As I told you, I am involved in a number of sites which promote Lallans!  |
| Posted by: Briana 11-Sep-2003, 12:31 PM |
| I'm new here so please bear with me. Are there any websites dedicated to learning the Scottish language. I know there are for Irish, so I'm hoping there's one for Scottish. I have a friend who speaks Welsh, but I want to move to Scotland or Ireland, mainly Scotland (I'm shallow, I like the kilts), and I would love to learn the language before I go. Also, forgive my ignorace, but the Gaelic reminds me a lot of Danish (which I am and don't speak). Is it because there Northern languages? Thanks! Briana |
| Posted by: Catriona 12-Sep-2003, 01:42 AM | ||
Hello Briana Welcome! If you are asking about the Scots language, then the sites above are a good starting place. However, if you are talking about Scots Gaelic - and I rather think you must be as you mention Welsh and Irish Gaelic - then I'm afraid I can't help. I do not speak the Gaelic. My interests lie in preserving Auld Scots/Lallans/Doric/Braid - and I'm afraid that these really have to be acquired by listening to speakers, rather than working through a grammar text.... |
| Posted by: ranger 12-Sep-2003, 09:59 AM |
| Thanks for the website links, Jason. |
| Posted by: masonalex 14-Sep-2003, 10:34 AM |
| I am new here, but I have enjoyed looking at the websites listed. Gaelic is clearly a very different language from English, but I am not so sure about Scots. I read over some of the text in Scots and I was able to follow a fair amount of it. The grammar structure is, as far as I can tell, the same as English. Some words are different, to be sure, and the spelling and pronunciation would always be different. But in the US, different regions of the country had very different accents and different words for the same things, and at one time different spelling conventions. Television has a way of homogenizing everything, so the differences are not so sharp as they once were, but they are still there. (In 1984, a native of Charleston, South Carolina sought the Democratic nomination for President. In the all critical New Hampshire primary election, he received almost no votes. Later, it was realized that people in New Hampshire had great difficulty understanding his thick Charleston accent.) To those more learned on this subject than I, may I pose a question: What is the case to be made for Scots to be a language rather than a dialect? Thanks. |
| Posted by: Catriona 15-Sep-2003, 02:07 AM | ||
It is a complex question.... and I have been involved in the promotion of Lallans/Braid/Auld Scots/Doric for many years. This URL has put the argument quite well. This is an extremely well-regarded site by Scottish natives - I have been involved with a number of the sites which promote Lallans... http://www.lallans.co.uk/furthsettins/info.html You are wrong about the grammar being the same by the way - ask any of the natives on here - although we are very much in the minority! 'Wir ain leid'..... 'our own speech/language' - Tell me what's 'English' about that?! |
| Posted by: masonalex 15-Sep-2003, 12:46 PM |
| Thanks for the link. It was very interesting. The author's point seems to be that Englich and Scots derive from the same language, hence the similiarities between the two. It brings to mind Spanish and Portugese, which are related but different. I still think that the grammer is similar. Scots spelling is intimidating, but then if one reads Cranmer's 1549 Book of Common Prayer, the English spelling from that time is pretty bizarre to the modern eye. This article was very illuminating on one point close to home. In the 19th Century American Southland, working class Southerners were usually of Scots or Scots Irish ancestry and they referred to themselves as "Southrons." I have always been puzzled by that name until reading in this article that some Scots once refered to English as "Southron." I suppose that as these American Scots lived in the South, that is how they thought of themselves. |
| Posted by: Catriona 15-Sep-2003, 03:54 PM |
| I am glad you enjoyed the link. Wir Ain Leid is one of the better Lallans sites.... The spelling of Lallans (when I say Lallans, I mean Doric/AS/Braid as well - but too longwinded to spell it out each time!) is at best, fluid.... However, you need to know how it is pronounced by a native to know where to 'accent' the word. For instance in some cases, the same 'English' word would be pronounced quite differently in each country! Ask Barddas - he visited Scotland earlier this year - and had to 'tune' in to the cadence of our speech. And, as a East Coast, Central-Belter (as we are known) from Edinburgh, I would find Aberdonians speaking together quite intimidating.... I might only get one word in every 3 or so - but write it down, and I'd have no problems. The Weegies for example, have their own version of Lallans - quite different to Edinburgh. AD is a German, living with her partner in Fife... her English is really good - but she had a bit of difficulty tuning into the conversation when Fifers were talking together! Your analogy re Spanish and Portugese is a good one.... |
| Posted by: CelticRose 07-Dec-2003, 12:06 AM |
Catriona! This has been a very interesting thread to me. I did not see it before. Not sure how I missed it!  I am involved in two Scottish sites where there are both Scots and people from all over the world and the emphasis is always on learning to speak Gaelic. I had the impression that Gaelic was the language of the Highlands, not the lowlands. No one I have ever spoken to has ever mentioned Lallans to me. I looked over all the links that barddas so graciously provided and does the Lallans look like the first link he posted? It looks like a mixture of English and a Scottish dialect to me and I was just wondering if that is what the Lallans language looked like. In Gaelic, Ciamar a sibh, is how are you. How would how are you be written in Lallans? I hope I am not being too stupid here. You must really roll your eyes when you see my posts! Many thanks! |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 07-Dec-2003, 09:11 AM |
 quite right Catriona, just imagine that poor wee German coming to Fife for the first time !  I'm actually starting to speak it myself. I have to say I don't have much problems understanding other accents by now, northerners sometimes give me a bit of problems, but I listen to different radio stations to get into all these accents..I think Scots (might it be Doric, Fife, Lallans, Weegie or whatever) is quite nice to listen to. although it's hard to understand at first, when you're not used to it. My BF's stepdad comes from the Trossachs, he speaks nice |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 07-Dec-2003, 09:45 AM |
I forgot to add something  Rose, casually here in Fife you would usually say "Hows you?" You can compare Scots to a dialect of English, although I myself have another theory about it. In Scots, I know is "I ken" which reminds me alot of the German "Ich kenne" and there is other examples of it. English & German have the same roots, the only difference being that English developed of the northern form (same with Dutch, for example) while modern German developed from the southern form (as well as Austrian and Switzerdütch (swiss-german). I personally have the theory that English and Scots again have the same roots, but developed differently. I would have to talk to a linguist but that is my personal idea of it. |
| Posted by: Arianrhod 07-Dec-2003, 11:26 AM |
| Aon... Thanks for the "lesson" in Fife speak last night ! In Service to the Dream, Paula |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 07-Dec-2003, 02:40 PM |
| *lol* aye sure, anytime, Paula.. before anybody else asks me as well: be warned our lessons consisted of swearwurds |
| Posted by: CelticRose 07-Dec-2003, 04:04 PM |
| Much thanks for your help, Aon! This all gets pretty confusing to me, but it probably isn't at all if I was there to hear it all like you. Really enjoyed talking to you yesterday, btw! |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 07-Dec-2003, 04:14 PM |
| me too I'm sure you can make it someday, I think it's not as expensive getting a flight from America to here than getting a flight to America from here. Btw, Rose, Lallans is not Gaelic, if you were under the impression it was. It is more a form of English (Catriona, I only explain, don't hit me *laughs*) than Gaelic. |
| Posted by: CelticRose 07-Dec-2003, 04:41 PM | ||
Hi Aon! Oh I knew that Lallans was not Gaelic. I was just trying to see it in writing the difference between the two languages. That's why I wrote "How are you?" in English and then "Ciamar a sibh " in Gaelic and wondered what the three words would look like in Lallans. I was just trying to get an idea of Lallans. I think I understand now. Many thanks again! |
| Posted by: Catriona 07-Dec-2003, 05:17 PM |
| CelticRose How are you - might be written (or spoken, as Lallans is more a spoken language nowadays than a written, one - although many of us are trying to change that!) Hoo's yersel? or How's yourself? You should look at the poetry of Robert Burns and Robert Ferguson, amongst others... they write in Auld Scots. |
| Posted by: CelticRose 07-Dec-2003, 05:47 PM |
| Okay I totally get it now! Sorry to be such a boob! I was trying to make Lallans/Doric, etc., into something it wasn't. I have two Scottish acquaintenances who are from and live in Scotland now. One of them from Dundee I believe speaks that way in the Lallans, just never knew that is what he is speaking. The other is from Glasgow and makes fun of him for speaking that way and told me that Scots don't really talk like that! So that is a lot of the part of the confusion here with me. Thanks again! |
| Posted by: Catriona 07-Dec-2003, 05:57 PM |
| Both of your friends are 'right' - Celticrose... For instance, I do not speak Lallans most of the time - I speak standard English.... (otherwise how would my students - many from England, Europe and other points of the compass - understand what I was saying?!) However, most Sots use Lallans words in common speech. It is more the construction of our sentences (ie the grammar) that shows we are Lallans speakers. For Aiberdeen (Aberdeen) it is the Doric - oh and Glasgow? Well, most Scots would tell you that Weegies speak their own language, distinct from the rest of us! I am passionate about keeping Lallans alive. I am directly involved in many of the Lallans sites on the web. TV and the homogenisation of our languages (influenced, too much in my opinon, by Hollywood) is something devoutly to be fought against! Ah um a Lallans speakir - an prood o it.... |
| Posted by: Macerca 07-Dec-2003, 06:48 PM |
| Hey Catriona Is there a place where one might pick some books or tapes to learn Lallans? |
| Posted by: Catriona 08-Dec-2003, 02:52 AM |
| Marcera Barddas started this thread about Lallans sites - he put a number of URLs on page 1. This one is also very good - http://www.lallans.co.uk/ The thing is: Lallans or Auld Scots or the Doric or call it what you will (!) sounds different wherever it is spoken in Scotland. The Doric is the Aberdeen/shire version, and it has its own very particular words, quite different from the Lallans spoken in the Central Belt. The way it is spoken in Fife is different again - as is thte way a Dundonian would speak.... And it is more complex than JUST a local accent.... An example: Aberdonians say 'quine' for girl and 'loon' for boy..... 'laddie and lassie' in my neck of the woods... |
| Posted by: Macerca 08-Dec-2003, 04:36 PM |
| Thank you very much |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 08-Dec-2003, 05:03 PM |
| On accents and the way they are spoken.. I can only really talk on Aberdonian, Westcoast/Glasgow region and Fife. And to me it sounds awfully slow when ppl from the basic Glasgow region talk, Fife seems to be much much faster. I can give you the ISBN of a book I got of my boyfriend when he first visited Macerca. It's a dictionary and they include all sorts of words from different regions, also saying where they come from. If you are interested I'll send you the exact details and ISBN by pm |
| Posted by: barddas 18-Feb-2004, 09:08 AM |
| I am just wanting to put this back towards the top... ( yes, I am being a wee bit selfish...) Cheers |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 18-Feb-2004, 10:31 AM |
| hehehe... I think it's a good one anyway |
| Posted by: Knightly Knight 27-Apr-2004, 08:54 PM |
| Catriona and All Greetings, Great topic. Ive followed a bunch of the sites posted. Ive learned a lot about the subject through this thread. Im mystified. My question was How can any languages with a long and proven history just be "pushed out" of existence? Then I remembered the long list of languages of American Natives in this country which had been forbidden to speak for hundreds of years. I see the only solution to the situation is just what you are doing. Education and refusal to let the languages die. I have an Osage Indian and Cherokee Indian in my geanealogy but I can't speak one word in either language. Keep up the good work and Congratulations on your efforts.  |
| Posted by: Catriona 28-Apr-2004, 01:58 AM |
| Why, thank you, KK.... The Scots 'languages' (I'm not going to get into any arguments re whether they are merely dialects of English or separate languages... although, naturally, I believe the latter is true!) won't die. There has been a real resurgence in interest. There are many, many Lallans/Doric/Auld Scots sites which are springing up all the time. As most Scots did not have the Gaelic as their 'native' language, it is important to those of us that live, or come from the Lowlands, should preserve our speech patterns for future generations. World-wide TV programmes, promoting a kind of mid-Atlantic speech pattern has meant that many of the old words and phrases are lost, but we are certainly doing our best to ensure that the rot goes no further! |