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> A Point Of Interest For Canadians, please, I'm begging you to read this
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oldraven 
Posted: 24-Nov-2004, 08:41 PM
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Something you should know about.

I just found this out today, and am doing every thing I can to find out more about it. Please read the article in its entirity. Be skeptical if you want, but I ask, can you take the risk of this amounting to something? Be assured, it has already started. It began in 2000, when all of your personal information and even tax records were handed over to the US Department of Defense.

As for Americans, I imagine you want our military present in your society as much as we want yours. I hope you understand why this is so extremely alarming.

Anyway, I call upon you all to ask your MLA what this is all about. They most likely don't have a clue, but get them to look into it. That's what they're payed for, after all.

Paul, you can move this into politics if you feel it's necesary, but I'm trying to reach every Canadian I can with this, and I know it would be missed if moved in there.


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birddog20002001 
Posted: 24-Nov-2004, 09:21 PM
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Adam I hope that I speak for all of the Americans here that I do support Canada in it's fight to maintain soverignty from the US and I do hope that the article was just the rantings of a paranoid man. But remember though, just because your paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you. God only knows what would happen in Quebec if this were true, they don't like sharing a government with English speakers let alone being ruled by Yankees.


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oldraven 
Posted: 24-Nov-2004, 09:49 PM
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Thanks birddog. I do appreciate your support. But I really don't doubt any of it. If you knew much of anything abut Cretien, I know he would have opposed this. The new plans for a North American Mistle Defense Network, which I'm sure you have heard about, would be yet another step into this Unified Northern military presence.

Now, I'm the last person to be swayed by the conspiracy theories and paranoid rantings, but if you go through the article, there is more than enough supportive documents throughout. Neither government is really hiding this plan from their people, they simply aren't going public with it.
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vorlich 
Posted: 24-Nov-2004, 10:11 PM
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It sounds like hot air to me. Far-fetched, the stuff of Hollywood. -Vorlich
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oldraven 
Posted: 24-Nov-2004, 11:06 PM
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Did you read it? Or just the obviously biased headline?

Could you take that chance?
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AShruleEgan 
Posted: 24-Nov-2004, 11:41 PM
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Nice article Adam. Very interesting reading.

As I'm sure you know, U.S. military has been stationed in Canada for many years, for obvious reasons. The 9/11 event only amplified the need for weeding at terrorists of all kinds. I'm sure it's a very big step for the Canadian government to hand over vital information about their citizens to the U.S. but they must understand clearly, the need for following money trails, certain people who may be considered dangerous to a free world and many other aspects related to terrorism.

It's never enjoyable having "Big Brother" hanging over our shoulder but since 9/11 it's the price of freedom we all have to pay.

Adam, if you come across more info on this, post it on here.
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oldraven 
Posted: 25-Nov-2004, 12:21 AM
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Thanks Egan. I do have a bit more information, but I want to read it all through before sharing it. This piece has a good amount of credibility to it, considering the amount of government refferences, both US and CAN. I'd rather be sure the other is decently credible before putting it out there.

I can see how this may be helpfull to the cause of tracking down terrorists, but I ask you, would you passively sit by as your personal information was shared with a government agency you don't entirely trust. And yes, I have a good many reasons not to trust the Pentagon. If for no other reason than the fact that no one has a right to my life story but me and my own.

And though the US military has had very limited presence here, in remote areas of our country, they have never held jurisdiction here. They have never been given the freedom to arrest our citizens, or act in martial law, or in the most severe instance stated here, they have never had the power to supercede our own military. The war on terror has everyone terrified of the states. That is not the way things work between allies.

If your government were to open the doors, and let, oh, say, the British military, freely patrol your waters, lands, and skies, would you not take issue with it? They are your allies, but does that not seem like you're leaving yourself wide open to take over? Now imagine that military force being about the size of the Chinese military in comparison to your own. I know I won't rest easy tonight. sad.gif
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AShruleEgan 
Posted: 25-Nov-2004, 01:41 AM
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The military have the right to arrest here in the U.S. but it is very rarely used. I think (I may be wrong), that the U.S. was given the right for arrest in Canada for the same reason they have it here. It will be used only when necessary under military actions. The local jurisdiction will continue to handle the day to day dealings. The military doesn't want to be bothered arresting the average Joe for speeding or being a public nuisance. That's not what they are really there for.

It seems to be giving the U.S. soldier patrolling Canada the right to arrest known terrorists without having to deal with lawsuits or even having the terrorists remain in the shadows plotting whatever, simply because the Canadian authorities haven't located this person. Extra eyes and ears, isn't a bad thing. It just depends on how it is used.

You feel like your country is being invaded (and rightfully so) by the U.S. but we know that our economies and security work hand in hand. We do need to continue working together in order for us to enjoy the quality of life that we expect.

Both countries obviously know something that they aren't telling the general public. The threat must be high in order for the Canadian government to agree to allow all information about their own citizens be handed over to the U.S. I see no other reason for the Canadians to offer this kind of co-operation.
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TheCarolinaScotsman 
Posted: 25-Nov-2004, 08:46 AM
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I clicked on the link listed in the article for the Center for Globalization Research. If you scan the list of articles and read some of them, it becomes painfully obvious that the group is viruently anti-US and uses half truths, insinuations and outright lies to argue their point. One case in point, they claim that the beheadings of hostages in Iraq is a classic US intelligence operation to discredit the opposition forces of Iraq.

I well understand your concern OldRaven, but remember that US-Canadian military co-operation goes back at least fifty years. (Remember the old DEW Line and NORAD?) I can assure you that the average US citizen would be just as shocked as the average Canadian if the US were to attempt to "take over" Canada. We wouldn't stand for it anymore than you. This sounds like distorted reporting of the process of two governments trying to work closely together to combat "unconventional threats" to the security of both countries. And the ones doing the distorting have their own agenda to advance.


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MacEoghainn 
Posted: 25-Nov-2004, 09:03 AM
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ZodiacHazel

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It would appear to me that Canada is not immune to having their own "Black Helicopter" conspiracy theorists (here in the U.S. they believe in a secret U.N. plan to take over the United States, I believe Canada is considered to be the headquarters for those operations).


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oldraven 
Posted: 25-Nov-2004, 09:32 AM
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I'd like to hear a Canadian perspective on this other than my own.

Yeah, it does sound like a conspiracy theory. I already admited that. But before I dismiss anything, I need to be 100% certain that it's completely unfounded.

I can see that a few of you only read a portion of it, because the sharing of intelligence is the least of my worries here. That's simply the portion that has already taken place. If there is even the slightest chance that this Binational Planning Group is looking to make a unified military, and place that military within the borders of my country, widespread, I'm going to do what I can to stop it.

And if US intelligence finds a wanted terrorist within Canada, I still don't see how it would be a good thing to allow the US military to arrest that person. Inform the Canadian Armed Forces, and we'll go get him for you. Despite what you may have been lead to believe, our military isn't THAT useless. Just underfunded.

Its' just poor leadership to even think of allowing an outside organization to supercede our own military control. This isn't exactly a new fear, here in Canada. I speak with plenty of Americans every day, and there is a huge portion who pose a severe threat to my freedom. How many countries in this world have given up control, or had it taken away, by the US military forces?

The US armed forces are flat broke. There is a massive defecit in your economy. The last time Canada made a joint venture with the US, our economy plummetted like a rock in a still pond. NAFTA. Would you stand by and watch your government make that same mistake, but at a much more severe of a degree? I know you wouldn't.

The bottom line, it is simply not their place. I'm not asking you to believe it, I'm asking Canadians to read it.

And yes, I can diferentiate between US citizens and US government.
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vorlich 
Posted: 25-Nov-2004, 12:35 PM
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Short of complete anarchy all across N. America, I do not see how such a thing could ever happen. I do have some experience of Canada having lived and worked there. (at one time I was married to a Canadian) My memory of the people from the PM down is that they are militantly and proudly Canadian. Very nationalistic and rightly so. In close conversation, there was always an undercurrent of anti-Americanism. They know that to a large degree they are dependant on the US and some resent this. (when you sleep with an elephant, be careful when it rolls over!) I am just convinced that as long as Canadians all across this great land stay aware, alert and well-informed, that the kind of thing brought up by our writer will never happen. He is to be commended however for starting this thread and so helping to make sure that folks are informed. Thanks,- Vorlich
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Colin 
Posted: 25-Nov-2004, 01:08 PM
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I could not honestly see the Canadian Government allowing that to happen. Maybe if stephan Harper had been elected, but not under Martin. The Federal Liberals have way too many differences with the U.S Government. Canada has it's own international reputation, and holds alot of sway in the world community. Why would they give that up. Our military is one of the strongest peacekeeping forces in the world (and has been known as that for decades), they are not the machine that the US army is.

besides We are American anyway, North American. If this was really going to happen, Canada would have signed up for the missile defense program months ago. It has also been brought up that the US military has patrols in Canada. This may be true, but they hold not jurisdiction, and have to follow our rules and regulations while up here.

On the flip side, Bush seems hell bent on world domination, so this may be part of his plan unsure.gif

Canada and the US are different creatures, and I would be suprised if anyone wanted to jon them into one. It is mutually beneficial to have to separate entities. Besides, Canadains would revolt at the thought of being taken over, as would any society.


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oldraven 
Posted: 25-Nov-2004, 01:32 PM
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I agree with you both, wholeheartedly, except for the issue of Martin. I have said it over and over, that the worst thing to happen to the Liberal party was Cretien's retirement. He said no to these policies, but I wouldn't put it past Martin for a second. Practically his first day in office was spent finding Bush's arse, and his lips have been planted since. So you know, I voted for this man. Actually, I voted for the Liberals. They just happened to pick the worst leader yet. I wouldn't confuse Cretien's desire to stay out of Iraq with that of the Liberal party.

But like you said, Vorlich, this is about informing the public. If this plan has been in place since 2000, and no one has said anything about it, it's obviously being kept on the down low. Again, not kept secret, just not made public knowledge.

And you said it right, we do resent the fact that we are dependant on your military. Not that we've had a direct need for it yet, but if and when the time comes, we know our first reaction will be to ask our southern neighbours for help. It's the way it's always been, and the way it allways will be. And vice versa. The US never really needs our help, but we help just the same, and when they require it, they ask for it. Unless we take whatever money will have been spent on this unified military and place it where it belongs, in the already established Canadian Armed Forces, we will never be free of our reliance on the US military. Just like our even moreso reliance on the Commonwealth collective military.
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Colin 
Posted: 25-Nov-2004, 02:08 PM
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QUOTE (oldraven @ 25-Nov-2004, 01:32 PM)
I agree with you both, wholeheartedly, except for the issue of Martin. I have said it over and over, that the worst thing to happen to the Liberal party was Cretien's retirement. He said no to these policies, but I wouldn't put it past Martin for a second. Practically his first day in office was spent finding Bush's arse, and his lips have been planted since. So you know, I voted for this man. Actually, I voted for the Liberals. They just happened to pick the worst leader yet. I wouldn't confuse Cretien's desire to stay out of Iraq with that of the Liberal party.


I too voted for Martin. While I have never liked Chrietian, I did like some of his actions. I do like Martin, more for world issues, but haven't seen enough to judge him yet. I think MArtin was simply taking the first step in repairing a damaged relationship. Our two countries should be allowed to disagree without either side having a hissy fit and pouting. I think Chretian was similar to Bush in their personalities.

As for having lips attached to Bush's arse, I think you're looking at the wrong party leader. After all I still haven't even seen Stephan Harper or Ralph Klein's face, only the back of their heads. wink.gif
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