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| Posted by: Elspeth 22-Dec-2003, 06:41 PM |
| I recently read the novel The Children of First Man by James Alexander Thom. The premise of the story is a fictional account of the legend that Madog Owain Gwynedd sailed from Wales in the twelfth century and discovered the coast of America. He returned to Wales and came back with several ships and the intent to colonize the new land. The descendents of this colony intermarried with the natives, forming the Mandan Indians. The novel then continues, following the Mandans through the centuries. If you are interested in a long, thoroughly researched historical novel you may want to give this a read. It is interesting to speculate on the validity of the legend. To think Europeans had settled here 300 years before Columbus. |
| Posted by: Elspeth 22-Dec-2003, 06:59 PM |
| And, as a point of interest, this was written by Richard Bercot's father-in-law. |
| Posted by: Elspeth 23-Dec-2003, 05:49 AM |
| Many of our American visitors will be familiar with the story of Madoc, a prince of Wales who, in the twelfth century, is supposed to have discovered America. The story first appears in A True Reporte, written by Sir George Peckham in 1583. This document supported the first Queen Elizabeth's claim to the New World. It was repeated in Humphrey Llwyd's Historie of Cambria the next year. In 1810, John Sevier, one of the founders of Tennessee wrote about a belief among the Cherokee Indians that there had been a Welsh-speaking Indian tribe. Their chieftain was supposed to have told Sevier that he had heard his father and grandfather speak of a people called the Welsh, and that they had crossed the seas and landed at Mobile in Alabama. Welsh scholars have been long been sceptical, especially since the Madoc story was promoted in the 19th century by the bard Iolo Morganwg, someone not renowned for his devotion to accuracy in the sphere of history. For many Welshmen, however, the story has long had a certain resonance and Professor Hartmann tells us that "On January 13th 1804, an American President of Welsh ancestry, Thomas Jefferson, despatched a letter to another Welsh-American, Meriwether Lewis, containing a map of the Upper Missouri valley. The map had been prepared by a third Welsh-American, John Evans." John Evans left his home in rural North Wales in 1792. He travelled to London and then across to remote parts of the USA in search of Madoc?s Welsh Indians. Fuelled by the revival of ?Madoc fever? and the strong support of his London-Welsh contemporaries, the young weaver set out to rediscover the "Welsh Indians". He appears to have worked for a Spanish company in America and became a surveyor. Despite his best efforts, Welsh speaking Native Americans were not found but the legend lives on. http://www.data-wales.co.uk/madoc.htm |
| Posted by: susieq76 05-Jan-2005, 03:25 PM |
| Here is a story I found on the BBC UK site regarding a book called Mabinogion. It seemed really interesting, and I was wondering if anyone else had heard of this, and if you had any other books by Welsh authors or about Wales that you would like to recommend. http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/myths-customs/pages/myth-mabintro.shtml The Mabinogion - background A masterpiece of medieval literature, The Mabinogion is regarded by many as Wales's greatest contribution to European literature. It has been widely influential too, giving rise to timeless literary figures such as Arthur and Merlin, and providing the basis of much European and world literature - the fantasy fiction genre, so popular today, was practically unknown before its publication. It first came to general literary prominence in the mid 19th century, when Lady Charlotte Guest published her translation of 11 medieval Welsh folk tales under the title The Mabinogion. The tales, which are outwardly concerned with the lives of various Welsh royal families - figures who represent the gods of an older, pre-Christian mythological order - are themselves much older in origin. Preserved in written form in the White Book of Rhydderch (1300-1325) and the Red Book of Hergest (1375-1425), portions of the stories were written as early as the second half of the 11th century, and some stories are much older still. It's from this older, oral tradition of story telling that many of the fantastic and supernatural elements of the tales have come. Ironically the title, The Mabinogion, is a relatively modern one, coined mistakenly by Lady Charlotte Guest herself. The word 'mabinogion', which she assumed was the plural form of 'mabinogi', appears only once in the manuscripts she translated and is commonly dismissed as a transcription error. 'Mabinogi', derived from the word 'mab', originally meant 'boyhood' or 'youth' but gradually came to mean 'tale of a hero's boyhood' and eventually, simply, 'a tale'. It's these first four heroic 'tales', or the four 'branches' of Pwyll, Branwen, Manawydan, and Math, which make up The Mabinogi(on) proper. A single character, Pryderi links all four branches. In the first tale he's born and fostered, inherits a kingdom and marries; in the second he's scarcely mentioned; in the third he's imprisoned by enchantment and then released; and in the fourth he falls in battle. The tales themselves are concerned with the themes of fall and redemption, loyalty, marriage, love, fidelity, the wronged wife, and incest. They're set in a bizarre and magical landscape which corresponds geographically to the western coast of south and north Wales. They're full of white horses that appear magically, giants, beautiful, intelligent women and heroic men. The title, The Mabinogion, is also used today to describe the other seven stories in Lady Charlotte Guest's collection: The Dream of Maxim Wledig, which is based on the legend of Emperor Maximus; Llud and Llefelys, a tale full of fairy tale elements; Culhwch and Olwen the earliest known Arthurian romance in Welsh; The Dream of Rhonabwy, a witty meditation on ancient Britain's heroic tradition; and three further Arthurian romances, The Lady of the Fountain, Peredur and Gerient Son of Erbin. A twelfth story, Taliesin, translated from a later manuscript is included in some collections. Re-told by Philip Palmer It got a lot more descriptive about individual stories within this book, but I felt it best to just put this in. |
| Posted by: Welsh Guy 05-Jan-2005, 04:19 PM |
| I have my 1948 edition with me now, it was a gift from Lloyd George's brother William George, on the Centenary of Loyd George's birth 17th January 1968. It inspired me later in life when I became the script editor on a Russian animation of the story of Culwch & Olwen, produced by Soyuzmulifilm Studios Moscow, and was screened at the Cannes film festival in 1988. The Mabinogion was the staple diet of of young Welsh children, the stories being as familiar as Grimms fairy tales to us. |
| Posted by: Aaediwen 05-Jan-2005, 08:05 PM |
| I've been looking to buy a copy for some time, If I could ever find it. I first encountered it at www.sacred-texts.com. |
| Posted by: Welsh Guy 06-Jan-2005, 02:07 AM |
| It's on Amazon |
| Posted by: susieq76 31-Jan-2005, 03:13 PM |
| Okay, so I have bought Mabinogion, and several other books that look fabulous. One I am reading right now is by Rhys Bowen and is a mystery series. The first book is called "Evans Above". They are great - you guys ought to check them out! Another one I got is called "Here Be Dragons" and is part of a three book series by Sharon Kay Penman. Those looked really good. They are about the Arthur tales. Does anyone have any books set in Wales or by Welsh authors to recommend? |
| Posted by: gwenynen 28-Mar-2005, 08:38 AM |
| "A String in the Harp" by Nancy Bond was interesting. It's about a family who moved to Wales involving the story of Taliesin. I usually don't read fantacy stories but this book was good. I found a copy at the local library. My favorite Welsh author is Kate Roberts. "Tea in the Heather" is about a little girl in Northern Wales a century ago. It's short and easy to read. Her longer novel, "Feet in Chains" is great as well. The background in the both novels is the same: coal/slate mines, poor/hard working families. Both of them were made into films in Welsh by s4c. Dylan Thomas is by far the most famous, but I don't care for his books except "A Child's Christmas in Wales." This is good. I watched the film too. |
| Posted by: susieq76 28-Mar-2005, 09:12 AM |
| *runs towards library greedily* Thanks so much! I will be checking those out. Rhys Bowen has been very good - I have read three in her series. And Sharon Kay Bowman is okay. A bit redundant, if you ask me....all of her books seem to be about Prince John and Richard the Lionhearted and all the Welsh battles. But hey...I haven't read them all, so I don't know for sure. |
| Posted by: Siarls 22-Apr-2005, 11:17 AM |
| Welsh Poetry is great too. You should look at some of Aneirin and Taliesin's work. It is the original Lord of the Rings - forget Tolkien. I feel part of something very special when I read Taliesin, in particular. Another good way to pick up Welsh is Kate Roberts' short stories, perhaps Ffair Gaeaf. Be warned - it's mostly Northern Welsh!!!!!! Which is actually arguably closer to Standard Welsh than the relaxed slang we spew in the South!!!!! Oh, and don't forget Gwyn Thomas' poetry. Perhaps Wmgawa. His poetry is very accessible. Little grammar at all. He doesn't use verbs much, so you don't get lost in unnecessary drivel. |
| Posted by: susieq76 22-Apr-2005, 02:38 PM |
| That is great! I am off to the library today, and will see if they have those. Thanks! I have read "Taliesin" by Stephen Lawhead, but it is probably not the same.... |
| Posted by: gwenynen 27-Apr-2005, 09:25 AM |
| What do you say about Dylan Thomas, Siarls? I won't give my opining till I know yours. |
| Posted by: Siarls 27-Apr-2005, 12:17 PM |
| Well, I'm afraid I don't like Dylan Thomas. Swansea County Council have quotes from his poetry on everything - vans, posters, letters. But, even though Swansea is eager to claim him as our own - it's only because he's so famous. Otherwise, most Swansea people dislike him. We know him for the Welsh-hating, alcoholic wife beater that he was. |
| Posted by: gwenynen 27-Apr-2005, 07:53 PM |
| I'm relieved to hear that as I don't like his works except "A Child's Christmas in Wales." But I didn't want to say anything negative about him to someone from Swansea. |
| Posted by: Siarls 28-Apr-2005, 06:10 AM |
| Haha! I suspected that's why you asked my opinion! Most people from Swansea don't like him. He's famous for being an alcoholic wife-beater, not for his literature. When Bill Clinton said, "You Welsh are lucky to have Dylan Thomas as your poet", my mother was like, "Erm, why?" and when my American friends told me that they loved him, I had no idea his literature was famous!! |
| Posted by: gwenynen 28-Apr-2005, 07:23 AM |
 !!!I must say his works are well known in the States when even our local library in a small country town carries his books. When I asked our town's used book store owner if he had Dylan's books, he said, "Dylan Thomas, the poet?" I'm glad Wales has Kate Roberts. |
| Posted by: Siarls 28-Apr-2005, 03:21 PM |
| Kate Roberts is well like and in fact, on Tuesday I will be collecting an essay I wrote on here earlier this semester. I like her but felt her heroines are weak in that they are hero-worshipped for accepting and coping with their situations, rather than struggling to change them. I do like her, though and her attempts at Southern Welsh are amusingly accurate (as in, she gets them right, but they're playfully made fun of. I was always laughing at her Southern Welsh! I was like, "Haha! So true - I say that!!") |
| Posted by: gwenynen 29-Apr-2005, 08:09 AM |
| Kate Roberts: I know what you mean by the weak heroines, but I like her simple style of writing and her love for Welsh. Of course I read her novels only in English except "Te yn y Grug." It was my first full encounter with Northern Welsh. (I guess most of the language books teach Southern Welsh.) I had to read almost sentence by sentence referring back to the English translation. I got CDs too and listened to them like mad! The male/female readers' Welsh (Northern, of course) is soo beautiful and flows like music. I even bought a video of the film by s4c. They changed some parts as movie makers always do. Kate Roberts would've been shocked! Overall, it was well-done, though. I've noticed one interesting thing about Northern Welsh; the pronunciation of a vowel, y (I believe, the half sound that's hard to imitate) is similar to that of a Northern Japanese diarect. Does that mean people in the north tend not to open their mouths maybe in order not to let cold air in? In which novel does she use Southern Welsh? I'll have to write about Saunders Lewis later. Rhaid i mi fynd. |
| Posted by: Siarls 01-May-2005, 08:47 AM |
| I don't understand or study Northern Welsh. In fact, while studying Kate Roberts, most of us had help from the lecturer because we're mainly southerners. Last night, I served a customer who was from the North, and we had to converse in English because we didn't understand each other! We can be quite nasty toward each other. Southerners call Northerners Gogs which comes from the word, Gogledd, which means North, but gog also means cuckoo. Northerners call us hwntws which I believe is Northern Welsh for them by there because we tend to say "by here" and "by there" (but in Southern Welsh, "by there" is fan na (although I'm not sure how to spell it)). Kate Roberts uses Southern Welsh in her book Ffair Gaeaf. This is a collection of her short stories, and Southern Welsh is only used in Gorymdaith and Diwrnod i'r Brenin. Only as dialogue though, not as the narration is the Southern Welsh used. I'll tell you a major difference between Northern and Southern Welsh that'll help you notice straight away... Northerners tend to speak more nasally. Southerners talk a lot slower as well. People say it's because we use Welsh less often and so are not used to speaking it. But that's rubbish in my opinion - I think it's just that our dialect(s). |
| Posted by: gwenynen 01-May-2005, 03:05 PM |
If Welsh speakers can't understand each other because of the difference in diarects, what on earth are poor learners supposed to do?!  Someone once told me there were different diarects from valley to valley!As to 'Ffair Gaeaf,' do you know the English title? I have a book, 'The World of Kate Roberts' translated by Jeseph P. Clancy. In it there is a story called 'November Fair.' Could this be it? Do you also know the English titles for 'Gorymdaith' and 'Diwrnod i'r Brenin'? They might have been given completely different English titles and could be in the book. |
| Posted by: Siarls 02-May-2005, 05:23 AM |
| November Fair might very well be Ffair Gaeaf, although the proper translation would be "Winter Fair". Gorymdaith means "Procession" Diwrnod i'r Brenin means "Day for the King". I don't know their English names, but Gorymdaith is about a protest in the South Wales Valleys and Diwrnod i'r Brenin is idiomatic, meaning "a day spent in idleness or frivolity". There are different dialects between the Valleys, I'm afraid to say. The situation of Welsh is actually in a poor state. Although the Welsh Language is a major part of everyday life, Welsh-speaking or not, there is little standardisation. There is of course a Standard Literal Official form of Welsh, whatever you want to call it. However, few people were taught this form of Welsh and picked it up from their parents without learning grammar or spelling. And when you speak this Welsh to people, they might not understand, but become confused and begin to get abrupt because they don't like to be made to feel less Welsh. However, this should NOT deter you at all. Most people will be overcome with joy to know that an effort is being made to recognise and use Welsh. The best thing to do, is to pick North or South. I would say South because it's my opinion that Southern Welsh is leading the way for standardisation. Once you have Welsh to a good level, you will understand words because you will use common sense to fill gaps or recognise the similarity of the word to either the Standard Welsh word or very often, the English word. E.g. in my dialect we say "ffili" which comes from the English word "fail". And we say, "falle" from Standard Welsh "efallai". Welsh is becoming increasingly normalised. Children now are learning Standard Welsh at school. Learners need not worry. And we are grateful and pleased to know that you exist!  Keep up the good work - don't be intimidated! |
| Posted by: gwenynen 02-May-2005, 07:31 AM |
| 'Gorymdaith' is translated as 'Protest March.' I figured out from your description of the novel. I've read it once before but I'll read it again since it's so short. I'll see if I can get the Welsh version for it or 'Ffair Gaeaf' to see what you mean by Roberts' poking fun of hwntws. Thanks for your encouraging words for learners. I'll take your advice and stick to one diarect, maybe Southern as you say. I don't think I'll ever be able to produce the nasal sound of Northern Welsh. |
| Posted by: Siarls 02-May-2005, 10:14 AM |
| Southern Welsh is easier, I think. Another reason I say this is that we have a much larger English vocabulary than Northern Welsh. A lot of people think this is sad and that is contributing to the death of Welsh. I say that every language evolves and an unevolving language is a lifeless language. |
| Posted by: susieq76 03-May-2005, 08:58 AM |
| So, is Kate Roberts a non-fiction writer? Are there any fiction writers you would recommend, Siarls? I do love Rhys Bowens novels, but she seems to be all I can find at the library right now.... Any help would be great. Thanks for the tip on picking a dialect. I think I will go with Southern Welsh, if I can. It will be easier to pick up with more English words, and then I can move on to other dialects. |
| Posted by: Siarls 03-May-2005, 03:51 PM |
| Kate Roberts is a fictional writer. I was recently reading Llion Iwan. He's quite good - the Welsh version of Dan Brown. Don't worry about moving to other dialects, as long as you speak Standard Welsh with a knowledge of spoken Welsh... every dialect will come TO YOU! |
| Posted by: susieq76 06-May-2005, 12:08 PM |
| Sure thing - I will see what I can find of his. |
| Posted by: Siarls 07-May-2005, 03:53 PM |
| I got my essay back on Kate Roberts. I got a B. 2 marks from an A. He said what pulled me down were dialectal expressions/words. I thought I could mix and match. Clearly not. |
| Posted by: gwenynen 07-May-2005, 06:50 PM |
Hitia di befo, Siarls.  |
| Posted by: gwenynen 13-Jun-2005, 03:08 PM |
| Here is a poem by late Gwynfor Evans, written to one of his grandchildren on her 15th birthday. I found it on BBC. Pe cawn fy newis o bob blodyn pert sy'n bod, Y rhosyn coch, neu las, y llwyn neu bansi, O'r blodau prydferth oll a'm llona' is y rhod, Angharad fach yw'r floden gipia'm ffansi. It's so simple yet beautiful. I wouln't dare translate the whole thing in fear of messing up the poem. Just the summary: Of all the flowers, Angharad (the granddaughter) is the prettiest to her grandfather. |
| Posted by: gwenynen 23-Jun-2005, 01:56 PM |
| Has anyone read "Y Môr yn eu Gwaed" by T. Llew Jones? It's for children (Welsh speaking children, mind) but far more challenging than books written for learners. But it's interesting! I try reading it without using a dictionary as much as possible. Amazingly, even when I don't know some words or grammar, I somehow can figure them out after a while. O, it's so exhilarating to be able to follow the stories! As I was a big fan of C.S.Forester's "Hornblower" (I read all the books in the series,) the sailing theme is so appealing. "Y Môr" is actually parts of stories taken from three books; I want to read the whole of "Barti Ddu." I hope someone reads this post; no one seems to post outside the Welsh learning threads. |
| Posted by: Siarls 23-Jun-2005, 02:58 PM |
| T Llew Jones is very famous in Wales. There was even a documentary on him recently saying what an appealing author he is to children and adults alike. I haven't read much of his work, but I'd like to read more. Let me know what you think of Barti Ddu. The "Wales" section does seem a little neglected recently, but I don't have enough energy to spark conversations. For the time being, I'm just responding to things. Once I'm back to my regular self, I'll be provoking interest in our interesting community. |
| Posted by: gwenynen 26-Jun-2005, 12:51 PM |
| I read T Llew's interview on the web. It's interesting. He's 90 years old! He says he likes to hear from children who read his books and tell him how they enjoy them. So I'm writing to him though I'm not a child! I read about Barti Ddu in a Learn Welsh newsletter before and was quite fascinated. Here's a brief description of him for whoever is interested: Barti Ddu or Bartholomew Roberts was the most successful pirate in the world. He was born in Little Newcastle in Pembrokeshire. He always wore colourful clothes. He was couteous (if I remember correctly from a website.) Wales had many pirates and there is even a book just on that subject. I enjoyed "Y Môr yn eu Gwaed" so much! There's an interesting scene in "Barti Ddu." Barti and his friend, after pressed into a warship, get shipwrecked and rescured by a pirate ship. When the capten spoke in English, they knew right away he was Welsh and from Pembrokeshire. He tries to persuade those who were rescured from the shipwreck to join the pirates. He asks Barti and his friend, "What about you two?' Then Barti replies in Welsh.... I have a question, Siarls about some words. I'll post in 'Croeso i Gymru.' Antwn, Austaff, I hope you'll post in the Welsh threads too. |
| Posted by: Antwn ap Ioan 12-Aug-2005, 01:23 PM |
| Like Siarls, I haven't posted much on other threads, but I'd like to be more active too. Where did you get these books Gwen, from Gomer? I'd like to read them too. I feel the same way you do, I really enjoy when I can figure something out without having to consult a dictionary. Sometimes I'm able to read something in Welsh without translating it into English in my head. That's really exciting for me, though it happens only rarely for a few passages. I really have to build my vocabulary alot more. I've bought some books by Rhiannon Davies, Kate Roberts and Robin Llewelyn but he's a little harder for me to follow. I have Harri Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone in Welsh too, but I think I'd have a better time of it if I got some books for either children or learners. Any other recommendations would be appreciated. Also, if you'd post where you got the books, that would be great. Thanks. Antwn |
| Posted by: gwenynen 12-Aug-2005, 03:13 PM |
| Hi Antwn. Glad to find you here. I bought the book from gwales.com. I wish I bought it from gomer. I think their shipping is a lot cheaper than gwales. And they have more of T. Llew's books. I went to gomer after I already ordered the book. I would have bought "Barti Ddu" instead. "Y Môr.." is portions of three of his books. You can sample them and see which one you like but then you wouldn't be able to read the whole stories. Interestingly, in his letter to me, T. Llew himself says he was against the idea of portions of his three books put together in one book, but the editor got his way! So I recommend you'd browse through gomer and pick what you want. Another book I like is "Cysgod yn y Coed" by Lois Arnold. She was the winner for the Learner of the Year in the National Eisteddfod last year. This book is for learners and it may be too easy for you but I find it quite useful. She has so many useful handy expressions I can copy. All the 9 stories are interesting too. I read them over and over. As a matter of fact, I wrote to her too and she sent me a kind message. Happy reading! |
| Posted by: Siarls 13-Aug-2005, 06:46 AM |
| I'm not sure if I have said this already at another point, but according to experts, the Welsh Bible is an excellent place to learn Welsh. Standard Welsh is based on the Bible's Language that was constructed to be accessible to all the dialect. According to a programme I watched on S4C about Religion in Wales, the Welsh Bible is also supposed to be closer to the original Hebrew (or whichever language the Bible was originally in before Latin) than the English. |
| Posted by: Antwn ap Ioan 13-Aug-2005, 02:04 PM |
| Gwenynen, thanks for the ideas. I'd like to read about Black Bart. I also want to get some books for learners too. I think I'd heard an interview with Lois Arnold on Radio Cymru. You can access previously recorded interviews on their website. I believe it was her since the interview was with the winner of the learner of the year award. I could only understand certain passages, but I enjoyed listening to it. You might want to investigate it on that site. Often people on Radio Cymru speak so fast I can't make out what they're saying. Fortunately she didn't speak as rapidly so she was easier to understand. Siarls, croeso 'nol. Yes, I'd often thought of reading the Bible in Welsh. I think its an excellent idea. I agree it woud be a great way to learn. I've read some passages already since one of my grammar books (by David Thorne) quotes it alot, often to compare grammar differences between the 1955 and 1988 versions. Its interesting that for me the Welsh is easier to understand than the King James English version once I've translated it, since that language is so archaic and the Welsh is much more direct. I haven't read if its closer to the Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic or not personally but it doesn't surprise me. I did read somewhere that the 16th century Morgan translation was done directly from the original languages, due to his incredible scholarship and knowledge of them. What do you think? Would it be better to use the 1988 translation since the language usage is more contemporary? Though I like learning inflected verbs I don't want to pick up too many habits to make my Welsh too out of date. I saw on another message board in Welsh where someone had used "dyfod" in a sentence, and another member teased her by asking "have you been reading the Welsh Bible?" I had to laugh because I can relate to the difficulty sometimes choosing what form of a verb to use when you have several grammar books using various verb forms and pronouns, some of which are not used very often anymore. That's when it helps to read alot I guess. Do you know where I can get a copy of the 1988 translation? Would you recommend that version, or the 1955? Or would you suggest the 16th century Morgan translation? I have a copy of Llyfr y Tri Aderyn written sometime in the 1600's and the Welsh in that book is wonderful. I'd appreciate any suggestions you have Siarls about which Bible translation you'd suggest getting and where to find it. Which version do most people in Wales use? Which would be the best to learn formal Welsh from? Oh Gwen!! On a related note, since that conversation you had on Welsh Learners a while back about not using Dwn i ddim, I have seen it written several times! Once on Cymru'r Byd I remember, and once in a Kate Roberts Novel, Y Byd Sy'n Cysgu. So it looks to me like its used by some people. Antwn |
| Posted by: Siarls 15-Aug-2005, 05:45 AM |
| I shall do research. I'm sorry to say that I am not particularly religious and have never actually read the Bible. But Welsh Language experts insist on the genius of the Welsh Language and I think I shall soon be studying it. (The Language rather than the Bible itself). We've already looked at a couple of passages. |
| Posted by: gwenynen 15-Aug-2005, 08:24 AM |
| Antwn, I like Barti Ddi because I've read a little about him; he was the most successful pirate in the world. And I used to like reading CS Forester's Hornblower as well as about Nelson and the British Navy in the days of sailing ships. There are numerous other books T Llew wrote which may be more to your interest. So, just look around and pick one of your interest. I did try listening to Lois Arnold's interview on Beti a'i Phobl last year. She certainly spoke a lot slower than Beti but still it was beyond me. I was simply amazed that she's learned Welsh so quickly. I hear she's started only 6 or 7 years ago. I believe the Welsh Bible was revised for the first time in 1988. Up till then, it was William Morgan's translation. I didn't know they made something in 1955. I haven't looked at Morgan's but I have a 1988 edition. It sure sounds quite literally to me. They published another edition last year, but as far as I know the change they made was in the area of 'gender issue' which has been a big issue in the States too. So the style of Welsh remains the same. There is a paraphrased version of New Testament. You can read the entire N Testament on the web: http://www.beibl.net/ It's in modern Welsh but as the purpose of this translation is to help young Welsh speakers and learners (young and old!) understand the Bible, it's rather wordy. 1988 edition is fast disappearing as they are promoting 2004 edition. It took me almost half a year to obtain one at e-bay. You can buy 2004 edition easily from Welsh Bible Society. Here's a good site: http://www.walesontheweb.org/cayw/index/en/220/all Reading the Welsh Bible is an excellent way to get used to the literally Welsh for me since I'm familiar with the content and know what the Welsh is supposed to mean even when I don't understand the Welsh itself. Kate Roberts used "Dwn i ddim" in a dialog of a little girl in "Te yn y Grug". And considering some Welsh speakers think it's ungramatical, I now avoid using it and stick to "Wn i ddim." |
| Posted by: Antwn ap Ioan 15-Aug-2005, 10:35 AM |
| Diolch yn fawr for the info Gwen. Like Siarls, I'm not a big Bible reader and read it only as literature. In this case also to help me learn the more formal literary language. Thanks again for the suggestions. Antwn |
| Posted by: Siarls 15-Aug-2005, 02:03 PM |
| If you want/need any books - of course they are in ready supply here and I can post them to you. I have been meaning to make CDs as well - but my lack of computer skills is making it difficult! The same with photos. I keep asking my brothers and mother to help me, but they just lose me. |
| Posted by: gwenynen 15-Aug-2005, 06:16 PM |
| I understand your predicament, Siarls. I'm using the computer with the basic possibe knowledge, the same way I drive my car without a slightest idea for what to do should something goes wrong (I'd just call my husband!) I'm sure you aren't as helpless as I am, though. I hope you'd succeed in making a CD. I'd love to hear you speak both Welsh and English. |
| Posted by: gwenynen 26-Sep-2005, 11:11 PM |
| Finally "Xenophobe's Guide to the Welsh" has arrived. It took amazon.com almost 3 months! (Heini Gruffudd's grammar book isn't available through them.) It was so amusing that I finished it in one day. The topics on mothers' power, beer, rugby and Japanese employers were particularly funny. (How Japanese consider sick leaves is amazingly accurate!) Siarls, how much do you think is true? Do you disagree with any of the description of the Welsh characteristics? Has anyone else read this book? |
| Posted by: Siarls 27-Sep-2005, 03:39 PM |
| I think it's more or less accurate, actually. Some things I feel are generally Celtic, British, European and even human! Nonetheless, it has put a very humorous twist on Welsh culture. Some things don't apply to my family, but I can certainly see it's true because of friends! The National Assembly is amazingly accurate and although Xenophobe's makes it quite humorous, it is in fact incredibly frustrating for us. There is one thing I slightly disagree with. The opening lines on page 5. I feel that the Welsh cannot wait to mention that they are Welsh, even if they don't boast about it and that this in turn is the consequence of a slight national inferiority complex. And the joke about the breaches of the laws of hospitality (page 45) - hysterical! I cried with laughter at that point!!!!! |
| Posted by: gwenynen 27-Sep-2005, 09:25 PM |
| Is that so? Another question: who has more power, Secretary of State for the Welsh Offie or the First Minister of the National Assembly? Do they work together or are they more like rivals? Also, what do you think of "cleanliness" - If it's not clearn, it's destined to stay so? This is an interesting topic as Japanese are passionately cleanliness conscious (some may be obsessed!) This may be due to their national religion, Shintoism (not that people believe in it. It's more like a tradition.) Outword cleansing is an important aspect of the religion. That's why they never wear outside shoes in the house. I encourage anyone interested in Wales to read this book. It's informative as well as highly entertaining. |
| Posted by: gwenynen 06-Jan-2006, 08:42 AM |
| Gorffenais i 'Barti Ddu' gan T Llew Jones. Roedd e mor gyffrous! Mae cymaint o eiriau newydd ynddo, siwr o fod. Hir iawn ydy rhai frawddegau. Ond dw i'n fodlon mod i wedi ei ddarllen. Mae'n rhagorol. Prynais i 'Tân ar y Comin' hefyd. Sgrifenna i amdano ar ôl gorffen. --- I finished Barti Ddu by T Llew Jones. It was so exciting! There are great many new words, to be sure, and some sentences are very long. But I'm content to have read it. It's spleandid. I bought Tân ar y Comin too. I'll write about it when I'm done. |
| Posted by: gwenynen 21-Jan-2006, 02:50 PM |
| Gorffenais i Tân ar y Comin hanner wedi un o'r gloch y bore ma. (Methais i atal ei ddarllen!) Mae'n eitha gwahanol o Barti Ddu ond yn gystal â fe. Stori sipwsiwn ydy e. Dysgais i typin amdanyn nhw hefyd trwy'r llyfr. Mae ffilm Tân ar y Comin 'da Cymdeithas Madog. Dw i newydd ofyn iddi fenthyca hon a Last Days of Dolwyn. ----- I finished Tân ar y Comin at half past one this morning. (Couldn't stop reading it!) It's quite different from Barti Ddu but just as good. It's a story about gypsies. I learned a little about them thru the book too. A Welsh Society has a film. I just asked them to loan it and Last Days of Dolwyn. |