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Posted by: Tassiecelt 26-Oct-2004, 11:12 PM
While not really a big "holiday" in Australia, I have found from another website that this appears to be a holy cow that is beyond criticism in the USA.

My view has always been that a Christian should best avoid this celebration since it's roots lie in paganism and it's associations with witchcraft. ( I mean real witchcraft as defined by the Bible and not the misconceptions and even atrocities committed by misguided churchmen in the 1300's and on).

The Creation Science Foundation are in agreement with me.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/halloween.html

How do you feel? Is it a bit like Xmas to you - some good, some bad? or do you avoid it altogether?

Please, I am soliciting the views of my Christian brethren here, I have no desire to argue with pagans in this place.

Posted by: Irish Stepper 26-Oct-2004, 11:51 PM
I allow my kids to go trick-or-treating on Halloween. They wear costumes of super-heros, race-car drivers, or M&M's. I do not allow anything of evil backrounds or your typical "ghosts 'n' goblins". Being Catholic, though, we follow up Halloween, with going to church on Nov 1st, which is All Saints Day.

Technically, most Christian holidays can be traced back to pagan roots. Christmas was scheduled to coincide closely with the Winter Solstice (sp?). There are so many Pagan holidays, anyway, that we'd be hard pressed to schedule Christain holidays on a day that isn't Pagan. wink.gif

Posted by: Tassiecelt 27-Oct-2004, 12:35 AM
Irish Stepper, I absolutely agree with your assessment of holidays, few, if any are sanctified by the Word of God, there are some that are more offensive to Christians than others tho.

Finding celebrations that are approved by God is a challenge. For ancient Israel it was laid out more clearly with all the feast days.

Under the new covenant, perhaps not so clearly.

Posted by: maryellen 27-Oct-2004, 07:54 AM
I think this dilemma comes up every year on this forum and others.
My friend who is a reverend at a church lets her daughter go trick-or-treating, however, she cannot dress up as something evil (like a witch, goblin, etc.)
I really don't like the holiday because each year teenagers and adults (who have the maturity of a teenager) destroy tombstones and toss 40-50 pumpkins in main street every year. Halloween seems to imply that it is the one day that it is okay to do these things, or that it is "cool".

I understand Christian holidays have some pagan roots, but the fact of the matter is what is being celebrated. Jesus is celebrated at Christmas and Easter.
At Halloween, darkness is celebrated. If every family just had fun with it, then I would not mind. But the small percent who ruin it for everyone else don't make it seem worth it.

Posted by: Tassiecelt 27-Oct-2004, 08:09 AM
maryellen, I didn't knwo this issue has been discussed on this forum (no surprise, what has NOT been discussed??)

I truly feel for my US brethren, for whom this issue is no doubt of greater importance in the sense of its' cultural and historical integration to your culture.

We have no such burden here, and so I look at it as a purely theological issue, which is possibly a little unfair for my American brethren.

I do know that our church (in America) does not support halloween, it was only since my growing involvement in things celtic that this celebration was made more known to me.

Posted by: susieq76 27-Oct-2004, 08:18 AM
I agree with Maryellen. Violence is becoming more prevalent, which makes it really disagreeable. Add drunk driving to that mix and it becomes very difficult to enjoy. I have always loved and participated in Halloween, and have let my daughter do so. I have the same costume requirements as described by the two lovely ladies above. This year she is dressing up as a "hip witch" - sort a 70's outfit. The only thing that makes it "witchy" is the hat (which witches don't even wear). I don't know. Seems like nothing can be done for fun anymore because of the rampant selfishness. I think that in all things, it is who we put at the center that gives it meaning (I am obviously not referring to integrating occultic practices or anything like that - just holidays). In everything that we do, Jesus Christ is to be the center and the focus. The reason for what we do. And I think that is why we are 'set apart' if you will. Anyway, I'm not sure I am making sense. Just wanted to put in my thoughts on the matter.

Posted by: Madadh 27-Oct-2004, 08:21 AM
Both halloween and All Souls Day in the Christian calendar, come from the Celtic celebrations in Ireland, Wales, Scotland, and the north of Europe. The Celtic new year starts on November 1st. The early Celts believed that the divide between the spirit world and our own was very week at the end of the year. They celebrated end of the year with great fires to ward of evil spirits.

They also believed that one could pass between these world easily and thus did not fear death as others did. But I digress. The Christian priest adopted All Souls day to help bring the Celts into the Christian faith.

Posted by: Tassiecelt 27-Oct-2004, 08:28 AM
As you lads and lasses continue to enlighten me with regards to the origins of halloween, I guess the answer to my question becomes more self evident, especially as I ask the question WWJD (what would Jesus do?)

Posted by: Avonlea22 27-Oct-2004, 08:35 AM
QUOTE (Tassiecelt @ 27-Oct-2004, 01:12 AM)
While not really a big "holiday" in Australia, I have found from another website that this appears to be a holy cow that is beyond criticism in the USA.

Just as an FYI, Halloween has become the second most celebrated "holiday" after Christmas. So, it is kinda big here in the U.S. The store aisles for Halloween are just about as big as those for Christmas, and it's not all candy. I think it's a marketing ploy.

so to interrupt the thread...just wanted to add some facts in here. smile.gif

Posted by: susieq76 27-Oct-2004, 08:37 AM
You know, honestly? Noone really knows what Jesus would do. That's the beauty of it. Sorry, but I just can't stand that saying smile.gif Hope I am not upsetting anyone, but my very humble opinion is that God is God and as such we cannot know His mind. He can share things with us, but when Jesus walked the earth, no one knew what He was going to do next. It was almost always a surprise. As we are still in the same state of sin and fallenness, I feel that we, too (with the exception of what is outlined in the Bible) do not know what Jesus would have done in this situation.

Like I said - no offense, hope I haven't caused any. That isn't my intention. That statement is just massively over-commercialized here in the U.S.

Posted by: Tassiecelt 27-Oct-2004, 08:44 AM
QUOTE (susieq76 @ 28-Oct-2004, 12:37 AM)
You know, honestly? Noone really knows what Jesus would do. That's the beauty of it. Sorry, but I just can't stand that saying smile.gif Hope I am not upsetting anyone, but my very humble opinion is that God is God and as such we cannot know His mind. He can share things with us, but when Jesus walked the earth, no one knew what He was going to do next. It was almost always a surprise. As we are still in the same state of sin and fallenness, I feel that we, too (with the exception of what is outlined in the Bible) do not know what Jesus would have done in this situation.

Like I said - no offense, hope I haven't caused any. That isn't my intention. That statement is just massively over-commercialized here in the U.S.

yes you've offended me and upset me..... laugh.gif "they that love the Lord...nothing shall offend them... somewhere is Psalms.

All we know of Jesus is revealed in His Word, so I guess the more we know His Word, the more we know "WWJD".

Posted by: susieq76 27-Oct-2004, 08:50 AM
ohmy.gif laugh.gif Very true, Tassie! You are lucky that many things have not been blemished over there as they have here.

Posted by: Ceciliastar1 27-Oct-2004, 10:26 AM
My family has always gone trick-or-treating on Halloween. We do it cause A. It's fun, and B. It is the night before the feast of all saints (which is a hole day of obligation). We don't dress up as anything demon like or anything like that, we dress up as fairies or our favorite movie character. I don't think that there is any problem in dressing up and walking around the town getting free candy. My family is very big into tradition and Halloween is a really nice tradition that we have. I don't think that there are any moral obligations to Christains to avoid the holiday, I believe that if you can celebrate the feast of all saints without worrying about it's pagan origins than I'd say go for it! I'm not a very stron christain though so....uh...yeah. That's what I think.

I think Jesus would not have a problem with it cause most people do not practice any pagan rituals when celebrating halloween (at least my family doesn't) it's all just candy, apples, pumpkins, movies, and costumes. There I have spoken for Jesus, haha! I could get into so much trouble for saying that!!! oops.gif

Posted by: maryellen 27-Oct-2004, 01:51 PM
I had never though of WWJD that way. You are right, we don't know the mind of God. All we know is what we can derive from the bible.
The saying is commercialized. THough perhaps, I do think the commercializing of Jesus in movies and books like "Passion" and the "Left Behind" series has brought more peopple to come closer to Christ. I know I personally started being more prayerful after reading the "Left Behind" books.

Posted by: urian 27-Oct-2004, 02:31 PM
Firstly, I would like to address lumping witches in with "evil" things as much as many do not agree with, or think that, the practice may be wrong. The truth is(as in all religions) there are good people and bad. So a broad generalization of said subculture is defamitory to those good ones(and there are many on these boards). I would not assume to call my blood brother any names that would damage our relationship an so it is with my virtual family. Put yourself in the shoes of a pagan ..if , in a conversation, your beliefs were called evil, the root of all the troubles in the world, etc. Do not condem them or call them evil. Judge actions, not people.


I have had the honor of participating in a few soween rituals. My old roomates were a wiccan, an assatru, a druid, and a healer. I can say I saw no graven images, no blood sacrifices no hex or curse material. We woke up that day and they wished me a happy new year(was a little confused until I researched it), we had a place set up in the backyard( you can call it an altr if you wish, though it wasnt) where we placed pictures and items from loved ones we had lost. A place for remembering and contemplating.
That night some freinds of ours came over. So, there were 20 or so there, and we gathered in the back yard and the Assatru(nordic religion) said the prayer to begin(yes..it was a prayer..albeit to his personl diety). What happened next was simple...fellowship, remembering those that had loved us and those that had been lost. We all sat around for hours and talked about friends, loved ones, even pets that we had lost and how they impacted our lives. I will say that it was one of the most powerful nights I have ever experienced. And yes, at one point, I swore I could feel my brother with me stronger than he had been. I cry ,even now, remembering the fellowship, the memories and the feelings.
There was no malevolence involved. No darkness, nothing that many people have been force fed and perceive soween to be.
Soween originated because the celts were afraid of the spirits. It is very akin to Dios De Morte in Mexico(over 90% catholic) where many dress up in bones and masks to chase away the spirits and leave things out in remembrance of their lost ones.

Most people today couldnt even tell you the proper name for the day. All most know(especially the kids) is that its a neat night to dress up and get candy.

In todays society,its a day for rememberance. A day for stepping back and adjusting your life and lifestyle in such a way that your loved ones that are no longer here would be proud. A day to mourn(yes) but also to laugh, love, and thank god,gods,the great spirit(whomever) for the blessing of having those who have passed and their life and light upon this world.

In regards to the similarites to the holidays, The catholic church aligned its holidays with those of various pagan religions in order to convert.
Christmas-soltice
Halloween-all saints, dios de morte
easter-the vernal equinox and spring festivals
more recent times- St. Valentines days coincides with Lupercallia.. A fertility festival.
Unlike a statement made above, you would not be hard pressed to find a day that isnt a pagan holiday. They are very specific days and coincide with things that happen in nature.(soltice, equinox, seasonal change)


Halloween is (in any country) what you choose to make of it. Most choose to follow the commercialised route and so be it. I have never read anything about anyone wanting to change the day christmas was celebrated even though it falls near a pagan holiday(as a pointed out above so do many others)celebration. Its what you make of it. I will not get into the unfortunate commercialization of christmas but, I will say that the holidays we have now(all of them) are a far cry what what any of them were meant to be.

What would Jesus do? A bold question to say the least. The better question would be: What did jesus do? Jesus went forth amung the "unclean", the thieves, whores and beggars and lead by example. He showed those around him what the embodiment of Love, acceptance, caring, devotion and forgiveness and service to your fellow man was.

John 14:6"Thomas, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man goes to the Father except through me. All who find the Father, first find me. If you know me, you know the way to the Father. And you do know me, for you have lived with me and you now see me."...Many find chirst on their own..but many more find christ through the actions of his followers. If we sit in judgement of those around us, condeming and casting (by proxy) people into hell, what does that show someone who may be faltering and waivering in their own faith(be it pagan ,jewish, etc)? Most come unto the Lord because of great kindness shown to them and personal revelations not browbeating about how evil they are now...but..I digress and I am sorry


*sits back an awaits the flamings*


Posted by: BluegrassLady 27-Oct-2004, 11:11 PM
What an interesting thread. I must admit that I have never really given much thought to what was behind Halloween. When I was a child..it just was and I don't remember any negative suggestions regarding it. It wasn't until my son's daughter got old enough to want to participate that it became something more. Because their church was against it, they didn't let her go. Their church did have a fall festival, with hay rides , games and candy. Now, however, with a new young minister, who doesn't feel that it is wrong, the grandkids will be out this year with their cartoon charactor costumes on.

I don't pretend to understand it all. Whatever the parents want to do is fine with me. They have to do what they think is right.

Just my two cents worth. biggrin.gif

Posted by: Madadh 28-Oct-2004, 05:45 AM
Oh what a little internet research will find:

From: http://home.comcast.net/~buaidh/Samhainn.html

Samhainn
Celtic Celebration of Renewal

Halloween and All Saints Day have their origin in the ancient Celtic feast of Samhainn celebrated on the first day of November. In the modern Gaelic languages, the name of the feast means "summer's end": Samhain (pronounced "sow-en") in Gaeilge (Irish Gaelic), Samhainn ("sah-vun") in Gàidhlig (Scots Gaelic), and Sauin ("sow-in") in Gaelg (Manx Gaelic). In the modern Brythonic languages, the name of the feast means "the first day of winter": Nos Calan Gaeaf ("nos cal-ahn gie-ahv') in Cymraeg (Welsh), Nos Kalann Gwav ("nos cal-ahn gwahv") in Kernewek (Cornish), and Noz Kala-Goañv ("noz cal-a-gwah") in Brezhoneg (Breton).

The Celts honored the intertwining forces of existence: darkness and light, night and day, cold and heat, death and life. Celtic knotwork art represents this intertwining. The Celts observed time as proceeding from darkness to light. Thus, the Celtic day began at dusk, the beginning of the dark and cold night, and ended the following dusk, the end of a day of light and warmth. The Celtic year began with An Geamhradh ("an gyow-ragh"), the dark Celtic winter, and ended with Am Foghar ("am fu-ghar"), the Celtic harvest. Samhainn marks the beginning of both An Geamhradh and the new Celtic year.

Samhainn begins at dusk on October 31, the eve of the new Celtic year. Oidhche Shamhna ("oi-kha haw-na"), the Eve of Samhainn, was the most important part of Samhainn. Villagers gathered the best of the autumn harvest and slaughtered cattle for the feast. The focus of each village's festivities was a great bonfire. Villagers cast the bones of the slaughtered cattle upon the flames. (The English word "bonfire" comes from these "bone fires.") With the bonfire roaring, the villagers extinguished all other fires. Each family then solemnly lit their hearth from the one great common flame, bonding all families of the village together.

The eve of the Celtic year was a very holy time. The Celts believed that Oidhche Shamhna was a gap in time. Our world and the Otherworld came together on the night between the old and new years. The dead could return to the places where they had lived. Many rituals of Oidhche Shamhna provided hospitality for dead ancestors. Celts put out food and drink for the dead with great ceremony. Villagers left their gates, doors, and windows unlocked to give the dead free passage into their homes. Swarms of spirits poured into our world on November Eve. Not all of these spirits were friendly, so Celts carved the images of spirit-guardians onto turnips. They set these jack o'lanterns before their doors keep out unwelcome visitors from the Otherworld.

There was also a much lighter side to the Celtic New Year rituals. Children put on strange disguises and roamed the countryside, pretending to be the returning dead or spirits from the Otherworld. Celts thought the break in reality on November Eve not only provided a link between the worlds, but also dissolved the structure of society for the night. Boys and girls would put on each other's clothes, and would generally flout convention by boisterous behavior and by playing tricks on their elders.

Divination of the events of the coming year was another prominent feature of Samhainn. Celts used hazelnuts, symbols of wisdom, to foretell the future. Bobbing for apples, another traditional Samhainn pastime, was a reference to the Celtic Emhain Abhlach, "Paradise of Apples," where the dead, having eaten of the sacred fruit, enjoyed a blissful immortality.

Ancient Celtic religion cast the year as a contest between the gods of winter and summer for the favor of the goddess of the earth. The god of summer claimed victory at Latha Buidhe Bealltainn, May Day, but at Samhainn the god of winter, who was also lord of the dead, was victorious. Celts often depicted the god of winter with antlers which he shed each autumn like a stag. Families in Brittany still herald the coming of winter by the baking kornigou, little cakes in the shape of antlers, to commemorate the god of winter shedding his "cuckold" horns as he returns to his kingdom in the Otherworld.

The ancient Celts used a lunar calendar of thirteen lunar months. As contact and trade with the Romans increased, the Celts adapted the Roman calendar into a Celtic solar calendar of twelve months beginning with Samhainn on the first day of an t-Samhain (November).

Celts were among the first people to adopt the new Christian religion. Saint Paul wrote his Epistle to the Galatians in about 53 AD to the Christian Celts of Galatia in what is now central Turkey. Christianity affirmed the Celtic ideals of family, community, renewal, and respect for the dead. The Christian Church elected to begin its liturgical year with the Feast of the Circumcision on the first day of January. The choice of January 1 was a compromise between the Celtic year beginning with Samhainn on November 1 and the Roman year beginning on March 1.

The Celts became a refuge for Christianity following the collapse of the Roman Empire in 476 AD. Celtic monks established monasteries throughout western and central Europe. The monasteries preserved the sacred scriptures of Christianity and kept the faith alive in the midst of chaos. In gratitude to its Celtic faithful, the Western Church gave Samhainn a Christian blessing in 837 AD when it designated November 1 as the Feast of All Saints or Hallow Tide. The evening of Oidhche Shamhna became Hallow Evening, Hallow E'en, or Halloween.

Posted by: maryellen 28-Oct-2004, 07:29 AM
Urian: if we are going to use scripture, here is one. "Those who are not for Me, are against Me."
Pagans, witches, etc. are not for one God. Half of the New Testament is telling pagans to stop their ways and follow Jesus. St. Paul is often telling people to stay away from gods like Baal. Is this judging? Yes. We have to teach ourselves and others what we see as right and wrong. Teach why or why not something glorifies God.
"Judge actions, not people" But a person is defined by what they do, what they believe. No one is casting people into hell. Every Christian knows they cannot do that. We are deciding what is the wrong and right way to live. Not just for this life, but keeping in mind the next as well. No one is browbeating -- we are discussing Halloween. I described very specific examples of violence earlier. Not generalizations.

Posted by: Tassiecelt 28-Oct-2004, 07:52 AM
I'm impressed with the thoughts and info coming up here, and the fact that we can discuss this as brethren even with a variety of thoughts and beliefs on the topic.

Maryellen, you display a real strength in your Bible knowledge.

Another command might be "Jer 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. "
Israel fell into idolatry many times by incorporation heathen beliefs into their own. God clearly condemned that time and time again.

Witchcraft is also clearly condemned by God, but the question is 'how closely is witchcraft connected to Halloween?'.

I have heard that covens around the world consider Halloween a serious and important date.
I know that even here, some Christian groups have prayer vigils to pray against what they consider a time of heightened evil activity.

The problem is that we all (I can assume) love celtic things, and as some have shown, Halloween is very celtic.

Can we (to use a friends expression) "pick off the meat and leave the bones"?
Can we take what good there is (if any) in Halloween and leave the rest?

Some have suggested that in dressing up - but not as witches.

I guess we will all come to our own conclusions, but it's good to question our beliefs, reassess them and examine them.

Jesus spoke against those who cared more for traditions of men than the commandments of God. So are our traditions in line with His teaching?

Thats' why I like to examine what I believe. Sometimes I find I have to change, other times not.

this is how we grow i guess.

Posted by: Danann 28-Oct-2004, 08:49 AM
OK... I think some things need an explaination...

First, Wicca and Witches in regards to Hallow'en - or Samhainn. This was a festival celebrated in the Celtic nations as the new year... its thought that the day between Summer - when all things live - and Winter - when all things die - there's a barrier that thins to a point of crossing. The Celts would put out treats and feast for their relatives that had passed on in case they stopped by to check on them. This is where passing out food comes from. Children would paint their faces, don masks and the like to "trick" people into thinking that they were the spirits... there's the costuming aspect. This was not a Witches holy day or even a Druidish thing, it was a cultural thing. Just as Passover was a cultural thing.

Now, I am a Christian, have been most of my life. But with my interest in Celtic lore, I delved into the practice of Wicca, I was never a witch or a practicing witch, but I did research things quite a bit. The Witch's creed is to harm none, so the antics on Halloween can't be said that its done by those witches. For the most part, their beliefs are for peace. The Bible, since there's a fondness for taking verses out of context... Says "Judge not, lest yourself be judged."

When the Pope in the 3rd and 4th centuries decided to expand Christainity across the world, his direction was clear... Don't change the people or their practices... moralize them and adopt them. This was the reason that Christianity spread so fast. Christmas was the Roman Holiday celebrating the sun, Easter a holiday celebrating the goddess Eastre - earth and planting. Every holy holiday we have has pagan roots. All Saint's Day is the day celebrating life conquering death... that even when evil rules the night, Saints walk victorious in the morning... This was the Bishop Patrick's stance on Samhainn.

Witches and goolies really had nothing to do with what Halloween was about. Do you condem the Spanish for having Dios de los Muertos (Day of the Dead)? This is the celtic equivelent. And in its roots has nothing to do with Witches or the craft.

Posted by: urian 28-Oct-2004, 12:53 PM
QUOTE (maryellen @ 28-Oct-2004, 07:29 AM)
Urian: if we are going to use scripture, here is one. "Those who are not for Me, are against Me."
Pagans, witches, etc. are not for one God. Half of the New Testament is telling pagans to stop their ways and follow Jesus. St. Paul is often telling people to stay away from gods like Baal. Is this judging? Yes. We have to teach ourselves and others what we see as right and wrong. Teach why or why not something glorifies God.
"Judge actions, not people" But a person is defined by what they do, what they believe. No one is casting people into hell. Every Christian knows they cannot do that. We are deciding what is the wrong and right way to live. Not just for this life, but keeping in mind the next as well. No one is browbeating -- we are discussing Halloween. I described very specific examples of violence earlier. Not generalizations.

sounds like I hit a nerve. so, are you proposing juding an enitre group of people? That would be something akin to every non-christian calling christians evil because of the crusades, the inquisitions ?

yes. I realize I digressed a bit. It happens at times I did apoligize.

as far as casting people into hell, I see it done on a daily basis where I live. NOt all religious groups, mind you, but many judge someone by their actions, the way they look, etc. Heck, I mayself have been told that I was goin gto hell for looking like a kin head abd having tattoos from 10 plus years ago.

as for the browbeating comment, Like I said. I digressed some.

I realize full well what we are discussing...I am able and capable of reading and discerning for myself, thank you. If I was unclear as to WHAT we were talking about, I wouldnt have posted initially.

Posted by: cori 28-Oct-2004, 01:24 PM
I know I am coming in late...as usual, but I am finding this to be an extremely interesting thread.

Urian, please don't be offended by people telling you that you are going to hell because of a tattoo. My father is a Christian and he has tattoos from years ago. It doesn't mean he's going to hell. What sends a person to hell is their disobedience of God's commands. Without even entering into issues of witchcraft and such, eveyone is bound for hell. Please don't misunderstand me. Keep reading.

God outlines ten basic rules for mankind. You may have heard of the ten commandments? Many people try hard to keep them, but it isn't going to be enough to secure heaven for them. James 2 says that "if any man keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." Tell me, have you ever lied? I have. Ever stolen anything? Not even something really small? I have. Ever taken the Lord's name in vain? I have. Ever looked on another person with lust? Jesus called that adultery. I'm guilty there too. The bible calls this sin and "the wages of sin is death". Hell. Separation from God.

But there was one man who could pay the penalty for us. God Himself. And he did. It's that simple. Acceptance of this fact and rejection of sin secures an eternity on a new earth. Rejection of this and continued disobedience secures an eternity in a place the bible calls "the lake of fire", what we call hell.

So no, people can't send other people to hell. They ought to be showing other people how to avoid it. Most people who escape it sit smugly by, not caring whether any else does or not.

Sorry if this is off topic. wink.gif


Posted by: urian 28-Oct-2004, 01:29 PM
QUOTE (cori @ 28-Oct-2004, 01:24 PM)
I know I am coming in late...as usual, but I am finding this to be an extremely interesting thread.

Urian, please don't be offended by people telling you that you are going to hell because of a tattoo. My father is a Christian and he has tattoos from years ago. It doesn't mean he's going to hell. What sends a person to hell is their disobedience of God's commands. Without even entering into issues of witchcraft and such, eveyone is bound for hell. Please don't misunderstand me. Keep reading.

God outlines ten basic rules for mankind. You may have heard of the ten commandments? Many people try hard to keep them, but it isn't going to be enough to secure heaven for them. James 2 says that "if any man keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." Tell me, have you ever lied? I have. Ever stolen anything? Not even something really small? I have. Ever taken the Lord's name in vain? I have. Ever looked on another person with lust? Jesus called that adultery. I'm guilty there too. The bible calls this sin and "the wages of sin is death". Hell. Separation from God.

But there was one man who could pay the penalty for us. God Himself. And he did. It's that simple. Acceptance of this fact and rejection of sin secures an eternity on a new earth. Rejection of this and continued disobedience secures an eternity in a place the bible calls "the lake of fire", what we call hell.

So no, people can't send other people to hell. They ought to be showing other people how to avoid it. Most people who escape it sit smugly by, not caring whether any else does or not.

Sorry if this is off topic. wink.gif

I am aware of all covenants made between the lord and the house of isreal
in the old and the new testaments
thank you

Posted by: maryellen 28-Oct-2004, 04:14 PM
Maybe it goes without saying, but obeying God's law does not get you into heaven. You can sin every day of your life and accept Jesus as your savior, beg for forgiveness of your sins (from your heart) and that according to the Bible will enter your name into "The book of names."

You can also obey all the ten commandments and still not go to heaven. That is one of the reasons Jesus came: To show the people that following each rule without putting your heart and mind towards God will get you nowhere.

If someone were lying near death on the side of the road, there is no commandment (of the 10 commandments) that forbids you from ignoring them. However, Jesus came and said the greatest commandment is Love your neighbor as yourself and love the Lord your God with all your heart and mind. So that commandment tells you to help that person.

I am not disagreeing, just adding and clarifying what was previously said.

Also, no one suggested judging people by the past. Judging them by their present actions is what is allowed.

Posted by: urian 28-Oct-2004, 04:44 PM
1 Corinthians 5:13 God will judge those outside. "Purge the evil person from your midst."

James 4:11 says "Brothers do not slander one another," and James 4:12 continues: "But you - who are you to judge your neighbor?"

Posted by: urian 28-Oct-2004, 05:39 PM
Exodus 12:12... I will execute judgement. I am the lord
Proverbs 29:26 Many seek the rulers favour; but every man's judgement from the Lord.




Posted by: Shadows 28-Oct-2004, 07:32 PM
We are all over looking the greatest comandment of all, if it is followed you can't go wrong!

" Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Simple and plain in the christain bible and also in the pagan beliefs ( even though the pagans believe that what actions you take come back three fold to you... good or bad )

That statement covers all 10 commandments plus some.

Posted by: urian 28-Oct-2004, 10:15 PM
QUOTE (Shadows @ 28-Oct-2004, 07:32 PM)
We are all over looking the greatest comandment of all, if it is followed you can't go wrong!

" Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Simple and plain in the christain bible and also in the pagan beliefs ( even though the pagans believe that what actions you take come back three fold to you... good or bad )

That statement covers all 10 commandments plus some.

very true.

and I apologize to you, tassie, for almost thread jacking this thread

Posted by: MacAibhistin 28-Oct-2004, 10:26 PM
I go away for a few days and look what happens! Well, in all honesty, I could tell by the title of the thread and its originator where this thread was going - straight to hell. tongue.gif

It is an interesting thread, and a fun read all in all. Here's my two cents worth. Halloween is not a holiday, unless you are a true pre-Christian Celt (which, I am sure, none of us truly are). So, today, it is an Old World carried over tradition that has been adapted to fit our materialistic culutre - hence the emphasis on treats and prefabricated costumes based largely on pop-culture caricatures. Nevertheless, in North America, we enjoy the tradition and it provides most people with a little fun. It does not encourage us to become Satanists and I have never heard of anyone leaving their church to join a coven because of Halloween. I am a Christian, but I see no need to walk in fear. What would Jesus do? The same thing he did when he grew up in Nazareth. He participated in the local customs of the day and placed. He fished, he went to parties, he danced, he drank wine, he went to church, etc.

It seems that some people try to state their beliefs on here in such a way as to make others who don't feel the same as somehow inferior. Folks, let's not tear each other down, show a little respect and compassion. We don't need legal interpreters of a creed spreading their "stuff" here, it simply is not what this neo-Celtic community is to be about.

If you don't like Halloween, stay home. If you like it, enjoy it. If youths in your areas are being violent or destructive, it is not because the event is from the Devil, it is because these kids have poor values (and poor role models!)

God Bless and good night.

Rory

Posted by: cori 29-Oct-2004, 06:10 AM
QUOTE
We are all over looking the greatest comandment of all, if it is followed you can't go wrong!

" Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Simple and plain in the christain bible and also in the pagan beliefs ( even though the pagans believe that what actions you take come back three fold to you... good or bad )




This is a good commandment, yes. God says that the greatest commandment is to "love one another as I have loved you". This goes beyond all human love. This love is unconditional. biggrin.gif

Posted by: cori 29-Oct-2004, 06:33 AM
Wait a second. My mistake. I didn't realize until I had already posted, but that was actually the second commandment. The great commandment, Christ said in Matthew 22...

"Then one of them, a lawyer, (meaning that this guy already knew the law) asked him a question, saying
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
The second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."





Just as a side note since we are still actually in the "Halloween" topic...

My own opinion is that even though I can love God with my whole being and celebrate on October 31st, other people may see my actions differently. As I don't wish to offend my brethren or cause them to stumble, I refrain from celebrating a day that is commonly held as belonging to satan. (Though in another thread, I stated that every day "is the day which the Lord has made" and no days "belong" to satan.)

Posted by: susieq76 29-Oct-2004, 07:22 AM
Just to chime in with my cheap two cents, I am not going to go into any details about anything not on the topic of Halloween here. I just wanted to say that I wholeheartedly agree with MacAibhistin's (sp?) statements.

'Nuff said.

Posted by: BluegrassLady 29-Oct-2004, 08:26 PM
QUOTE (MacAibhistin @ 29-Oct-2004, 12:26 AM)
I go away for a few days and look what happens!  Well, in all honesty, I could tell by the title of the thread and its originator where this thread was going - straight to hell.  tongue.gif

It is an interesting thread, and a fun read all in all.  Here's my two cents worth.  Halloween is not a holiday, unless you are a true pre-Christian Celt (which, I am sure, none of us truly are).  So, today, it is an Old World carried over tradition that has been adapted to fit our materialistic culutre - hence the emphasis on treats and prefabricated costumes based largely on pop-culture caricatures.  Nevertheless, in North America, we enjoy the tradition and it provides most people with a little fun.  It does not encourage us to become Satanists and I have never heard of anyone leaving their church to join a coven because of Halloween.  I am a Christian, but I see no need to walk in fear.  What would Jesus do? The same thing he did when he grew up in Nazareth.  He participated in the local customs of the day and placed.  He fished, he went to parties, he danced, he drank wine, he went to church, etc. 

It seems that some people try to state their beliefs on here in such a way as to make others who don't feel the same as somehow inferior.  Folks, let's not tear each other down, show a little respect and compassion.  We don't need legal interpreters of a creed spreading their "stuff" here, it simply is not what this neo-Celtic community is to be about. 

If you don't like Halloween, stay home.    If you like it, enjoy it.  If youths in your areas are being violent or destructive, it is not because the event is from the Devil, it is because these kids have poor values (and poor role models!) 

God Bless and good night.

Rory

I have been reading all the comments made on this thread and I must admit that I never thought of Halloween as being anything more than a time to dress up and go out with friends and get candy from neighbors. My children enjoyed it and now my grandchildren do so. I think that MacAibhistin expressed it well. I feel that everyone should do what feels right to them and no one should judge.

Just my thoughts smile.gif

Posted by: Tassiecelt 30-Oct-2004, 07:04 AM
QUOTE (cori @ 29-Oct-2004, 10:10 PM)
QUOTE
We are all over looking the greatest comandment of all, if it is followed you can't go wrong!

" Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Simple and plain in the christain bible and also in the pagan beliefs ( even though the pagans believe that what actions you take come back three fold to you... good or bad )




This is a good commandment, yes. God says that the greatest commandment is to "love one another as I have loved you". This goes beyond all human love. This love is unconditional. biggrin.gif

The two commandments in Matt 22 are intended to be a brief summary that includes, not replaces the other commandments, this certainly includes the ten.

When I was a pagan I was fond of quoting the Bible out of context, not really understanding what I was speaking of.

The first of the 2 great commandments - to love God... is explained and amplified by the first four of the decalogue. These deal with our relationship with God.

The second is explained in greater detail by the last six of the decalogue, these deal with our relationship with Man.

So if we truly love God, we shall have no other gods before Him, make no graven images, not take His Name in vain and call Holy what God calls Holy (sabbath).

When we speak of "loving God and our neighbor, these things need to be considered, while remembering that to the follower of Jesus these cease to be 10 "do not's" and become ten wonderful promises.

This is not really off the topic of the thread, ( no apologies necessary Urian my friend) it brings me back to the Halloween question, it's not a case of whether "we like" it or not.
When we love God we want all that we do to be honouring to Him. (Thy will, not mine, be done)

So how does a holiday/festival/celebration (whatever you want to call it) that focusses of witches, goblins, and the like, glorify the Creator? How does that present us as "children of light"?

I'm not judging, my purpose is only to get us to examine our traditions, question our practices and see how we can better bring them in line with what pleases God.

I for one, can make many improvements there as I seek to serve the Lord Jesus more closely.


Posted by: maryellen 01-Nov-2004, 09:06 AM
Amen Tassie!

Posted by: CelticRose 04-Nov-2004, 06:20 PM
Ok, I have read through all these posts. First of all, all the holidays came from pagan practices. so do we stop celebrating Christmas and Easter as Christians? I am not going to!

I do not celebrate Halloween and whatever occultic practices, but for me I see it as a fun time for kids to dress up and I do treat the kids that come to my home with candy and I make pumpkin pies that night as a beginning of our upcoming holiday season! I really think we make way too much of Halloween. It is no more a pagan holiday than Christmas or Easter! However, I acknowledge Jesus on Christmas and Easter, whereas I just see Halloween as a fun night for kids to dress up and get candy. If the witches or Satanists want to use that night to celebrate too, let them be! I am fully aware of both occultic groups getting together to pray and have ceremonies. But we Christians do the same during Christmas and Easter! do I agree with the occult and paganism? No! But am I going to try to stop them from participating in what they believe and their night of practicing their spiritual worship? No! I mean, like I said! Christmas and Easter are practiced by Christians all over and yet are originally pagan holidays!

Just my two cents. smile.gif

Posted by: maryellen 05-Nov-2004, 08:02 AM
Yes, Christmas, Easter, etc. have pagan origins. However, and this is a big however, they are focused on Jesus. Halloween has nothing to do with Jesus. Pope Gregory whatever tried to usurp the celtic new year by moving All Saints Day from May to November 1st. But the Irish continued the Halloween tradition and carried it to the USA.
Halloween celebrates dark, devils, witches, etc. No God, no Jesus. Yet, everything you do should be to glorify God. Going along with the mainstream usually does not do this.
Christmas, Easter, are there because of Jesus and celebrate Him. By this logic, should we celebrate ALL the pagan, wiccan and satanists holidays since it is "all good fun"?
Just a thought.

Posted by: cori 05-Nov-2004, 11:51 AM
A very good thought at that.

Posted by: CelticRose 05-Nov-2004, 01:53 PM
Well, a very good point MaryEllen! I had not thought of it all that way before. Thank you for enlightening this person who calls herself a Christian. Obviously, not a very good one at that! Many thanks again. smile.gif thumbs_up.gif

Posted by: urian 05-Nov-2004, 04:57 PM
QUOTE (maryellen @ 05-Nov-2004, 08:02 AM)
Yes, Christmas, Easter, etc. have pagan origins. However, and this is a big however, they are focused on Jesus. Halloween has nothing to do with Jesus. Pope Gregory whatever tried to usurp the celtic new year by moving All Saints Day from May to November 1st. But the Irish continued the Halloween tradition and carried it to the USA.
Halloween celebrates dark, devils, witches, etc. No God, no Jesus. Yet, everything you do should be to glorify God. Going along with the mainstream usually does not do this.
Christmas, Easter, are there because of Jesus and celebrate Him. By this logic, should we celebrate ALL the pagan, wiccan and satanists holidays since it is "all good fun"?
Just a thought.

soooooooooo
now you are calling pagans and wiccans satanists?
nice
how lvery little you know and how very little you seem to want to know.

Its fine. I do realize that many people are happy being told what and how to think and consider the views of others blasphemy or heresy.

I dont think,though, that any of the non christian brethren here(and this includes buhddists, pagan, jew, etc) would like to know you consider them satanits or hold the view that they are going to your hell.

toodles

Posted by: urian 05-Nov-2004, 05:36 PM
I want to apologize to the members for my outburst earlier.
I am human and , thus, am prone to lapses in my striving to be a better person.

Posted by: CelticRose 05-Nov-2004, 05:47 PM
Urian! Don't worry about it! I am striving to be a better person too and sometimes I write before I think. I learn a lot from all of you!

Take care, my friend! smile.gif

Posted by: cori 06-Nov-2004, 07:50 AM
Urian,
No offense taken. We are all prone to defend ourselves and our beliefs. smile.gif


Posted by: dragonboy3611 06-Nov-2004, 04:57 PM
QUOTE (Tassiecelt @ 27-Oct-2004, 12:12 AM)
While not really a big "holiday" in Australia, I have found from another website that this appears to be a holy cow that is beyond criticism in the USA.

My view has always been that a Christian should best avoid this celebration since it's roots lie in paganism and it's associations with witchcraft. ( I mean real witchcraft as defined by the Bible and not the misconceptions and even atrocities committed by misguided churchmen in the 1300's and on).

The Creation Science Foundation are in agreement with me.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/halloween.html

How do you feel? Is it a bit like Xmas to you - some good, some bad? or do you avoid it altogether?

Please, I am soliciting the views of my Christian brethren here, I have no desire to argue with pagans in this place.

Well don't the roots to christmas devoid from pagans? Should we avoid that to?

Posted by: Annham 06-Nov-2004, 05:12 PM
This thread and the halloween thread remind me of the old Johnny Cash song, Does anyone remember it??

The corus goes something like,
"Don't go mixin religion and politics with the folk songs of our land"...

*Annham goes off to try to find the words of the song...*

Posted by: Annham 06-Nov-2004, 06:57 PM
Ok, Here it is, I was wrong,
The focus here is "Political Incompatibility" and "Folksongs"...
I guess we could substitute "Religious Incompatibility" and "Celtic Radio"

walkman.gif

The One on the Left is on the Right
by JR Cash

There once was a musical troupe
A pickin' singin' folk group
They sang the mountain ballads
And the folk songs of our land

They were long on musical ability
Folks thought they would go far
But political incompatibility led to their downfall

Well, the one on the right was on the left
And the one in the middle was on the right
And the one on the left was in the middle
And the guy in the rear was a Methodist

This musical aggregation toured the entire nation
Singing the traditional ballads
And the folk songs of our land
They performed with great virtuosity
And soon they were the rage
But political animosity prevailed upon the stage

Well, the one on the right was on the left
And the one in the middle was on the right
And the one on the left was in the middle
And the guy in the rear burned his driver's license

Well the curtain had ascended
A hush fell on the crowd
As thousands there were gathered to hear The folk songs of our land
But they took their politics seriously
And that night at the concert hall
As the audience watched deliriously
They had a free-for-all

Well, the one on the right was on the bottom
And the one in the middle was on the top
And the one on the left got a broken arm
And the guy in the rear, said, "Oh dear"

Now this should be a lesson if you plan to start a folk group
Don't go mixin' politics with the folk songs of our land
Just work on harmony and diction
Play your banjo well
And if you have political convictions keep them to yourself

Now, the one on the left works in a bank
And the one in the middle drives a truck
The one on the right's an all-night deejay
And the guy in the rear got drafted

Posted by: Robert Phoenix 27-Oct-2007, 09:36 AM
Well, this has started again. Maybe we should completeley redue and redefine our Holiday celebrations to avoid all this stuff. Getting rid of all the commercialism might not be such a bad idea.

Scots ban American Halloween

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/10/26/nhalloween126.xml

Posted by: Gwynhwyvar 28-Oct-2007, 09:40 AM
I once heard a very reformed Presbyterian pastor once say that he didn't think that a child dressing up in a costume and going around begging for candy was that big a deal. He then went on to say that he believed, jokingly, that Halloween was invented by the dentists so they could get more business. biggrin.gif
We take things WAY to seriously these days. Just sit back a have a good laugh.

Posted by: Nova Scotian 30-Oct-2007, 06:48 PM
My family and I carved a pumpkin this year. It was a carving of Jesus. What better jack O'lantern could frighten off evil spirits

Posted by: oldraven 01-Nov-2007, 10:09 AM
A better question would be What, in Halloween, is Evil? Is a Pagan any more Evil than a Buddhist? How about Christians of Denominations not supported by 'The Church'?

Who here can call my wife Evil, because she finds more truth in her beliefs than in ours?

I've never heard of a child converting to the Occult because they dressed up on a Celtic Pagan Holiday that has zero relation to the Occult.

The truth has been stated about this holiday, these people, and their reasons for celebrating as they do, numerous times here, but it never seems to be heard. Many (and the majority) seem to read a post, looking for things to refute and condemn. Anything but actually listening to what is being said.

If this were a thread about skin colour and not faith, it would be rife with racism.

That said, I've always celebrated Halloween, all my life, growing up in a devout Protestant home. I even dressed up as Jesus once. My parents weren't very impressed, but I don't see any difference between dressing up as one hero and another.

We all stand for Democracy, which comes from the Greeks, a decidedly Un-Christian people, but we don't ask if it would offends God, a spiritual Monarch. Their Democratic Assemblies no doubt included the opinions of their gods, but we don't deny the system. Halloween is a holiday that comes from Pagans, and at one time included Non-Christian ceremony, but is it any different from our choice in Government, since we have stripped the Holiday of its' religion, just as we have Democracy.

We've been taught that anything related to Paganism is Evil, but it doesn't make it true.

And for I'm sure not the last time, Witches are a Christian invention.

Posted by: oldraven 01-Nov-2007, 11:28 AM
QUOTE (maryellen @ 28-Oct-2004, 03:14 PM)
Judging them by their present actions is what is allowed.

No, that's untrue. Man has never been awarded the authority to judge their fellow man. In fact, someone has already quoted Christ as saying just that, in this thread. We do not do God's work for him. We are far too juvenile for that responsibility, and it always comes out the same way. Superiority and condemnation.

Posted by: Nova Scotian 01-Nov-2007, 04:01 PM
QUOTE (oldraven @ 01-Nov-2007, 11:09 AM)
A better question would be What, in Halloween, is Evil? Is a Pagan any more Evil than a Buddhist? How about Christians of Denominations not supported by 'The Church'?

Who here can call my wife Evil, because she finds more truth in her beliefs than in ours?

I've never heard of a child converting to the Occult because they dressed up on a Celtic Pagan Holiday that has zero relation to the Occult.

The truth has been stated about this holiday, these people, and their reasons for celebrating as they do, numerous times here, but it never seems to be heard. Many (and the majority) seem to read a post, looking for things to refute and condemn. Anything but actually listening to what is being said.

If this were a thread about skin colour and not faith, it would be rife with racism.

That said, I've always celebrated Halloween, all my life, growing up in a devout Protestant home. I even dressed up as Jesus once. My parents weren't very impressed, but I don't see any difference between dressing up as one hero and another.

We all stand for Democracy, which comes from the Greeks, a decidedly Un-Christian people, but we don't ask if it would offends God, a spiritual Monarch. Their Democratic Assemblies no doubt included the opinions of their gods, but we don't deny the system. Halloween is a holiday that comes from Pagans, and at one time included Non-Christian ceremony, but is it any different from our choice in Government, since we have stripped the Holiday of its' religion, just as we have Democracy.

We've been taught that anything related to Paganism is Evil, but it doesn't make it true.

And for I'm sure not the last time, Witches are a Christian invention.

OK. Raven, I think you took my post the wrong way. I read the story of the Jack O'Lantern and saw how it was used to frighten off evil spirits at one time. I was not refering to anyone being evil. Thats all. Sorry if I offended you.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack-o'-lantern

Posted by: oldraven 01-Nov-2007, 10:12 PM
Don't worry, NS, I'm not one to be offended. But I am one to call out falsehoods when I see them. Yes, it gets misunderstood, and often comes across as angry, but I don't hold these statements against anyone. And I certainly don't single anyone out, least of all you, as I understood exactly what you meant. wink.gif Like you said, they're warding off evil spirits, not inviting them in to worship.

What really disturbs me is the blatant grouping of people that simply have a different belief system into a completely unrelated and contemptible crowd. When we talk about a Pagan Holiday, and all of a sudden it's about Satan, demons, and witches, all seen as evil. These misconceptions go back over a thousand years, have been condemned by the church (yes, public apologies have been made by the Pontif himself over the treatment of non-Christians, in particular Pagans, through the ages), yet still live on in the way we raise our children to see non-Christians. Line up another generation of misunderstanding, otherwise known as ignorance. What else can you call a person who makes it a point to NOT discover the truth when it is there in front of their eyes, but ignorant? It's the religious equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and crying 'Lalalalala'. What is the point of discussion if you enter the conversation with every intention of leaving it with the same stance, no matter what new knowledge is offered?

It's disheartening, to say the least, and doesn't sound at all Christ-like. But these complaints have been made about Christians for centuries, and is, in my eyes, the number one reason why the faith is declining.

Posted by: oldraven 01-Nov-2007, 10:17 PM
One last paradigm. Saying Celtic Pagans are Evil and worship demons is no different than saying black people can't see in the dark or swim. I'm just wondering how long it's going to take society to figure that out.

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