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| Celtic Radio Community > Philosophy & Science > Euthanasia |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 16-Dec-2003, 10:11 PM |
| Since most of the topics in here seem to evolve aroun religion and god in my eyes I will start a new topic about something that interests me from my human side as well as in a scientific/philosophical sense I guess everyone knows what Euthanasia is, so I won't have to explain it. My mother used to work as a district nurse, and mostly her day was filled by elderly and old people with sometimes terminal illnesses. Since I accompanied her often when I was a child I got in touch with death fairly often over the course of my life, since my mother told me when people that I knew died. Even at an early stage (my mother would never let me see the things she did, she only let my talk to the people or hold hands sometimes) I sort of recognised that for some people it was good to die, since they suffered enormously under different circumstances. When I finally got older I decided to write an article in our local newspaper about this which started quite a controvery in the little town where I grew up. In writing this article I informed myself about Hospices, help to die and what others might have against it. In my wallet, attached to my passport is a little notice, dated and signed, that if I have a bad accident I don't want to be held alive by machines, just so that people can sit at the bed of a comatose patient and suffer. I also carry an organ-donator pass around with me. I will not need them anymore once I am dead, but someone else might. I think now that when I am maybe becoming terminally ill, I would rather die sooner than after machines kept me alive for months and months, maybe even years. Another example I have seen in my Great Grandparents, they were a happy couple, living in a house they built with their own hands and often sitting in their garden, on their bench and holding hands. My greatgrandfather fell ill, and we all thought he would have not much time left. But his heart actually began beating regularly again and he could be released out of hospital. Only 3 weeks later my Great Grandmother, who we all thought was very sturdy, died suddenly. My Great Grandfather was heartbroken, slurfing through his house, looking his actual age. Then, with 98 years, he fell ill again, (last year) and the doctors said he needed a new exit for his stomach. They did the operation and after being a week comatose he died as well, one year after my great grandmother. Was this operation necessary? He would have survived without new stomach exit as well, that was what they said, but the recommended the new one... |
| Posted by: kidclaymore 17-Dec-2003, 06:44 AM |
| I agree Aon I have left the same orders with my wife and have signed a living will. I use to take care of the elderly and have seen a lot of suffering and death. I have seen people put on machines by Drs. so the loved ones can have longer with them, but in reality it just drives up the bills. I used to fight with the Drs about this. This and so many deaths, is why I quit doing this job. |
| Posted by: maisky 17-Dec-2003, 07:23 AM |
I had Monday mornings in my younger days when I was ready to Euthanized immediately.  Actually, this is a question I had to look squarely in the face. I visited my mother who was dying of ALS, a disease which causes nearly complete paralysis and much pain. Near the end, I stood and looked down at her lying in her bed, barely alive and heavily medicated, and thought hard about how a pillow over her face would end her suffering immediately and give her release. I simply could not do it. Maybe someone else would have done differently. Good Question! |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 17-Dec-2003, 07:50 AM |
| mmh... just to throw controversy into it... would you be able to know what your mother wanted? I mean, if patients have the real wish to die, they should have the help. |
| Posted by: kidclaymore 17-Dec-2003, 07:51 AM |
| Not really Maisky, Its hard to kill even if its for a good reason. I have been there, the last person I stayed with was a 86 year old stroke victim. He had a massive stroke and was completely paralyzed, He couldn't even swollow. The doctors sent him home to die. After coming home he live 16 days without water or food. It was hard to sit there and watch him just waste away. When he finally died he was just skin and bones and he was a big man before the stroke. We gave him morphin under the tongue to keep him comfortable. some times I though it would be so simple just to put a little extra morphin in and let him go, but I couldn't do it ether. I had been with this man for six years and we were real close, but watching him die was just like watching my father die all over again. thats why I quit doing this type of work. |
| Posted by: kidclaymore 17-Dec-2003, 07:55 AM |
| I think my mother would have wanted me or someone to do it. She had a stroke also, she just laid in bed and watch the walls. she live about a nine months after the stroke. |
| Posted by: Elspeth 17-Dec-2003, 08:23 AM |
| This truly is one of life's toughest questions. Especially now that medications make it possible to provide a pain-free escape from the pain with just an extra little dose of morphine. Last week I had to have our old cat put to sleep. She was in a state like the man kidclaymore described. A tumor had her tongue immobilized and she couldn't swallow. I couldn't just let her starve to death. I couldn't help sympathizing as I watched her slip away with all who watch loved ones suffer and their desire to give that same release. But that is a line I know I could never cross. There are things in life that make no sense and just seem cruel. But there are some rules I can't break. And I don't want to live in a society that no longer follows those rules. |
| Posted by: Raven 17-Dec-2003, 08:43 AM |
| Sorry Aon but I think that this should be considered as it would apply to many people. ie what they think happens after the body dies. For many it is a release into a much better existence. (so this is a spiritual question for many) I personally would not want to be kept alive by machines or by drugs in a comatose state (if I actually make it to old age) On the other hand I have a small glimse into the emotional strain on the one who must make the decision. It is very hard. I had a dog that I had for 12 years that suffered a stroke and went into a coma back in Feb. Even though she had been in a coma at the animal hospital and they said there was no hope of her coming out of the coma, plus when they discontinued anti siezure drugs she started having seizures almost continuously is was difficult to make the decision to have her put down and it still haunts me emotionally sometimes 10 months later. I think this is a hard issue no matter how rational it may seem. I think people are kept alive and comatose more for the living and the hope that they may get their loved one back on some level than anything. |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 17-Dec-2003, 09:30 AM |
| I know very much that it is an emotional topic as well. I don't know if I would have the strength to kill somebody even though he/she begged for it. I have never been in that situation and I don't know what I would do if I am. It depends on our personal views as well as on our empathic abilities. I can understand you kid, I used to work for a family (doing the heavy shopping once a week) and the husband had a stroke, he was paralyzed badly, but he was sort of able to communicate in a way. Then, half a year ater I started working for them, he had another stroke. He lay in bed dieing slowly because he could not swallow nor communicate in any way. But then, when we do it with animals, why not with humans? I am sure that animals have a being, an awareness as well. We say it is merciful (although it is very painful.. our first dog developed an not-operable tumor, she was waisting away and at some point we decided that it was better for her as well as for us if she was getting the injection that would end her life sleeping. Our Vet at that time did it in our house, at her favourite spot in her basket next to the telly. It was sad but just theoretical, can we say okay it's better for an animal and then keep humans alive with machines and heavy medication? (all in the case that there is no hope whatsoever). |
| Posted by: myriad 17-Dec-2003, 10:37 AM |
| IMPORTANT INFORMATION: For anyone who does not want to be kept alive by machines or have other such wishes about their end of life rights, you need to contact an attorney and have it put legally in writing. I am not an attorney. I took a class about law in my profession as a social worker. There is a thing called an Advance Directive for Health Care here in the states and it enables you to state what kinds of life-sustaining treatment you wish to receive in the future under certain circumstances. If I remember correctly the specifics may change a bit from state to state. But It will only be carried out when you are no longer able to make health care decisions for yourself and are in either terminal condtions or persistent unconsciousness. Otherwise, if you are still conscious and able to make a decision about treatment you will be asked. The reason these are so important is because even if you say to someone you trust, "please pull the plug," they may not have the "legal right" to and they may be fought by relatives or others in doing so. In fact really strange cases have come up where it has been fought and people have been maintained by feeding tubes or ventihilators for multiple years. Some of these forms can be found on-line. I will try to get the sites in here soon. Not so important information: Sorry if I sound unemotional about the topic. But I can't say that I would know how it feels at all. I think that when my spirit leaves my body I will not care if there is a machine connected or not and I will not care how my flesh is disposed of. However, I know that those who remain will struggle with the decisions and the pain. I plan to consider my parents and my husbands wishes, plan to write out a will and an Advance Directive and hope to make the transition a bit easier for them.  That is if they miss me at all. If I have a lengthy terminal illness I hope to utilize the Hospice services to help my family come to terms with my death. But the fortunate/unfortunate thing is that I don't know the time or hour of my death or the way that it will happen. It could be minutes from now *shivers* and I don't know it. So with all these plans to do stuff and having not done them... well nothings done. |
| Posted by: JaneyMae 17-Dec-2003, 11:42 AM | ||
As I am Maisky's sis, I too was there for our mom's death. Actually, I was there all the time. Maisky had to see her 3 days before her death, 2 days before the coma. It was truly heartbreaking. She didn't want to be there either. She had been an artist and a very creative woman who loved playing golf. She spent the last bit of her life dreaming of all the things she had once done as the disease ate her alive. The last thing to go with her form of ALS is the brain. I couldn't put the pillow over her face. I didn't even have the courage or the heart to give her too much morphine. There was no autopsy as her dying was already on record. No one would have known. But she was my mom. I believe with all my heart and soul that euthenasia should be legal and practiced!! We don't let our beloved pets suffer. Why should the people we love have to suffer?  |
| Posted by: tartangal 17-Dec-2003, 01:55 PM |
| It seems to me that there actually seem to be two questions here. One is ,do I want my ( or my loved one) life prolonged by artificial means? The other is do I want to be killed if I am terminally ill or suffering? The first is not euthanasia although I suppose it may be classed as passive euthanasia. The second is euthanasia. As a health care worker I have been asked to make someone die sooner than they would do. This was asked of me by caring relatives who had been doing a bedside vigil. This is not something that I would do but i tried very hard to not leave the family with a sense of guilt about having asked. Tne patient involved was unconcious and close to death. I feel that in a way it was the relatives who suffered most , having to watch someone they loved die.But was that a reason to end this lady's life early, I didn't and don't think so. My feeling is that with medications available, that no one has to die in pain. It only makes me want to push for better palliative and hospice care. From a personal point of view, I have come to believe that just as life and birth are processes which we must go through, then so is death. It is something that is undertaken alone and our loved ones and carers can only provide a supportive role. For some it is too difficult to see their loved one go through . From a professional point of view, I wonder how I would gain the trust of the weak and seriously ill if they knew that I was also involved in taking the lives of those who are judged not to have quality of life?The nurse patient relationship relies on the trust between us. Just some of my thoughts and opinions. |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 17-Dec-2003, 06:20 PM |
I hoped you would reply, jules  I spent quite some time thinking about the fact of not dieing in pain, but what about those that die consciously? I know that I have to contact an lawyer/solicitor/ or attourney, the letter stating that is in the file with my important documents and the ones closest to me know where it is,. |
| Posted by: Elspeth 17-Dec-2003, 09:18 PM | ||
Beautifully said. Some things about life are painful and seemingly unnecessary, and yet, it is still part of life. |
| Posted by: tartangal 18-Dec-2003, 06:52 AM | ||
IS being awake and aware necessarily a bad thing before you die? Is it really that we as loved ones find it too difficult to watch ? I wonder. As for prolonging life unnecessarily and with no hope , then I have no problem with not being attached to drips and feeding pumps. In my opinion, this is artificially prolonging a life which would have ended and is merely providing a delay. Some people do linger, but does that mean that it is not yet their time to die?If we ensure that they do not suffer,then why would we shorten their lifespan. In saying this , I recognise that I am not speaking as one who has watched the person closest to me die and so my opinion is not the only one valid. |
| Posted by: Elspeth 18-Dec-2003, 07:09 AM |
| I agree tartangal. We all suffer and we all die. It is part of life. When someone suffers and we feel there is something we can do to help, then we question our roles. But are we trying to alleviate the suffering of the dying or our suffering of having to watch? Again, there are lines I don't think we were meant to cross. |
| Posted by: Celeste of the Stars1 18-Dec-2003, 01:31 PM | ||
I have been asking this question since my nana passed. (I was in 10th grade) She had alzhiemers. (SP?) She thought my older sister was my mom and my younger sister was my older sister. My little brother and I didn't even exsist. The night she died my mom and I sat by her bed. My mom read her the bible and sang her favorite hyms and prayed for God to take her so she wouldn't suffer any more. That was the worst thing I'd ever experienced. I kept asking the doctors why they wouldn't give her anything for her pain. They told me it would be too tempting for them to give her "too much". Just one more reason I hate doctors. |
| Posted by: maggiemahone1 18-Dec-2003, 05:39 PM |
| I have taken care of elderly folks for 11 years on and off. I started taking care of my mother-in-law and it wasn't an easy job. She had to have 24 hour care, which my husband and I decided to do rather than put her in a nursing home. She was in a semi coma and had a feeding tube. She was DNR(Do Not Resuscitate) my husband had to make this decision. As far as her quality of life, she didn't talk, she couldn't sit, stand, eat, she just laid for days and days. It was very hard physically and mentally, but never once did I think it was up to me to stop her feedings or end her life anyway, nor did my husband. We were there for her when she needed us most in her life. I didn't give her life and I certainly wasn't going to take it! She died peacefully at my home Dec. 14, 1996 and I'm just thankful that I had the health and strength to take care of her. maggiemahone1 |
| Posted by: maisky 19-Dec-2003, 08:23 AM |
| This is a very good, very pertinant topic. It seems to me that with modern pain medication, the issue is one of "dying with dignity" rather than dying in pain. Whether to "help a loved one die" is a tough moral question that we must each face for ourselves. I am glad to see that all the posts are dealing with the issue on a personal level rather than copping out with quotations of legal or "religious" answeres. truely my friends in this forum are thoughtful people. |
| Posted by: tartangal 19-Dec-2003, 08:33 AM |
| Maggie, My mum cared for my gran for 11 years. She lived with us during this time. She had dementia and didn't know who we were. I think she thought that my mum was her mum because she looked after her . Despite this she knew she was loved and well cared for. She was happy in her own way. She died at home with all her children and grandchildren about her. If I died in this way, I would be more than happy. My mum too found it a hard and exhausting role . She was given the opportunity on several occasions to have my gran placed in care but did not want this. On several occasions I was asked by the doctor if we wanted to actively treat my gran. (the first being about 8 years before she died) Our answer was always an unequivocal yes.It was not our decision when she should die. When asked my mother states that all that she hoped for happened for my gran . That is that she went when it was her time , at home , surrounded by people who loved her. |
| Posted by: JaneyMae 20-Dec-2003, 11:12 AM | ||
I must agree with Maisky here. Glad we are approaching this from a human stance rather than a religious one. I rescently filled out my "living will" due to the nature of many of the tests I've been going through. Don't want to face any of that. Sorry my family would have to, tho. As I said before, this is such a difficult thing for the family to face. I couldn't "help" my mom. We shouldn't have to be faced with watching those we love suffer. I say it again, we don't let out pets suffer why much we let those we love suffer? |
| Posted by: Elspeth 22-Dec-2003, 12:02 PM | ||
What came to my mind as an answer to this question is from a Judeo-Christian standpoint and therefore has meaning for me. In the beginning God gave man dominion over the animals. I see that permission to use them for our needs of nourishment and a responsibility to take care of them. So, when an animal in our care is suffering, it is our responsibility to do what we can for them. We were not given the same responsibility for other humans. I think that us where that line comes in for me. That is God's responsibility. On a personal note, I would never want anyone to take my life, no matter how much I was suffering, because I wouldn?t want to place that guilt upon them. When we had to put my first dog to sleep, I had a lot of guilt, even though he was old, unable to function and in pain. I dreamed for years of him coming back and was overwhelmed with guilt each time. That would be too much to ask a person I loved to take upon themselves. |
| Posted by: Aon_Daonna 22-Dec-2003, 01:21 PM |
| what is Juedo-christian? *puzzled* |
| Posted by: JaneyMae 22-Dec-2003, 03:38 PM | ||
Unfortunately man has the power to keep people alive so they can suffer. My mom was kept around when she wasn't interested. Her pain level was greater than her morphine and she had to sit and watch the world go by. She couldn't even go to the bathroom without being taken and tended. That's wrong. We have machines to keep us living after our brains are gone. Isn't that going a bit too far? That's farther, in my humble opinion, that God intended. I am a devout Christian with an education of many faiths. I do not believe that God intended for us to make each other suffer as we do. Thank God for the right to have different opinions  Okay, I relinquish the soap box to the next fellow lover of life. |
| Posted by: Elspeth 22-Dec-2003, 05:51 PM |
| But isn't there a difference between machines keeping someone alive and taking a life? I don't consider taking someone off a machine the same as euthanasia. One is passively letting what is to happen happen and there is no reason families cannot make that decision. The other is actively taking a life and that crosses a line for me. And Aon, by Judeo-Christian, I meant coming from the old testament and therefore beliefs shared by both Christians and Jews. |
| Posted by: JaneyMae 22-Dec-2003, 06:04 PM |
| Yes, there is a difference. I got ahead of myself while chasing me to keep up. If you have never sat at a bedside for months and months watching someone die you cannot grasp the concept of euthanasia. To me that is the inhumane thing to do. I could not administer a lethal dose of morphine or put a pillow over my mom's face even tho she begged for something, anything. I was the coward. She was the brave one to be forced to edure such pain and being incapable of even wiping her own bottom. She couldn't even feed herself but she knew exactly what was going on. The brain was the last function to go. My God wouldn't want that for his children. |
| Posted by: High Plains Drifter 27-Dec-2003, 05:27 PM |
| I have some really mixed feelings on this subject. I have a daughter with some pretty serious health problems. She is wheelchair bound, deaf, and legally blind all resulting from allergies to antibiotics and infections. She has survived a condition called malignant hypothermia which almost always fatal. at that time she had a fever of 108 that lasted for over four hours. She came out with hearing loss but little other damage and that is almost unheard of. She has lost the use of her legs from bone infections, she has lost most of her sight due to allergic reactions to antibiotics. Some would say she hasn't much to live for and that her quality if life isn't very good. Those would question the wisdom of using resources to help her. Those who question her use to society don't know her. She has got a Master of Divinity degree since being disabled and is currently attending law school while raising an adopted daughter who is also wheelchair bound and mentally challenged. She works as a paralegal for a nonprofit disability advocacy group. She has more guts than any other young woman that I know. On the other hand, at the same time my daughter first became ill, my father-in-law suffered an heart attack at home, the paramedics on the ambulance placed him on a ventilator and transported him to the hospital. He had a flat EEG and had an advance directive stating that he wished no heroic efforts to keep him alive in such a situation. My state law however says that once the treatment is started that it must contiue for seven days. We had to sit at his bedside for a week watching a body that was kept breathing and heart beating by a machine because the advanced directive was not availble when the ambulance arrived. Sometimes our laws concerning medical issues are archaic. |
| Posted by: JaneyMae 28-Dec-2003, 11:20 AM | ||
One of my degrees is in Special Education. I've worked with many a student who has a powerful brain and wonderful heart when their body just isn't cooperating. The struggles you and she have gone through have been difficult as best but your love has grown and she is a wonderful person with a very difficult life. She's not the soul who should ever be looked at for the big 'e'. Never! However, what your father-in-law and family had to go through is another thing. That's not right. This just zaps the family financially, spiritually, and physically. Not right, MacGee! I agree, it is a terribly difficult subject.  |
| Posted by: tartangal 29-Dec-2003, 09:08 AM | ||
Hpd, Your father-in-law was kept alive by artificial means- without the ventilator would he continue to live? This seems to me to be a different thing to euthanasia which is to carry out an activity which will unnaturally or prematurely end someone's life. |
| Posted by: freekenny 25-Jul-2004, 01:06 AM |
| O'siyo, *once again making note of the 'sign' enter at your own risk*  Euthanasia in my eyes equals 'Death with Dignity'...You honor and cherish loved ones and friends while they are 'well' why not do the same thing in their time of need and times of troubled health? I say, 'bless those Angels that are willing to assist us with passing over to the next plane'...I volunteered with Hospice for over a year while in college and I told myself I would never go through what I had to see so many of our 'patients' go through~ That is anything but dignity in my eyes~  I have a living will that states no matter what, DNR and absolutely no machines to keep this shell alive..after all if my body is that 'far gone' my mind is already at peace on the next plane of 'life'~  ~~Sty-U  |
| Posted by: BluegrassLady 16-Aug-2004, 09:46 PM |
| The only experience I have had with this subject was with my mother-in-law over 20 years ago. She was a wonderful person with a love of life. After she had a major stroke, they found cancer in the brain. Shortly afterwards, she had another stroke that left her paralyzed and without the ability to communicate. It was heartbraking to watch . Even tho we knew what she wanted done, there had been no advance legal arrangements made and it wasn't until after her kidneys had failed that my father-in-law made the difficult decision to take her off the machines. I remember my husband standing by her hospital bed telling her that he loved her and that it was okay for her to let go of life. Both of my parents (each now in their 84th year) have made out living wills, stating their wishes and making me responsible for carrying them out.. They have also given me power of attorney. The thought of that responsibility scares me. I have no idea of how I will beable to decide what to do when the time comes. I just hope that I am strong enough to follow their directives. Then I will leave the rest in God's hands. I am the youngest of three and do not know how my sister or brother will feel when the time comes. For now I thank God that both my parents still enjoy good health and are able to live their lives the way they want to. My husband and I have made living wills and given each other power of attorney. That's the best I can do for now. |