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Celtic Radio Community > Kirk and Chapel > The Reason Christians Believe In God

Posted by: dragonboy3611 06-Jan-2005, 04:58 PM

Why believe in God? It seems strange to trust in a God who cannot be seen or touched, and it seems that no scientific or philosophical study can prove or disprove God's existence.

user posted image

The story of Israel
Christian faith has its roots in Jewish faith. The Jews came to believe in the existence of the "one true God" through revelation: a cumulative process of historical events, interpreted retrospectively. Events led to insights and insights led to an understanding of their creation and preservation as the acts of a benevolent and caring God.

This is the God the Jews came to know: God's revelation to Moses in Exodus 3 gives his name in a way that cannot be manipulated by humankind: (Exodus 3:"I am who I am", "I will be who I will be", or perhaps "watch what I do!". This name is also a testimony to God's unchanging faithfulness, in which whomsoever responds to it in faith and trust will see this faithfulness again and again confirmed in the deeds of God.. The Old Testament tells the story of God's constant faithfulness to his people, despite their continual falling away and lack of faith in him.

Human life is about living in relationships. Religion is the relationship with the absolute. There seems to be an innate restlessness, an unfulfilled need to reach out for another dimension in our lives. Christians believe that humankind was created for a relationship with God, and that this thirst for the absolute corresponds to a reality, an ultimate meaning to existence.

The story of Jesus
The encounter between God and humanity is always initiated by God. God makes himself present in our reality and opens our eyes and ears through Word and Sacrament. The "Word" is the communicative nature of revelation - through words, events, visions and supremely, Jesus Christ.

Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the central revelation of the creator, and the key to understanding the world. The world chooses to misunderstand or reject this revelation. Christian understanding of God is based on the conviction that in his coming as a fully human being, the integrity of his way of living, his humiliation and exaltation, Jesus of Nazareth reveals the very heart of God. This event must therefore be the crux of our thinking about revelation in general.

We always talk about God in terms derived from the reality of this world. God in turn expresses himself in, with and through earthly realities. God is thus always more than the terms with which we express him. For example, God is sometimes called "Father", but in stories told by Jesus, God constantly acts surprising differently from his earthly counterparts. This does not mean that God is not really "a father", but that we are estranged from fatherhood's essential meaning.

But God is so hidden
If God is a caring, faithful Father, who reveals himself to humanity, why is he also so hidden? It is paradoxical that God is present, although he seems not to be. It is also true that the more we come to know him, the less we are able to grasp him with our reason.

Belief in God is a choice. Belief, faith in God, is an active trust that God is for us, despite all evidence against it. This world is full of pain, suffering, at times an overwhelming sense that life is meaningless. We ask in despair what it is all about, why are we here? Faith in God is a stand against this world's reality, a belief that this world has a purpose, that it is grounded on, supported by and leads to an ultimate reality. This ultimate reality is God himself.

It is equally valid to choose unbelief. To refuse the choice is also unbelief. The existence of God cannot be proved through reason. Atheism and nihilism are real choices. Christians choose to affirm fundamental trust in a deeper reality, a purpose and meaning to all life, but this trust cannot be based on absolute certainty, reason and appearances. Christian belief in the existence of God is essentially based on trust in the underlying goodness of life, despite all the evidence of the contrary. It is equally based on hope and love, essentially because this is the example supremely lived by Jesus Christ. We believe and trust in God because he believed and trusted, even to the bitterest end.

Background reading:
Hendrikus Berkhof, Christian Faith
Gerhard Ebeling, The Nature of Faith
Hans Kung, Does God Exist?

[COLOR=Blue]I found this on a Christian Website for help, http://vic.uca.org.au/doclit/godexist.html

Posted by: Haldur 06-Jan-2005, 05:20 PM

I find it interesting that none of these sources actually referenced any Biblical scripture.

It would seem that if such an article were posted, The Bible would be a more than qualified reference point. It seems to me this article is more of a person's "opinion", rather than an actual piece on belief, God, Christianity.

Posted by: Haldur 06-Jan-2005, 05:29 PM

Even though there was one reference (Exodus) that does not constitute the rest of the article.

Posted by: Haldur 06-Jan-2005, 05:32 PM

Keep in mind that I don't say these things to "offend" anyone...just speaking as a Christian, not a denominational Christian but a Christian from the Church of Christ.

Posted by: Haldur 06-Jan-2005, 08:00 PM

I do agree with some things about this article...I think it's a good thing you posted it actually, dragonboy! I have questions many of the same things...

I think that everyone needs something to believe in and I feel that if believing in something is good for anyone. It gives us purpose and helps keep us from losing our minds, in some case.

I've read many takes on philosophy, religion, and ethics and it's all very confusing when one speaks about their thoughts to someone else...not that I'm saying anything against the article and I apologize if I came across rude or offensive. The fact of the matter is that such topics are rather "hot to the touch" and I don't like to offend anyone with my view on things, but rather educate or help someone out.

I wholeheartedly apologize if what I've posted has been offensive to anyone. Thank you!

Posted by: dragonboy3611 07-Jan-2005, 01:27 PM

I do not think you posted offense! I thought this was interesting so I posted it. Because I am so young, I have had a very, very difficult time in trying to believe in god. In something that is not there. So this article helped just alittle.

Posted by: Haldur 07-Jan-2005, 07:49 PM

I've had similar struggles, dragonboy, and I probably always will. There's so much pain, hurt, and torment in this world...how could God be loving anyone? And if this article helped you, that's a very good thing!

I'll also reference some Biblical scripture sometime if you'd like. It's good to keep in touch on these sort of things!

God bless you!

Posted by: dragonboy3611 08-Jan-2005, 08:10 PM

The references would be nice! Thank you for your understanding!

Posted by: Haldur 12-Jan-2005, 08:47 PM

Basically mankind needs God in order to live life to its fullest, appreciate every day he is given. When you look all around in nature, you see signs of God's work. The scientific community would have you believe to look at nature as evidence to "natural selection" and "The Big Bang theory" which are solely based on impirical evidence, or, that which can be seen, heard, felt, etc. The scientific community has for years attempted to discount religious fact for impirical theory so that their systems can be accepted, thus leading to mankind being in control rather than God being in control. In a nutshell, mankind wants to always, and I stress ALWAYS be right in every circumstance. In the end, this will lead to damnation, or, an eternity without God.

Matthew 7:21-23 reads: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are the words of Jesus. All through the Bible, there are many verses that deal with this, but there are also verses of hope and inspiration as well. When you think about it, man has always been self-centered, egotistical, and worldly. We desire those things which only we can touch, see, taste, and we never appreciate what lies underneath. We never appreciate the fact that we have a soul and that we also have a Father and a Savior in the form of God and the Son, Jesus.

John 1:1-3 reads: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Therefore, God the Father and Jesus, God the Son, are the same entity. Along with the Holy Spirit (sometimes referred to as the Holy Ghost, but more rightfully is represented as 'spirit') they form the trinity, or godhead.

Jesus was a very knowledgable being, even as a young boy. Not much is known of his early life except for the account in Luke 2:40-52 where Jesus was found talking with doctors in the temple about, answering their questions and showing much understanding. This account is one of the many verses that prove Jesus' deity. The Bible is where all the answers are to the way of God, proof of his love for mankind, and solid evidence that we have hope if we believe.

Posted by: Siobhan Blues 15-Jan-2005, 12:07 PM

QUOTE (dragonboy3611 @ 06-Jan-2005, 05:58 PM)

But God is so hidden
If God is a caring, faithful Father, who reveals himself to humanity, why is he also so hidden? It is paradoxical that God is present, although he seems not to be. It is also true that the more we come to know him, the less we are able to grasp him with our reason....

It is equally valid to choose unbelief. To refuse the choice is also unbelief. The existence of God cannot be proved through reason. Atheism and nihilism are real choices. Christians choose to affirm fundamental trust in a deeper reality, a purpose and meaning to all life, but this trust cannot be based on absolute certainty, reason and appearances...

Wow... what a well-thought out presentation!
I've spent about 5 years now exploring questions like yours, reading about the different major religions and philosophies. I went into it wanting to find the truth, even if that truth was that there was no God. I'd rather face emptiness than live my life believing a falsehood.

What I discovered is for another topic. I won't intrude on yours with those discoveries. But I beg you to reconsider two statements:
'... the more we come to know him, the less we are able to grasp him with our reason'
The more I've sought God, the more I've watched my doubt & fear & worry dissapate as His attention & love becomes more apparent! The more I've sought God's guidance, the more clearly I see how He guides: thru the scriptures, thru the advice of Christian friends and pastors, and sometimes thru signs...
The big step is trust; its the hardest because it means you acknowledge there are some things you can't comprehend or quite understand - but if you choose to trust God, to trust in this Christ, I'm living proof that you will be embraced & led & counseled & loved & never alone again. God won't deal with you the same way He did with me, because you have unique needs & desires & potential... He will have something special in mind for you. I promise, if you do what Jesus said (knock on the door, seek) you will find - but it may not be what you expect! Keep your eyes open - God's really creative in this area.

'this trust cannot be based on absolute certainty, reason and appearances...'
Yes it can, to put it simply! I am certain that God is real, because He has answered my prayers in such ways that chance could have never contrived. He has spoken to me in my heart of hearts... I've heard that Still Small Voice... Its audible, its real, and I've heard it... and the proof to me is, when I've followed that advice I've found peace and purpose I didn't dream possible. The same can be true for you.
My trust in God is based on reason AND appearances, in that reasoning always brings me back to someone as being responsible for the amazing, complicated world around us. Its far too complex, far too intertwined to have just happened.

How I wish for you to experience this for yourself! How I wish....

Siobhan Blues

Posted by: Tassiecelt 16-Jan-2005, 07:54 AM

A couple of reasons (with references) for me are found in well-known truths such as:

1. God loves mankind, and took the only course of action that could save man from total self-destruction while satisfying both universal justice and love by sending His Son, Jesus Christ to demonstrate the ultimate love and sacrifice for our wrongdoings.

QUOTE

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2. Only through Jesus is that burden of sin and the resulting freedom of body, soul and spirit possible, knowing that we are accepted by God because of what Jesus has done for us.

QUOTE

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

3. That Jesus is not just a figure of the past, but of the future also, He lives and will return as promised.

QUOTE

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

4. Reincarnation is a lie, I once believed it. The truth is in Jesus alone and soon we will see Him, this great hope brings joy, peace and complete satisfaction of all the questions we can ask in life.

QUOTE

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

These are some of my reasons to believe.

Posted by: Siobhan Blues 18-Jan-2005, 04:11 PM

QUOTE (Haldur @ 12-Jan-2005, 09:47 PM)

And that's the ultimate rebellion against God, isn't it, to say mankind is in control and that there is no God...
So often it seems to me that theories scientists or philosophers put forth are all trying to say not only that there no God but we don't need a God either. They speculate and theorize and guess, and present it all as fact to a world that does not want to be told its accountable to any Higher Being for its actions or choices... the world holds onto these theories like they're the gospel and shakes a fist at those of us who acknowledge a Higher Creater & condemn us as weak & foolish. What they don't understand is the liberation within the guidelines that God has given us. There is safety there, purpose there, security and a sense of worth that is bestowed by God himself...

Our contemporary world actually doesn't WANT there to be a God, because it doesn't want to be told its doing anything wrong! How else can we account for the popular idea that we create our own reality, and any reality we choose is just fine...

What a world, what a world...
(to quote the Wicked Witch of the West)

Siobhan Blues

Posted by: dragonboy3611 20-Jan-2005, 07:30 PM

Wow, thank you everyone for your information. This really helps me and to keeping with believing in my faith, thank thank thank!

Posted by: Haldur 22-Jan-2005, 05:55 AM

You said it all Siobhan Blues!

Posted by: Siobhan Blues 24-Jan-2005, 09:49 AM

I have a dear friend, a young man who is half-Jewish by heritage but an agnostic by choice. We have had some serious discussions about faith, about Jesus being the Messiah... it saddens me so that my young friend says he believes Jesus was a great teacher but that he simply can't believe that he was the Messiah because the concept of our belief in Jesus being all that's necessary for salvation is 'too good to be true.'
As the years have passed, this young man is becoming more cynical & bitter about life and its purpose. He has no real hope for a future and thinks that life happens to us, rather than being a path along which God will guide us if we seek Him. For his birthday a year ago I sent him the powerful book "The Case for Christ" by former atheist Lee Strobel knowing that I might be severing a friendship if he was offended by my book selection! But I simply had to do it; Strobel presents such strong evidence and some of it comes from interviews with people that I thought my friend might be touched by. But to date, my friend has only said he knows I'm sincere but that he totally disagrees with me about the deity of Christ. Maybe he'll read that book and something in it will reach him...

Pray for this fellow today, will you? I remember him often and ask God to not give up on him...

Siobhan Blues

Posted by: Sonee 20-Jun-2005, 11:49 AM

I don?t know if this is the right place to post this but it does go along, somewhat, to dragonboy?s original post. If anyone feels this isn?t the right place let me know and I will move it to wherever you all think best.

With that said let me preface my remarks/questions with a bit of my religious background. I grew up in a very Christian family. I attended church regularly, I have been baptized, I was involved in the youth programs of my church, participated in many bible and church related activities i.e. Bible Bowl, church camps etc. I guess what I?m trying to say is that I am quite familiar with the bible and Christianity in general so this post is not one of ignorance of the subject matter or a need for ?Bible teaching?. I would just like other points of view and answers to questions that have been mulling around in my head for quite some time. Here goes.

Many, if not most, of the posts that I have been reading here in Kirk and Chapel, have referenced the bible which appears to be the basis for the Christian faith/religion. My first question would be: The Bible was written by human men. Men who claimed to have been spoken to by God and told to write this. Or men who followed and believed in Jesus and his teachings and so wrote them down. It was not written by God himself, or by Jesus? own hand. Why is it that these men are unequivocally to be believed just because they claim that ?God? spoke to them? Or that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John can say that Jesus was not just a prophet but also the ?Son of God? because a prophet from the OT said it would happen and Jesus himself claimed to be? If someone, and it does happen, today claimed to have spoken to someone ?otherworldly? they would be labeled a crackpot and laughed at and ridiculed. But if it was said thousands of years ago and was claimed to have come from God then it can be nothing but the truth. I?m pretty sure that this is where many Christians would say that the bible says do not follow a false prophet, you are to have only one God so on and so forth. Quite convenient, isn?t it? It?s sort of like a disclaimer ?We say there are many false prophets, Gods, etc and that you aren?t to believe in them or worship them but that doesn?t include ours. Ours, of course, are the ?true? prophets, Gods, etc and should be believed without question.? Isn?t that what many other ?religions? say? What makes Christianity the one true religion? Because of a book, (written by a bunch of men who claim to have spoken to an entity that nobody can see, touch or speak to themselves, or even prove without a doubt exists) says it?s so? You believe that Jesus is the Son of God because the bible says so. You believe he was crucified, rose again and went to sit at the right hand of God and to prepare a place for us because the bible says so. Historical records may show that a man (or three in this case) was crucified on the day in question (I don?t know that to be fact) but I don?t think they can determine exactly who it was that was crucified. And we have no documentation that he actually rose again save for the tales of the people he showed himself to, those who already believed in him in the first place. There is a saying that goes ?Don?t believe everything you see/hear/read.? But according to Christians, that doesn?t pertain to the Bible, only to anything that doesn?t agree with it. Sorry to blether on so much, and there is more where that came from but I thought I would just start with this for now!! I would welcome any comments, questions, or explanations that any of you would care to post. (I?m really flailing spiritually here!) If I haven't expressed myself clearly here or you don't understand my thought process (which happens often!) let me know and I will try to clarify it for you.

Posted by: RivDan 11-Aug-2005, 11:41 AM

Hey Dragon Boy! I love your speech. I also love that beautiful ethereal picture of the glowing cross on the crystal waters.

Posted by: Nova Scotian 29-Aug-2005, 08:17 PM

The reason I believe in God? Well I had an accident 4 years aga abd as a Firefighter/Paramedic, I can tell you I shouldn't have survived. I basically walked away. I could only be God!

Posted by: Nova Scotian 04-Oct-2005, 08:49 PM

I wouldn't be alive, I mean really alive, today if it wasn't for God. I was in a bad accident 4 years ago and God really saved me. i literly walked away and I can say that as a Firefighter/Paramedic, no one should have survived the wreck.

Posted by: reddrake79 15-Oct-2005, 10:43 PM

In response to Sonee, I hope this helps some-or at least gives you anothers opinion.

Bible from God- actually the Bible does claim to be written by God 2 timothy 3:16 the NIV uses the phrase "...God breathed..." correct me if Im wrong but The Bible is the only book that claims to be written by deity, God, not just the prophet of a deity. Also how do we find the truth in judicial proceedings? Get as many people who saw the incident to tell about it. That is what the human authors of the bible do.

Since it makes this claim, what supports it? Well, how about fulfilled prophecy-there is another thread about prophecy so I wont use the space here to go into great details. Authors and Prophets that performed miraculous signs, that could not be mearly some slight of hand tricks. Did you know that the Bible reveals scientific truths hundreds of years before they were proven. ie, round earth, ocean currents, water cycle, movement of stars, etc.

How do you know that George washington was the first president of the United States? How do you know that Magellan circumnavigated the earth? How do you know that Tutankhamen (sp?) was a pharoh in Egypt? How do you know that an earthquake happened in Afghanistan? There is actually more documented evidence that the Bible is historically acurate (when it talks about people, including Jesus, places and events) than any other ancient manuscript that is accepted to be true, such as roman and greek historians or egyptian writings. The authors of the New testament tell people to ask the witnesses of the resurection who were still alive at the time of the writings, originally over 500 people at the time of the resurection. Why do that and run the risk of one of these people telling it wrong or getting fed up with a lie if it wasn't true. If the disciples knew that Jesus had not risen, why did they accept death when given the choice to recant what they believe or die. 10 out of 11 disciples were killed for spreading the word of God. (someone tried to kill John and failed then he was exiled to patmos) At least 2 of the elleven claimed to have seen Jesus' tomb. All of them claimed to have seen Jesus alive after he was crucified. Why would they choose death if they knew they were just spreading a lie. All the opponents of christianity had to do was produce the body of Jesus and say here he is dead as a doornail. Or say, We didn't crucify any Jesus, Yet no where in history do we find that happening. As a matter of fact they set a guard around the tomb and sealed it with a huge rock. This guard (more than 2 armed soldiers) was militarily trained and knew how many followers of Jesus there were. There was no way that the disciples would have been able to surprise them and take the body. Just because you or you friends didn't actually witness an event doesn't meen that it didn't happen. if the Bible is historically acurate than why would it not be acurate in other places? ie. how to get to heaven, how to be a good person, how to treat your wife (if you are a guy), how to handle money, etc.

With all the different human authors, over 50 authors writing over a time frame of over a thousand years, the Bible never disagrees with itself. You would be hardpressed to find 50 people agree on pizza toppings

, much less spiritual matters. Most of these authors never even met each other. It is obvious that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John did not get together and say, "ok lets get our stories straight." They wrote what they saw and all 4 of the gospels agree.

I teach a Bible class and we have actually been going over this very topic. This is what I could remember without my books with me. I hope this helps. I would be happy to share more if any one would like.

Posted by: Sonee 06-Nov-2005, 06:36 PM

I appreciate the response! However, I'm still not entirely convinced. Jim Jones managed to convince a large number of people to not only kill themselves but to also feed their own children poisoned kool-aid in order to kill them. How hard would it have been to convince people in that time to lie in order to "recieve heaven", or even to have them believe that it was right to say that. I think some people are, for lack of a better word, gullible. Besides, aren't some of the books written, not by the people who actually saw the event, but by someone they only told the event to? 2nd hand information isn't always accurate.
Also, I saw a documentary this afternoon that said the book of Esther wasn't even one of the dead sea scrolls that the bible allegedly derived from. If that is the case, where did it come from then? It, evidentally, doesn't mention God once in any of its verses and that is a point of contention with many scholars. They feel it was added later, perhaps from some other document from the era that really isn't related at all to the bible.
How do we know that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John actually wrote those? I could write something as of I was someone important from this era, say Princess Diana, bury it for a few thousand years and the people who found it would have no way of knowing if she actually wrote it or not. If everything buried around it was from the same era, possibly even things from her family/associates, and if I included data that was verifiable by written accounts of the time, or other witness accounts they would no doubt assert that it was legitimate and reliable. Who would be around to say that it wasn't? Isn't it feasable that the same thing happened with the bible? What about "alien abduction"? There are numerous amounts of "eye witnesses" who have been abducted and reported the same events and description of the aliens from many miles away. They have/had never been in contact with one another either, does that mean that it's real and we should all believe in aliens?
(not trying to be sarcastic here, I seriously want to know)

Posted by: MacEoghainn 24-Nov-2005, 06:17 AM

Hebrews 11:1 (King James Version) 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Sonee,

I wish there was some irrefutable evidence of God that I could provide you with, but if you don't see his hand in all the beautiful things in creation there isn't much I can provide you with other than what is written here.

John 20:24-29 (New International Version)

Jesus Appears to Thomas

24 Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came.
25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"
27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

It would be easy to believe, if like Thomas, Jesus personally appeared to each one of us and we could "...see the nail marks in his hands and put my{our} fingers where the nails were, and put my{our} hand into his side....". But that is not likely to happen. All we can do is (as Peter wrote):1 Peter 3:15 (New International Version)
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.

Romans 8:24-25 (New International Version)
24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?
25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

Also see all of Hebrews 11 concerning Faith

Posted by: Shadows 24-Nov-2005, 06:35 AM

Quoting sources from a source that is being contested does not make it anymore believable.

Posted by: Shadows 24-Nov-2005, 06:56 AM

I would like to remind you that the "bible" was assembled some 1000 years after the life it honors . I am not refering to the Yiddish books as such, just what the modern christian religion calls the "bible".

It was around 1080 or latter, I have to go back and look, that a bunch of clerics got together and decided what would be doctrine and what to leave out.

As for the Yiddish parts, they are particular to those that believe in that religion... "Yahweh's choosen people"... Baptists, Unitarians, Presbitirians, Catholics, etc. where not even there...

Posted by: Tassiecelt 24-Nov-2005, 03:02 PM

Those that have come to the Scriptures with an open heart and thirst for truth have found that the Bible is miraculous in it's construction. In the same way a watermark reveals the authenticity of a banknote, the Hand of God is revealed in every verse of the Bible.
This "watermark" is shown as one studies the mathematic, the prophecy, the history and the science that is woven into the very fabric of the collection of books we call the Bible.
Even in English, little of consequence is lost.

Shadows, you once rebuked me for coming into one of the witchcraft forums and speaking of faith in Jesus.

You are obviously no more interested in surrendering yourself to the loving God of the Bible than I am bowing to the dark forces of witchcraft.

So why are you here? Is it just to debate? Endless debate about the Bible without real interest and need for what the Lord Jesus is able of provide those who call on Him, in my expererience, rarely achieves anything.

Now, convincing someone of the above is, IMHO, beyond the scope of this forum, or any other.
If you really want to know God and discover the Bible truths, nothing can better simply sitting down and studying with a Christian minister who really knows his Bible (not all do).

Posted by: gaberlunzie 24-Nov-2005, 04:22 PM

QUOTE (Tassiecelt @ 24-Nov-2005, 04:02 PM)

Shadows, you once rebuked me for coming into one of the witchcraft forums and speaking of faith in Jesus.

You are obviously no more interested in surrendering yourself to the loving God of the Bible than I am bowing to the dark forces of witchcraft.

Tassiecelt; Shadows can speak for himself very well and I'm sure he will do but...
it was not HIM who asked you why you were posting about your faith in "The Grove". It was another member whose name I can't remember right now. I needed to have a further look.
In contrary, Shadows was the one who replied to this member's answer to your post by saying that "The Grove" was open to ALL who feel like contributing there.

And "The Grove" isn't a forum about "the dark forces of witchcraft" only; if you have a look around you'd notice that it is a place for many other ways of believing.
I don't want to step into discussion here because our opinions will differ. It would lead us off topic soon enough.

I truely respect your strong and heartfelt belief in Jesus and I see the point why you can't respect other beliefs then...may walk in peace!

Posted by: Tassiecelt 24-Nov-2005, 07:42 PM

OK if it wasn't shadows, then I stand corrected and apologise to him. Mind you, I was out of order in the Grove probably, so I wasn't complaining about the rebuke - whoever gave it.

Correct me again if I am wrong, but I understand Kirk and Chapel to be a place for Christians to share with once another. From what I have seen, they do that very well and harmoniously.

QUOTE

And "The Grove" isn't a forum about "the dark forces of witchcraft" only; if you have a look around you'd notice that it is a place for many other ways of believing.

I was comparing faith in Christ to that which is totally opposite, not referring to the Grove in particular. Although, Jesus did say that those who were not for Him, were against Him. Those who are not working for Christ, work against Him (His words, not mine). Matt 12:30

Also, to quote Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name (Jesus Christ) under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Or Good News version: "Salvation is to be found through him alone; in all the world there is no one else whom God has given who can save us."

Any way of believing that is not founded on Christ is vain, all roads do not lead to Rome, all paths do not lead to God. As anyone who has hiked in the mountains will tell you, there are some paths that simply go the wrong way no matter how sure we might be in them, and some may even lead the the edge of a cliff.

I know that sounds dogmatic, I once rejected that notion myself but in the end had to admit...it's true, and what a wonderful truth that focusses the whole being on that which is above all.

In conclusion, my personal view is:
If you don't want to hear the gospel, don't go into a Kirk or Chapel.
I'm not interested in the occult (or whatever one wishes to call it), so I won't go into the Grove.

Posted by: Shadows 25-Nov-2005, 09:17 AM

One last post here for now...

appology accepted...

I am a heathen on the side of the rebel Jesus!

Posted by: reddrake79 26-Nov-2005, 11:48 AM

In my limited experience I have found Christian forums or chat rooms to attract three kinds of people: The believer, the seeker, and the trouble maker. While the trouble maker is not welcome, I believe that we christians have a responsibility to the other two: Answer the questions of the seaker and encourage the believer.

To sonee (Who I think of as a seeker),

Whatever method you have of figuring out truth, apply it to the Bible. The bible will stand up to any scrutiny (sp?). Consequently if you don't think you can find truth, then why argue that the Bible is in contention. If you can't find truth then my truth is just as valid as yours and my truth says there is truth. The funny thing about truth, we don't need to believe it for it to exist. As for the jim Jones comparison, try finding anyone now who follows his teachings. Only 30 years later and you will be hard pressed to find anyone admitting to it, much less in public forums. We see people who follow the Bible everywhere, politics, sports, education, buisiness, every aspect of our society. I sincerely doubt if Jesus convinced people the same way as Jim Jones, that there would be a consistant string of followers for over a thousand years.

Just because a passage is not found in the dead sea scrolls does not mean that it doesn't belong in the Bible. The bible is not neccessarily derived from the dead sea scrolls, but they are probably a copy of the manuscript to begin with. We use sections of manuscripts to validate an entire document all the time. It is rare that an archeologists finds entire documents that are not missing pieces yet they still use these incomplete documents to validate others. Why expect the manuscripts found for the Bible to be any different? I personally have no problem with Esther not mentioning God. If you read the story it is evident that God's hand is in it even though it doesn't say the word "God". If you are waiting until Jesus Comes and stands in front of you or for a supernatural sign you will be waiting too long.

Luke 16:29-31
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
And he (the rich man) said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one (Lazarus) went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

I am willing to bet that if Jesus did show up in front of an unbeliever today, that person would try to explain how it was a trick or a hallucination from the mushrooms he ate at dinner

Posted by: reddrake79 26-Nov-2005, 12:01 PM

two last thing,s second hand information is reliable when it agrees with the eye witness accounts. In his letters, Paul tells people to ask the living eye witnesses of which there was over 500 at the time. even though he was not an eye witness, he talked to those who were. Does that make his account less reliable, maybe if we didn't have the eye witness accounts too.

even if you doubt who the human author was, the events written about are still accurate - as verified by other sources (not buried with biblical manuscripts) and archeological digging. If the events written about are true, why assume the authors are fake - unless you are looking for reasons to disbelieve the Bible instead of looking for answers to your questions.

we can specualte about any "what if" question. "What if the bible is a hoax perpetrated to keep the catholic church in power for hundreds of years?"

"What if the Bible were written by aliens?"

"What if I am right and you are wrong?"

"What if's" are fun for discussions but they shouldn't be used to disprove an argument. No matter what I say you can always come up with a "what if" that would appear to disprove what I just said.

Posted by: Siobhan Blues 26-Nov-2005, 01:15 PM

QUOTE (Sonee @ 06-Nov-2005, 07:36 PM)

Also, I saw a documentary this afternoon that said the book of Esther wasn't even one of the dead sea scrolls that the bible allegedly derived from. If that is the case, where did it come from then? It, evidentally, doesn't mention God once in any of its verses and that is a point of contention with many scholars. They feel it was added later, perhaps from some other document from the era that really isn't related at all to the bible.

I have studied Esther in depth, and you're right: it does not mention God the way He is mentioned in a lot of other books in the Bible. Esther is nonetheless one of the most effective books in showing how God is actively involved in our lives; Esther had the sense to recognize opportunities God sent her way even tho sometimes she couldn't see how far-reaching her actions would be. Thank goodness ole Uncle was there saying 'do it, girl'! Because Esther has courage and a desire to follow God's will for her life, she ended up being in the position to literally save the lives of every Jew in her country.

Posted by: Siobhan Blues 26-Nov-2005, 01:25 PM

QUOTE (Sonee @ 06-Nov-2005, 07:36 PM)

How do we know that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John actually wrote those? I could write something as of I was someone important from this era, say Princess Diana, bury it for a few thousand years and the people who found it would have no way of knowing if she actually wrote it or not.

Those boys were eye-witnesses, and my attorney daddy always said there's nothing better than an eye-witness account! Don't miss 1st and 2nd Peter, a follower of Christ from very early on... and also James and Jude, books written by Jesus' half-brothers! The book of James is underlined more than any in my Bible - its one of my favorite books of them all.

The books written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, James and Jude were written by men who actually in the presence of Jesus during His time on earth; as such, they were kept safe and shared thru copies and are as reliable as an account written by Prince William would be after both he and his mom are long gone. What to me proves their authenticity is how they reiterate and restate the same basis Christian teachings and truths. This is the test of all the books of the Bible, really, that they confirm and present the same message: God loves us.

SB

Posted by: Raven 12-Dec-2005, 10:58 AM

QUOTE (Shadows @ 24-Nov-2005, 07:56 AM)

I know that you wrote the Bible was "assembled" 1000 years after the life it honors. This makes it sound like the information contained is somehow unreliable.

Just to Clarify that all the letters and books that comprise it were written with in 70 years of the death of Jesus, (most much sooner)the writers of the First Four Books (Gospels) all eye witnesses to his life death and resurrection. (or at least after resurrection as no one actually saw the event itself

) The fact that they were assembled as a collection at a later date has no bearing on their reliability.

This short time frame means there was ample opportunity to dispute the writings there in by contemporaries who were also alive at the time, which by all accounts there were disputes (see books written by Paul who was one of the main skeptics)

As far as all the other people not mentioned in those Yiddish documents that you referred to (Baptists and company), those documents all point to the coming Messiah who is full filled in the collection of assembled letters and books written in the first century, which allows for the non-Jewish people being grafted into the original vine and these writings being applicable to them as well.

One more point on the aforementioned works of antiquity. The Books commonly referred to as the New and Old Testament are the undisputed 2 most reliable works of antiquity as affirmed by scholars of all persuasions (Christian or not Christian) With the New Testament works coming in first for a variety of reasons.

I have more if anyone is interested and documentation if needed (i.e. reasons scholars agree on the undisputed accuracy of these works)

Peace

Mikel

Posted by: Raven 12-Dec-2005, 11:15 AM

QUOTE (dragonboy3611 @ 20-Jan-2005, 08:30 PM)

Wow, thank you everyone for your information. This really helps me and to keeping with believing in my faith, thank thank thank!

Hey Dragon Boy,

Good thread questions an points.

Just a thought for consideration,

You can not see feel or touch the air you breath and yet you believe it exists because you can see it's effects.

The same with light, you can only see the reflection or effect of light.

We can not see, feel or touch God, but we can see, feel, and touch his handi work, In addition we can see his effects.

Peace

Mikel

Posted by: Siobhan Blues 04-Jan-2006, 08:31 PM

There was a Jewish historian named Josephus who wrote an incredibly detailed account of Jewish history, and HE even mentions Jesus... John the Baptist too, which I thought was interesting. Here is a guy with nothing to gain by mentioning Jesus who turned the traditional Jewish world on its collective ear with his teachings, and he mentions Him anyway! The book is in my church library, and I checked it out for awhile to see what the guy had to say. Fascinating!

Posted by: Raven 06-Jan-2006, 09:35 AM

I have read some of Joesephus's works also and I find this fascinating.

For me it is just as the Bible says,"Faith is the evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for.."

This ties in to what I posted earlier. My faith is based on the evidence and a lot of the evidence while tangible is not something that you can hold in your hand or carry arround in a box.

Mikel

Posted by: Siobhan Blues 10-Jan-2006, 11:59 AM

QUOTE (Raven @ 06-Jan-2006, 10:35 AM)

For me it is just as the Bible says,"Faith is the evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for.."

This ties in to what I posted earlier. My faith is based on the evidence and a lot of the evidence while tangible is not something that you can hold in your hand or carry arround in a box.

Mikel

Mmmmm, that triggered a dcTalk memory! Who else recalls their song 'Mind's Eye'??

"Faith is the evidence of things unseen
People tell me that You're just a dream
They don't know You the way that I do
You're the one I live to pursue..."

Ah, I miss that band! They were superb...

SB

Posted by: reddrake79 03-Feb-2006, 03:16 PM

I miss DC talk also.

! minor point, i am jumping in the middle and apologize if it has already been pointed out, But the Bible that we look at was not derived from the dead sea scrolls. These are 1 set of copies of the books that make up the bible. 1 of the most important books ever written, weather or not you believe it. it would make sense for copies to be running around and shared. These copies would eventuly get tattered and torn, maybe even book missing. My first bible that was given to me no longer contains the book of matthew, because it was so used.

Posted by: Raven 06-Feb-2006, 01:48 PM

QUOTE (Siobhan Blues @ 10-Jan-2006, 12:59 PM)

QUOTE (Raven @ 06-Jan-2006, 10:35 AM)

I am a DC talk fan from back in the day. In fact Arminta and I started doing music with DC talk accompany tapes believe it or not

Heaven Bound etc...

There is a sample from Billy Graham talking about Faith on the Jesus Freak CD that has always struck me.

"...I can not see the wind, but I can see the effects of the wind..."

Great stuff and very cutting edge especially for Christian pop culture.. I was really happy that they were able to achieve some cross over success, and their live show ranks in the top 5 best that I have ever seen regardless of genre.

Peace

Mikel

Posted by: Siobhan Blues 07-Feb-2006, 09:08 AM

Oooh, dcTalk was suPERB in person!!! Their concert in Atlanta on the Supernatural tour was the first live big concert we'd ever taken our daughter Lauren to, and talk about a perfect first-experience: we got tickets on the third row at the Fox, right in front of Kevin Max! Poor Lauren had stars in her eyes for weeks afterwards -

It was such fun to be that close to the front, and all three guys crossed the stage at different times so we got a good close look at them all. Their energy was a blessing to behold. I've never had so much fun shouting "ONE TWO THREE..." before or since - remember all the counting songs, like 'Colored People' and 'Day by Day'.

Oh, and I remember that big disco ball thing above the stage never came down! Our concert was like the first or second one of the tour and the guys laughed about it being a first-night kink to work out before the next show.

My legs ached for two days after that concert; I think we stood in our seats from the second song on. (Don't feel too bad for the folks behind us, they were on their seats too -

)

SB

Posted by: Sonee 23-Feb-2006, 08:11 PM

QUOTE (Raven @ 06-Jan-2006, 09:35 AM)

My faith is based on the evidence and a lot of the evidence while tangible is not something that you can hold in your hand or carry arround in a box.

Mikel

Thank you everyone for your replies. I greatly appreciate the chance to learn from others! Yes, I am what you called a "seeker", I suppose. As opposed to a believer or trouble maker!!

I understand what you all are saying about faith and belief in something that you can't touch/see/smell etc, but how do you know your faith is well placed? If you speak to anyone with religious beliefs, no matter what the religion, they will tell you their "way" is the "correct" way. That what they put their faith in is what everyone should put their faith in. (I'm not explaining this properly but I hope you all can understand what I'm trying to say!) I don't understand how you "feel" the Lord, or know that he is in your life. I can't say as I have ever felt this. Does that mean I'm just a bad person and God has abandoned me? Or am I not looking in the right place?

Even the religion that most people consider diametrically opposed to Christianity, Wicca, has many of the same beliefs that Christianity does. Do unto others, respect for others and self, don't harm, etc. They also believe in a higher power, which Christians call God. Many other religions have the same principles, what makes Christianity different, and how do I find faith in it? Obviously, I had faith when I was younger, I have, evidently, lost that faith over time. Is it possible to get it back, and why should I want to get it back?

I hope this makes some form of sense. If it doesn't let me know and I will attempt to clarify myself, if I can!! Thanks for listening guys!

Posted by: Dogshirt 23-Feb-2006, 08:56 PM

I find it interesting that christians ALWAYS feel that if another person is NOT, that they don't or CAN'T belive in God. I find this quite amusing.

Posted by: marti64 23-Feb-2006, 09:42 PM

Sonee: I found your questions interesting, because I , too have questioned the need for a "higher Power", God, or a Spiritual part of life. Many things have happened to me in my 4 decades of life to make me cynnical(SP?). I choose to trust in God, and know that he will guide me in my life's journey. THIS IS MY CHOICE!!!!

No one has foced their beliefs on me. I grew up in a Protestant church in small town Massachusetts. I went to a Catholic College in New Hampshire.

All I know is that things happen for a reason, and there is someone or something that guides us on a daily basis. It doesn't matter what you call it, call Him, Or Her for that matter. People will have different opinions!!!

I don't know if this makes any sense or not, but I had to wnter into this conversation, and I hope that my opinions do not offend.

Love for now!!!

Marti

Posted by: Siobhan Blues 07-Mar-2006, 07:39 AM

QUOTE (Dogshirt @ 23-Feb-2006, 09:56 PM)

I find it interesting that christians ALWAYS feel that if another person is NOT, that they don't or CAN'T belive in God. I find this quite amusing.

Well I'll tell you what I ALWAYS find amusing: when individuals make generalized statements like yours. It simply rings of defensiveness...
I am a Christian and that is NOT how I feel about anyone who says they are not a Christian.

Posted by: Sonee 01-Jun-2006, 07:17 PM

My apologies for being away so long. My schooling was quite a bit tougher this semester than last, and I fear it is only going to get worse from here!

Anyway, Marti, I don't question a need for a higher power, no matter what name you chose to call it. There is no question that there is a higher being out there, responsible for all that we are. I just can't seem to see the Bible as the "word" of this being. That we are supposed to live our lives by what is written in this book and no other. Did Jesus exist? According to this book he did, but there are books about dragons and unicorns too. Are we to believe that they existed as well? I just don't know. This is one thing I honestly can't wrap my mind around.

My entire family is very Bible oriented and, in that respect, very closed minded. They have no patience for my type of questions and think I'm being "rediculous", "stupid" or just trying to 'get a rise' out of them, if you get my meaning. This is not the case, of course, but they blind to anything else. That is why I have brought my queries here, hoping I wouldn't run into the same stone wall full of scorn and no answers.

Thanks to all who listen and respond honestly. without accusations or name calling.