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> Accurate Bible?, controversy
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Raven 
Posted: 07-Jul-2004, 09:11 AM
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You are right Reddrake. 2 different people or organizations cannot hold copyright on the exact same thing. And what they own are the study notes. The KJV is in the Public Domain.

I to find it amazing that these powerful smart people are so stupid tongue.gif

Actually I find it amazing the amount of undocumented/poorly documented information that is put out as fact by people who have an ax to grind on a particular doctrine.......on second thought I guess that isn't so suprising or amazing after all wink.gif

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reddrake79 
Posted: 07-Jul-2004, 03:51 PM
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Another thing about this Vatican coverup,

I sincerely doubt they were able to get every copy of every document in existence that they didn't want circulating. However, if they are the only ones with a copy now, what does that say about what other people thought about the document? Apparently it wasn't worthy enough to be copied by the then current owner. What does that say about the document? The person who had possetion (sp?) didn't think that it was completly accurate or trustworthy or important enough to save it for later generations. It is usually the letter that nobody reads that gets tossed or misplaced. The ones that everybody reads get used and copied and used and copied etc. Just because the document dates back earlier than others does not neccessarily mean that it is the most accurate. Look at the circumstances surrounding how some of those documents were found in the vatican. Many were found in odd ball places where people had forgotten them. Doesn't sound like they were important documents to the people of that time does it? smile.gif

sorry, had to get that out of my system wink.gif

now back to your regularly scheduled discussion. smile.gif

can we get back to using hard evidence to prove or diprove the accuracy of the Bible.

as was stated earlier the suppose vatican cover up will prove to be incoclusive. Not enough hard evidence.

This post has been edited by reddrake79 on 07-Jul-2004, 03:56 PM


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reddrake79 
Posted: 07-Jul-2004, 04:48 PM
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this is from a previous post:

Matthew 27:49 omits text which was in the original. Moffatt correctly adds it, while the RSV puts it in a footnote: "And another took a spear and pierced His side, and out came water and blood." The Savior's death came when a soldier pierced His side, Revelation 1:7.

My response:

It is scientifically inaccurate to say that the spear is what killed Christ. Blood does not seperate into blood AND water until it has been sitting for a while. When you cut yourself, do you bleed blood and water? Moffatt is incorrect in interpreting that verse to mean that the spear killed Christ. What does it prove? That Christ was actually and literally dead before He was speared. While you are living, water and blood cannot come out of you when you are cut. Revelation does not hint at that translation either. Revelation 1:7 (in both NIV and KJV) says "...even those who pierced him..." That could be the soldier with the spear, the soldiers with the nails, the Jewish priests, those that continue to reject Christ. That passage is showing that ALL will see the second coming of Christ, even those that don't believe His message. Apparently the KJV translators knew their science and interpreted that passage so that it actually makes sense.

from a previous post:
We have shown how in Revelation 20:10 that the italicized "are" is incorrect and that "were cast" in italics would have been more appropriate.

My response:
John was shown this information, it would make more sense since he wrote it from a first person perspective as if it were happening right now, because it was happening right now: to John. It may have happened in the past, according to our calander but John saw it as if it were happening now.

Most of what is shown is open to individual interpretaition, but does not mean it is inaccurate. (If a person is baptized IN water are they not then baptized WITH water?)

in other cases I found that what was said to be ommitted or changed was actually there, just in a language foreign to most of us: Proper Formal English of the 1600's

There might be a case for updating the english used to modern english, but not for inaccuracy.

This post has been edited by reddrake79 on 07-Jul-2004, 05:08 PM
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Raven 
Posted: 08-Jul-2004, 08:18 AM
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I have some information at home about the amount of known copies and translations in circulation of the New Testament in particular at home and if I am not mistaken it amounts to 10,000 copies (manuscripts hand copied)

This is part of the scientific test for the accuracy of any work of antiquity. It gives a basis for comparison from copy to copy to allow for a conclusive decision as to whether a work has been preserved accurately based on imperical evidence.

I find and have found that most of the argument about whether the Bible is accurate has been based on issues about how it is translated and arguing that the translators did not know how to do their job or did not want to do a good accurate job due to personal preferences. This definitely begs the question and side steps the issue as to whether the Bible itself is accurate as opposed to, "has the Bible been translated accurately." As I have stated before, my personal studies have indicated that even the differences in translation styles, methods and ideas have boiled down to nothing signifintly different even with all of the variables added to the equation by translation.

We have so many preconcieved notions going into examining the scriptures that it is often difficult to be coldly objective and leave behind what we have previously heard/learned, so that we can examine the facts as to whether the text has been accurately preserved.

Here are some things that I have examined personally and found to be conclusive.
  • how does the text compare to outside extra Biblical evidence
  • such as archealogical evidence. Does it support or disagree?
  • How does the text compare to itself ? - Are there contradictions or does it match perfectly? Bare in mind that when comparing text for harmonization purposes, to be objective we can not make arbitrary judgement calls as to whether something is made up because it is similar to another text or what is described does not seem possible. The case I am talking about is contradiction. E.G if the Bible were to say in one place that the mother of Jesus was Mary and then in another that the mother of Jesus is Martha. That would be a contradiction.
  • This next part I have found fascinating - Does the Bible disagree with what we know about science? Hard provable science, not theories, but the laws of Physics.

I once believed strongly that the Bible was not reliable, that it was full of contradiction, error and inaccuracies. When I set out to prove it, I came up empty.

I learned that the error and inaccuracy actually lay with those who had been telling me in their ignorance why the Bible could not be trusted. (please don't anyone take this personal because these are things I myself used to believe until I took a closer look)
- the Bible has been through so many translations is has to be full of error (covered this one in an earlier post)
- remember that this book was written by man
- science is at odds with the Bible, what about the theory of evolution? Didn't we form from the primordial sludge by happenstance? (a topic covered elsewhere on this board but never the less theory vs theory with no empiracle evidence to support it - just a brief aside as I used to believe this also - but then realized why it is still after all these years called a theory -no conclusive proof - this theory is at odds with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics)
- so many of the Biblical stories seem impossible, it must be fairy tales. E.G. the long day of Joshua.

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DesertRose 
Posted: 08-Jul-2004, 05:42 PM
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Raven, have you ever read anything by Josh MacDowell? He was an atheisit who set out to prove the Bible wrong and instead became a Christian! I love his writings and would highly recommend his books for anybody who has questions.


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Raven 
Posted: 09-Jul-2004, 10:26 AM
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QUOTE (CelticRose @ 08-Jul-2004, 05:42 PM)
Raven, have you ever read anything by Josh MacDowell? He was an atheisit who set out to prove the Bible wrong and instead became a Christian! I love his writings and would highly recommend his books for anybody who has questions.

Why yes Rose I have read 3 books by Josh.

He is my favorite author on Christian Apologetics as he is the only one that I have found that presents a totally logical and balanced argument. (not colored with opinions and information that is suspect - that sort of thing destroys much of an authors credibility with me)

I have read Evidence that Demands a Verdict 1 & 2, plus more than a carpenter. As far as Biblical Apologetics and a case for the reliability of the scriptures, I have to say that Evidence 1 is without question, the definitive work.

Perhaps I should start an Apologetics thread in the Book forum? You wouldn't know that I read as much as I do by my lack of posts there tongue.gif

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DesertRose 
Posted: 09-Jul-2004, 05:59 PM
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Whoa! Raven! That is really cool! Good for you! That would be great if you started a apolegetics thread. Imagine what trouble we could get ourselves into there! biggrin.gif
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behan 
Posted: 18-Jul-2004, 11:24 AM
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I FIND ALL RELIGION DISGUSTING AND VENOMOUS , ACCORDING TO MENSA MAGAZINE THE FACT IS THAT THE HIGHER SOMEONES IQ OR EDUCATION THE LESS LIKELY THEY WILL TO BELIVE IN THE FALLACY OF GOD , I PERSONALLY BELIVE RELIGION TO BE A HORRIBLE AFFLICTION ON OUR SOCIETY I BELIVE IT RIPS APART COMMUNITIES AND STOPS THE ADVANCMENT OF HUMAN SOCIETY , THE BIBLE AND CHRISITIANITY JUST LIKE THE KORAN AND ISLAM IARE BOTH PRIMITIVE BELIEFES AND I CANNOT BELIVE THAT IN THIS DAY AND AGE PEOPLE READ THIS TERRIBLE RAG AND TAKE IT SERIOSLY I AM LUCKY ENOUGH TO COME FROM SOCIALIST LIBERAL EUROPE WHERE CHURCH ATTENDANCE IS DOWN TO 5 % UNLIKE , 70 % IN AMERICA , SO I BELIVE THIS TO BE A VICTORY AGAINST THIS SO CALLED GOD , TO THINK THAT CHRISITIANITY WILL EXIST IN 100 YEARS IS MORONIC AND UNTRUE PEOPLE WILL LOOK BACK AT THESE HORRIBLE BELIEFS AND BE THANKFUL WHEN THEY ARE EXTINGUASED FROM OUR LIVES .

IF THOSE CHRISITIANS HAD THEIR WAY THE EARTH WOULD STILL BE FLAT WITH HELL DOWN BELOW AND HEAVEN A LITTLE LEFT OF THE MOON .
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Shadows 
Posted: 18-Jul-2004, 04:03 PM
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QUOTE (behan @ 18-Jul-2004, 11:24 AM)
I FIND ALL RELIGION DISGUSTING AND VENOMOUS , ACCORDING TO MENSA MAGAZINE THE FACT IS THAT THE HIGHER SOMEONES IQ OR EDUCATION THE LESS LIKELY THEY WILL TO BELIVE IN THE FALLACY OF GOD , I PERSONALLY BELIVE RELIGION TO BE A HORRIBLE AFFLICTION ON OUR SOCIETY I BELIVE IT RIPS APART COMMUNITIES AND STOPS THE ADVANCMENT OF HUMAN SOCIETY , THE BIBLE AND CHRISITIANITY JUST LIKE THE KORAN AND ISLAM IARE BOTH PRIMITIVE BELIEFES AND I CANNOT BELIVE THAT IN THIS DAY AND AGE PEOPLE READ THIS TERRIBLE RAG AND TAKE IT SERIOSLY I AM LUCKY ENOUGH TO COME FROM SOCIALIST LIBERAL EUROPE WHERE CHURCH ATTENDANCE IS DOWN TO 5 % UNLIKE , 70 % IN AMERICA , SO I BELIVE THIS TO BE A VICTORY AGAINST THIS SO CALLED GOD , TO THINK THAT CHRISITIANITY WILL EXIST IN 100 YEARS IS MORONIC AND UNTRUE PEOPLE WILL LOOK BACK AT THESE HORRIBLE BELIEFS AND BE THANKFUL WHEN THEY ARE EXTINGUASED FROM OUR LIVES .

IF THOSE CHRISITIANS HAD THEIR WAY THE EARTH WOULD STILL BE FLAT WITH HELL DOWN BELOW AND HEAVEN A LITTLE LEFT OF THE MOON .

To disagree with something is one thing, but to become slanderous and insulting is another! I do not believe much of what others do here, but I do give them the right to believe as they see fit. Insults and inuendoes only make you enemies... if you want to convert others to your thoughts you need to use tact and reason , you have started off on the wrong foot!



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dfilpus 
Posted: 18-Jul-2004, 06:22 PM
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QUOTE (Shadows @ 18-Jul-2004, 04:03 PM)
QUOTE (behan @ 18-Jul-2004, 11:24 AM)
Antireligious venom deleted

To disagree with something is one thing, but to become slanderous and insulting is another! I do not believe much of what others do here, but I do give them the right to believe as they see fit. Insults and inuendoes only make you enemies... if you want to convert others to your thoughts you need to use tact and reason , you have started off on the wrong foot!

Couldn't agree more.

This kind of behaviour is indicative of a lack of ability to argue coherently. Blindly attacking all religion is just as self-destructive as blindly attacking other religious beliefs because of belief in "The One True Faith".

Banning the poster because of his behaviour is harsh, but would help keep the level of intelligent discussion high.


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reddrake79 
Posted: 18-Jul-2004, 11:40 PM
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Never saw that coming.

However, he makes a couple of assertions that simply aren't true, but many people have said basically the same thing but in a much more civilized way. If it weren't for religion, society would have crumbled into anarchy long ago. If anybody studies human societies you easily see that religion is what holds the society together. True, wars have been faught over religion but I think it is safe to say that those people who started the wars did so for more reasons than just religion and simply used religion to get the popularity vote. smile.gif

Do you know who kept most of the ancient literature safe through the middle ages? (such as beowulf) Monks. If it weren't for John Smith and his belief in biblical principles then the first settlers would not have survived. The puritan work ethic which let the first settlers make somthing out of a wilderness is found in the Bible.

I personaly know many people who hold Doctoral degrees in various fields of study that believe the Bible. there goes the whole IQ argument.

Actually people's belief in the bible did more for pioneering science than anything else. Most ministers were also scientists. Many of the scientists we studied in freshman science (be it college or highschool) believed the Bible. Did you know the Bible refers to the world as an orb (a sphere) long before science officially discovered it? I believe it is in the book of Job. We have the Bible to thank for the charts that tell us about the ocean's currents. A british admiral was lying sick in bed when his daughter red to him from the Bible and it talks about the "path's of the sea" He decided to study that when he got better. In the book of Job there are many referances to the physical properties of stars that science did not prove till much later (specifically about the pleides and the "bands of Orion") I could go on. I believe the bible to be accurate as do others and yet to hear a convincing (or well reasoned) argument against that position.

If the Bible is so innacurate then how has it survived over 4000 years of humans?
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SCShamrock 
Posted: 19-Jul-2004, 05:27 AM
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Had behan not put that post in all caps, it would still have had the same effect to me. It kind of reminded me of some of the movies that have vampires, or demonic posession as in The Exorcist. This behan, were he truly Satanic, would most certainly have some sort of documented, credible research to support his arguments. However, this post came across as simple hatred, backed by a lack of education. Thanks Macfive for responding so quickly to such blatent ugliness.

This post has been edited by SCShamrock on 19-Jul-2004, 05:29 AM


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drexcia 
Posted: 19-Jul-2004, 10:03 AM
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there is NO geographical evidence of a mass flood ,we did not come from adam and eve , the world was not created in 6 days , the world is older than stated in the bible , so dont start lecturing me on what the bible says and doesnt , the bible is porbably missing a page that states clearly : this book is fictous and all characters portrayed are not real persons any persons of these names is pure coincidence etc.
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Aragorn 
Posted: 19-Jul-2004, 12:25 PM
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Very interesting drexcia, I appreciate your opinion. For those of us who are searching and believe otherwise, I would recommend reading the Bible before making any comments on its validity or weather it is wrong. Many people have set out to prove it wrong and have failed. I do not believe theory...because it is only theory and is not a proven fact. The scientists theorize we came from monkeys so why is this not happening today???? They use archaic methods to determine the world is so old...I am not convinced it is. So do you believe anything that people of high status and scientific knowledge tell you? (Just a question, not a flame) I for one like to do alot of research before making any kind of final verdict. People will produce theories when they can not find a definate answer or they do find an answer but it is not to their liking, theories are just another way of saying opinion. Believe what you will for I am not here to antagonize or argue, we all have the ability to think and formulate our own opinions.

The real tragedy is the fact that many people think the Bible is fictional and is just made up of a bunch of stories about people and experiences. I think it is sad they think that way but there has to be some way to explain away such terrible things right? Well, the Bible is real and it is true.

Just my thoughts.....

This post has been edited by Aragorn on 19-Jul-2004, 04:36 PM


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birddog20002001 
Posted: 19-Jul-2004, 02:43 PM
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So drexia is your name Sean or Dick, I would like to inform you that you are not as clever as you think you are, use the same birthday 30 Jan 84, you sign up the day after your other account is banned and in a previous note Sean wrote he was a German with a Scottish grandparent and was living in Scotland and Dick is from Germany but spouts the same line of anger. Yes I know there are 84 million Germans but these coinciences are so unlikely as to be insulting to me and the other members here. So the next time don't be hateful, get a clue, and back up your arguements with references.

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