Loss Of Faith, loss of love?

[stoirmeil]

I think a lot of it hinges on whether he's consciously aware of what he is doing (including taking unwarranted refuge behind scripture, narrowly interpreted), or whether he can be made aware and accept that some of his position may have to change (whether or not he even decides to stay with the girl -- for his own sake).

Here's another example, and from a different faith. I had forgotten about these people, who are friends of mine. They are well into their sixties now, but this crisis occurred when they were in their thirties and married with a couple of kids. I'll call them Sid and Hannah.

Both of them were nice secular Jewish kids born in the late 30s -- a whole generation of American Jews with traditions like holidays and foodways, but no particular observance (no keeping kosher, etc.) Sid is a very good jazz pianist, and made a nice living for them. You have an idea what the life is -- club dates, social events, late working hours and stuff. Now, Sid is an extraordinarily decent guy and was never into the wilder side of the life. But it's an environment that's not particularly compatible with religious observance, especially the Friday and Saturday working opportunities where observant Jews keep the sabbath.

Hannah became a great deal more observant -- in fact, what you would call Orthodox in practice -- after her mother died. A deep, sincere personal change, rather sudden. As you may know, new "converts" to Jewish practice, whether or not they are Jews by birth, tend to go overboard and are just not very relaxed about it. It involves radical changes in the way a house (especially a kitchen) is kept; scheduling of all kinds, and even the times in which a woman is available to her husband for sex. Well -- the whole thing rocked the marriage pretty badly for a while. Sid's as deeply committed to his soul as a musician as Hannah is to her religious practice. Neither one was willing or even able to give up what amounted to essential spiritual practice for the other.

What eventually pulled them out of it was this: Not the kids, as you might think, but that they were each other's best of all possible friends. The compromise was absolutely necessary, because that was at the bottom. They were already "yoked," as it were, and the other circumstances were a level up from the bedrock fact of it. It was a lot of work, it took years, and they and the kids were far from happy for some time, but they gradually worked it out where he keeps his professional life and schedule with no guff from her, and she keeps her home and herself kosher and he respects it utterly.

Easy, you say? Why didn't they just do that in the first place? No it's not easy, either for an Orthodox Jew or for one who is not, but has to live with one. It's in your face every day. And both of them were getting loads of well meaning advice from their respective sides of the fence, that they would be better off letting it go and moving on. And for many couples, maybe even the majority of cases, that might well be true.

But they stuck it out. It's one of the best marriages I know about. They don't just tolerate each other's choices, they are proud of them. She may be the only Orthodox woman you'll see at a Saturday night club date in town after the sabbath is over (dressed to the nines, wig and all, as Orthodox women wear, and drinking bottled water). He is extremely proud of her learning, because she is a keen student of Jewish law (both of them have minds like a razor, and that never changed for a minute. It's a huge part of their mutual attraction.). The two boys? One observant, one not, and their choices were fairly obvious early on. No pressure either way, ever.

All four of them are crazy about each other. But I've heard the war stories about how much work it took, and I don't think everyone would be up to it. It could so easily have gone otherwise. Plenty of divorces have resulted from midlife "conversions" of this kind among Jews.

[ShadowDarkFyre]

The same has resulted among marriages of other beliefs as well. And you're right, none of it is easy, especially when you're coming back from a particularly hard fall. It's like falling into a pit and trying to climb up sides that are greased down. I've even heard outsiders to such situations say, "I'd cut my losses and leave her/him if I were you." It's easy to say that if your heart and feelings aren't woven into it. That's also what makes it the most difficult in my opinion.Being careful of the heartstrings when fighting such battles. What I like to call "carrying precious cargo through a warzone" .

[Elspeth]

Actually, now that I think of it.... I'll be facing this sort of thing down the road.
I have always, always wanted to live in the country and for one reason or another, I've always been trapped in suburbia. I promise myself one day I will fulfill my lifelong dream.
But it is my dream, not my husband's. He doesn't have dreams, goals, visions. He floats along through life.

Will I forever have to stay trapped living where I don't want to be or will he move where he doesn't want to be or will be go our separate ways?

The answer does seem to be what is most important to you.

In the first example, the young man was claiming his way of practicing his religion was most important. In the second, the Jewish couple found their relationship was more important enough to find ways around a quite difficult dilemna.

"Where your treasure is, so shall your heart be."

[ShadowDarkFyre]

a compromise...

(nods)

In everything there must be a balance. That goes double for relationships. Especialyl marriages.

[stoirmeil]

Do you think there is ever anything that is inherently almost impossible to strike a balance or compromise about?

[Elspeth]

There are DEFINATELY things that cannot be compromised. A young couple I know married last year. He wanted to live in the country, she the city. She suggested they compromise and live in the suburbs and his response was 'So both of us can be unhappy?'

We all have non-negotionables. If our partner does not feel the same way, a marriage suffers and may not be able to last. One woman I know said her non-negotionable was faithfullness. Other couples weather infidelity. For me a non-negotible was children. I would not have married a man who did not want children. I also finally got to the point where I could not tolerate his drinking anymore. On this issue, after 20 years of compromising everything I believed in, there was no longer any room for compromise. And every compromise only prolonged the problem and eroded my soul. Finally, it came to he either quit or left.

If a people do not wish to live the same life, do not share the same core beliefs, then it is best they not be married. It doens't mean you don't love the person, respect them or think they are wrong. It means you don't want to share your life with them. Don't want to live the life they want to live. Some things cannot be compromised. I once nievely thought it could be but now I know better. Home needs to be a haven from the world. I now know how all-encompassingly important your choice of life mate is. In Life's Little Instruction Book the author couseled to choose wisely because from your spouse will come 90% or your happiness and your unhappiness.

A partner needs to be a haven from the world, not one more compromise. Homes are built when couples are yoked together pulling the same direction.

In the orgional senerio, the young man has a right to choose what kind of life he wants to live and who he wants to share it with. He just should take repsonsibiliby for his choices and not blame God.

[robert553]

I agree with Elspeth - your life mate is important. The type of person you are, your values and way of life is important. If your mate won't compromise and meet you halfway- then there will constantly be problems arising over little things. Your religious beliefs should be a way of life and people you meet should be able to tell how you are as soon as they meet you. What you see should be what you get. That helps in relationships alot. Then there is no hidden surprises. Sometimes a compromise is not feasible so bare it all at the beginning.

[Shadows]

A loss of faith or love...

One should never look at it as a loss, but rather as a growing of understanding and tolerence.

How you choose to live and your relationships with those you love are an ever changing dynamic...

But as in all things it takes more then one to complete the circle, either in religious beliefs or life matters.

This is the main problem with our modern society, we need to work harder at relationships and beliefs and not take the modern copouts that are so easy.

Nothing in life is easy, it takes work and understanding!

[John Clements]

I don’t think she’s lost her faith. I think she probably just found it. That is faith in her self. So I would suggest she say good buy to him, and find another love.
It’s a tough road, with all the years of brain washing she’ll have to overcome, but with faith in herself she can’t go wrong.

Just off the top of my head,
JC