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> Religious Debate
Elspeth 
Posted: 20-Oct-2003, 03:53 PM
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PS

Here's a thought.

Maybe those of us who profess a spiritual nature can stop bickering about our differences and join together to make this world a better place. Then maybe I can sleep at night again.

Sorry if I offended anyone, but while we are debating our differences, the wish to destroy, with no remorse, is present in the hearts of too many out there. Wouldn't it be more constructive to do something about that?





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Compassion is the sometimes fatal capacity for feeling what it is like inside somebody else's skin. It is the knowledge that there can never really be any peace and joy for me until there is peace and joy finally for you too.
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Keltic 
Posted: 20-Oct-2003, 09:17 PM
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QUOTE (maryellen @ Oct 20 2003, 06:27 PM)
I don't understand how it says, thou shalt not kill, and its okay to murder babies or people in jail.

Depending on which bible you use, thou shall not kill (argument for vegetarianism) is also written as "Thou shall not kill without just cause" and "Thou shall not murder" which would obviously excuse self defense and depending on politics and beliefs, capital punishment.


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McHaggis 
Posted: 20-Oct-2003, 09:26 PM
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One must almost be a scholar with a background in Hebrew, Aramaic and New Testament Greek to understand The Bible in its oldest forms before the translators got in on the act. If I remember right (and I am NOT fluent in Hebrew and the others though I do have a minor in religion) that commandment was "Thou shalt not Murder" in its original form.

Grab a copy of "The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible" or some other scholarly tome to get back to the roots, as it were. IDB was a great resource we used in school.....but my memory of such things is waning without a little refresher....there MUST be a copy online somewhere.

And Elspeth, I agree heartily with your comment. The only downside is to get spiritual people to agree on the nature of spirituality and what that term really means and then decide on a plan of action that all can agree on.

Other than that, our hearts are generally in the same place.

RON


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"NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT"


"...A bonnie lass I will confess,
Is pleasant to the e'e,
But without some better qualities
She's no lass for me...."

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Elspeth 
Posted: 21-Oct-2003, 06:18 AM
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QUOTE (McHaggis @ Oct 20 2003, 11:26 PM)

And Elspeth, I agree heartily with your comment.  The only downside is to get spiritual people to agree on the nature of spirituality and what that term really means and then decide on a plan of action that all can agree on.

Other than that, our hearts are generally in the same place.

RON

Let's not even try to agree for you are right, it ain't ever gonna happen. We're never going to hold some big 'spirituality' convention somewhere and all end up singing (insert hymn/chant/mantra of your choice) in each other's arms.

But if we all focused more on prayers/meditations/etc and genuine compassion for each other...... Hmmm..... what could be.

For if you believe in evil, which most religions/spiritual beliefs do, in some form, then the best way it to succeed is to divide those who are against it.

Remember the council of Elrond in LOTR? That too often is us and Tolkein again showed his genius with the portrayal of how evil divides, weakens and then tries to conquer.
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McHaggis 
Posted: 21-Oct-2003, 11:07 PM
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...but is it really necessary to pray, meditate and the like to show genuine compassion for each other? I submit not....OK, at least not for me. Compassion seems to come easy.....no problem to figure out how my actions are going to affect those around me. I'm just by nature willing to help promote the common good and to stand up to evil....nature or nurture? Good parenting or good education?
Yeah, both of those..to answer my own question upon reflection..but I didn't learn to keep on the good foot in church, philosophy class or thru spells, prayers or incantantations....just good intuition and insight.....for me it comes natural.

But do what ya gotta do to keep things moving towards the good end of the scale.

Just stirring up the debate.......I'm good at that.

RON

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Elspeth 
Posted: 22-Oct-2003, 07:32 AM
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QUOTE (McHaggis @ Oct 22 2003, 01:07 AM)
...but is it really necessary to pray, meditate and the like to show genuine compassion for each other? I submit not....OK, at least not for me.

Stirring back.....

I wrote those as two seperate ideas joined in the sentence with an and - not linked in some sort of cause and effect.

Yep, there are those who pray/mediatate etc. who are real sob's and those who never do who are the kindest souls you'd ever want to meet.

But here is a question..... Is life just about being kind?
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Shadows 
Posted: 22-Oct-2003, 08:38 AM
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QUOTE (Elspeth @ Oct 22 2003, 09:32 AM)

But here is a question..... Is life just about being kind?

In all religions there are two great laws:

Revere god ( no matter how you see him or her )

and

Do unto others as you would have done unto you ( rule of three in wicca ).

If that does not say it all then nothing does!

I was against a debate on religion from the start, a sharing of ideas without pressure is more inline with my thoughts.


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I support the separation of church and hate!

IMAGINATION - the freest and largest nation in the world!


One can not profess to be of "GOD" and show intolerence and prejudice towards the beliefs of others.

Am fear nach gleidh na h–airm san t–sith, cha bhi iad aige ’n am a’ chogaidh.
He that keeps not his arms in time of peace will have none in time of war.

"We're all in this together , in the parking lot between faith and fear" ... O.C.M.S.

“Beasts feed; man eats; only the man of intellect knows how to eat well.”

"Without food we are nothing, without history we are lost." - SHADOWS


Is iomadh duine laghach a mhill an Creideamh.
Religion has spoiled many a good man.

The clan MacEwen
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McHaggis 
Posted: 22-Oct-2003, 11:10 AM
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Sorry, Elspeth, I have to admit to a knee-jerk reaction towards the generic New Age vocabulary.....went to a massage school where there was more emphasis placed on meditation and good vibes than the actual physical mechanics of massage techniques and I was pretty much an outcast for favoring the latter over the former. I was a personal fitness trainer looking to improve my sports massage technique and all I got was a pseudo-religious warm and fuzzy approach to the craft: candles and gongs and boring music.

So...my bad! Just my iconoclastic side coming out.

RON
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RavenWing 
Posted: 22-Oct-2003, 11:23 AM
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How about this thought? The reasons why there are so many differnces and denominations and interpretations are because of this: Religion is a man-made concept


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Religion is for those who are afraid of going to Hell. Spirituality is for those who have already been there.
- Anonymous
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Elspeth 
Posted: 22-Oct-2003, 02:48 PM
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QUOTE (Shadows @ Oct 22 2003, 10:38 AM)


Shadows,

I just posed a question for the purpose of discussion only. I am not sure where in my words you heard a challenge or call to debate. It was a question because I was curious what others thought. A invitation to share ideas. I'm curious. Curiousity is not a challenge of another's belief system. IT IS CURIOSITY! I was posing a question with the intent of sharing ideas without pressure.

And McHaggis, you lost me completely. But I have to admit it gives me a great big chuckle to be referred to as New Age in any way. biggrin.gif As Buggs Bunny says - He don't know me very well do he? There is definately a misunderstanding here somewhere.

You know all I was trying to say at first was that I wish we could focus more on what's good than differences.

And as to religion being a man made concept, I suppose that depends upon your belief system and your definition of religion.
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McHaggis 
Posted: 22-Oct-2003, 05:35 PM
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Again, like the others, Elspeth, we are in agreement......what I wish is that folks would reward goodness twice as much as they punish badness.....us good guys don't get enough credit.

And as far as New Age.....that's too overused and I wish I had a better phrase...( I coined "Neo-Tituba" after the West Indian slave woman who got things rolling with her incantations and fortune-telling and influencedthe girls that saw a witch every time they turned around back there in 1600s Salem, Mass.... .I live in an area where every other person is "spiritual" and a massage therapist. It's almost comical there's so many, don't know if that's because San Luis Obispo is a college town or a haven for old hippies who came here and never went home or what. Many, many liberals but not as goofy as say, the Republics of Santa Monica or Berkeley.

BTW: I'm more centrist than either liberal or consevative, if that makes a difference......extremeism in either direction kinda bugs me.

RON
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Elspeth 
Posted: 22-Oct-2003, 07:16 PM
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I perscribe to the goofy traditionalist view myself. wacko.gif

That is I'm an old fashioned traditionalist at heart, but goofy enough to find most of it all a bit comical. We humans are always good for a laugh. smile.gif

And ants, termites and bees bug me. Can you tell the kids are finally in bed? I'm freeeeeee......................
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High Plains Drifter 
Posted: 22-Oct-2003, 07:51 PM
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QUOTE
Again, like the others, Elspeth, we are in agreement......what I wish is that folks would reward goodness twice as much as they punish badness.....us good guys don't get enough credit.


Another question, Ron, you speak of rewarding goodness, who's definition of good are we going to use? What one person may consider a good thing, another may consider evil. If we could all agree on what good is there would be no far right or far left, we would al be centrists. Just a thought.


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maryellen 
Posted: 22-Oct-2003, 08:26 PM
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In reply to the "do not murder"- this was the law and was interpreted later in the new testament. It not only meant, do not kill another, but also meant don't devalue others by thinking yourself superior to them or harboring anger toward them.

i thought we agreed on a previous definition of good and evil in here? maybe that was another forum... oh yeah. that is in the "are we by nature good or evil?" thread. there was a good one in there.


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Seize the time,. . .live now, make now always the most precious time. Now will never come again- Star Trek TNG

"The report of my death was an exaggeration."
-Mark Twain, After reading his own obituary, June 2, 1897

If you ever have a world, plan ahead, don't eat it! - Star Trek TNG
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Richard Bercot 
Posted: 22-Oct-2003, 08:46 PM
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QUOTE (High Plains Drifter @ Oct 22 2003, 09:51 PM)

Another question, Ron, you speak of rewarding goodness, who's definition of good are we going to use? What one person may consider a good thing, another may consider evil. If we could all agree on what good is there would be no far right or far left, we would al be centrists. Just a thought.

As a response that I have experienced.

I went to my Wife's Grandparents Church for a Dinner for their youth. While we were there, they had brought in Youth Group from a College to sing to the congregation. Afterwards they split up and sat at the different tables visiting. The topic of the Blizzard of '78 came up. When I was asked what I was doing during the event, I told them I was out with others getting food and supplies for those who need them so that thet may get by, when one of the singers told me that I was going to Hell for what I had done. When I had questioned why would I for helping another, his response was; "God wanted them dead and I interfered with his work." my response was that if God wanted them dead, he would have stopped me from getting to their home, Right? He had no answer for that.

He had thought I done something Evil while I was thought I had done something Good.

Who was right and who was wrong? Who can say. All I know is if the same situation like that came up again, I would do the same thing.


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May your days be filled with Merriment and May you walk in Balance with Creator.

"For every day you fish, you live another day"
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