Forgiveness, Is it sometimes impossible?

We started talking about this in the J &C thread and I thought maybe we should have a place where we can go into the topic in more depth.

Are there those who we can never completely forgive? Who have you had trouble forgiving? What brought you to forgiveness? What do you still struggle with?

Oh, it's a poser this forgiveness business. How on earth does God do it?

This post has been edited by Elspeth on 12-Jul-2004, 09:47 AM

That's probably why He can do it: He's not on earth.

As I said on the J & C thread, you have to get over the resentment in order to forgive. I don't know what the answer is to that one. Curing resentment is like pulling weeds. It may seem better on the surface, but the root remains.

Resentment is insidious. There have been days when I'm very happy. Then I think about what happened between my parents and before I know it I'm blubbering on my wife's shoulder. I've been carrying this around for 32 years and I don't have a lot of hope for really getting over it.

I can easily forgive my kids for breaking something or making any of the myriad mistakes they will inevitiably make. I can forgive people at work treating me badly. I can forgive my wife after an argument. In other words, I can forgive people for the everyday things that we, as humans, occasionally do to tick each other off. That, in relative terms, is easy.

Forgiving my father for practically forsaking my brother and I for years; that's a bit harder.

That's a good one. How did Jesus walk around (what was it - two and half or three years?) with Judas, knowing all of the time that at some point in the future he was going to betray Him to suffer a death so horrible that even He asked God to spare Him?

It took me 20 years to forgive my dad for what he did to me and my family, and I know that it was only through the grace of God that I was able to do so. But really, and truthfully, I think forgiveness is always possible, sometimes it just takes time for the wounds to heal. It can't be impossible or else God would never have commanded us to do it!

I also think forgiveness is a mindset. I think it is something we have to take one day (and sometimes one minute) at a time. We have to program ourselves little by little to change how we feel. If I think about my dad and I think about something bad, I try to stop that train of thought in its tracks (pun intended!:)) and tryt to think of something good about him instead. We can never forget the bad things, but we don't have to let them consume us! And we have to remember that He said if we can't forgive our brothers, then we can't expect Himto forgive us.

Its not easy and it takes work. But thankfully the work gets easier with the passage of time.

Just my 2 cents worth...

just thinkin a bit here...... yanno if i step on yer toe..... and i say i am sorry and you say you forgive me....... ahhhhh does that take away the pain you are suffering because of my action? wounds take time to heal .... and ...*lookin down at my appendix scar of 40 yrs.* sometime the scars never leave. after all these years this physical scar sometimes still causes me pain.... forgiveness is an act of the will... it aint a feeling. do you follow what i am saying...... ?
it is like that step of faith... take the step, make the act of the will and allow Christ and time to take away the pain. yep its easy to say ..... *L*.......just some thoughts.

Forgiveness is one of the hardest things we can deal with. But we need to forgive people to move on and be happy. But no one says you've got to forget. Really, you can't.

My parents have separated themselves from the rest of their siblings, and it's starting to seep down into my generation. It sickens me, and I finally confronted my mother over it. My father is practically a hermit, the way he stays out in the country. He doesn't like company, and rarely comes to town. Sounds odd, but that's my dad. But mum n dad started attending family gatherings a bit less often all the time. Dad just didn't like the crowds, but they all saw it as they felt superior. Yeah, nice eh? So everyone thinks my entire family fancies itself better than the rest, even though we never, and I mean NEVER treat them poorly. But I told her they were old enough to know better. Sounds bitter, but necesary. Life's to short to waste on bitterness. Since that time, my Gram, mum's mum, has been reunited with her only son, who was adopted at birth, through my Aunts searching. They've all gotten together a few times since, and even got in some hugs. Big steps for some of them. Four sisters out of the blue. poor fellow. They'll all be getting together again in August. Everyone will get a hug from me, I asure it.

So that's it. If you're bitter, or if thinking of a person changes your character, for the worse, then you haven't forgiven the person, and it's taking a toll on you. You can't help but be weary, or be expected to forget anything every happened. Just move on for your own sake.
(this isn't advice, just rambling on............way after my bed time. Nite!)

Oh, that's a pretty touchy topic...
How does God do it, how does he manage it that he can forgive? Because he is NOT human, I guess.
To say in a some short words: I think there are things which are hard to forgive.
I can forgive all faults concerning the daily life.
It's harder to forgive someone near to my heart who had hurt me seriously but I can do this after a while.

I have one thing in my life and one person in my life I cannot forgive. And I don't think I will ever be able to do it.
This person is my step-father and the "thing" I cannot forgive is that he had sexually abused and raped me for years when I was very young.
I could forgive my Mom after decades that she didn't help me though she knew about it. She was too weak and too broken herself during that time .
But sexual abuse of children and very young people is murdering their souls. Destroying what often can't be repaired completely later. It's not possible to dress those horrors in words.
And though I know a Christian should be able to forgive his enemies I know I will NEVER be able to forgive this...man.
I hope Our Lord will forgive ME that I cannot forgive.

Gab, it's interesting, and disturbing, that you say this. My mother had a similar, though not as severe, experience as a child with a friend of the family. To this day she still keeps it a secret. She did confide in me once, but told me never to tell my father. The reason she told me is because we were having this very conversation. I asked, I think I was 15, "How can you forgive someone who has done something unforgivable?". So she told me this. She kept it very vague, thankfully, but said she has since forgiven the man. She can't ever trust him, and will never be close with the man again, but she has forgiven him. She had no secrets on how she managed to do so, only that she had to forgive him. I believe, and know, that she did this for her own well being, and not for his. In other words, she had moved on and lived her life happily, in spite of it. Wether he will ever forgive himself, I hope not. That is the sort of thing that should torture a person till the end, not the victim. Otherwise, there's just no justice in forgiveness. But forgiving something unforgivable makes you the better person, and you can be sure the person you've forgiven will see this, and appreciate it.

(again, I ended up rambling, sorry)

Keep rambling, if your rambling is always so good!

I understand when your Mom said she had to forgive him ... I understand it in the way that it was necessary for her own well being. This man didn't have any power over her life then any longer.
This is the point.
I do not hate that man any longer because I learnt that this hate of mine I still gave him the possibility to influence my life, to have a certain might over my life. Plus, hate is poisoning your life...No, I managed it not to hate hom any more.
And I do not have problems with men in general as a result of it. I never mixed up other men with that special one. This was not an easy thing to do but it worked.
I was and I am able to trust.
But the wounds he hit were running so deep and the consequences for my life have been so far-reaching that I can't forgive. I know if I were able to do so I would be really and completely free... I can't do it though. I see him leading his life quite happily and it is nit torturing at all. I think there is a justice above all human understanding, God's justice, and he will not be able to escape this justice. I gave it into God's hands to judge him finally. But still I'm not able to forgive as a last and final step of a long. long journey.

I admire your Mom that she was able to do!

First, what is forgiveness? I think a lot of people confuse forgiveness with emotion. "I forgave him, but I can't get over it completely" Therein lies the problem, and not to point out anyone in particular either, so don't feel picked on please. I had the same struggles for many years, feeling as though I had never really forgiven my step-father because I still hurt and suffered feelings of anger towards him for years of abuse. But do those emotions necessarily indicate a lack of forgiveness? We are commanded to forgive, and warned that if we don't forgive, we won't be forgiven. So then what is forgiveness?

From Vine's Expository dictionery of New Testament Words:
"signifies the remission of the punishment due to sinful conduct, the deliverance of the sinner from the penalty Divinely, and therefore righteously, imposed; secondly, it involves the complete removal of the cause of offense; such remission is based upon the vicarious and propitiatory sacrifice of Christ."

Now with this definition in mind, it would appear that when you forgive someone, what you are actually doing is no longer holding that person accountable for the offense, not making them answer for their actions, and not causing them to suffer for those actions whether by word or by deed.

Since God has commanded that we, as Christians, are to forgive others the same as we have been forgiven, that it would only stand to reason that obeying this is an action, not an emotion. In other words, I believe the Bible is indirectly making the case that if we forgive others in the way God forgives (witholding punishment) then we have done what is expected. But feeling hurt, angry, upset, disgusted, betrayed, etc. these are all HUMAN emotions and should not be repressed in an effort to feel a sense of piety, or to be in compliance.

Now on a more personal note, to show how I've applied this in my life. My step-father was a tyrannical, abusive man. He didn't actually beat us up, but he did render some harsh physical discipline, and that quite disproportionate between his step and bio kids. But all that paled in comparison to the mental abuse. I won't go into detail, but suffice it to say it was a rather hard childhood. I have forgiven him for all those years, and my mother too for her letting her fear of the man override her sense of protection. But that doesn't mean that I never think of those days, and that when I do I see it with rainbows and candy canes. Quite the contrary. I remember those days of dread. I still get angry with the both of them, and don't know if another 38 years will remove those feelings. But I do know God, who created me and gave me the ability to have emotions, knows I have forgiven, and knows I still hate the way I was treated.

I hope this adds a bit to the discussion.

A lot of good points in this thread. Particularly about how hard it is to Forgive. Like Dundee said even after you think you are over something you will see the scar and it will remind you.

I sometimes have a very difficult time with this and so I analyze the whys. I don't like to not forgive, the anger and hurt that goes along with it only serves to consume me and yet I find that I can not let things go.

Most of the time this has to do with a lack of resolution to the situation that I need to forgive. I can not say in any given situation what that resolution may need to be as I often don't know myself, I will lift these things up in prayer and most times see that I can gradually get over the hump, but often these are the kinds of things that leave the scar.

Some things may not have a resolution for us, such as were mentioned previously and I think that it is very unfortunate that the ones that were hurt in the beginning are the ones who continue to hurt as a result.

My motivation may seem selfish, but the worse an offense is eating at me the more I strive to forgive it. The logical side of me will tell me this reflection on wrongs done to me is not only a ridiculous waste of my energy and resources but is destructive to my attitude and I just need to drop it, but the emotional side of me just won't let it go.

That is when I really have to sort of blackmail myself to pray for the offender, because that is the last thing that I really want to do. I don't know if what I achieve from this is a true forgiveness or just a sort of numbing, but I do know that as I see or hear things that will remind me of an event/offense over time the struggle becomes less.

BTW Excellant points SC
Mikel

We're on the same track here I think Mikel. You know, I don't think it matters much about the process we use to forgive, only that we're obedient to that end. And how do we forgive when we still hurt over the transgression?

Do you remember Andrea Yates? She was the woman who drowned her five children in the bathtub. At a news conference her husband said he had compassion for his wife, that she was mentally ill, and that she forgave her. Now you could just hear the gasp that the entire world let go, and I included. Admittedly, that whole family was a bit strange, and who's to say if Mr. Yates truly forgave his wife. But, even something as heinous as that, we are called by God to forgive. Why? Because, if Andrea Yates were to humble herself before the Lord, surrender her heart to Christ, and ask to be forgiven, Holy God would grant that forgiveness because the punishment for that sin was already paid for on the Cross by Jesus Christ. Is that to say that we should only forgive those who have invited Jesus into their heart? No. Ours is not to determine who deserves forgiveness, because as the Bible says, we see things physically, carnally. But it is God who looks upon the heart. We are given the example through the life and teaching of Christ, and are called simply to follow Him, and to strive to be like Him. So there is the dilemma. We spend so much time trying to figure out who to forgive, how to forgive them, how to let the emotions of hurt leave when we try to forgive. So here's the formula for forgiving in order of the previous complications. Q: Who do we forgive? A: Everyone. Jesus said if we don't forgive, His Father in heaven won't forgive us. Q: How do we forgive? A: Understand that a lack of forgiveness is keeping a person in bonds, holding them liable for their actions, and using your own wisdom to determine their guilt based on you own moralistic economy. You give it to God. Afterall, he did say "vengence is mine, I shall repay" Q: How do we let the emotions of hurt leave when we forgive? A: Don't worry about it. Understand that you are human, when you hurt, are betrayed, are lied about, are persecuted, etc. this instills emotions in us that are part of our being, another in the long list of gifts from God. Jesus had these emotions too, he was hurt, gleeful, sorrowful, you name it. Let the emotions exist, but pray for relief. In time, after you forgive someone, those emotions will become less intense. But don't judge yourself and whether or not you have forgiven someone based on how you FEEL. What a sad world it would be if we could just turn our emotions off an on like a light switch.

Forgiveness...hmmm....That's a hard thing to consider. But at the same time it is nessecary. My fiancee's family has a large issue with forgiveness. When his parents were first married, his father cheated on his mother. This was back in '79. Since then he has changed completely and would never do anything like that again. However his wife has never really forgiven him. She has become paronoid to an unhealthy extent. My fiancee comes from a family of 10. His parents has ten children, but they had a hard childhood. His mother never trusted his father again. The family could not live in one place for more than a year because she always thought he was cheating on her. They have always been moving. Grant it I think it would be hard to forgive such a thing. But what makes it sad, almost sickening is that their children have suffered for it. They moved around all their lives. The parents are now getting a difforce. The youngest child isn't even 2 yet. A lot of the older kids have gotten or have been invovled in drugs and alcohol. I don't know what I am trying to say here. I know forgiveness is hard, and I really can't talk because I have never been in a situation where it would be hard to forgive. All I have seen is a family falling apart because of a mistake made almost 25 years ago and someone not being able to let it go. It's sad. I just wish that they could work it out. It's hard sometimes because I am from a family of 12, and my parents have been happily married since '79. There has never been an instance of things like this. It's hard to watch a family with so many dependants fall apart. The children are the ones who suffer the most. The children are the ones who end up having to deal with their parents problems...The children take sides and some of them will never forgive their parents. It's a sick cycle. I don't know. I'm rambling. I don't think I am making any sense now... oh well.

Welcome Ceciliastar!

Ramblings are always welcome. More often than not, the seeds of wisdom are found in the ramblings.

Good comments everyone. I have come to believe forgiveness is a state of mind. And the problem is I am still angry enough to not want to forgive. There are many issues entertwined in these feelings so that at this point in time I am just not ready to let it go. It isn't just about one or two offenses, but a way of life.

Elspeth

Matthew 18:21-35(KJV)

21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.



Bruce Larson tells the true story of a Catholic priest living in the Philippines, a much-loved man of God who once carried a secret burden of long-past sin buried deep in his heart. He had committed that sin once, many years before, during his time in seminary. No one else knew of this sin. He had repented of it and he had suffered years of remorse for it, but he still had no peace, no inner joy, no sense of God's forgiveness.
There was a woman in this priest's parish who deeply loved God, and who claimed to have visions in which she spoke with Christ, and He with her. The priest, however, was skeptical of her claims, so to test her visions he said to her, "You say you actually speak directly with Christ in your visions. Let me ask you a favor. The next time you have one of these visions, I want you to ask Him what sin your priest committed while he was in seminary."
The woman agreed and went home. When she returned to the church a few days later, the priest said, "Well, did Christ visit you in your dreams?"
She replied, "Yes, He did."
"And did you ask Him what sin I committed in seminary?"
"Yes, I asked Him."
"Well, what did He say?"
"He said, 'I don't remember.'"
This is what God wants you to know about the forgiveness He freely offers you. When your sins are forgiven, they are forgotten. The past--with its sins, hurts brokenness, and self-recrimination--is gone, dead, crucified, remembered no more. What God forgives, He forgets.

--James S. Hewett, Illustrations Unlimited (Wheaton: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc, 1988) p. 216.


I am really the last person to even comment on this topic. I can hold a grudge with the best of them (or is it the worse), which is one reason I hadn't added anything to this thread till now.

One of the definitions of the word Christian is: Christ-Like
If we are to try and be Christ-like then we must try and forgive others like he forgave us. It's really hard to do but we need to try anyway.

MacE

Forgiveness I feel is for God and not us. We as human beings will have things happen to us over our lives (not too many I hope) and we can put the little things behind us with time. The expression Forgive and Forget comes to mind. Some things are never forgotten, and I feel it is bad to try. You learn to live with it. If you burn your hand on a stove, you remember what burned you. Maybe God's way of helping us make sure we don't get burned again. To forgive completely is a state of perfection that few, if any of us can reach. We are flawed. He made us this way.