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Celtic Radio Community > Kirk and Chapel > The Celtic Cross


Posted by: WizardofOwls 08-Jan-2005, 11:43 AM
Hello my Christian brothers and sisters!

I need your opinions on something I recently found. I bought a beautiful Celtic Coss necklace recently. I've always found the Celtic Cross to be a beautiful reminder of both my Christian and Celtic heritages. But there was a card attached to the necklace that makes me wonder if the Celtic Cross is truly a Christian symbol at all.

Here is what the card says:

Celtic Cross

The Cross is a symbol of the redemption of the world's sins through the death of the Lord Jesus. The Celtic Cross is much older than that. It shows a circle on a cross. The four quarters it forms point to the four directions. To the North lies wisdom, silence, Winter and death. To the East lies rebirth, youth, Spring and growth. To the South lies vitality, vigor, Summer and strength. To the West lies knowledge, experience Autumn and guidance. The circle which connects them is the cycle of eternal returns of all these things. The Celtic Cross symbolizes both the love of Christ, and the ways of the ancient religion.

Well? Opinions, please!

Posted by: MDF3530 08-Jan-2005, 12:21 PM
My interpretation of the Celtic Cross:

The crucifix: a symbol of faith.
The circle: a symbol of unity.

Having faith in something unifies people.

Posted by: Keltic 08-Jan-2005, 12:28 PM
Having worked in and amongst Celtic artists for over a decade now, I have heard so many different personal theories about symbolism in Celtic art. At least the artists know that they are only theories. Unfortunately, the public buys a piece of jewellery or art with information on the meaning and what they don't realize, in most cases, the information is the belief of the producer of the item.

Being in the Celtic jewellery industry, I will tell you that jewellers are quite often the worst offenders. A wedding ring with beautiful Celtic art will sell but a ring with beautiful Celtic art with two intertwined animals symbolizing love and faithfulness will sell many more!!!

I know artists who were told by stores that they were wholesaling to, to include symbolism or they weren't interested in carrying their work. There was a company selling ceramic Celtic jewellery that provided info on all of their items but unfortunately, they didn't research too deeply and some of the goddesses represented weren't even Celtic.

Anyways, back to the cross. I have heard theories that the center of the cross represented God and therefore, must always be a Celtic spiral design. I have heard the theory that the circle around the cross may have been used for engineering reasons. The weight of the arms of large stone crosses would break without added support which the circle would add. The top part of the circle would be for the balance of the design. I have also heard that the earlier, pre-Christian standing stones were phallic symbols on mother earth.

Through all the different beliefs and views, the only belief and view that matters is the person who is wearing the item. If you are comfortable with the Celtic Cross, the symbolism of that piece is through your eyes.

Posted by: Mailagnas maqqas Dunaidonas 08-Jan-2005, 01:07 PM
One of the more balanced explanations of the origin of the Celtic Cross I have seen may be found at http://www.celtarts.com/celtic.htm, which states, in part:
QUOTE
If the Celtic Cross borrowed a pagan sun symbol, just as the Chi-Rho borrowed the pagan imperial laurel wreath, applying these to a Christian symbol were expressions of honor and reverence that should be seen in the context of the cultures that brought them forth. There are Christians who unfortunately see these vestiges of paganism as unholy. They ought to be regarded as the reverent tributes they were as these great cultures accepted the Gospels. The Celtic Crosses made at Iona and elsewhere from the 6th century onwards were made by Christians for the Glory of God. Like much of what they did and believed, their pagan heritage influenced their art. The early Christians certainly were erecting neither phallic symbols nor pagan monuments in their own minds when they carved these splendid creations.

The circle on the ringed crosses have been explained as a symbol of eternity as long as anyone can remember. It has meant that as long as the ringed cross has had meaning as a Celtic Christian symbol. But this is only the most common of several meanings.

Posted by: Rindy1202 08-Jan-2005, 04:43 PM
This is what I came up with:

The meaning of the Celtic Cross is told in legend of Ireland's St. Patrick. He was shown a sacred standing stone that was marked with a circle. St. Patrick took this opportunity to show the union of old and new ways. He marked a cross through the circle and blessed the stone.

Slainte
Rindy

Posted by: Avonlea22 08-Jan-2005, 05:44 PM
Well, I'll put in my .02 cents worth, being non-Christian.

I've always loved Celtic crosses. Not for what they represent, but just because I think they are beautiful. I think when I finally pass on, I want to be cremated, beautiful I were to ever change my mind and decide on being buried, i'd want a Celtic cross as my headstone. To me, it shows I'm of Irish descent, and proud of it.

Posted by: dragonboy3611 08-Jan-2005, 07:05 PM
Well the christian religion wasn't the first thing out there! I don't know if celts were or what, but I believe the pagan belief was along before the christian one. Possibly this symbol started out to be pagan, but than was "converted" to be a christian icon to the eyes of certain people.

Posted by: Aaediwen 09-Jan-2005, 12:42 AM
What I have heard on this somewhat mirrors what has been said here. There are many examples of Christianity 'borrowing' pagan symbols and of Patrick's use of them to teach of Christ and of the holy trinity to the pagan peoples. What I have heard was that this is a case of Christianity borrowing the pagan symbol for the sun, and adding it to their symbol of the cross, to help make it easier for people to understand and accept Christianity.

Posted by: gwenlee 09-Jan-2005, 11:20 AM
Most of our Christian symbol have some sort of pagan orgin, and as others have said these symbols were used to explain the faith. I don't get hung on orgins unless it is outright sacreligious. Most of these things have been symbols of our Christian faith for so long that a lot of people are unaware of their orgins. If we get so prue in what is Christian then we might as well stop celebrating Christmas, and Easter. Both of these holidays have pagan orgins but we Christian have made them our holidays. So you can either get hung up on the orgins of Christian symbols or focus more on what our life as a Christian should be and how our lives reflects our beleif to those around us. With that in mind as a Christian I would wear or display a celtic cross.

Posted by: WizardofOwls 09-Jan-2005, 11:03 PM
Thanks for your posts on this topic, everyone! I still have some mixed feelings about it, but I do feel a little better after reading your thoughts! I wish I could get Tassiecelt's opinions on it!

Posted by: Madadh 10-Jan-2005, 10:12 AM
Wizard,

A lot of our christian symbols and holy days were borrowed/changed from their original meanings. This was a method that the early christian church used to help people come into the church. Some examples are the celtic cross, All Souls Day, St. Nick.

Posted by: WizardofOwls 10-Jan-2005, 10:19 AM
Okay, but using this defense, couldn't I walk around wearing a pentagram necklace? If anyone asked I could say "Oh its not a pentagram, its a reminder to me of the star of Bethlehem!" And perhaps to me it might really represent that, but does it really? Its still a pentagram!

(No offense intended to non-Christians!)

Posted by: jpmoore 10-Jan-2005, 11:28 AM
QUOTE (WizardofOwls @ 10-Jan-2005, 11:19 AM)
Okay, but using this defense, couldn't I walk around wearing a pentagram necklace? If anyone asked I could say "Oh its not a pentagram, its a reminder to me of the star of Bethlehem!" And perhaps to me it might really represent that, but does it really? Its still a pentagram!

(No offense intended to non-Christians!)

Wizard,
But if someone sees a cross, of any form, I believe they will associate it with Christ. That would not be true of a star/pentagram.

BTW, my oldest son discussed with us about getting a tattoo. His thought was to geta cross one. Even a celtic cross. He never did. But if he had, I would not have objected (too loudly at least).

Posted by: WizardofOwls 10-Jan-2005, 01:25 PM
What about the peace symbol (which is nothing more than a cross with its cross bar broken and turned upside down) or the ankh. These are crosses too, but are not typically associated with Christ.

As for Halloween, It used to be one of my favorite holidays, but once I became a Christian I have stopped ahving anything to do with it. While I do still observe Christmas and Easter, I do have my doubts about them. I will never stop observing the days for what they represent, but I am trying to drop all of the pagan-influenced details of these holidays. No Easter eggs or rabbits or other pagan fertility symbols. Christmas is more difficult since I love the tree, but I am trying to remove any and all vestiges of Santa Claus from my house. I am also against depictions of halos around Jesus' and other Biblical figures heads since they are nothing more than sun symbols derived from ancient sun-worshipping religions.

When the Jews finally made it into the Promised Land, God told them to destroy everything and keep nothing from those peoples they conquered.

I am not saying that anyone here is wrong, only that I am still confused and would like to hear more opinions!

Posted by: Tassiecelt 11-Jan-2005, 05:59 AM
Brother WizardofOwls, an interesting topic you have here!
This is an issue I have considered quite a bit.

When I was saved from the occult and came to Jesus Christ I determined that I would seek the "faith once delivered to the saints" and shun the many pagan influences that have crept into the church (mostly the Romanism).

I was influenced in my early days of faith by Ralph Woodrow's book "Babylon, Mystery Religion", which, as the name suggests, traces the many beliefs and symbols we have today back to Babylon.

The cross is one such symbol.

The church of rome has through history, placed great importance on the cross, including the necessity of making the 'sign of the cross'. They adorn walls of churches and homes. I believe it has become just one of the idolatrous objects used in worship.

Early Christians did not trust in 'the old rugged cross', rather, what was accomplished on the cross.

They saw the cross not as a virtuous symbol, but rather as the "accused tree", a device of death and shame (Heb 12:2).

There is even doubt as to whether the Lord was nailed to a cross at all, it may have been a 'stake" or single post. It matters not to me.

Now having said all that, since my interst in celtic things has grown I find myself being less "hard line" on some issues, including the cross.

In a nutshell....I don't use the cross at all, but I can appreciate the sincerity of some of the early celtic saints who found a use for it.

I'll do some more study on this.

That;s my two bob's worth

rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Tassiecelt 11-Jan-2005, 06:53 AM
I found it!!

The following are portions of a review of Ralph Woodrow's changed position on the cross, it's taken out of a larger document, I hope it makes sense.

QUOTE
Woodrow's warning against creating a new Babylon (confusion) by making legitimate Christian symbols and rites, allegedly pagan, is relevant to our investigation of the origin of the Christian Cross. We need to be aware of the danger of deciding on the pagan nature of the Christian Cross solely on the basis of its use among pagan nations.   

The Alleged Pagan Nature of the Christian Cross             

Hislop (author of "The Two Babylons") attempts to prove that  "the Christian cross was originally no Christian emblem at all, but was the mystic Tau of the Chaldeans and Egyptians-the true original form of the letter T-the initial of the name of Tammuz. . . . The Babylonian cross was the recognized emblem of Tammuz . . . That mystic Tau was marked in baptism on the foreheads of those initiated in the Mysteries, and was used in every variety of ways as a most sacred symbol."             
To strengthen his case for the pagan origin and nature of the Christians cross, Hislop appeals also to the fact that "there is hardly a pagan tribe where the cross has not been found. The cross was worshipped by the Pagan Celts long before the incarnation and death of Christ.. . . It was worshipped in Mexico for ages before the Roman Catholic missionaries set foot there, large stone crosses being erected, probably to the 'god of rain..'"               

The widespread use of the cross in the ancient world leads Hislop to conclude that the current symbol of the Cross was brought into the church after the conversion of Constantine, by the pagan multitudes, who "flocked into the church . . .  they brought along with them their predilection for the old symbol . . . Thus, by the 'sign of the cross,'  Christ has been crucified anew by those who profess to be His disciples. Now, if these things be matterof historic fact, who can wonder that, in the Romish Church, 'the sign of the cross' has always and everywhere been seen to be such an instrument of rank superstition and delusion?"             

Summing up, Hislop contends that the Christian Cross is a pagan symbol because it derives from the mystic Tau, which was the first letter "T" and emblem of the Babylonian false messiah "Tammuz," the husband of Ishtar.  Pagans allegedly brought into the Christian church the Tau "T" cross of Tammus, the false Babylonian messiah,  when they flocked into the church during the fourth century after the conversion of Constantine.    The Worship of Tammus Was Hardly Known in Rome             

Hislop's arguments for the pagan origin of the Christian Cross, are discredited by three major historical facts. First, the  mystic  Tau "T" of the  Babylonian worship of Tammus was hardly known in the Roman world when Christianity arose. The major pagan religions that competed with Christianity for the conversion of the Roman people, were the Eastern mystery religions. But the Babylonian worship of Tammus and of his wife Ishtar was not one of them.             

The mystery religions paved the way for the presentation of the Gospel by teaching people how to live the present life in order to be resurrected to a future blessed life. The most influential mystery religions were Cybele, the Great Mother and her beloved shepherd named Attis, from Asia Minor; Isis and Osiris from Egypt; Adonis from Syrian and Palestine; and the Persian Mithras who became a great savior in the Roman empire.             
The emperors Commodus (180-192), Aurelian, Diocletian, and Julian the Apostate strongly promoted Mithraism as the religion of the Roman empire.  Ernest Renan, the French philosopher and Orientalist, expressed the opinion that had the growth of Christianity been halted in the early centuries, Mithraism would have become the religion of the modern world. In the latter part of the fourth century, the new Christian Roman empire succeeded to suppress Mithraism, but, as we shall see, many of its doctrines and practices have been adopted by the Catholic church.             
Though the mystery religions were popular in the Roman empire and in time influenced certain Catholic beliefs and practices, there are no indications that they ever used the cross as the symbol of redemption through the sacrificial death of their god. Thus, no legitimate connection can be established between the symbolic meaning of the Christian Cross and its religious use by pagan religions in the Roman empire.   

The Sign of the Cross Was Used by Christians Before Constantine             

Second, contrary to Hislop's contention, the sign of the Cross was used by Christians to express their faith long before the influx of the pagans into the church in the fourth century. The funerary inscriptions of the Catacombs provide examples of the timid use of the Cross by Christians who dared to scribble a Cross sign next to the name of a deceased loved one.             

An good example is the equilateral Cross, known as Greek Cross, that is found in the Crypts of Lucina, in the Catacomb of St. Callistus. The inscription was placed over a double grave in the early part of the third century. Beneath the names of ROUPHINA [&] EIRENE is placed an equilateral Cross, as shown in this picture:                   
De Rossi, who is rightly regarded as the authority on the  iconography and epigraphy of the Catacombs, investigated the evolution of the symbol of the Cross. He found that initially the Cross was concealed in the form of an anchor or trident  and only later was shown as a plain Cross. He explains that it was introduced "as the result of studied choice rather than as a primitive symbol linking the beginnings of Christianity with Asiatic traditions. Its genesis is reflex and studied, not primitive and spontaneous. It is well known how anxiously the early Christians sought out means whereby they could at once portray and conceal the Cross of Christ"  (Rom. Sott. Crist., II, 318).             
According to De Rossi, then, the Christian Cross derives, not from pagan Asiatic traditions as Hislop contends, but from a "studied choice" of Christians to devise creative ways to portray and yet conceal the Cross of Christ.              The reason the early Christians were reluctant to openly display the Cross is simply because among the Romans the cross never had the symbolic meaning of the ancient Orient. For the Romans the cross was simply the brutal, material instrument used for the execution of slaves and the worse criminals. For them, the notion of salvation through a crucified Savior, was, as Paul puts it "foolishness" (1 Cor 1:18, 23). Apologists, like Tertulian (about 200) found it necessary to defend the Christians from the Roman charge of staurolatria, that is, cross-worshippers. Ironically the Romans added, "id colunt quod merentur," that is, "they worship that which they deserve" ((Apology 17).             
In his Apology Justin Martyr (died 165) responds to the Roman criticism of the Christian use of the Cross, by arguing that the cross is providentially found in such objects as the sails of a ship, a plough, tools, and even in the human body with outstretched arms (Apology I, 55). The Apologists defence of the Christian Cross, presupposes that the Christian use of the Cross was the object of sarcasm and scorn by the Romans. In fact, some pagans taunted Christians for worshipping a crucified donkey-god, as the following graffiti from the Palatine building in Rome (about 200) shows:                           

The fact that pagan Romans scorned both the message of the Cross and the sign of the Cross long before Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman empire, discredits Hislop's contention that the Cross is a pagan symbol brought into the church by the pagan multitudes who flocked into the church after the conversion of Constantine. The truth is that the sign of the Cross was used by Christians and was ridiculed by pagans, long before the conversion of Constantine.  How could the Roman pagans have influenced Christians to adopt the sign of the Cross, when they despised it as the shameful instrument for the execution of the worst criminals?  It is unfortunate that Hislop was so obsessed with Babylonian paganism, that he failed to examine the rejection of the symbol of the Cross by the Romans.   


In the light of the foregoing considerations, we conclude that the pagan view of the origin of the Christian Cross, promoted by Hislop and embraced by many uninformed Christians, is based on gratuitous assumptions, amply discredited by the documentary evidences.             

"Is the Christian Cross a Pagan Symbol?" Part 1
Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D.,
Retired Professor of Theology and Church History,
Andrews University


Well, my views are being turned upside down, I shall have to look more at this, sorry it's so lengthy.

Posted by: CelticRose 17-Jan-2005, 03:36 PM
QUOTE (Rindy1202 @ 08-Jan-2005, 05:43 PM)
This is what I came up with:

The meaning of the Celtic Cross is told in legend of Ireland's St. Patrick. He was shown a sacred standing stone that was marked with a circle. St. Patrick took this opportunity to show the union of old and new ways. He marked a cross through the circle and blessed the stone.

Slainte
Rindy

Rindy, I have heard this same meaning of the Celtic cross and agree with it.

Allen, I was like you at one time. Really worried about wearing the beautiful Celtic cross around my neck that a friend of mine from Ireland gave to me. I finally asked a Baptist minister about his thoughts on it and it was pretty much what others have said in here. I now wear it without any guilt, but of significance of my Lord who saved me, whether it was done on a cross, a tree or whatever. That whatever was old is now new. IMHO, I think as Christians some of us tend to become a little over zealous and legalistic about every single detail. There is freedom in Christ, remember?

Just my two cents.

Posted by: Tassiecelt 18-Jan-2005, 07:02 AM
Well put celtic Rosie biggrin.gif

This is an amazing post that has brought significant change in my thinking as a result of reviewing my own beliefs on this issue.

As I showed in previous posts, the research I'd followed on the issue for 20 years has been shown to be wrong by the author of it.

My discovery of this has confirmed a gradual change in thinking within myself of the symbolism of the cross.
It's hard to describe, but this post has brought the same liberty in me that I know you have also experienced Rose.

so to cap it all off, here is a really nice celtic jewellery (English spelling) site:
http://www.celtarts.com/index2.htm

blessings to you all

Posted by: WizardofOwls 18-Jan-2005, 09:55 AM
Hi Graham!

I am so glad that my little question here has helped you! But I'm still a little confused. I have no problem with using the cross as a symbol of my beliefs and to remind me of the sacrifice tht was given for my sake upon it. My question, though, is "In light of the information given at the beginnng of this thread, ie the card that came with my necklace, is the Celtic Cross with the symbolism described above a true Christian cross or it a pagan symbol in the guise of a Christian cross?"

Did my question make sense? I'm just not sure that the Celtic Cross and the Christian cross are the same thing....

Posted by: Aragorn 18-Jan-2005, 10:31 AM
Dear brothers Graham and Allen,

May the peace and joy of Christ fill your lifes. You both have blessed me so much, thank you. To one man it is a stick to another man it is an oar. To wear a celtic cross as a representation of your love for Christ and how through his death and resurrection we are saved and delivered from sin is a worthy thing. As Graham pointed out with that lengthy post biggrin.gif , the cross is symbolic of what Christ sacrificed for us. True there are many ideas and view about the cross but to Christians it means so much more. I wish there was a necklace that represented the resurrection of Christ or of the tomb with the stone rolled away. Then we would not be uncertain as to its meaning... biggrin.gif . Just because someone whose beliefs are different then ours writes what they think it means shouldn't detour you from wearing it. Throw away that piece of paper and wear your cross dear Allen.

Hmm, Allen a worthy addition to your post. Is the celtic Cross and the Christian Cross the same thing or are the similarities just coincidental? So, is a Cross a Cross or is there some deeper meaning associated to different ones. Hmm, lets see what Graham has to say.. I am at work and do not have too much time to research this Allen.

To one and all, you touch my heart.

With the love of Christ to all.
Jim

Posted by: Siobhan Blues 18-Jan-2005, 04:23 PM
QUOTE (WizardofOwls @ 18-Jan-2005, 10:55 AM)
I have no problem with using the cross as a symbol of my beliefs and to remind me of the sacrifice tht was given for my sake upon it. My question, though, is "In light of the information given at the beginnng of this thread, ie the card that came with my necklace, is the Celtic Cross with the symbolism described above a true Christian cross or it a pagan symbol in the guise of a Christian cross?"

Did my question make sense? I'm just not sure that the Celtic Cross and the Christian cross are the same thing....

Well, as someone of Irish ancestry I see the Celtic Cross as a Christianized symbol; the Irish had the symbol of the circle divided into 4 with its meaning which has been mentioned, and when Christianity came to the Celts they transformed the symbol into a Christian symbol.
To a Celtic/Irish Christian, the Celtic Cross means as much to me as a plain cross... and as a stubborn red-head, I refuse to let anyone (like that card) tell me its not a Christian symbol that I can wear proudly!

Hard-headed Siobhan!

Posted by: Tassiecelt 18-Jan-2005, 05:50 PM
QUOTE
Did my question make sense? I'm just not sure that the Celtic Cross and the Christian cross are the same thing....


an interesting point and a question that will lead me further into studying this interesting question.

Only this morning I recieved the latest research from Ralph Woodrow, I'll see if he addresses this issue.

My gut response is that the celtic cross is just that, the celtic variation of the plain cross. There are many variations including the St Andrews cross that adorns the saltire.

If indeed the cross is not pagan then I would happily accept all crosses except the one that shows Jesus still on the cross because as Jim said...He is risen!! amen!

Posted by: Aragorn 19-Jan-2005, 10:56 AM
Indeed Graham, Why don't they have a resurrection necklace? It is in His resurrection that our salvation was made complete. I am like you in the sense I will not wear a cross with Christ still on it. That to me represents unfinished work and He did come off the cross and Jesus now sits at the right hand of the Father. As stone sharps stone so does one person sharpen another. Please let us know what you have found brother.

Posted by: Siobhan Blues 24-Jan-2005, 09:50 AM
QUOTE (Aragorn @ 19-Jan-2005, 11:56 AM)
I am like you in the sense I will not wear a cross with Christ still on it. That to me represents unfinished work and He did come off the cross and Jesus now sits at the right hand of the Father.

Hey, I feel the same way!! All of the cross necklaces I own are empty - no figure on them. The fact that the cross is empty is the significance for me too! He is indeed Risen.

Posted by: jpmoore 24-Jan-2005, 11:17 AM
Actually, my wife will not wear any cross jewelry, simply because so many people wear crosses, and it means nothing to them. It is only jewelry.

I have a simple silver cross that I used to wear. I also have a neat wooden cross on a (wood) beaded string that is actually an air freshener I bought at Wal-Mart! It is so cool! Of course my wife does not like it, for the above listed reasons.

Posted by: Aaediwen 24-Jan-2005, 12:10 PM
Indeed it is sad, the people that wear a cross but don't understand its meaning. I see it nothing less than hypocrytical for someone to be wearing a cross and speaking or acting harmfully against another person or being, even to the point of cursing or denying God. Those people need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Posted by: Keltic 24-Jan-2005, 12:31 PM
QUOTE (Aaediwen @ 24-Jan-2005, 02:10 PM)
Indeed it is sad, the people that wear a cross but don't understand its meaning. I see it nothing less than hypocrytical for someone to be wearing a cross and speaking or acting harmfully against another person or being, even to the point of cursing or denying God. Those people need to wake up and smell the coffee.

As I stated before, I view symbolism as an individual view. As I look at a piece of art, I, and I alone will decide whether I like it. I don't need an "expert" to tell me what I like or believe. As for the cross, if you feel uncomfortable with it, don't wear it. If you wear a cross, it should be for your own reasons. The cross as well as all other symbols throughout history have meant and continue to mean different things to different people. The swastika is found throughout many cultures to this day and although it is an ancient symbol, due to a very short period in history, you would be shunned wearing it in today's society. Even the illumated gospels such as the Book of Kells are smattered with swastikas.

As Siobhan Blues stated, "... is the significance for me too".

Posted by: Tassiecelt 03-Feb-2005, 05:54 AM
QUOTE (jpmoore @ 25-Jan-2005, 03:17 AM)
Actually, my wife will not wear any cross jewelry, simply because so many people wear crosses, and it means nothing to them. It is only jewelry.

I have a simple silver cross that I used to wear. I also have a neat wooden cross on a (wood) beaded string that is actually an air freshener I bought at Wal-Mart! It is so cool! Of course my wife does not like it, for the above listed reasons.

My wife is the same, I don't wear a cross either, but I sure am tempted when I see not only the crosses but the other beautiful jewellery at http://www.celtarts.com/

Posted by: IrishBecca30 15-Mar-2005, 10:14 AM
I found this site, pretty insightful! Related to the original topic of the meaning of the Celtic Cross

http://www.celtarts.com/celtic.htm


Posted by: WizardofOwls 15-Mar-2005, 12:07 PM
Nice, Becca! Thanks for sharing it with us! I can't wait to read it when I have more time!

Posted by: IrishBecca30 15-Mar-2005, 01:40 PM
You are very welcome Wizard, it looks nice and long!! biggrin.gif

Posted by: Shadows 15-Mar-2005, 01:45 PM
The Egyptian "ank" ( not sure that is spelled right ) was a cross with a circle ( more an oval ) on top and signified eternal life, the cross is not new to religions. As for the swastika it was originally a native american symbol for life, the bent cross it became during Hitler's reign!

Symbolism and charms have been at man's beck and call since the begining of time, it (as I have said before ) is all dependant on who is in control at the time. I do not wish to demean anyones faith or beliefs, just use the god given brain you have to see what is real.

Posted by: CelticRose 15-Mar-2005, 02:05 PM
QUOTE (IrishBecca30 @ 15-Mar-2005, 02:40 PM)
You are very welcome Wizard, it looks nice and long!! biggrin.gif

Thanks Irishbecca! I will have to print it out and read it too when I have more time.

BTW, I LOVE your new avatar!

Posted by: IrishBecca30 15-Mar-2005, 02:38 PM
QUOTE (CelticRose @ 15-Mar-2005, 02:05 PM)
Thanks Irishbecca! I will have to print it out and read it too when I have more time.

BTW, I LOVE your new avatar!

Thank you CelticRose! This avatar is a little more uplifting, or so I thought. i'm glad you like it!
clap.gif

Posted by: CelticRose 15-Mar-2005, 02:51 PM
QUOTE (Shadows @ 15-Mar-2005, 02:45 PM)
The Egyptian "ank" ( not sure that is spelled right ) was a cross with a circle ( more an oval ) on top and signified eternal life, the cross is not new to religions. As for the swastika it was originally a native american symbol for life, the bent cross it became during Hitler's reign!

Symbolism and charms have been at man's beck and call since the begining of time, it (as I have said before ) is all dependant on who is in control at the time. I do not wish to demean anyones faith or beliefs, just use the god given brain you have to see what is real.

Now, I used to wear the Egyptian ank (I think that is how it is spelled) a long time ago. I was just so fascinated by Egyptology and read anything I could on it and even went to the King Tut exhibition in Los Angeles many moons ago. I think its sympbolism is eternal life, if I am not mistaken.

Did not know the origins of the swastika though, Shadows. Thanks! And, yes from what I am read symbols and charms have been around since the beginning of time. Interesting, eh?



Posted by: CelticRose 15-Mar-2005, 02:52 PM
QUOTE (IrishBecca30 @ 15-Mar-2005, 03:38 PM)
QUOTE (CelticRose @ 15-Mar-2005, 02:05 PM)
Thanks Irishbecca!  I will have to print it out and read it too when I have more time. 

BTW, I LOVE your new avatar!

Thank you CelticRose! This avatar is a little more uplifting, or so I thought. i'm glad you like it!
clap.gif

Yes! Irishbecca! I said something to you about it in the avatar thread, I liked it so much. Really beautiful and very uplifting and very Irish too! wink.gif

Posted by: Shadows 15-Mar-2005, 04:30 PM
It is more then interesting it is insightfull!

Posted by: IrishBecca30 16-Mar-2005, 11:45 AM
CelticRose, I feel like it's Deja vu when i'm in these forums!

It's fun though.

Posted by: Tassiecelt 16-Mar-2005, 04:24 PM
I've been continuing to study this topic, it's not a trivial subject since it goes to the heart of keeping Christian doctrine pure and not mixed with paganism.

Not to bore you all with pages of references, let me just conclude that while I have been hard-line against crosses for 30 years, I am now satisfied that neither the cross symbol or the celtic cross is anything but a Christian symbol.
There is no real evidence that I have found that it was borrowed from the heathen or any other culture or religion.

It's worth remembering that God, through His forknowledge determined that His Son should die for the sins of man on a cross long before the man was even created.
In that sense..nothing predates Christianity (or the worship of the God of the Bible to be more correct).

For those interested in further study, read The Babylon Correction by Ralph Woodrow www.ralphwoodrow.org

Posted by: CelticRose 16-Mar-2005, 05:23 PM
Hey Graham! How ya doing? I hear what you are saying, but it was St Patrick that supposedly drew the symbol of the cross through the sun god symbol that the ancient Celts worshiped, was it not? That's what makes it a Celtic cross, different from other crosses. It is still a Christian cross in my opinion, but a Celtic cross. I hope I am making sense. unsure.gif

Posted by: Siobhan Blues 30-Mar-2005, 10:50 AM
QUOTE (Tassiecelt @ 16-Mar-2005, 05:24 PM)
It's worth remembering that God, through His forknowledge determined that His Son should die for the sins of man on a cross long before the man was even created.
In that sense..nothing predates Christianity (or the worship of the God of the Bible to be more correct)...

Hi!

I remember when it first dawned on me that in Genesis, God says man will be created 'in our image'... Christ was there at the beginning. Awesome!

SB

Posted by: Nova Scotian 08-Jun-2005, 06:32 PM
At one time I think part of it was a pagan symbol but when Christianity reached Britian and Ireland the bottom part was extended to resemble more of a cross so the inhabitants could be taught Christianity easier.

Posted by: Tassiecelt 13-Jun-2005, 08:58 AM
well as a personal addition to this discussion, God Willing, next month I plan to be travelling around Scotland with my wife, a highlight will be a visit to Iona and I plan to buy a celtic cross there (small and silver). It would be special to have such a thing from such a place which has been the very centre, if not cradle, of celtic christianity.

very excited, that's what i am. biggrin.gif

Posted by: reddrake79 13-Jun-2005, 09:37 AM
I think the main point here is that there are a couple of differing opinions on the origin of the celtic cross. The only research I have done is reading this thread. I think it was clearly shown that the cross itself is a wholy christian symbol. Now the original explanation givin with the piece of jewelry about the the four corners and their meaning could very well have been the original meaning behind the divided circle of the celts, however is that what a celtic cross repressents anymore? Judging from the majority of posts no one here actually associates the celtic cross with pagan beliefs. tha average person will see a christian cross that carries with it the artistic flair from a specific culture. i believe this falls into one of the warning given by Paul, I think - I cant remember the exact reference. We tells people that there is no problem eating food sacrificed to idols, its just meat. However, if you can't eat in good conscience then don't eat it. If you know someone else cant eat in good conscience then don't tell them where you got the meat. Let them enjoy the meat. Unfortunatly the explanation from the Jewelry maker has affected your conscience.
The way I look at it, and no offense to the jewelry maker, but he might not neccessarily be christian or he is trying to cover his bases and turn a larger profit. If the symbol works only for Christians he is only attracting a portion of the market. If he inlcudes pagan symbolism then he appeals to a larger audience. He probably hasn't studied symbolism or how the cross has been viewed, he is just interested in getting a larger profit. More than likly he included the pagan part not neccessarily because its true but because it sound good.

no matter the why's of the explanation you will have to reconcile it with your own conscience ( i realize that is what you are trying to do) But what works for my conscience might not neccasarily convince yours.

any rate thats my 2 cents

Posted by: Siobhan Blues 13-Jun-2005, 02:05 PM
QUOTE (Tassiecelt @ 13-Jun-2005, 10:58 AM)
well as a personal addition to this discussion, God Willing, next month I plan to be travelling around Scotland with my wife, a highlight will be a visit to Iona and I plan to buy a celtic cross there (small and silver). It would be special to have such a thing from such a place which has been the very centre, if not cradle, of celtic christianity.

very excited, that's what i am. biggrin.gif


Oh wow, are you really?? That is wonderful! clap.gif
Summertime should be a wonderful time to visit; I was in England in late June a few years ago and it was so pleasant weather-wise.

I totally agree, a cross from Iona would be a treasure. I always wear a celtic-style silver bracelet I purchased in Kinsale! And I often wear a celtic cross inlaid with Connemara marble that is from Dublin.

Have fun on your trip,
and say hello to a haggis for me -

SB laugh.gif

Posted by: Tassiecelt 14-Jun-2005, 08:35 AM
Thanks Siobhan, it will be a grand time, provided I survive the airport security sad.gif

I count myself blessed indeed to have the chance to visit Iona and other parts of Scotland.

reddrake79, that was more that 2 cents, but as always I love to read what you have to say.
I guess it's all about keeping a balance and perspective in life. The Word speaks about the "outward adorning" of silver and gold as being less important than the "inward adorning" of the heart.

Paul was the master of balance, he spoke of all things being lawful, but not all things expedient, I love his attitude. He just rejoiced in whatever came his way, joy or sorrow, wealth or poverty, fullness or hunger.

now that's balance!

Life is truly good, and the Lord is blessing us (my wife and I) with this journey. I will try to give a report of the adventure on my return - should the Lord see fit to return us home safely.

Posted by: CelticRose 18-Jun-2005, 09:06 PM
Hey there Graham! How wonderful you get to go to Scotland! And especially to Iona! What a blessing. I am planning a trip there myself for next fall 2006. Not sure if I will make it to Iona, but would be nice. Where all else are you traveling there and for how long? will you please post pics of your trip for us in the vacation thread in the Discussion forum? I would love to see them! Have a blessed holiday!

Posted by: Tassiecelt 19-Jun-2005, 07:01 AM
QUOTE (CelticRose @ 19-Jun-2005, 02:06 PM)
Hey there Graham! How wonderful you get to go to Scotland! And especially to Iona! What a blessing. I am planning a trip there myself for next fall 2006. Not sure if I will make it to Iona, but would be nice. Where all else are you traveling there and for how long? will you please post pics of your trip for us in the vacation thread in the Discussion forum? I would love to see them! Have a blessed holiday!

Thank you sister Rose!

Our first stop is Santa Rosa, CA to spend some time with Deb White and her family (Distant Oaks), they have promised us a private concert (WOW) and some touring of the area.
Next to Denver CO, for a church convention for a week. A local church leader is planning to take us walking in the Rockies also.

From there we fly to Orkney Islands, then to Inverness to pick up a car and drive around Scotland.
We hope to see the usual beauty spots, Loch Ness, Skye, Iona, Mull, Stirling, Edinburgh and lots in between. Then to Norfolk to visit my sister, a few days in London then to Denmark to visit our son and home.

I just got an email from Roy Gullane from Tannahill Weavers, with info on their gig at a folk festival near Carlisle, I hope we can fit that in.

Life sure is good and we thank the Lord for His blessings.

Rose I'll do my best to give you (and all here) a review of the places we visited and post some photos after. We will be back in mid August, God Willing.

Posted by: Ceciliastar1 19-Jun-2005, 04:11 PM
Here's what I found.

The Celtic Cross had it's evolution in the British Isles, with it's earliest form dating to approximately the ninth century and appearing mostly in Ireland. This early version is called a recumbent cross-slab, and they lied flat rather than standing upright. Eventually these made their way into an upright position (now called erect cross-slabs), and acquired a slightly rounded top. Both versions were often decorated with key patterns, interlaced knotwork, and spirals.

The celtic cross then underwent another change. Extraneous rock was carved away from the head of the slab, leaving the rock with the outlined shape of a tall cross, usually on a wider base. Because the cross form was in effect "freed" from the rock now, these types of crosses were commonly called erect free-standing crosses. From these, the arms of the cross eventually became extended beyond the ring of the cross, and the inner quadrants between the rings and the arms were cut away or recessed from the rest of the cross design. The free-standing crosses were elaborately made, and often composed of several pieces of stone. A large cross could have been made of up to four pieces of stone (the base, the shaft, the head, and the upper cross arm), held together by mortise and tenon joints carved into the stone.

An Irish legend tells how St. Patrick created the first Celtic cross by drawing a circle over a Latin cross to incorporate a pagan moon goddess symbol. For an Irish Catholic, the circle in the Celtic cross may be a symbol of eternity and the endlessness of God's love. It can even represent a halo emanating from Christ.

The celtic cross and Irish cross shape itself has been widely used by many ancient peoples, long before the arrival of Christianity. Its four arms were perfect for denoting the four elements, the four directions of the compass, and the four parts of man - mind, body, soul and heart. The addition of the ring around the cross has had many explanations, everything from sun worship and symbolism, to creating a shape with the cross that was well contained and aesthetically pleasing.

http://123celtic-irish-jewelry.com/celticcrosshistory.asp

Posted by: CelticRose 19-Jun-2005, 10:22 PM
Graham, you are going to have a wonderful time, it sounds like! Take lots of pics and give us stories too of your trip when you get back home. Have a great trip. Your going to all the places in Scotland that I want to go to. Have fun! Memories you will treasure forever.

Posted by: WizardofOwls 23-Jun-2005, 07:35 PM
I was reading an excellent article today that I found on-line dealing with the Hebridean Awakening of 1949. Here is a link if you are interested in reading it:

http://www.born-again-christian.info/scottish.hebrides.revival.duncan.campbell.html

Anyway, a little way into the article I found the following:

"The first time I visited a 'Christian' church graveyard in the Western Isles I was stunned to see so many demonic symbols on the graves of professing 'Christians'. Not merely the Celtic Cross, with a circle symbolising the 'binding of Christ's power by Satan', but the skull and crossbones was on almost every headstone."

Interesting, no?

Posted by: WizardofOwls 23-Jun-2005, 07:37 PM
OOPS! That link doesn't work. Here it is again:

http://www.born-again-christian.info/scottish.hebrides.revival.duncan.campbell.htm

Sorry!

Posted by: Nancy-Raven 23-Jun-2005, 07:48 PM
Maybe other have write this before but the way I see it.The circle represent the cycle of birth and death , the stone in the middle the sun which was honnored by the celt and see as a divinity.I personnally never associate the celtic cross with christian faith because it represent more pagan belief but the celtic cross is see differently by everyone.

Posted by: CelticRose 24-Jun-2005, 04:57 PM
Very interesting article and about the grave yards, Allen.

I agree with Nancy-Raven though. The Celtic cross seems to be viewed differently by different folks. For me it is the cross of Christ with the circle signifying the eternal love and his sacrifice for us. While to a pagan, a Celtic cross has a whole different meaning. It can be said that of many symbols in history. smile.gif

Posted by: j Padraig moore 24-Jun-2005, 08:00 PM
So in essence, the celtic cross is what we make of it: whether it be christian or pagan?

Posted by: CelticRose 26-Jun-2005, 01:14 AM
JP, that is the conclusion I have come to as I have seen both pagans wear the Celtic cross as well as Christains. However, I have four of them and I am wearing mine and if someone asks me if I am a pagan, I just say no I am a Christian and what the cross signifies to me. Besides, look at our celebrities today....much of them wearing regular crosses around their necks! do you think they are all Christians? Heck no! It is just a piece of jewelry to them. Just my two cents. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Tassiecelt 26-Jun-2005, 07:52 AM
QUOTE (WizardofOwls @ 24-Jun-2005, 12:37 PM)
OOPS! That link doesn't work. Here it is again:

http://www.born-again-christian.info/scottish.hebrides.revival.duncan.campbell.htm

Sorry!

I'm not too sure of this fellow and what he says.

QUOTE
wasn't until the Scottish founder of Presbyterianism, John Knox, began the sixteenth century Scottish Reformation, and faced down Catholic Mary Queen of Scots, that genuine Christianity gained a significant foothold in Scotland


He seems to ignor the early celtic missionaries and all they did, and just writes them off.

In fact, from what little I have seen, those believers such as Patrick were solid in the Bible and taught the truth long before Knox.

I think this fellow has a Presbyterian bias.

Posted by: j Padraig moore 27-Jun-2005, 10:20 AM
QUOTE (CelticRose @ 26-Jun-2005, 03:14 AM)
Besides, look at our celebrities today....much of them wearing regular crosses around their necks! do you think they are all Christians? Heck no! It is just a piece of jewelry to them. Just my two cents. rolleyes.gif

That, Rosie, is exactly why my wife will not wear a cross, anywhere, anyhow. So many wear it as simply jewelry.

(as for myself, I'm looking to find a nice celtic cross to wear! biggrin.gif ).

Posted by: CelticRose 30-Jun-2005, 11:03 PM
Yeah, I can understand your wives attitude. I love crosses and collect them. I especially love all my Celtic crosses though. I have about four or five of them now. Most of them have been gifts from over the pond so that makes it all the more special to me. smile.gif

Posted by: TheCarolinaScotsman 01-Jul-2005, 06:00 AM
Just saw this thread. The Celtic cross is very often used by Presbyterians. My father (who was a Presbyterian minister) told me the circle stands for the Risen, Living Christ as opposed to the figure of the killed Christ on the crusifix. I don't know if this was just his interpretation or Presbyterian teaching.

I'm sure there are several explanations equally as valid. Both symbols, the cross and the circle, predate Christianity. In my opinion, the interpretation depends on the person or group displaying the symbol. Remember that the swastika was an American Indian peace and friendship symbol long before Hitler used it and a burning cross, long a signal for the clan or group to gather, is now a symbol of hatred and bigotry.

Posted by: Shadows 01-Jul-2005, 03:37 PM
QUOTE (TheCarolinaScotsman @ 01-Jul-2005, 08:00 AM)
Just saw this thread. The Celtic cross is very often used by Presbyterians. My father (who was a Presbyterian minister) told me the circle stands for the Risen, Living Christ as opposed to the figure of the killed Christ on the crusifix. I don't know if this was just his interpretation or Presbyterian teaching.

I'm sure there are several explanations equally as valid. Both symbols, the cross and the circle, predate Christianity. In my opinion, the interpretation depends on the person or group displaying the symbol. Remember that the swastika was an American Indian peace and friendship symbol long before Hitler used it and a burning cross, long a signal for the clan or group to gather, is now a symbol of hatred and bigotry.

The Native American symbol you refer to is not the swastika as used by Hitler, if you look you will see the arms of the native symbol are reverse of the dreaded nazi symbol.

The Celtic cross pre-dates christianity... so in my opinion it is not a christian symbol, but has been adopted as such... much like many pagan symbols and holidays.

Posted by: CelticRose 05-Jul-2005, 12:18 AM
You know? This is probably a stupid question, but just wondering what is considered a Christian symbol? I know the cross was supposed to be, but if it predates Christianity, do we as Christians have any such symbols? Just wondering your opinions.

Posted by: stoirmeil 05-Jul-2005, 12:22 PM
If there is something inherently memorable or moving about a symbol, in an archetypal way, it would seem reasonable that more than one group over time would use it and assign meaning special to their particular interests -- but you would also expect that if the meaning is in some way inherent, the interpretations would have some resemblance or something in common as well. It's an interesting topic. smile.gif

Here are some Christian symbols and some other applications to which they have been assigned. Christianity is relatively young, so it stands to reason that some of these would have been reinterpreted when the followers of Christ began to spread the gospel.

http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/symbols.html

Posted by: CelticRose 05-Jul-2005, 04:52 PM
Thanks Stoirmeil. I had forgotten about the dove and the fish. I loved what it said about the Celtic cross. Tassie will like this since he is going there and will be getting him a cross from Iona. smile.gif

Celtic Cross ("the Cross of Iona"): stone crosses in this form dot the landscapes of Ireland and Scotland and are associated with the evangelization of these lands

Posted by: SCShamrock 28-Jul-2005, 07:30 AM
Allen,

I haven't read this entire thread, so if I'm repeating something or otherwise making a moot point, then I apologize.

Symbolism is an important thing for humans. It is a way to communicate, it can invoke certain feelings or emotions, and can help identify things, whether they be people, ideas, dangers, direction, what have you.

As for how symbols are used and their interpretations, they are quite varied. A little known but factual bit of history is the use of the Christian Cross by the Ku Klux Klan. Back in the Klan's heyday, during the 1920s, they flew the Cross as a flag and used it in the form of signs and statuary. We all know how they burned the cross too. Their use of this symbol did not do damage to the people who held it as a sign of love and salvation. It remains today as the same symbol it has always been.

Another symbol with Christian meaning is the Confederate battle flag. Few people know that the X in this flag is a Christian symbol--St. Andrew's Cross. If you take away the stars, and change the background to blue and the cross to white, you have the Scottish flag. St. Andrew, as you probably know, was the patron saint of Scotland. He was to be crucified, but asked not to be so on the same cross as Jesus, and so his life was brought to its conclusion on a cross in the shape of an X. The negativity surrounding the Confederate battle flag did not surface until the 1950s, in the height of the Equal Rights movement, and the misuse by--you guessed it--the KKK.

The point of all this is to demonstrate that interpretation of symbols can be, and often are, quite different depending on who is viewing them. If you believe that the Celtic Cross will cause people to find you pagan (assuming the purpose of wearing it is a form of communication), then perhaps you should consider keeping it unexposed. If, however, you feel that it is more for your own personal enjoyment (which it should be), and you are prepared to explain to people who might ask, then you could reasonable look at it as a way in which to bring the message of salvation that is in Christ to any interested party. Regardless of how others interpret it, you have connected with it, and that is an area in which you should consider yourself justified. The choice seems obvious to me, but you have to be comfortable with what you decide.

Much luck to you with it!

Robert

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