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> To Have, the different ways to express possession
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Siarls 
Posted: 22-Feb-2006, 12:33 PM
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In Welsh, there is no direct translation for the English verb "to have".

There are different ways of saying it, but when we speak of "I have a car" or "I have children", here are the different forms:

Standard
Mae gennyf ---
Mae gennyt ---
Mae ganddo ---
Mae ganddi ---
Mae gan ---
Mae gennym ---
Mae gennych ---
Mae gennynt ---

This causes soft mutation

Examples:
Mae gennyf gar.
Mae gennyt blant.
Mae gan yr ysgol bolisi dywieithog.


The South
Mae --- (gy)da fi
Mae --- (gy)da ti
Mae --- (gy)da fe
Mae --- (gy)da hi
Mae --- (gy)da
Mae --- (gy) da ni
Mae --- (gy)da chi
Mae --- (gy)da nhw

This is probably the easiest form and has probably replaced any other form in the South, to the point where native Southern Welsh speakers are often unaware of the Standard form.

The North
Mae --- gen i
Mae --- gent ti
Mae --- ganddo
Mae --- ganddi
Mae --- gan
Mae --- gennom
Mae --- gennoch
Mae --- gennon nhw

This form is often mistaken as the Standard correct Welsh form


The Welsh verb cael should NOT be translated as "to have". It is better translated as "to receive". If you were to say, "Dw i'n cael car", it could be translated as "I'm having a car", but it's a bit incomplete in Welsh and a speaker would be expecting you to continue, maybe by saying something like, "...for Christmas".
However it can also be used as an auxiliary verb in the passive tense.

E.g. The book was written
Cafodd y lyfr ei ysgrifennu

Derbyn also means to "to receive" but it is a direct translation, unlike the ambiguity of cael which as you can see, is highly contextual.


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Gwlad, gwlad, pleidiol wyf im gwlad
Tra mr yn fur
I'r bur hoff bau
O bydded ir heniaith barhau
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gwenynen 
Posted: 22-Feb-2006, 03:03 PM
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QUOTE (Siarls @ 22-Feb-2006, 12:33 PM)
The Welsh verb cael should NOT be translated as "to have".

I'm afraid I did this very thing this morning. I wrote to someone "...cyn cael fy mabi cynta." meaning "before I had my first baby." How do you say this correctly? I'm familiar with "I was born." but not "I had (a baby.)"


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Weithiau, mae'r ateb i'n problemau o dan ein trwynau, dim ond bod angen i ni gymryd cam yn l ac edrych eto. - Stuart Kerner
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Antwn 
Posted: 22-Feb-2006, 06:09 PM
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I believe cael is also used to say things like "I'll have coffee with my dessert" and the gyda/gan constructions mean more to be in possession of.....is that correct?

Also what about these examples which are not as clear?
"We have no way of knowing"
"She has a funny way of walking"
"You can't have your cake and eat it too"

Can you talk a bit about forms of cael meaning "get, got" etc? Gareth King talks alot about using cael where in English one would use got.

Also, when you're using cael....ei verbnoun - doesn't that translate into English using the verb to be? Example - Mae'r sgubor yn cael ei chodi - the barn is BEING built. .....or Fe fydd y sgubor yn cael ei chodi - the barn will BE built. Your example of Cafodd y llyfr ei ysgrifennu also includes a form of the verb to be when translated though it doesn't use a form of bod in Welsh. This must mean that this construction doesn't require a form of bod - yes? Could you use it with gallu or dylwn? Dylai'r sgubor yn cael ei chodi ....for example.

So how common is the ar constructions Siarls? I know its correct to say mae pen tost arna fi - and even mae arna fi eisiau - but I see people ignoring this construction more often than not - most say dw i eisiau even though eisiau is a noun. I know in the South moyn is used with yn which is easier, but what about ar when talking about a feeling, illness etc? I rarely see anyone using this construction with ar except in older books or formal Welsh. Isn't this standard?

Sorry for all the questions, but these constructions are a bit confusing sometimes. The cael ....ei ...something construction I see alot, even though David Thorne says that excessive use of cael is not considered good literary style.


--------------------
Yr hen Gymraeg i mi,
Hon ydyw iaith teimladau,
Ac adlais i guriadau
Fy nghalon ydyw hi
--- Mynyddog
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Siarls 
Posted: 23-Feb-2006, 04:37 PM
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The ...cael...ei... is a very bad literary style.

In response to your translations, remember not to be too literal in translation and to avoid anglicisms, therefore translated to Welsh, these sentences would be better as:

We cannot know
She walks funnily

And "you can't have your cake and eat it" is definitely an English idiom. I'm sure there's a Welsh equivalent but I can't think of it. Will as my lecturer tomorrow.

The ...cael...ei... construction can use bod, but only as the "periphrastic" or "ffurf gwmpasog", e.g.
Mae'r llyfr yn cael ei ysgrifennu: the book is (in the process of) being written
'Roedd Cymru'n cael ei hymosod yn ystod y drydedd ganrif ar ddeg:
Wales was (being) attacked (continuously) during the 13th century

The ar constructions are a good point, Antwn. They are badly neglected in spoken language, which is a shame for the Welsh Language, but probably easier for you. Look at how we'd use the ar constructions in spoken language:

fi'n ofn o: I'm scared of
fi'n angen: I need
fi eisiau: I want
mae annwyd gyda fi: I have a cold

The ar is of course Standard, but it must be remembered that, despite again many neglects, yn forms part of this construction:

Mae'n angen arnaf
(I'll have to check eisiau for you, though)

I think these forms will slowly come back into use with the increasing education of the Welsh Language and as learners begin to overtake the number of natives!!!!

According to my lecturer, ganddynt is the 3rd person plural. That means I'm not actually sure about the North, maybe they say ganddyn nhw. Will find out.

Esgor is to give birth.
They way you said it though, Gwen, is perfectly acceptable to spoken Welsh, though it's a little dodgey in regards to Standard or Literary. My friend and I are actually having a little debate about it at the moment, he thinks my ideas for the Welsh Language are too conservative and old-fashioned and that native spoken Welsh should be the Standard. Natives decide how their language is spoken, not pretentious academics aspiring to a golden age now extinct.
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gwenynen 
Posted: 24-Feb-2006, 09:47 AM
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QUOTE (Siarls @ 23-Feb-2006, 04:37 PM)
Esgor is to give birth.

O, then may I say "cyn esgor fy mabi cynta"?
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Siarls 
Posted: 24-Feb-2006, 10:43 AM
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That sounds ok to me. I'm tempted to put "imi" in
cyn imi esgor fy mab cyntaf

But my friend says there's no need. When I disputed it, he said, "O wel, sai'n gwybod te".
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gwenynen 
Posted: 24-Feb-2006, 05:54 PM
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Diolch Siarls. I should have written the full sentence. "Ro'n i'n arfer sgio o dro i dro cyn esgor fy fabi cynta." Then "imi" is not needed? By the way, I made a mistake in the soft mutation in "babi" It should have been "fabi", not "mabi" sad.gif
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gwenynen 
Posted: 24-Feb-2006, 06:02 PM
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O, na! Dw i wedi drysu yn llwyr! It's nasal mutation after "fy"! So "mabi" is OK after all! Mae angen gorffwys arna i, efallai.
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Siarls 
Posted: 24-Feb-2006, 08:06 PM
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I was just about to correct you! It's good that you can correct yourselves. Maybe that's what I should do is underline your mistakes and then you can correct them yourselves. That's what my French lecturer used to do.
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Muiris 
Posted: 14-Dec-2007, 11:28 PM
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QUOTE (gwenynen @ 24-Feb-2006, 09:47 AM)
QUOTE (Siarls @ 23-Feb-2006, 04:37 PM)
Esgor is to give birth.

O, then may I say "cyn esgor fy mabi cynta"?


I'm coming late to this but I want to answer a few points

1) south Wales speakers of Welsh would be aware of the 'standard' form of 'gan' i.e. gennyf etc. These forms are taught in schools, they are in normal literature and they are actually still used in the south in different circumstances to 'gyda' i.e. 'cafodd ei weld gan John' - 'It was seen BY John' here 'gyda' would not be used.

2) I don't think anyone would say 'cyn imi egor fy mab cyntaf' - firstly 'esgor' is quite literary these days - it would literally mean 'before I gave birth to my first son'. The way that one would normally talk about having a child (in the sense of a child entering your family, not 'owning' a child) would be to use 'cael' for example, when my wife had our child one of the first questions was 'Beth gawsoch chi?" (what did you have?) the answer was 'Cawson ni fab' (we had a boy). When I say 'before we had Eoin' (his name is Eoin) I say 'Cyn inni gael Eoin'. This is the standard and normal way of saying this in Welsh.

3) Esgor is followed by 'ar' so, Esgorodd hi ar fab 'she gave birth to a son'. However, one has to understand that you don't really hear 'esgor' very often unless one is actually talking about the physical process of birth.

M
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gwenynen 
Posted: 15-Dec-2007, 10:22 AM
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S'mae Muiris. Croeso i'r fforwm. We haven't had a new member in the Welsh forum for a long time! It's good to have you here.

Thanks for your input. I hope you'll visit Beginner's Welsh too. We have so few people posting that now we post only in this section (and we haven't been giving English translations. tongue.gif)

http://www.celticradio.net/php/forums/inde...75&#entry222921
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Antwn 
Posted: 19-Dec-2007, 01:48 PM
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I'd always thought imi, iddi, iddo etc was necessary before cyn also, when cyn refers to a pronoun or where a pronoun is implied, but I've seen cyn before verbs without i - so if I were to say "don't eat before swimming" would I say

Paid a^bwyta cyn nofio or Paid a^bwyta cyn iti nofio.

The second seems to me to say "don't eat before you swim/or go swimming".

"According to my lecturer, ganddynt is the 3rd person plural. That means I'm not actually sure about the North, maybe they say ganddyn nhw. Will find out."

I thought ganddynt was 3rd PP too even though the t is not pronounced is it? I suspect that its because it is ganddynt hwy in formal Welsh and when nhw is substituted for hwy it makes pronunciation more difficult - ganddyn nhw is much easier to say, though I could be completely off base about this.


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