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Celtic Radio Community > The Grove > Wiccans: Evil Or Not


Posted by: Naked Dreamer 03-Oct-2003, 02:20 PM
Why does this modernized world think that us wiccans are of an evil breed of man?
Please help me understand why?!

Naked Dreamer

Posted by: barddas 03-Oct-2003, 02:55 PM
QUOTE (Naked Dreamer @ Oct 3 2003, 05:20 PM)
Why does this modernized world think that us wiccans are of an evil breed of man?
Please help me understand why?!

Naked Dreamer

I don't think everyone thinks that. Here's an example. When Christianity was coming about, the romans thought it was hearisy(SP) to their gods. Even though the Christians were doing nothing to anyone. When people do not understand something it is just gut reaction to fear it. Just cause or not.

Posted by: Shadows 03-Oct-2003, 11:16 PM
That is very true Bardass!!!
A good example is the pesicusion and killing of "witches" in Salem and England in the 16th century!

Most of the folks "punished" were god fearing christians that either were ecentric or had angered some folks in the community! Those that practiced the "arts" did so in private, and most never were found out!

We are not an evil people, we are loving to all creation. We believe that what ever we do has an effect on the world and our lives, if we do evil it is returned to us 3 fold, we do good it is the same. So why should we wish harm on ourselves, we strive for good...

Posted by: RavenWing 04-Oct-2003, 11:31 AM
QUOTE (Naked Dreamer @ Oct 3 2003, 09:20 PM)
Why does this modernized world think that us wiccans are of an evil breed of man?
Please help me understand why?!

Naked Dreamer

Unfortunately there have been a number of movies made and books written that tend to give people some prevonceived ideas about us.


I would also like to point out that peopl tend to believe all pagans are Wiccan, and this is not true either.

Posted by: scottish2 04-Oct-2003, 11:34 AM
It's like everything else in this world one group of people trying to dictate to another how they should live their lives. OK enugh said as if I continue it would get political and set me off on a rampage LOL wink.gif

Posted by: RavenWing 04-Oct-2003, 11:42 AM
You an your rants and rampages biggrin.gif

Posted by: Naked Dreamer 06-Oct-2003, 11:18 AM
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=7][COLOR=purple]
I thank you all for your comments, but please if you have an opinion that has not been shared please voice it. I really appreciate it. Warm and gentle breezes to you all.rockon.gif

MP,
Naked Dreamer
vampire.gif

Posted by: scottish2 06-Oct-2003, 12:46 PM
QUOTE (RavenWing @ Oct 4 2003, 01:42 PM)
You an your rants and rampages biggrin.gif

Ah someones got to speak out to many remaining silent. sad.gif

Posted by: Shadows 06-Oct-2003, 12:58 PM
QUOTE (scottish2 @ Oct 6 2003, 02:46 PM)
Ah someones got to speak out to many remaining silent. sad.gif

wink.gif Carefull! You might be sent to hell by well wishers or branded a trouble maker like me! tongue.gif

Posted by: scottish2 06-Oct-2003, 01:00 PM
Opps to late have already branded harder names then that by tax lovers on many a tax board LOL Seems that's the best they have is to name call.

Posted by: barddas 06-Oct-2003, 01:08 PM
QUOTE (Shadows @ Oct 4 2003, 02:16 AM)
That is very true Bardass!!!
A good example is the pesicusion and killing of "witches" in Salem and England in the 16th century!

Most of the folks "punished" were god fearing christians that either were ecentric or had angered some folks in the community! Those that practiced the "arts" did so in private, and most never were found out!

We are not an evil people, we are loving to all creation. We believe that what ever we do has an effect on the world and our lives, if we do evil it is returned to us 3 fold, we do good it is the same. So why should we wish harm on ourselves, we strive for good...

Interesting fact about the whole Salem thing. It has come to scientific conclusion that the mass hysteria in Salem, Mass was brought about by a fungus that grew on the wheat that was then used as food ie breads and so on. This particular fungi when consumed causes an LSD effect. The scientist have smaples of grain from the 2 sides of salem. One side was effected with the Fungi, the other not. If memory serves me correctly. I will try and find the report on this and post it else where. I thought you would find it interesting shadows!

Posted by: barddas 06-Oct-2003, 01:11 PM
QUOTE (Shadows @ Oct 6 2003, 03:58 PM)
wink.gif Carefull! You might be sent to hell by well wishers or branded a trouble maker like me! tongue.gif

That's what keeps it interesting shadows! wink.gif tongue.gif

Posted by: RavenWing 06-Oct-2003, 01:19 PM
QUOTE (scottish2 @ Oct 6 2003, 07:46 PM)
Ah someones got to speak out to many remaining silent. sad.gif

S-A-R-C-A-S-M

fish.gif

I'm just funnin ya!

Posted by: Shadows 06-Oct-2003, 01:29 PM
QUOTE (scottish2 @ Oct 6 2003, 03:00 PM)
Opps to late have already branded harder names then that by tax lovers on many a tax board LOL Seems that's the best they have is to name call.

Ain't that the way!! LOL!!! If it contradicts what ever they believe ( tax, religion, government ) they become name calling bigots.

I say live and let live, any government is to much government and the same goes for secular religions.

Remember the rule of three!

Posted by: scottish2 06-Oct-2003, 01:41 PM
yeah it's like I have one tax lover who is trying hard to ignore this high res scan I gave him of a corporation in Nevada. That Corporation is entitled the

Department of the Treasury Internal Revenue Service.

I asked him if the IRS is truely a legal agency they why does this corporation exist because if the IRS truely exists then this corporation is in violation of federal law yet almost 10 years later this corp is still in business. If you're interested here's the document

http://freedomloverma.tripod.com/IRSNevada.jpg

Posted by: Shadows 06-Oct-2003, 01:46 PM
QUOTE (barddas @ Oct 6 2003, 03:08 PM)
QUOTE (Shadows @ Oct 4 2003, 02:16 AM)
That is very true Bardass!!!
A good example is the pesicusion and killing of "witches" in Salem and England in the 16th century!

Most of the folks "punished" were god fearing christians that either were ecentric or had angered some folks in the community! Those that practiced the "arts" did so in private, and most never were found out!

We are not an evil people, we are loving to all creation. We believe that what ever we do has an effect on the world and our lives, if we do evil it is returned to us 3 fold, we do good it is the same. So why should we wish harm on ourselves, we strive for good...

Interesting fact about the whole Salem thing. It has come to scientific conclusion that the mass hysteria in Salem, Mass was brought about by a fungus that grew on the wheat that was then used as food ie breads and so on. This particular fungi when consumed causes an LSD effect. The scientist have smaples of grain from the 2 sides of salem. One side was effected with the Fungi, the other not. If memory serves me correctly. I will try and find the report on this and post it else where. I thought you would find it interesting shadows!

Yes I have seen that report, but the problem was happening in Europe at the same time! Was it from imported grain from the colonies, or did that fungus just happen in many places at once. The fungus is still amungus on rye that is not properly stored, but I do not see hangings, burnings nor drownings of witches today... long live Timothy Leary!

Thanks for the info !

Posted by: barddas 06-Oct-2003, 02:20 PM
QUOTE (Shadows @ Oct 6 2003, 04:46 PM)
QUOTE (barddas @ Oct 6 2003, 03:08 PM)
QUOTE (Shadows @ Oct 4 2003, 02:16 AM)
That is very true Bardass!!!
A good example is the pesicusion and killing of "witches" in Salem and England in the 16th century!

Most of the folks "punished" were god fearing christians that either were ecentric or had angered some folks in the community! Those that practiced the "arts" did so in private, and most never were found out!

We are not an evil people, we are loving to all creation. We believe that what ever we do has an effect on the world and our lives, if we do evil it is returned to us 3 fold, we do good it is the same. So why should we wish harm on ourselves, we strive for good...

Interesting fact about the whole Salem thing. It has come to scientific conclusion that the mass hysteria in Salem, Mass was brought about by a fungus that grew on the wheat that was then used as food ie breads and so on. This particular fungi when consumed causes an LSD effect. The scientist have smaples of grain from the 2 sides of salem. One side was effected with the Fungi, the other not. If memory serves me correctly. I will try and find the report on this and post it else where. I thought you would find it interesting shadows!

Yes I have seen that report, but the problem was happening in Europe at the same time! Was it from imported grain from the colonies, or did that fungus just happen in many places at once. The fungus is still amungus on rye that is not properly stored, but I do not see hangings, burnings nor drownings of witches today... long live Timothy Leary!

Thanks for the info !

go to the interview link, in the salem topic. It branches on the Europe thing a bit.

wink.gif

Posted by: Richard Bercot 06-Oct-2003, 02:44 PM
Well for one, I do not believe that Wiccans are evil. From my understanding, the Wiccans were healers.

Doctors today are afraid of Wiccans only for the fact that they do not understand herbal medicines.

Anyway, what better way to get rid of a person who disagreed with your ideas. If you did not like them, just accuse them as a witch and then they are history.

Of all the cemeteries I have stomped doing geneology. I have only seen one grave where the person was accused of witchcraft. And her Tombstone was set upside down.

Posted by: Shadows 06-Oct-2003, 03:06 PM
Wicca is more then herbs and crystals! It is a reverance for all life no matter how great or small! It is the belief that what ever you do effects everything around you and how everything around you effects you! Herbs heal, they are the basis of most modern medicines (spel), but not the basis of Wicca. It is more so how strongely you believe and the ability to transpose those beliefs into positive energy. Meditaion, going to alter, and knowing yourself are the only requirements and limitations you will encounter. Believe in life in all things and thank that which contributes to the success of your life and you can not go wrong!

Posted by: Richard Bercot 06-Oct-2003, 03:39 PM
Thank you Shadows, I stand corrected.

I have always thought that was the way anyhow. That is how I was raised.

That is why I usually put at the end of my posts, "May you walk in balance with Creator."

Posted by: Shadows 06-Oct-2003, 03:49 PM
QUOTE (Richard Bercot @ Oct 6 2003, 05:39 PM)
Thank you Shadows, I stand corrected.

I have always thought that was the way anyhow. That is how I was raised.

That is why I usually put at the end of my posts, "May you walk in balance with Creator."

Your beliefs are yours, mine should not effect yours! It seems you believe in the grand master of creation and that you play a role in the master plan for the universe. Never appologize for what you believe! I was not trying to correct you, just explain. The beliefs of one are between that person and their god/gods and should never be questioned by others!

Posted by: Swanny 07-Oct-2003, 01:54 AM
One's religion does not make one either good nor evil. That is determined by one's behavior.

Swanny

Posted by: Richard Bercot 07-Oct-2003, 11:15 AM
Shadows, I did not think I was apologizing of or for my Religion even though it is not a Religion but more of a belief. I was apologizing for my misconception of Wicca.

I personally feel that a persons belief is their own. And no person should tell another how they are to believe. The only thing that will change my belief is by Creator alone.

May you walk in balance with Creator.

Posted by: Annabelle 09-Oct-2003, 10:24 PM
I admit I don't know enough about the Wicca to place an opinion...I was at Stonehendge last December for the Winter Soltis (sp) They had a ceremony that seemed complicated but beautiful...it appeared to be honoring earth.
some things are so differnet it scares others...so don't take it personally..we aren't educated enough about it. The ceremony seemed to be directed into honoring earth and an supreme being...sounds like God to me.
If you look at all religion's they all have different names or identifyers but they point to one higher up...
Go figure!
I just want to be happy and enjoy every day as if it were my last!
Annabelle
angel_not.gif

Posted by: Boudica123 21-Oct-2003, 06:54 PM
I actually did a project on this... kinda... it was about how the salem witch trials and other witch trials never were publicly settled and because of that people believe wiccans worship satan or look like green faced goblins. Although I do believe in evil witches and good witches. It's a religion.. in a way... well that's just my opinion though

Posted by: McHaggis 22-Oct-2003, 10:58 AM
From personal experiences, I've never met an "evil" Wiccan. My girlfriend wasn't, her friends weren't. The worst thing I could accuse some of them was the generic throwing out of the baby with the bathwater in their dislike of more fundamental Christians, but I guess that sword cuts both ways. I think some folks become Wiccan or other pagans in order to express their personal "individuality" and be something "different" than what they see as the 'mainstream' of American (in this case) religion or culture in general. A sort of protest against politics and the status quo as well as just the religious aspect. Not all, just "some."

Ah well, to each their own.

RON

Posted by: Aaediwen 22-Oct-2003, 02:31 PM
I began my research into Wicca because I wanted to know what was so "evil" about it. What was so bad about it?
What I found is a hidden purity and truth that I can believe in. This gets into one of my pet peeves with old Rome, and although It does me no good to be ticked at someone who is long dead, let me get on my soapbox here

/rant on

Old Rome was a society of politics and conquest. They were committing acts of oppression in the name of their own deities for years before they converted to Christianity (look at Christ himself). Into this environment, comes an upstart group lead by someone preaching the truth, someone who has everything figured out at least to some degree. His followers think him God incarnate.

OK, fast forward over the part of history where Rome persecutes Christians as relentlessly as anyone else they don't like, to the conversion of Rome and an environment where we now have the Roman Catholic church, gone are the days of many Gods and Goddesses, but the bloodlust remains. "Hey! let's continue conquest in the name of spreading our way of thought; Spread the word of Christ and expand the empire while we're at it"

Everything up to this, I don't really have any problem with. I think they're hypocrites for using the teachings of Christ to justify bloody conquest, but they aren't the last. it's still going to happen, and for actually succeeding, ok; to the winner go the spoils. sure. I can live with that. Next comes my main gripe.

ok, Rome now controls xyz land, they've beaten the foe, yay for them. now, the people who have been living here for hundreds of years have their own beliefs and way of life, well that's not the *Roman* way, we can't have that nooo.... Everything that's not the Roman way of life, and anything that's not (Roman) "Christian" must be of Satan, inherently evil, and corrupt. hence it must be gotten rid of, and outlawed. anyone practicing it must either be converted or killed. Either conform and give up everything you are or die. This is how you exterminate cultures, my friends, this is how you commit Genocide! They're going to kill anyone who won't become Roman, and doing it in the name of a man who taught kindness and love. Not only are they wiping out cultures, they're corrupting their religon as well. "But Christ didn't teach that." "Ohh well, people don't know that. we'll say he did and that's how we'll teach it."

Then, of course, by the fall of Rome, the damage was done. the Roman Catholic church was the most powerful organization in the world and everyone there had been taught and was teaching all the *Roman* changes. I'd say that by then only a few members of the clergy might have realized that it was impure, but would be afraid to say anything if they were aware of it, surely it would have ment death.

Then you end up with poor souls like St. Patrick, who although I'd say he was a pure soul, living by Christ's word as best he knew how, spreading and teaching the word. He would have been taught from infancy a Christianity tainted by the bloodlust of an old Rome. He would have only known a Christianity that said anything that wasn't Christian (wasn't Roman, but Rome is no longer the power it was) was the Devil's work. How is he to know any different?

This has been quietly passed down since then, and I'd say most of the people passing it down don't even think about the fact that their messiah might have taught completely different from what they are teaching. One of these elements being the notion that anything that is not Christian is the devil's work, Wicca and Druidism included. However.

/rant off

However, Rome's Genocide was not a complete success, and the Pagan ways and religon still live on. And in my studies of them, seeking the truth, I have found 2 kinds. Either pure people, with a better heart than most avid Christians or people who only got into it because of the spells and magick and don't really care for the core meaning of the religon itself. Now, I'm sure that there are some dark Witches in the world, I just haven't found any true Witches who do not carry a good heart. Contrast that with the Christian world and I almost believe I haven't seen enough. Of course my studies still continue, and I feel that the best route for me now would be to hang out with a coven, but I just don't know of any. I know some pagans, and some witches, but no groves or covens at the current time.

I think I have found the answer I originally sought though. "What is so evil about the pagan religons? What is witchcraft really, and what is so evil about it?"
Answer: "nothing inherantly evil about it. Everything has the potential for good or bad, but the only good or bad is in the heart of the Witch. Ever mind the rule of three. Let the natural world tend to itself, and what you put forth to others will find its way back to you."

Kindness and well being to all

God bless you all
Merry meet, and Merry part. Blessed be.

Posted by: Richard Bercot 22-Oct-2003, 06:36 PM
Aaediwen,

Well said, Aaediwen, well said!

Posted by: oldraven 25-Oct-2003, 04:39 PM
Sorry if this has been said already, but I'm not in for reading the whole thread. I'll just give my opinion.

People have this image of evil when they think of witchcraft because for centuries it was beaten into our heads by the Roman Catholic church, and by power hungry Magistrates. Recently many more people are becoming open minded about religions in general, and accept them, though they may never follow them, or agree with them. Acceptance is all we can hope for, and those of you in North America may not feel accepted, but your government is now open to all religions. It's up to the people to follow suit.

As for the Wiccan religion itself, I don't take it any more seriously than Scientology. Simply for the fact that it's barely 100 years old. Try to refute that if you will, I'll just support it with facts. That's not to say I don't take the people seriously, just not the religion.

Point is, if you want to follow it, I'll not think any less of you. If it makes you happy, then by all means, be a Wiccan. It's a belief of peace and love, and to me, that's all I could hope for anyone. Angela actually has lots of interest and support for this creed. smile.gif





p.s.
I really hope this isn't taken as an attack. Being a Christian, I know what it's like to be targeted and ridiculed for my religion, and that's the last thing I want people to think I'm doing.

Posted by: Shadows 25-Oct-2003, 09:23 PM
Yes the name Wicca is relitivly new, but the belief system is not... Paganism ( wicca , a name given to the beliefs because paganism conjured up misconcieved images of barbaric, blood drinking, infant killing monsters ) is as old as mankind itself. It is right up there with the worlds oldest profession!

Wicca is not this new age mumbo jumbo that most associate it with. It is instead the belief in all things are equal and must be reviered as such and how one reacts to the world around one's self! It can have many dieties or just one... it is a personal belief system .

Posted by: oldraven 25-Oct-2003, 09:43 PM
Yes, I know. Paganism isn't new, not by a long shot. There were many earth based religions in play in what is now known as the UK before Christ was born. But that is not Wicca in particular. It's just a modern look at an old belief.

Posted by: RavenWing 27-Oct-2003, 09:22 AM
unfirtunately, there aree a lot of people out there that like to believe that Wicca is thousands of years old..but it isn't. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: bhalilama 27-Oct-2003, 10:15 AM
O.K. here goes....This is not in reply to anyone's post specifically. It's just my 2 cents worth. angel_not.gif The original question was why does the modern socitey call WICCA evil,right? We have an inheirent need to label anything and everyone,then align ourselves with a certian group. As you all have said,sometimes the group we are a "part" of doesn't really have a complete correlation to what we belive ,yet we feel secure if not "right" being in this group. This is mostly due to the enviornment we are born into,ie.family,part of the world, etc. It's what we "know". It's what we have been shown or taught or witnessed. As we get into our teen years,more or less, we have a tendency to rebel against this environment. We have to start finding the "answers" for ourselves.For some this is a validation of the teachings we have had:for some it is a move to the complete oppisite:and for some it is a lifelong pursuit .unfortunely, when we "get settled" we tend to believe that we are smarter,more devout and more "right" than anyone has ever been in the history of forever. That's where " bad"."wrong",and "evil" labels start getting applied.

Here's hoping ya'll get to live a life that you enjoy regardless of labels!!! biggrin.gif
Blessed Be.

Posted by: Celeste of the Stars 31-Oct-2003, 06:10 PM
QUOTE (Shadows @ Oct 4 2003, 12:16 AM)
That is very true Bardass!!!
A good example is the pesicusion and killing of "witches" in Salem and England in the 16th century!


unfortunately we are still be persecuted today. There are actually modern day "witch hunters" they actually kill people who claim to be witches. They are called the Triads.
unfortunately some witches can be evil. Then again there are some like myself who are healers.

Posted by: McHaggis 31-Oct-2003, 06:49 PM
And here would be the perfect time to point out a translation problem in the King James version of The Bible. The injunction that people quote a lot : "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," is not entirely correct. The oldest translations suggest that passage was meant to read "Thou shalt not suffer a necromancer to live." Something entirely different....and if I was that Jonathan Edwards guy on "Crossing Over" I'd be watching my back.

My dealings with Wiccans has been just fine, thank you, even the one I was dating back on the farm; I may disagree on ritual here and there, but I disagree on most ritual in most religions...I'm just iconoclastic that way. I have a great respect for the herbalisitic nature of the old religions, scientifically not exactly correct all the time, but certainly on the right track.

And I am in accord with the statement that modern Wiccan beliefs are a modern look at a much older religion..as it appears there is very little if any historical documentation that has survived concerning practices of the Earth religions.if we discount oral tradition, that is.

RON

Posted by: Celeste of the Stars 31-Oct-2003, 07:15 PM
QUOTE (McHaggis @ Oct 31 2003, 07:49 PM)
.


And I am in accord with the statement that modern Wiccan beliefs are a modern look at a much older religion..as it appears there is very little if any historical documentation that has survived concerning practices of the Earth religions.if we discount oral tradition, that is.

RON

Some would tend to disagree with you not to say that you are wrong though. I am a solitary witch that practices healing. Many of my rituals and beliefs are very much in accordance with the "old ways" and I have done all of my studies from books both new and old.

Posted by: oldraven 31-Oct-2003, 09:16 PM
QUOTE (Celeste of the Stars @ Oct 31 2003, 08:15 PM)
Some would tend to disagree with you not to say that you are wrong though. I am a solitary witch that practices healing. Many of my rituals and beliefs are very much in accordance with the "old ways" and I have done all of my studies from books both new and old.

Then why wouldn't you claim to be a Pagan Healer, rather than a Wiccan? It's more accurate, is it not?

Posted by: Celeste of the Stars 31-Oct-2003, 09:42 PM
QUOTE (oldraven @ Oct 31 2003, 10:16 PM)
Then why wouldn't you claim to be a Pagan Healer, rather than a Wiccan? It's more accurate, is it not?

Yes and no. Not all pagans are wiccans. I call myself a Wiccan healer to be more accurate(I think thats the word I'm looking for)

Posted by: oldraven 31-Oct-2003, 10:05 PM
I realise that. I'm saying that Wiccan is not really that old of a religion, and is a Pagan religion. I'm wondering if you asociate more with the anchient pagan religions, or the modern (Wicca)?

Posted by: Celeste of the Stars 31-Oct-2003, 10:09 PM
QUOTE (oldraven @ Oct 31 2003, 11:05 PM)
I realise that. I'm saying that Wiccan is not really that old of a religion, and is a Pagan religion. I'm wondering if you asociate more with the anchient pagan religions, or the modern (Wicca)?

Wicca is an older religion than most people think. Yes it is a newer version, but most still follow the old ways. Its a new name for an old face biggrin.gif

Posted by: McHaggis 31-Oct-2003, 11:45 PM
Now I'm REALLY curious.....how old are the books you use? Can you name me a couple. I'm asking as a student of religions. So please enlighten and educate me.

RON

Posted by: Dreamer1 01-Nov-2003, 10:23 AM
McHaggis,

You may want to start by reading "Drawing Down The Moon" by Margot Adler. I've also read "Green Withcraft" and "Green Witchcraft II" by Aoumiel (sp?), "The Encyclopedia of Magical Herbs" by Scott Cunningham, and now am in the middle of "Wicca, a Guide For The Solitary Practitioner" by Scott C. I've heard lots of people recommend "The Spiral Dance" by Starhawk (I think), though I haven't read it yet. These are just beginnings, mind you. But it's a start towards better understanding.

Any other recommendations, anyone? I know there was another thread along these lines, too. Can we expand it?

Dreamer1

Posted by: Dreamer1 01-Nov-2003, 10:29 AM
OK, I should have checked the rest of this forum. There's a complete Book Recommendations section! (blushing furiously, feeling foolish) oops.gif

Sorry all.

Dreamer1

Posted by: McHaggis 01-Nov-2003, 12:29 PM
Thanks, Dreamer.....I'm familiar with most of these through my old Wicca girlfriend, who, incidently, claimed she knew both Starhawk and Z Budapest.

Of course you are familiar with The Maleus Malafacarium (pardon my spelling) aka The Hammer Of Witches, the German manual for witchfinders back in the 1500s.

It is an amazing look at what the Catholic mindset was in those days during the purge. I'm, of course, not suggesting that it represents anything even CLOSE to my views...in fact I'm 180 degrees in the opposite direction...but it is still an enlightening historical document into a set of beliefs during those times....as is Wonders Of The Invisible World by Cotton (or was it Increase?) Mather around the times of the Salem Trials, both of which I read during my college days as part of a research project.

RON

Posted by: Celeste of the Stars1 02-Nov-2003, 03:18 PM
QUOTE (McHaggis @ Nov 1 2003, 12:45 AM)
Now I'm REALLY curious.....how old are the books you use? Can you name me a couple. I'm asking as a student of religions. So please enlighten and educate me.

RON

My 2x greatgrand mothers book of shadows and diary

Posted by: Shadows 02-Nov-2003, 06:42 PM
Books are wonderful sources of knowledge, but the learning of the craft is better served by a mentor. Books are so impersonal and can not tell you where you went off course. Just my opinion.

Posted by: Swanny 02-Nov-2003, 07:50 PM
Shadows, will you puh-leeez get out of my brain??? <LOL>. It looks like once again we're sharing the same thought process. We have GOT to get together at the same time and place some day. No telling what may happen but I'd bet it will be spectacular.

The problem with relying upon books is that it's impossible to gauge the sincerity or truthfulness of the author. This is particularly troublesome when studying beliefs or belief systems that are traditionally passed down through the generations orally, rather than written. This is the case of Native American beliefs.

I've been hesitant to post this, but I've been mulling it over for a couple of days now. I truly don't wish to disappoint or disparage those who are honestly seeking spiritual knowlege, but there are people both White and Native who spread a lot of crap disguised as "Native Wisdom". So, how does one judge what is reliable versus what should be spread in the garden to help the plants grow?

I don't have many answers to that question, but I do have links to a couple of websites worth looking over. If they make you uncomfortable or angry (and they may), then I recommend you look at them even closer. We are often made most uncomfortable by truths that we would rather ignore. The "rogues gallery" posted on these sites may at least provide the names of authors who you may wish to take with a grain or two (or a shaker or two) of salt.

I'm not saying that the authors of these sites are "right" or "wrong". That is for each individual to judge for himself or herself. I honestly haven't decided for myself yet. But, they made me think real hard about my own belief system and that gives them value in and of itself.

The sites are published by Native American authors, apparently traditionalists, who are passionate about the subject and speak their minds in a very blunt and straight-forward manner. It's a good idea to keep your sense of humor handy as you surf through them.

http://www.geocities.com/mibby529/essay.html. (ignore the pop-ups if you can. The author is a reservation indian, doesn't have much money and must rely on free domain hosting to keep his site on the web).

http://members.tripod.com/TopCat4/crystal.htm. (the opening page is a parody. once you go inside you'll find the serious stuff).

Please, don't shoot the messenger.

Posted by: Celeste of the Stars1 03-Nov-2003, 01:43 PM
QUOTE (Shadows @ Nov 2 2003, 07:42 PM)
Books are wonderful sources of knowledge, but the learning of the craft is better served by a mentor. Books are so impersonal and can not tell you where you went off course. Just my opinion.

I do agree with you...well mostly. I agree that having a mentor is good, but the whole thing with my religion is that theres really no wrong way to do it.
To quote one of my books if I may:
"There's no one correct method of casting a circle; of invoking the Goddess and God; or ritually observing the seasons or performing Wiccan magic" Scott Cunningham Living Wicca: a Further Guide for the Solitary Practitioner

For me books are my mentor. My husband and I move about once a year (he's a contractor). So finding a coven let alone a mentor that follows the same line I do is very difficult. How ever I do try to find others that are involved with the craft everywhere I go and I do keep in touch with them. Most of them are also solitaries. We are each others mentors, if one has a question we all give our answer and that person uses the one that best fits them and what they're trying to do.
I am also luckier than most I had a family member in the craft way back when so I inherited her Book of Shadows and diary she kept.

I think thats enough babbling from me. Have a great day all! biggrin.gif

Posted by: Shadows 03-Nov-2003, 02:35 PM
QUOTE (Swanny @ Nov 2 2003, 08:50 PM)
Shadows, will you puh-leeez get out of my brain??? <LOL>. It looks like once again we're sharing the same thought process. We have GOT to get together at the same time and place some day. No telling what may happen but I'd bet it will be spectacular.


AS long as it is not in that toilet wirlpool of yours in your avatar LOL!!!!

Thanks for the links I have been there before...good info !

Posted by: myriad 25-Nov-2003, 05:05 PM
Ummmmm, Swanny, are you bringing up Native American Medicine my friend? If so, we need to chat.

Posted by: Annabelle 25-Nov-2003, 10:08 PM
Wiccans: Evil or not?

I really think alot of people make harsh statements about things they don't understand and are afraid... they make judgements about things they haven't educated themselves on and that ignorance and fear make them predjudice.

Annabelle

Posted by: Angel Whitefang (Rider) 26-Nov-2003, 02:37 AM
hello all, I thought I would add my own to this.

Each of us have our own energy in that not everything that works for one Wiccan/Pagan/Witch/Healer will work for another. We are all part of the all, I was not taught as a child in this current life to rever Mother Gaia or Mother nature what ever you call her. I was taught that there was only God. I have found several truths in my religious searchings. Not every one is incorrect. The Question are Wiccans good or evil... It would depend on the person claiming to be good or evil.
I know many Christians that have the coldest and ruthless hearts I have ever seen, but I also know many other christians that are kind & giving with hearts that the size of the galaxy could not contain. I have seen the same in Buddhists, Wiccans, Pagans, Shammans, Catholics...etc...the list goes on. The person themself is either good or bad. not necessarily the "Religion" or their belief system. I believe that what a person puts into their beliefs they will return.
Basically, I will respect your views and I ask you to do the same for me. We will not always agree on everything, we each see the same situation differently.
I saw this in a bok, I wish I could find it again but the person said " We are not all Incorrect but, then we are not all correct."
Think on that. I still find truths in that statement.

With Love and Light,
angel.gif

Posted by: Celeste of the Stars1 26-Nov-2003, 07:57 AM
I understand why most people think of us as evil. If you look at witches in books, or movies, or even Halloween decorations for that matter we are depicted as green faced creatures that want to either get back our ruby slippers or feed someone a posion apple. The only good witch I've ever heard of in a movie is Glinda, but if you noticed she didn't get nearly as much screen time as the Wicked Witch of the West!
If more people outside of Wiccan knew our creed they might think differently.

Posted by: Aaediwen 26-Nov-2003, 02:49 PM
A couple I should look up the names of from the very movies that got me curious in the whole bit. Just a minute...

Lirio and Sarah from <I>The Craft</I>, and the Owens sisters in <I>Practical Magic</I> are some good screen witches. The made point still stands though. Most of the time witches are portrayed in movies and books as green faced, Satanic hags. Such a sad image. This is what eventually sparked my curiosity about what the truth was.

Posted by: Therasa 27-Nov-2003, 06:05 AM
Naked Dreamer:


I don't believe that all wiccan or witches are eveil or bad. I think it's just the label that 'you' have been given. I also believe that people fear what they do not understand. It's sad really. Alot of that has happened through the ages, some of which has been pointed out here on this message board.

Anyway, don't worry. If you are kind, you are treated with kindness. If you are fair, you are treated with fairness. If you are loving, you are loved.

Take care.

Posted by: RavenWing 28-Nov-2003, 11:15 AM
QUOTE (Aaediwen @ Nov 26 2003, 08:49 PM)
A couple I should look up the names of from the very movies that got me curious in the whole bit. Just a minute...

Lirio and Sarah from <I>The Craft</I>, and the Owens sisters in <I>Practical Magic</I> are some good screen witches. The made point still stands though. Most of the time witches are portrayed in movies and books as green faced, Satanic hags. Such a sad image. This is what eventually sparked my curiosity about what the truth was.

Unfortunately, those help perpetuate some more stereotypes.

Posted by: Shadows 28-Nov-2003, 05:44 PM
Amen!!! RavenWing!!! Blessed be!!!!

Posted by: Aaediwen 28-Nov-2003, 07:09 PM
Unfortunately so, But at least they are not portrayed as evil.

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