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j Padraig moore 
Posted: 18-Mar-2008, 11:15 AM
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Maybe it's just me, but recently I have gotten the impression that Irish natives: those still living there or are expatriates, have a bit of impatience with us of Irish-heritage. I have read some comments and articles from the native-born, expressing a certain bit of frustration with us, claiming that we have this "romantic" sense of being Irish. Last week the New York Times had an article by Timothy Egan, regarding the Irish in Butte, Montana. Some of the comments from native-born Irish regarding "us" and our attitudes towards being Irish, were kind of disturbing.

For myself, I have always been extremely proud to be of Irish descent. My great grandfather came from Galway. My wife's grandfather (though she never knew him, being that he passed many decades ago) was an immigrant. So when I get the sense that the native-born give us a sneer and a snide remark, whether online or in person, kind of hurts, you know?

Am I alone in this? Is there a bit of blowback against us "starry-eyed Irish romantics"?
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dundee 
Posted: 18-Mar-2008, 02:14 PM
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i only have a wee wee bit of the irish blood...
but i did wake up this morning wanting to be a pirate... queersome mood i am in...

i would disregard anything from the media (especially the new york times)... they just want to start a hoolie and get people to buy their paper... remember bad news is good news... be proud Padraid.note.gif thumbs_up.gif


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Madadh 
Posted: 18-Mar-2008, 02:19 PM
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I have to agree, I am an Irish American 365 days a year. I enjoy the parades and walk in them when I can, but I am always proud of my heritage.


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maggiemahone1 
Posted: 19-Mar-2008, 09:56 AM
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padraig, there's always someone out there to try to put a damper on things. Ignore them, you're the one who know's what's in your heart!
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oldraven 
Posted: 19-Mar-2008, 11:36 AM
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This is my take on it. When I moved out west, at first it was all fun. Everything was new, and it was my first time in a big city. But that didn't last long. As time wore on, I got more and more homesick. And then nostalgic. No doubt the more I thought about home, the greener the fields seemed. Brooks were purer, rivers higher, and lakes bluer. And the people were so starkly contrasted that you would get this image in your head that everyone in my home province was a host or hostess, always with a pot on and always waiting to hear what you've been up to.

I bet the feeling was the same for so many immigrants, and as they recalled their life at 'home' to their kids and grand-kids, you can bet they got the buttered up version. The obsession with the culture with no personal modern experience of it would lend to an ideal Ireland/Scotland/England/etc. of your own creation. I know that in my home region, the Isles are celebrated for their vibrant tradition, not their morbidly boring modernness.

And I'm more than positive the people of the old world have some views of our cultures that are, to say the least, inaccurate.


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AShruleEgan 
Posted: 19-Mar-2008, 09:25 PM
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In my two trips to Ireland, I never received any kind of attitude towards me, as an American-Irish. I received hardy handshakes, huge smiles and the warmest welcomes. And that's from the moment I landed at Shannon and speaking with the Immigration Officer, who offered me my first of many, "A Yank has come home", to the day trips to little towns and asking directions. The Ireland you describe in that article, is not an Ireland that I have experienced at all.

When Aaediwen reads this thread, I'm sure he will back everything I have said. We have taken separate trips to the same areas of Ireland and the Irish are just wonderful to meet and they tend to have a love for Americans. Or maybe it's just a natural bonding.

I would have to say, that article was meant to stir the pot a bit.
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scotborn 
Posted: 20-Mar-2008, 02:57 PM
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I can understand the feeling of native irish ho get pissed of with americans, australians, canadians etc claiming to be irish. the fact is that the irish do not consider themirish just because of their ancestors.

I know this being scottish and having lived in dublin with my ex(irish)girlfriend, I myself am scottish born and bred, my father is irish born and bred. I never and would never callmyself an irish scot as the term is slightly ridiculous. I have never grown up in ireland and been assimilated by its - culture, people, language, beliefs, sense of inward and outward perspective, ideology, political beliefs, social structure, etc etc etc. these are the things that makes someone scottish, irish or american.

as for ethnicity, there is no such thing as irish or scottish ethnicity the irish and scots are madeup of celts, scandanavian, iberian, anglo, norman, etc etc etc. if your ancestors werescottish or irish you have northern european ethnicity. We scots and irish are as mixed as any other northern europeans.

I also disagree with the concept that americans say they are 50% irish, have they ever had a dna test. ?americans who think they are irish americans probably have amajority of other foreign lines in their ethnicity. Lines that are even outwith europe.

I personally dont believe you have to be born in scotland to be scottish, nor do I believe that if your ancestors are scots, makes youscottish. I believe and I know many irish and scots will agree, that being brought up in ireland or scotland makes you scottish because that is the fundemental principle that shapes who you are

I wouldnt not take offense of someone says youare not irish or scottish, america has a distinct culture. and I am not talking of nationality


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dundee 
Posted: 20-Mar-2008, 04:16 PM
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QUOTE (scotborn @ 20-Mar-2008, 02:57 PM)
I can understand the feeling of native irish ho get pissed of with americans, australians, canadians etc claiming to be irish. the fact is that the irish do not consider themirish just because of their ancestors.

I know this being scottish and having lived in dublin with my ex(irish)girlfriend, I myself am scottish born and bred, my father is irish born and bred. I never and would never callmyself an irish scot as the term is slightly ridiculous. I have never grown up in ireland and been assimilated by its - culture, people, language, beliefs, sense of inward and outward perspective, ideology, political beliefs, social structure, etc etc etc. these are the things that makes someone scottish, irish or american.

as for ethnicity, there is no such thing as irish or scottish ethnicity the irish and scots are madeup of celts, scandanavian, iberian, anglo, norman, etc etc etc. if your ancestors werescottish or irish you have northern european ethnicity. We scots and irish are as mixed as any other northern europeans.

I also disagree with the concept that americans say they are 50% irish, have they ever had a dna test. ?americans who think they are irish americans probably have amajority of other foreign lines in their ethnicity. Lines that are even outwith europe.

I personally dont believe you have to be born in scotland to be scottish, nor do I believe that if your ancestors are scots, makes youscottish. I believe and I know many irish and scots will agree, that being brought up in ireland or scotland makes you scottish because that is the fundemental principle that shapes who you are

I wouldnt not take offense of someone says youare not irish or scottish, america has a distinct culture. and I am not talking of nationality

they are merely talking about their heritage... where their parents were from...
america as you may know is a huge mosaic of many many different nationalities...
key word being nation... they identify with their national heritage ....

na·tion /ˈneɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ney-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own
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scotborn 
Posted: 20-Mar-2008, 05:28 PM
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QUOTE (dundee @ 20-Mar-2008, 04:16 PM)
QUOTE (scotborn @ 20-Mar-2008, 02:57 PM)
I can understand the feeling of native irish ho get pissed of with americans, australians, canadians etc claiming to be irish. the fact is that the irish do not consider themirish just because of their ancestors.

I know this being scottish and having lived in dublin with my ex(irish)girlfriend, I myself am scottish born and bred, my father is irish born and bred. I never and would never callmyself an irish scot as the term is slightly ridiculous. I have never grown up in ireland and been assimilated by its - culture, people, language, beliefs, sense of inward and outward perspective, ideology, political beliefs, social structure, etc etc etc. these are the things that makes someone scottish, irish or american.

as for ethnicity, there is no such thing as irish or scottish ethnicity the irish and scots are madeup of celts, scandanavian, iberian, anglo, norman, etc etc etc. if your ancestors werescottish or irish you have northern european ethnicity. We scots and irish are as mixed as any other northern europeans.

I also disagree with the concept that americans say they are 50% irish, have they ever had a dna test. ?americans who think they are irish americans probably have amajority of other foreign lines in their ethnicity. Lines that are even outwith europe.

I personally dont believe you have to be born in scotland to be scottish, nor do I believe that if your ancestors are scots, makes youscottish. I believe and I know many irish and scots will agree, that being brought up in ireland or scotland makes you scottish because that is the fundemental principle that shapes who you are

I wouldnt not take offense of someone says youare not irish or scottish, america has a distinct culture. and I am not talking of nationality

they are merely talking about their heritage... where their parents were from...
america as you may know is a huge mosaic of many many different nationalities...
key word being nation... they identify with their national heritage ....

na·tion /ˈneɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ney-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own

I understand that there are americans who are proudoftheir heritage, I am proud ofmy irish heritage. but thats not what I am talking about. I am talking about americans who actually claim to be irish or scottish. AndI have to ask why you include a definition of nation. ?

americans regardless of their irish or scottish heritage are not associated with ireland or scotland. Nottomention the vast, vast majority of "irish" americans have many other blood lines eminating frommany other countries.
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dundee 
Posted: 20-Mar-2008, 07:20 PM
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scotborn....

dont take this personally... it is not a dig....

but its and American thing you wouldnt understand.... thumbs_up.gif
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scotborn 
Posted: 21-Mar-2008, 06:31 AM
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no problem dundee I cannot take offense at anyones opposing views, however you kind of proved my point. I wouldnt understand because Iam not american. Just as you could not understand the mentality of the scots or irish, because it is a scottish or irish thing.
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UlsterScotNutt 
Posted: 21-Mar-2008, 10:04 AM
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And this is why this dialoque is important. From different views and perspectives and from unique mentalities we approach this Celtic discussion.

I am an American national of Irish descent of Scottish descent. I am not an Irish or Scottish national. Using the words Irish and Scottish to describe oneself needs to be taken in context and understood that way.
The term Scots Irish, Scotch Irish are duly accepted, historically accurate and very specific to a peoples . References upon request.
And of course to each his own for many, there are those that cover both extremes to identify themselves and who can claim what they want.
America is a founded nation populated by citizens of established nations and retitled Americans only in the very recent history of time. Indigenous peoples to this geography are another story entirely.
As for me, I can trace everyone of my ancestors back to 1690 so far, so I'm pretty sure from wence I came.


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Three things in human life are important: The first is to be kind. The second is to be kind. And the third is to be kind. Henry James (1843-1916) Writer

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scotborn 
Posted: 21-Mar-2008, 12:06 PM
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I wouldliketopoint out that I was not refering to nationality inmyprevious post. nationality does not make one scottish. it only makes them a scottish national.

america is ayoung country, but this is irrelevant, it is a great country nonetheless andit has awealth and depth ofculture and uniqiness and itsinhabitants are americans.
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oldraven 
Posted: 22-Mar-2008, 09:52 AM
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I get confused by you, Scotborn. You've got great points to make, and a lot of knowledge, but you still see America as a Nation, despite living in Canada.
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scotborn 
Posted: 22-Mar-2008, 11:39 AM
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I dont live in canada oldraven, I live in glasgow, scotland. And when I ll go further about nationality to try clear up what I was trying to explain before.

My father as I have said before is irish bonr and raised, as a result I am eligable for citizenship and an irish passport, this would give make me an irish national. But it would not make me an irishman, it would mearly make me a scot with irish citizenship.
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