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Celtic Radio Community > Ireland > "Being" Irish Today


Posted by: j Padraig moore 18-Mar-2008, 10:15 AM
Maybe it's just me, but recently I have gotten the impression that Irish natives: those still living there or are expatriates, have a bit of impatience with us of Irish-heritage. I have read some comments and articles from the native-born, expressing a certain bit of frustration with us, claiming that we have this "romantic" sense of being Irish. Last week the New York Times had an article by Timothy Egan, regarding the Irish in Butte, Montana. Some of the comments from native-born Irish regarding "us" and our attitudes towards being Irish, were kind of disturbing.

For myself, I have always been extremely proud to be of Irish descent. My great grandfather came from Galway. My wife's grandfather (though she never knew him, being that he passed many decades ago) was an immigrant. So when I get the sense that the native-born give us a sneer and a snide remark, whether online or in person, kind of hurts, you know?

Am I alone in this? Is there a bit of blowback against us "starry-eyed Irish romantics"?

Posted by: dundee 18-Mar-2008, 01:14 PM
i only have a wee wee bit of the irish blood...
but i did wake up this morning wanting to be a pirate... queersome mood i am in...

i would disregard anything from the media (especially the new york times)... they just want to start a hoolie and get people to buy their paper... remember bad news is good news... be proud Padraid.note.gif thumbs_up.gif

Posted by: Madadh 18-Mar-2008, 01:19 PM
I have to agree, I am an Irish American 365 days a year. I enjoy the parades and walk in them when I can, but I am always proud of my heritage.

Posted by: maggiemahone1 19-Mar-2008, 08:56 AM
padraig, there's always someone out there to try to put a damper on things. Ignore them, you're the one who know's what's in your heart!

Posted by: oldraven 19-Mar-2008, 10:36 AM
This is my take on it. When I moved out west, at first it was all fun. Everything was new, and it was my first time in a big city. But that didn't last long. As time wore on, I got more and more homesick. And then nostalgic. No doubt the more I thought about home, the greener the fields seemed. Brooks were purer, rivers higher, and lakes bluer. And the people were so starkly contrasted that you would get this image in your head that everyone in my home province was a host or hostess, always with a pot on and always waiting to hear what you've been up to.

I bet the feeling was the same for so many immigrants, and as they recalled their life at 'home' to their kids and grand-kids, you can bet they got the buttered up version. The obsession with the culture with no personal modern experience of it would lend to an ideal Ireland/Scotland/England/etc. of your own creation. I know that in my home region, the Isles are celebrated for their vibrant tradition, not their morbidly boring modernness.

And I'm more than positive the people of the old world have some views of our cultures that are, to say the least, inaccurate.

Posted by: A Shrule Egan 19-Mar-2008, 08:25 PM
In my two trips to Ireland, I never received any kind of attitude towards me, as an American-Irish. I received hardy handshakes, huge smiles and the warmest welcomes. And that's from the moment I landed at Shannon and speaking with the Immigration Officer, who offered me my first of many, "A Yank has come home", to the day trips to little towns and asking directions. The Ireland you describe in that article, is not an Ireland that I have experienced at all.

When Aaediwen reads this thread, I'm sure he will back everything I have said. We have taken separate trips to the same areas of Ireland and the Irish are just wonderful to meet and they tend to have a love for Americans. Or maybe it's just a natural bonding.

I would have to say, that article was meant to stir the pot a bit.

Posted by: scotborn 20-Mar-2008, 01:57 PM
I can understand the feeling of native irish ho get pissed of with americans, australians, canadians etc claiming to be irish. the fact is that the irish do not consider themirish just because of their ancestors.

I know this being scottish and having lived in dublin with my ex(irish)girlfriend, I myself am scottish born and bred, my father is irish born and bred. I never and would never callmyself an irish scot as the term is slightly ridiculous. I have never grown up in ireland and been assimilated by its - culture, people, language, beliefs, sense of inward and outward perspective, ideology, political beliefs, social structure, etc etc etc. these are the things that makes someone scottish, irish or american.

as for ethnicity, there is no such thing as irish or scottish ethnicity the irish and scots are madeup of celts, scandanavian, iberian, anglo, norman, etc etc etc. if your ancestors werescottish or irish you have northern european ethnicity. We scots and irish are as mixed as any other northern europeans.

I also disagree with the concept that americans say they are 50% irish, have they ever had a dna test. ?americans who think they are irish americans probably have amajority of other foreign lines in their ethnicity. Lines that are even outwith europe.

I personally dont believe you have to be born in scotland to be scottish, nor do I believe that if your ancestors are scots, makes youscottish. I believe and I know many irish and scots will agree, that being brought up in ireland or scotland makes you scottish because that is the fundemental principle that shapes who you are

I wouldnt not take offense of someone says youare not irish or scottish, america has a distinct culture. and I am not talking of nationality

Posted by: dundee 20-Mar-2008, 03:16 PM
QUOTE (scotborn @ 20-Mar-2008, 02:57 PM)
I can understand the feeling of native irish ho get pissed of with americans, australians, canadians etc claiming to be irish. the fact is that the irish do not consider themirish just because of their ancestors.

I know this being scottish and having lived in dublin with my ex(irish)girlfriend, I myself am scottish born and bred, my father is irish born and bred. I never and would never callmyself an irish scot as the term is slightly ridiculous. I have never grown up in ireland and been assimilated by its - culture, people, language, beliefs, sense of inward and outward perspective, ideology, political beliefs, social structure, etc etc etc. these are the things that makes someone scottish, irish or american.

as for ethnicity, there is no such thing as irish or scottish ethnicity the irish and scots are madeup of celts, scandanavian, iberian, anglo, norman, etc etc etc. if your ancestors werescottish or irish you have northern european ethnicity. We scots and irish are as mixed as any other northern europeans.

I also disagree with the concept that americans say they are 50% irish, have they ever had a dna test. ?americans who think they are irish americans probably have amajority of other foreign lines in their ethnicity. Lines that are even outwith europe.

I personally dont believe you have to be born in scotland to be scottish, nor do I believe that if your ancestors are scots, makes youscottish. I believe and I know many irish and scots will agree, that being brought up in ireland or scotland makes you scottish because that is the fundemental principle that shapes who you are

I wouldnt not take offense of someone says youare not irish or scottish, america has a distinct culture. and I am not talking of nationality

they are merely talking about their heritage... where their parents were from...
america as you may know is a huge mosaic of many many different nationalities...
key word being nation... they identify with their national heritage ....

na·tion /ˈneɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ney-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own

Posted by: scotborn 20-Mar-2008, 04:28 PM
QUOTE (dundee @ 20-Mar-2008, 04:16 PM)
QUOTE (scotborn @ 20-Mar-2008, 02:57 PM)
I can understand the feeling of native irish ho get pissed of with americans, australians, canadians etc claiming to be irish. the fact is that the irish do not consider themirish just because of their ancestors.

I know this being scottish and having lived in dublin with my ex(irish)girlfriend, I myself am scottish born and bred, my father is irish born and bred. I never and would never callmyself an irish scot as the term is slightly ridiculous. I have never grown up in ireland and been assimilated by its - culture, people, language, beliefs, sense of inward and outward perspective, ideology, political beliefs, social structure, etc etc etc. these are the things that makes someone scottish, irish or american.

as for ethnicity, there is no such thing as irish or scottish ethnicity the irish and scots are madeup of celts, scandanavian, iberian, anglo, norman, etc etc etc. if your ancestors werescottish or irish you have northern european ethnicity. We scots and irish are as mixed as any other northern europeans.

I also disagree with the concept that americans say they are 50% irish, have they ever had a dna test. ?americans who think they are irish americans probably have amajority of other foreign lines in their ethnicity. Lines that are even outwith europe.

I personally dont believe you have to be born in scotland to be scottish, nor do I believe that if your ancestors are scots, makes youscottish. I believe and I know many irish and scots will agree, that being brought up in ireland or scotland makes you scottish because that is the fundemental principle that shapes who you are

I wouldnt not take offense of someone says youare not irish or scottish, america has a distinct culture. and I am not talking of nationality

they are merely talking about their heritage... where their parents were from...
america as you may know is a huge mosaic of many many different nationalities...
key word being nation... they identify with their national heritage ....

na·tion /ˈneɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ney-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own

I understand that there are americans who are proudoftheir heritage, I am proud ofmy irish heritage. but thats not what I am talking about. I am talking about americans who actually claim to be irish or scottish. AndI have to ask why you include a definition of nation. ?

americans regardless of their irish or scottish heritage are not associated with ireland or scotland. Nottomention the vast, vast majority of "irish" americans have many other blood lines eminating frommany other countries.

Posted by: dundee 20-Mar-2008, 06:20 PM
scotborn....

dont take this personally... it is not a dig....

but its and American thing you wouldnt understand.... thumbs_up.gif

Posted by: scotborn 21-Mar-2008, 05:31 AM
no problem dundee I cannot take offense at anyones opposing views, however you kind of proved my point. I wouldnt understand because Iam not american. Just as you could not understand the mentality of the scots or irish, because it is a scottish or irish thing.

Posted by: UlsterScotNutt 21-Mar-2008, 09:04 AM
And this is why this dialoque is important. From different views and perspectives and from unique mentalities we approach this Celtic discussion.

I am an American national of Irish descent of Scottish descent. I am not an Irish or Scottish national. Using the words Irish and Scottish to describe oneself needs to be taken in context and understood that way.
The term Scots Irish, Scotch Irish are duly accepted, historically accurate and very specific to a peoples . References upon request.
And of course to each his own for many, there are those that cover both extremes to identify themselves and who can claim what they want.
America is a founded nation populated by citizens of established nations and retitled Americans only in the very recent history of time. Indigenous peoples to this geography are another story entirely.
As for me, I can trace everyone of my ancestors back to 1690 so far, so I'm pretty sure from wence I came.

Posted by: scotborn 21-Mar-2008, 11:06 AM
I wouldliketopoint out that I was not refering to nationality inmyprevious post. nationality does not make one scottish. it only makes them a scottish national.

america is ayoung country, but this is irrelevant, it is a great country nonetheless andit has awealth and depth ofculture and uniqiness and itsinhabitants are americans.

Posted by: oldraven 22-Mar-2008, 08:52 AM
I get confused by you, Scotborn. You've got great points to make, and a lot of knowledge, but you still see America as a Nation, despite living in Canada.

Posted by: scotborn 22-Mar-2008, 10:39 AM
I dont live in canada oldraven, I live in glasgow, scotland. And when I ll go further about nationality to try clear up what I was trying to explain before.

My father as I have said before is irish bonr and raised, as a result I am eligable for citizenship and an irish passport, this would give make me an irish national. But it would not make me an irishman, it would mearly make me a scot with irish citizenship.

Posted by: Robert Phoenix 24-Mar-2008, 10:19 PM
Just my own input but the whole thing seems to be just a matter of technicalities. It would probably be better if most Americans-rather than saying they are Irish-Americans or Italian-Americans, etc which does technically imply a legal duel citizenship-could simply state they are Americans of Irish (or what ever nationality) descent. Some people may not even want to make that distinction or may not think it is that big of a deal. Some use their nationality as a good reason to have a holiday and get drunk-in our town that would be Italiano days which explains the german polka band providing the music.
Also I think we Americans are starting to get a bit bored with our own culture (I know I am) with the same stores, buildings, sporting events, etc in every town and seek to find something unique in the customs and traditions of our ancestors. It gives a sense of our own identity that seperates us from the bland world of shopping malls and Walmarts that make evey town in the U.S. look just like the one you just came from. May be we just need a new label for us who feel we have no identification with a land or culture but are so absorbed by another that any outsider would have a difficult time telling the difference. Something a bit better than "insert culture wannabes"

On the lighter side please see my tag line

Posted by: UlsterScotNutt 25-Mar-2008, 08:10 AM
QUOTE (Robert Phoenix @ 24-Mar-2008, 11:19 PM)

Also I think we Americans are starting to get a bit bored with our own culture (I know I am) with the same stores, buildings, sporting events, etc in every town and seek to find something unique in the customs and traditions of our ancestors. It gives a sense of our own identity that seperates us from the bland world of shopping malls and Walmarts that make evey town in the U.S. look just like the one you just came from. May be we just need a new label for us who feel we have no identification with a land or culture but are so absorbed by another that any outsider would have a difficult time telling the difference. Something a bit better than "insert culture wannabes"

On the lighter side please see my tag line

So true, I am not drawn to malls, chain restaurants, latest fads and really do not like the homogenized pop culture we are becoming.

With regards to being Irish or Scottish, you need to take it in context. Some folks like to live this " identity *". That it should tick other people off, or offend and irritate the actual peoples they emulate is sad. What does it take away from the actual peoples? Is it because they are usurpers? Where is the resentment coming from? I didn't read the article that started this thread but wonder at the cause of the "pissed off'edness".

I guess my viewpoint comes from the fact that anyone can be an American in the USA. I guess you really can't be "Irish or Scottish" just by moving there.

*Identity, and then were are they getting their definition of the identity they choose to emulate? Is it romanticised, is it current, is it historical, ethnic, national, fantasy?

Posted by: oldraven 25-Mar-2008, 08:42 AM
Oops. I had you confused with another new member who moved here when they were a child, from Scotland. My mistake.

Posted by: UlsterScotNutt 26-Mar-2008, 12:31 PM
Ok, read the article http://egan.blogs.nytimes.com/ and the first 102 comments.

No big deal, Just goes to show there are all kinds of people in Ireland and the US.

Though I would add , Stay in school, pay attention to your studies and learn your history. For everything comes from something.

All opinions are based on your knowledge, so be careful when you show your ignorance.

Posted by: scotborn 26-Mar-2008, 04:07 PM
are you refering tome ulsternutt. ?

Posted by: A Shrule Egan 26-Mar-2008, 05:58 PM
QUOTE (UlsterScotNutt @ 26-Mar-2008, 01:31 PM)
Ok, read the article http://egan.blogs.nytimes.com/ and the first 102 comments.

No big deal, Just goes to show there are all kinds of people in Ireland and the US.

Though I would add , Stay in school, pay attention to your studies and learn your history. For everything comes from something.

All opinions are based on your knowledge, so be careful when you show your ignorance.

Fred, I read that article and it's sad that the author (Tim Egan, no relation to me), didn't do his homework. If he truly knew about Irish history, he certainly would have known that the famine of 1845-1850, wasn't due to the blight of the potato. The potato happened to be the food staple for the irish but it was the forced genocide by the English that killed many Irish and gave the Irish a reason to leave their home land. Food was plenty in Ireland during that time but it was all confiscated by the English troops and sent back to England. Only those who were loyal to England, were allowed to have a reasonable life. England has tried to cover this up for years and has destroyed all records of it but the Irish have uncovered many documents to prove other wise.

Butte, Montana was just one of many hundreds of towns and cities that took advantage of the Irish. In the 1800s, the Irish were looked upon as the same level as black slaves. Even after the Civil War, The Irish and Blacks, competed for the same jobs. Hard work and very little pay. Eventually, the Irish joined together and created construction companies and many other industries that brought them wealth and respect.

As for the N.Y. Times article, I found it pretty much idle talk and very little imagination and research. Just a space filler.


Posted by: UlsterScotNutt 26-Mar-2008, 06:50 PM
QUOTE (scotborn @ 26-Mar-2008, 05:07 PM)
are you refering tome ulsternutt. ?

scotborn, heck no, you are one of the more informed and articulate of the group. I actually am not saying that to anyone in particlar but made more of a statement about what opinions are. I for one am very opinionated and am quite sure I show some ignorance on some subject matters. I'm actually not quite sure that ignorance is the word I want to convey. I want a more positive word to explain the lack of knowledge. Its just truly uninformed opinions with no background or foundation that are irksome.

Posted by: UlsterScotNutt 26-Mar-2008, 08:13 PM
QUOTE (A Shrule Egan @ 26-Mar-2008, 06:58 PM)
QUOTE (UlsterScotNutt @ 26-Mar-2008, 01:31 PM)
Ok, read the article http://egan.blogs.nytimes.com/ and the first 102 comments.

No big deal, Just goes to show there are all kinds of people in Ireland and the US.

Though I would add , Stay in school, pay attention to your studies and learn your history. For everything comes from something.

All opinions are based on your knowledge, so be careful when you show your ignorance.

Fred, I read that article and it's sad that the author (Tim Egan, no relation to me), didn't do his homework. If he truly knew about Irish history, he certainly would have known that the famine of 1845-1850, wasn't due to the blight of the potato. The potato happened to be the food staple for the irish but it was the forced genocide by the English that killed many Irish and gave the Irish a reason to leave their home land. Food was plenty in Ireland during that time but it was all confiscated by the English troops and sent back to England. Only those who were loyal to England, were allowed to have a reasonable life. England has tried to cover this up for years and has destroyed all records of it but the Irish have uncovered many documents to prove other wise.

Butte, Montana was just one of many hundreds of towns and cities that took advantage of the Irish. In the 1800s, the Irish were looked upon as the same level as black slaves. Even after the Civil War, The Irish and Blacks, competed for the same jobs. Hard work and very little pay. Eventually, the Irish joined together and created construction companies and many other industries that brought them wealth and respect.

As for the N.Y. Times article, I found it pretty much idle talk and very little imagination and research. Just a space filler.

I think the article is far less interesting and telling than the comments

Posted by: scotborn 27-Mar-2008, 09:25 AM
QUOTE (UlsterScotNutt @ 26-Mar-2008, 07:50 PM)
scotborn, heck no, you are one of the more informed and articulate of the group. I actually am not saying that to anyone in particlar but made more of a statement about what opinions are. I for one am very opinionated and am quite sure I show some ignorance on some subject matters. I'm actually not quite sure that ignorance is the word I want to convey. I want a more positive word to explain the lack of knowledge. Its just truly uninformed opinions with no background or foundation that are irksome.

apologies ulster

Posted by: UlsterScotNutt 27-Mar-2008, 09:32 AM
QUOTE (scotborn @ 27-Mar-2008, 10:25 AM)
apologies ulster

scotborn, No need for an apology , you just asked a question. It is me who apologizes for leaving my comments too vaque and ill directed.

UlsterScotNutt

Posted by: UlsterScotNutt 27-Mar-2008, 09:46 AM
QUOTE (UlsterScotNutt @ 26-Mar-2008, 09:13 PM)
QUOTE (A Shrule Egan @ 26-Mar-2008, 06:58 PM)
QUOTE (UlsterScotNutt @ 26-Mar-2008, 01:31 PM)
Ok, read the article http://egan.blogs.nytimes.com/ and the first 102 comments.

No big deal, Just goes to show there are all kinds of people in Ireland and the US.

Though I would add , Stay in school, pay attention to your studies and learn your history. For everything comes from something.

All opinions are based on your knowledge, so be careful when you show your ignorance.

Fred, I read that article and it's sad that the author (Tim Egan, no relation to me), didn't do his homework. If he truly knew about Irish history, he certainly would have known that the famine of 1845-1850, wasn't due to the blight of the potato. The potato happened to be the food staple for the irish but it was the forced genocide by the English that killed many Irish and gave the Irish a reason to leave their home land. Food was plenty in Ireland during that time but it was all confiscated by the English troops and sent back to England. Only those who were loyal to England, were allowed to have a reasonable life. England has tried to cover this up for years and has destroyed all records of it but the Irish have uncovered many documents to prove other wise.

Butte, Montana was just one of many hundreds of towns and cities that took advantage of the Irish. In the 1800s, the Irish were looked upon as the same level as black slaves. Even after the Civil War, The Irish and Blacks, competed for the same jobs. Hard work and very little pay. Eventually, the Irish joined together and created construction companies and many other industries that brought them wealth and respect.

As for the N.Y. Times article, I found it pretty much idle talk and very little imagination and research. Just a space filler.

I think the article is far less interesting and telling than the comments

A Shrule Egan, I didn't mean to give such a short response to your comments, for they deserved more from me.
You are absolutely right about the history behind the popular culture we hear and read about and the starvation of millions being a manmade occurence.
My "no big deal" comment is really directed to the article in that it is filler with sentimentalities and is not a great discertation. It touches some softly and others its more of an irritation. I did read the first 102 comments and some are well said and others less on both camps.
We all come from different perspectives and relate differently to this article.
Thanks for listening.
UlsterScotNutt

Posted by: oldraven 27-Mar-2008, 10:17 AM
QUOTE (UlsterScotNutt @ 27-Mar-2008, 08:32 AM)
scotborn, No need for an apology , you just asked a question. It is me who apologizes for leaving my comments too vaque and ill directed.

UlsterScotNutt

A good way to avoid that would be to point out these ignorant comments. wink.gif "Some people in this room are wrong on a few counts." only serves to make people wonder what the heck you're talking about, and allows the ignorance to continue. In the Politics Forum, if you call someone out, call them out all the way. thumbs_up.gif If someone is wrong, tell them the difference, or they'll just keep on spreading the untruths. And yes, if it's me, I want to know. I've been off my game for a few weeks in here.

Posted by: oldraven 27-Mar-2008, 11:09 AM
QUOTE (oldraven @ 27-Mar-2008, 09:17 AM)
In the Politics Forum, if you call someone out, call them out all the way.

Talk about being off my game. This is the World Showcase. I need a vacation. blink.gif

Posted by: UlsterScotNutt 27-Mar-2008, 11:57 AM
QUOTE (oldraven @ 27-Mar-2008, 12:09 PM)
Talk about being off my game. This is the World Showcase. I need a vacation. blink.gif

oldraven, regardless of forum , your point is well taken.

My point about opinions is we base them on our knowledge of the subject and they are colored with our relationship to that knowledge. A person may be missing a piece of information that may completely change their opinion and that person could very well be me..

Posted by: Lady of Avalon 28-Mar-2008, 05:48 PM
For me who don't know nothing about my background because I was adopted I find this topic quite fascinating.

Regardless of what you may all think about either being American this or Canadian that or whatever...all of us here in the north or you in the USA. We are all coming from different nationality like it or not.

So, in my humble opinion one cannot call him or herself American Irish or American Scottish anymore than here the Quebeckers who wants to be recognize as a distinct society just because they speak french??? In my eyes it is pretending to be someone that your not. We are all on borrowed lands here. We came and we took. We did not ask permission.

And talking about Irish heritage as nothing to do with being Irish today.

Hope you don't mind a lady's opinion.Thank you.LOA

Posted by: Camac 28-Mar-2008, 09:16 PM
LOA

I understand what you are trying to say but in some instances I disagree. The Quebecois want to be recognized as a seperate people not just because they speak French but because the vast majority of them can trace their families back to either Normandy or the Ilse de Paris. Also they think they have a raw deal staying in Canada because the rest of the country won't give in to their demands.

In my case I am a Scots-Canadian. I was born in Scotland of Scottish parents. My Mother a widow remarried to a Canadian who brought us to Canada in 1947 when I was 5. I have lived here for 60 years. By blood I am Scots by culture I'm Canadian and at times I am torn between the love of these two great Countries. You are right we all came from somewhere else and that includes the Native People. They did not originate here they to migrated from Asia across the Bering Land bridge between 20 and 40 thousand years ago.


Camac.

Posted by: YDNAR1B1 01-Apr-2008, 07:50 PM
Hi all,

I'm new to this forum. This is my first post. And of course here is my two cents' worth. I was born and raised in the USA. As a child I was taught that the blacks (African Americans) in this country were brought here as slaves against their will and that the Indians (Native Americans) were the true Americans and that the rest of us were immigrants. So to as a child I came to the conclusion that the blacks in this country were here by mistake, that they were really Africans that had their own country where everybody was black--I had often heard whites adults say that the blacks needed to go back to Africa where they came from. Likewise as a redheaded, light-complexioned child I felt that I was in this country by mistake, that there was another country out there somewhere named Ireland where everybody had red hair and an Irish temper, like me--other kids and many adults would tease me about my red hair and Irish Temper. I'm actually from Scottish descent.

If you would have asked me as a child if I were an American, I probably would have said "I think so." If you would have asked me if I were Scottish, I would have said "I think so." If you would have asked me if I were Irish, I would have said "Maybe, I have red hair don't I?"

In America I've found that either intentionally or unintentionally we feel compelled to segregate ourselves mentally or sometimes physically into ethnic groups. Even on job applications and censuses we're asked " are you African American, Native American, Asian" and so on.

Posted by: UlsterScotNutt 02-Apr-2008, 08:31 AM
QUOTE (YDNAR1B1 @ 01-Apr-2008, 08:50 PM)

In America I've found that either intentionally or unintentionally we feel compelled to segregate ourselves mentally or sometimes physically into ethnic groups. Even on job applications and censuses we're asked " are you African American, Native American, Asian" and so on.

YDNAR1B!, Hi, I would first like to welcome you to CelticRadio, a great place to be. beer_mug.gif note.gif thumbs_up.gif

A very good 2 cents I might add.

It is human nature to group ourselves to others of like. I think everyone searches for identity of some sort or another so to attach themselves to something greater than just themselves. The reasoning maybe for various thingsat various levels such as communal interest, protection, comfort etc and we all do this at different levels, familial, community, ethnic grouping, national, etc. Some of us do it to deeper levels than others and find a deeper attachment for their identities. For some it is a dangerous obsession and others it is a playful whim and some assume an identity to achieve a goal. We can see this from inner city gangs to Scottish clan associations to national jingoisim, from bad to good to extreme.

I believe it is illegal to ask ethnic, racial etc questions on a job application.
Census is another story entirely.

UlsterScotNutt

Posted by: Lady of Avalon 02-Apr-2008, 06:19 PM
QUOTE (UlsterScotNutt @ 02-Apr-2008, 10:31 AM)
QUOTE (YDNAR1B1 @ 01-Apr-2008, 08:50 PM)

In America I've found that either intentionally or unintentionally we feel compelled to segregate ourselves mentally or sometimes physically into ethnic groups.  Even on job applications and censuses we're asked " are you African American, Native American, Asian" and so on.

YDNAR1B!, Hi, I would first like to welcome you to CelticRadio, a great place to be. beer_mug.gif note.gif thumbs_up.gif

A very good 2 cents I might add.

It is human nature to group ourselves to others of like. I think everyone searches for identity of some sort or another so to attach themselves to something greater than just themselves. The reasoning maybe for various thingsat various levels such as communal interest, protection, comfort etc and we all do this at different levels, familial, community, ethnic grouping, national, etc. Some of us do it to deeper levels than others and find a deeper attachment for their identities. For some it is a dangerous obsession and others it is a playful whim and some assume an identity to achieve a goal. We can see this from inner city gangs to Scottish clan associations to national jingoisim, from bad to good to extreme.

I believe it is illegal to ask ethnic, racial etc questions on a job application.
Census is another story entirely.

UlsterScotNutt

Welcome to CR YDNSAR1B1 you've found the best place here.

Yes I agree with you too YDNAR1B1 and I think people like to be identify with their roots somehow. And correct me if I'm wrong but movies and romance about the Celts and their history and by trying to relive the past is one of the reason for that too. Everybody calls themselves celts because they associate it with the Irish or Scottish...a mistake in my eyes.

everyone searches for identity of some sort
I like your quote here Ulster because being an adopted child all my life I searched for an identity of some sort...which was only a familiar face. I hope I make sense here. smile.gif LOA

Posted by: YDNAR1B1 03-Apr-2008, 01:35 PM
Thanks for the welcome, UlterScotNutt and Lady of Avalon. I believe I have found a good place here.

The way I see it, when our Celtic ancestors immigrated to America and other countries, they didn't leave their culture at the shoreline and take on a new American persona. On the contrary, many of them moved to isolated farming and mining communities where their culture lived on for generations, so I believe that it is possible for us of the older generation to be American by birth but Celtic by culture. I know the old saying "birds of a feather flock together" was never more true than it is in my family: My grandparents and great grandparents bore names like McMurry, McDaniel, Ross, Barnett, Byars, McCool. All were either Scottish or from Scottish descent, except my maternal g-grandfather, Barnett, who was Scotch-Irish (his term, not mine)

UlterScotNutt, I believe you are right that it is now illegal to ask ethnic questions on various applications here in the USA, but I must confess that back when I was filling out applications that wasn't the case.

YDNAR1b1


Posted by: YDNAR1B1 03-Apr-2008, 01:51 PM
UlsterScotNutt, in my last post I should have addressed you as UlsterScotNutt, not UlterScotNutt--my mistake and my apologies.

YDNAR1B1

Posted by: UlsterScotNutt 03-Apr-2008, 03:01 PM
QUOTE (Lady of Avalon @ 02-Apr-2008, 07:19 PM)
everyone searches for identity of some sort
I like your quote here Ulster because being an adopted child all my life I searched for an identity of some sort...which was only a familiar face. I hope I make sense here. smile.gif LOA

My Lady, Please, I don't mean to presume, but I believe I know what you mean.
I was 18 when I had a son out of wedlock and he lives in Finland. I gave him up for adoption to his mother and her husband. I often wonder about him. He would be 33 years old now. I have a baby picture of him and a photo at about age 7. I would hope to meet him some day. He looks like me.

Posted by: UlsterScotNutt 03-Apr-2008, 03:15 PM
QUOTE (YDNAR1B1 @ 03-Apr-2008, 02:35 PM)
Thanks for the welcome, UlterScotNutt and Lady of Avalon. I believe I have found a good place here.

The way I see it, when our Celtic ancestors immigrated to America and other countries, they didn't leave their culture at the shoreline and take on a new American persona. On the contrary, many of them moved to isolated farming and mining communities where their culture lived on for generations, so I believe that it is possible for us of the older generation to be American by birth but Celtic by culture. I know the old saying "birds of a feather flock together" was never more true than it is in my family: My grandparents and great grandparents bore names like McMurry, McDaniel, Ross, Barnett, Byars, McCool. All were either Scottish or from Scottish descent, except my maternal g-grandfather, Barnett, who was Scotch-Irish (his term, not mine)

UlterScotNutt, I believe you are right that it is now illegal to ask ethnic questions on various applications here in the USA, but I must confess that back when I was filling out applications that wasn't the case.

YDNAR1b1

YDNAR1B1, No problem on the name, I have definetely be called worse laugh.gif

The Scotch_Irish are a distinct group.

All groups bring with them their identities and culture but they all modify and adapt their knowings and doings of the past and traditions to meet the new trials and tribulations of their new environment. Things change and they create something new based on the foundation they brought with them. Probably one of the biggest changes was the ability to settle and own land in America, something very very few of the settlers had back in the old country. Things were very different in the new world and new modes of operation were required to survive and succeed.
We are all creations of our past.

Posted by: YDNAR1B1 03-Apr-2008, 04:05 PM
"All groups bring with them their identities and culture but they all modify and adapt their knowings and doings of the past and traditions to meet the new trials and tribulations of their new environment. Things change and they create something new based on the foundation they brought with them. Probably one of the biggest changes was the ability to settle and own land in America, something very very few of the settlers had back in the old country. Things were very different in the new world and new modes of operation were required to survive and succeed.
We are all creations of our past."

Hi, UlsterScotNutt

Point taken. Further, new modes of operation were required to survive and succeed even more so in the old country than in America, what with the civil wars, land grabs, changes in governments, and of kings, etc. That's why many immigrated to other countries to begin with, where they hoped they could cultivate their culture as they saw fit. In many ways they could cultivate their Celtic culture more so in America and other countries than they could in the old country, where laws were being passed to the point that it was almost illegal to be Celtic.

YDNAR1B1

Posted by: Lady of Avalon 03-Apr-2008, 04:56 PM
QUOTE (UlsterScotNutt @ 03-Apr-2008, 05:01 PM)
QUOTE (Lady of Avalon @ 02-Apr-2008, 07:19 PM)
everyone searches for identity of some sort
I like your quote here Ulster because being an adopted child all my life I searched for an identity of some sort...which was only a familiar face. I hope I make sense here.  smile.gif LOA

My Lady, Please, I don't mean to presume, but I believe I know what you mean.
I was 18 when I had a son out of wedlock and he lives in Finland. I gave him up for adoption to his mother and her husband. I often wonder about him. He would be 33 years old now. I have a baby picture of him and a photo at about age 7. I would hope to meet him some day. He looks like me.

Dear Ulster I wish with all my heart that for you and your son meet some day even if nothing comes out of it after at least he'll know his flesh and blood father and a part of his roots and you'll know your son and that is "identity".I really do.
There has been an emptyness in my heart all my life even though I am surrounded by a loving family and a loving husband. smile.gif LOA

Posted by: UlsterScotNutt 04-Apr-2008, 08:33 AM
QUOTE (Lady of Avalon @ 03-Apr-2008, 05:56 PM)
QUOTE (UlsterScotNutt @ 03-Apr-2008, 05:01 PM)
QUOTE (Lady of Avalon @ 02-Apr-2008, 07:19 PM)
everyone searches for identity of some sort
I like your quote here Ulster because being an adopted child all my life I searched for an identity of some sort...which was only a familiar face. I hope I make sense here.  smile.gif LOA

My Lady, Please, I don't mean to presume, but I believe I know what you mean.
I was 18 when I had a son out of wedlock and he lives in Finland. I gave him up for adoption to his mother and her husband. I often wonder about him. He would be 33 years old now. I have a baby picture of him and a photo at about age 7. I would hope to meet him some day. He looks like me.

Dear Ulster I wish with all my heart that for you and your son meet some day even if nothing comes out of it after at least he'll know his flesh and blood father and a part of his roots and you'll know your son and that is "identity".I really do.
There has been an emptyness in my heart all my life even though I am surrounded by a loving family and a loving husband. smile.gif LOA

My Lady, My wife says I will get a knock on the door and a punch in the nose!! laugh.gif I would lovingly take it!!!!!

Piglet sidled up to Pooh from behind. "Pooh!" he whispered. "Yes, Piglet?" "Nothing," said Piglet, taking Pooh's paw. "I just wanted to be sure of you." ~A.A. Milne


Someone remembers, someone cares;
Your name is whispered in someone’s prayers.
~Author Unknown

Posted by: Lady of Avalon 06-Apr-2008, 02:41 PM
QUOTE (UlsterScotNutt @ 04-Apr-2008, 10:33 AM)

Someone remembers, someone cares;
Your name is whispered in someone’s prayers.
~Author Unknown

Well at least you'd see who and what he's become.

As for this last part...I'm not so sure...I just don't think that my name was ever in someone's prayers....LOA

Posted by: UlsterScotNutt 07-Apr-2008, 10:08 AM
QUOTE (Lady of Avalon @ 06-Apr-2008, 03:41 PM)
QUOTE (UlsterScotNutt @ 04-Apr-2008, 10:33 AM)

Someone remembers, someone cares;
Your name is whispered in someone’s prayers.
~Author Unknown

Well at least you'd see who and what he's become.

As for this last part...I'm not so sure...I just don't think that my name was ever in someone's prayers....LOA

My Lady,

Well, you are in my prayers. smile.gif

UlsterScotNutt.

Posted by: Lady of Avalon 07-Apr-2008, 06:00 PM
QUOTE (UlsterScotNutt @ 07-Apr-2008, 12:08 PM)

My Lady,

          Well, you are in my prayers. smile.gif

UlsterScotNutt.

Ulster what a gentleman you are,

As for being irish today. I don't know if I am of irish blood somewhere or scottish for that matter because I'll tell you this.

Since childhood even though I'm from a french speaking family and name when I was young I was more comfortable with the english language.Even though I did not speak nor understood it. I would watch television in english all the time and my mom would get mad at me because nobody including me understood anything.

At 9 years old I told my mom that I would marry a english speaking man and have no children, she laughed...to whom do you think I'm married today (my first love) and on top of that have no children...

Today when I chat with my mom she always say to me that maybe that there is after all a bit of irish or english or scottish in me because I was always drawn by that culture somehow when I was young and could not understand why.

Maybe it's all wishfull thinking.smile.gif LOA

Posted by: UlsterScotNutt 08-Apr-2008, 07:21 AM
QUOTE (Lady of Avalon @ 07-Apr-2008, 07:00 PM)

Maybe it's all wishfull thinking.smile.gif LOA

My Lady,
There are things with in us that make us who we are and there is no understanding why they are there, but they are.

“It seems to me we can never give up longing and wishing while we are thoroughly alive. There are certain things we feel to be beautiful and good, and we must hunger after them.”
George Eliot, (English Victorian Novelist. Pseudonym of Mary Ann Evans, 1819-1880)


Posted by: Lady of Avalon 08-Apr-2008, 05:08 PM
QUOTE (UlsterScotNutt @ 08-Apr-2008, 09:21 AM)
QUOTE (Lady of Avalon @ 07-Apr-2008, 07:00 PM)

Maybe it's all wishfull thinking.smile.gif LOA

My Lady,
There are things with in us that make us who we are and there is no understanding why they are there, but they are.

“It seems to me we can never give up longing and wishing while we are thoroughly alive. There are certain things we feel to be beautiful and good, and we must hunger after them.”
George Eliot, (English Victorian Novelist. Pseudonym of Mary Ann Evans, 1819-1880)

Dear Ulster,
A gentleman and a philosopher.

Yes,"never give up longing and wishing while we are thoroughly alive" very wise indeed.
But even when alive one can sometimes give up some foolish fancy dreams.
I know I did in some way.
Ulster, if you don't mind my asking,would you honor me with your friendship? smile.gif LOA

Posted by: UlsterScotNutt 09-Apr-2008, 04:23 PM
QUOTE (Lady of Avalon @ 08-Apr-2008, 06:08 PM)
QUOTE (UlsterScotNutt @ 08-Apr-2008, 09:21 AM)
QUOTE (Lady of Avalon @ 07-Apr-2008, 07:00 PM)

Maybe it's all wishfull thinking.smile.gif LOA

My Lady,
There are things with in us that make us who we are and there is no understanding why they are there, but they are.

“It seems to me we can never give up longing and wishing while we are thoroughly alive. There are certain things we feel to be beautiful and good, and we must hunger after them.”
George Eliot, (English Victorian Novelist. Pseudonym of Mary Ann Evans, 1819-1880)

Dear Ulster,
A gentleman and a philosopher.

Yes,"never give up longing and wishing while we are thoroughly alive" very wise indeed.
But even when alive one can sometimes give up some foolish fancy dreams.
I know I did in some way.
Ulster, if you don't mind my asking,would you honor me with your friendship? smile.gif LOA

My Lady of Avalon,

You hold me in too high esteem hug.gif .

I am honored that you would consider me your friend. Not only don't I mind but I am very appreciative and humbled by your kind gesture.

I look forward to our conversations in friendship.

UlsterScotNutt


"A red-crossed knight forever kneeled
To a lady in his shield,
That sparkled on the yellow field,
Beside remote Shalott"

The Lady of Shalott by Alfred, Lord Tennyson (1809-1892)

Posted by: Lady of Avalon 09-Apr-2008, 05:13 PM
Thank you dear Ulster,

I've put up your name as my friend.You know I've read many of your posts and find that you write your ideas in a clear an intelligent way and respect for others point of view.This is why I asked your friendship sir.
I have always had people in high esteem especially the ones who make sense either when they write or speak.The only ones that I don't care much are the ones who takes pleasure in insulting others intelligence.And will look forward to our conversations in friendship as well.

Now you must tell me from what book you write all these beautiful quotations.

The Lady of Shalott, I should try and get reacquainted with this wonderful story. smile.gif LOA

Posted by: UlsterScotNutt 10-Apr-2008, 09:26 AM
I think respect is very very important and I try to be respectful as best I can.
I also know that there are many wiser, smarter, wittier, clever, kinder, gentler, authentic people out there.
Kindness and consideration is so inexpensive and easy to give and translates so well into action.
I like to read and many things in life have been said before far better than I could ever hope to say or express myself. I search for quotes and proverbs in books , magazines, and the internet is a great resource right at hand. Some of my favorite books for quotes are The Bridge of Stars, 365 Prayers, Blessings and Meditations From Around The World, Sonnets From The Portuguese, Bits and Pieces, The Magazine That Motivates The World.
Many members of this forum have wonderful quotes and proverbs as their signatures.

Posted by: Lady of Avalon 10-Apr-2008, 05:10 PM
QUOTE (UlsterScotNutt @ 10-Apr-2008, 11:26 AM)
I think respect is very very important and I try to be respectful as best I can.

Kindness and consideration is so inexpensive and easy to give and translates so well into action.

True indeed.
Sadly these values are practically disapearring slowly.

Anecdote here about respect.
I've send via e-mail to an acquainttance of mine who did not understand the meaning of the word respect at all.
I've send it in french and english hopefully the one in question knows how to read at least one language!!! smile.gif LOA

Posted by: j Padraig moore 27-May-2008, 11:14 AM
Found this in the New York Times. Good article.

http://travel.nytimes.com/2008/05/18/travel/18ireland.html?pagewanted=1

Posted by: glaswegian 02-May-2009, 10:12 AM
Comment Deleted by stevenpd

Inappropriate post.

20090504_1635

Posted by: j Padraig moore 04-May-2009, 11:45 AM
Quote deleted by stevenpd: Inappropriate Post

20090504_1635

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