Re-building Iraq, Guardian article of today

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,276...1104298,00.html

Yeah this is the type of BS I expect from Bush. Personally I support any country such as France that opposed the war. I am also saddened that Japan is going against the wishes of it's own people and sending what are suppose to be humanitarian troops to Iraq. How long do you think that will last.

reaching into his bag to extract his pot stirring stick

OK, why SHOULD the countries which opposed the war be allowed to profit from the reconstruction? Why shouldn't the countries which shouldered the burden of the war (with troops, intel, money, etc) not be allowed to have first crack at the rebuilding contracts? Why shouldn't the economies of the peoples whose countries backed the US effort be enriched from these contracts?

I am not saying that the war was the right thing to do. Personally, I wish that it had never happened. But it did. The US asked its allies for help. The French, Germans, Russians, and others, stood by their convictions and protested the war, refusing to sanction the act. Great. Right on! More power to them!

But then to whine that they aren't being economically cut into the game in reconstructing Iraq is a bit disingenuous, IMHO. If you are going to stand on your convictions, then sometimes you are going to have to pay for the decision; sometimes monetarily, sometimes in the court of public opinion. To use a poker analogy, don't ask to be dealt into a hand that you have already decided to sit out on, just because the highest hand is a pair of threes.

Is the Bush administration ( ) right in only allowing allies to participate in the reconstruction? Yep. History shows, to the winners go the spoils.

wiping off his stick, and placing it back in his bag

Just my tuppence.

Andy

that's what angers me about that snubbery: it shouldn't be about the profits! how faster that country gets rebuilt the better.

but anyway: I find it a bit bad when the US want and want things from us but give nothing in return. I was with the German Government through out this, with France as well.

I mean what happened is that people suddenly started ranting about "Who is not with us is against us" and that is something that makes me quite mad....

Ah, but AD, money is what makes the world go round. Mankind has tried numerous times to establish communities where money and profit wasn't the paramount concern, and they all failed. You just can't fight human nature. Depressing? Yes, but realistic.

I'm not quite following this line of reasoning here. The US is the force that kept Europe from becoming a huge communist playground during the Cold War. Do you honestly believe that European forces alone could have withstood a Soviet assault?. The US was the driving force that defeated fascism and National Socialism in the 1940's. The US developed the Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe after WWII (which the US didn't start) and then funded the Plan. Don't forget the Berlin Airlift, funded by the US. The US currently spends billions and billions on foreign aid and international development, and still the cries come that it is not enough. I am sorry, but if that argument is going to be made, what has Europe done for the US lately?

I just can't buy this argument. If the French and German governments don't want to back the US on its foreign policy decisions, that is their prerogative. But they shouldn't become irate at the US because we asked for their assistance. And even though they refused to back the US during the war, none of them were placed on the State Department's list of supporters of terrorism. We have enjoined no trade embargoes against them. Really, they have seen no reprecussions except for renaming french fries and not getting to bid on the rebuilding contracts. C'est la vie. C'est la guerre.

Just my tuppence.

Andy

Before I even begin bare in mind my brain is only half working today as it's fried. Been trying to put the finishing touches on a clients website that needs to be up by Monday so my eyes are like this

Anyways to answer only one point why should Bush have the right to deny any country the right to work for rebuilding Iraq? If Bush's goal is to get out of Iraq ASAP you would think he'd want all the help he could get. But whether a couintry helped attack Iraq or not should be irrelevent in accomplishing the goal of getting out ASAP. Also correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Bush a short while back trying to force countries like France to help shoulder the burder?

Correct that last statement if I am wrong as I said brain dead and fried tonight.

Believe me Scottish2, I can totally relate. 2 sick kids, a sick wife and me recovering from pneumonia, AND working 11-7 shift. Brain-fry is something I am intimately familiar with.

Well, to be perfectly honest, it doesn't look like there is going to be a dearth of bidders for the jobs. If the amount budgeted, something like $19B (I hear a 1040 form screaming at me even now ) is the amount to be awarded, then it really isn't going to boil down to how many people are working there, per se. The French and Germans aren't offering any money of their own, as I understand it (I could be wrong, but I haven't seen any reports of it), they are merely wanting to try to get the American money from the contracts. If they didn't support the war, why should their economies profit? If they want to help, let them offer monetary assistance through the UN, since they are so gung-ho on the efficacy of that organization.

I don't have a problem with the French, the Germans, the Russians or even the Chinese going into Iraq and helping to rebuild. I do have a big problem with anti-war countries trying to profit monetarily from the war. To me, that's rank hypocrisy. If a country is not willing to assist, either with boots on the ground, or otherwise, then they have no right to expect to profit from the war.

Get some rest, man. We can yak later!

Just my tuppence.

Andy

hehe Andy:

the trade "embargoes" (not quite embargoes but I refer to disadvantages) against the EU are still intact actually. Just read yourself into the "Steel" story. American Steel didn't sell right, so the current administration put enormous taxes on European & African steel to make builders buy American Steel. When the EU was going to do the same the "hue and cry" was raised that they could not do that and so on.. I'll try and find some info for you about that.

I am perfectly aware of the fact that money makes the world go round but I am idealist enough to be disgusted by it.
I also think I am a wee bit biased towards the German side, because I know what is going on atm and how bad the economic situation really is.

I wasn't actually reasoning above but only adding some things to certain paragraphs... I'm still not quite well (still sick).. so excuse me if I was a bit aprupt.

The argument with the cold war is in my eyes so far a difficult one because we all would not know what would have happened in the case of a Soviet strike. It is a quite outdated argument by now. But okay, let's take it as it is. If there would have been a cold war crisis things would have inevitably accumulated in Germany, simply because the frontier went through it. Whatever would have happened the US help wouldn't have helped Germany much.
Neither did the soviet union survive. Even in the 70s and 80s most of their material had been so far outdated that a strike against the US would have been a very very silly thing to do.

What I was referring to in the case of wanting but not giving is the behaviour in the last time. Since 9.11. in European eyes the US have been very much overreacting. In Europe terrorism was a very common thing especially in the 80s, I have witnessed a bomb blast which tore 8 people apart and needed years long of psychological help to actually get that one day back into my head. If I hear explosions I'm terrified. I can't help it, but sometimes even fireworks is too much for my nerves.
The fear of Terrorism belonged to the daily life of people. Ask those who worked in London in the High Time of Irish Terrorism there. I talked to alot of people in Northern Ireland, most of them my Boyfriends family (he is half irish). And they live in Portadown, one of the towns where there were alot of tensions between the Protestant faction and the Catholic one. It is making you somehow sad to see that huge fences around the churches, roadblocks ready to get up, the huge steel doors to the poorer catholic quarters.

But I'm getting off-topic. Germany is not a powerful military nation for one thing, being present in Afghanistan is almost overloading our forces already. Germany even in its present situation did give monetary help concerning the Afghanistan war as well. I have been in Germany during the run-up to the Iraq war (and it was soo easy to predict) and I myself was against it. Wrong time, wrong method.. in my personal view (I want to emphasize that my view must not mirror the public one).
Even so, the current German government did not want to go to this war. I watched the news alot in that time, read different newspapers etc etc, and some of the things being said are not things people can proud of. I think it was Ari Fleischer (I'm not sure, I will research on that matter) who said "Who is not with us is against us" and this actually hurt French as well as German feelings. Not wanting to take part in a war out of their eyes unnecessary as well as too costly doesn't mean that they are against the US?
I don't think so..

Well.. *rant rant rant* where was I?

Profit or not (although it plays that big role) should not hinder the US in trying to build up that nation as soon as possible. That should be the first thing to think of. That is isn't is what this current "problem" shows very good.

Sorry mate, didn't mean to make it this long =o

Well even the countries that wage war I personally feel don't have a right to profit from their waged war. Humans should not be profiting from suffering though this is not going to go away I know.

OK brains totally shot tonight just finished the site except a few last minor tweaks so going to end for the night UGH

hehe, hope you slept well and good =)

yeah went to sleep I guess about 11 and ended up getting up at 5:30 for some reason but yeah I just finished uploading her website so she's a happy camper.

http://www.belford-research.com/

Hey Guys (Scottish2, AD, and Andylucy),

I know I'm jumping in the middle here, but I have to agree with Andylucy on the point of the countries who were against the war being allowed to profit from the war. Now remember I HATE War!

Now I watched the news (All major networks) and read the newspapers about the controversy of Russia, Germany, and France not wanting to join or support the War in Iraq. But from what I read and heard on the news my understanding is that Russia and France protested so much because they didn't want their dealings with Sadam Hussien to come to the public's attention. It wasn't about a moral outrage against war, but a save-face cover-up.

Somehow with how much opposite news I have seen from the UK I don't place much credit on the US media. US media has become almost as corrupt axs the government.

Good example several years back a tax group I support (Not financially but morally) was having a tax sumit this was the second time they had done this. The first time around it was covered by C-Span. Well the second time around we all notified C-Span again at the proper address and at the proper time as their website indicated to notify them. And we had been tald earlier on due to the groups leader discussing the summit with a C-Span direct of some sorts that because of how popular the first summit was that most likely they would air the second one as well. Well the day came around for the summit and no C-Span was found anywhere around teh national Press Club in DC. Well of course the next day we all wrote and asked why. I know personally I had written them twice advising them of the summit as did the rest of the group. The response we got from C-Span was they did not know of the summit. I then forwarded to them the E-Mails I had sent their next reply was oh we never promised we would air it. I mean a total about face first they didn't know then their saying they never promised to air it. Caught in their own lies. And how often do you hear about the tax honesty movement in the US papers and news? Once in a rare blue moon when the media can make a joke of the movement. You never hear honest media about it. You never see the media say yeah you know what you're right and then turn to government and ask government that same question.

The media doesn't say anything that government has blacklisted. So I don't put much faith in a lot of the news coming out of the media unless it has a ring of truth. That almost sounds like a ploy to stir up the pot. Not your comments but the comments made by the media.

I agree all media is not honest or straightforward, but how can you put much stock in the European media. Their media is moved by their government's agenda's as well. One good example is Russia with their recent election of Putin.

One thing I've realized is the media is very liberal in their views and seem to only cover that slanted-side of the story. I've seen it time and time again with CBS, NBC, CNN, BBC and ABC and not to mention THE NEW YORK TIMES who twist or make up their stories to fit in with their editiorials.

We need a Libertarian Media Mogal to report the whole truth and nothing but. The only thing wrong with this is everybody views the world through their own filters of belifes and morals---we will probably never agree on what the "truth" exactly is.

Well at least as far as the UK have found a lot of their stories to be fairly honest at least when talking about other countries. Their stories seem to make more sense when the facts are all laid out. Not saying their all honest but at least they seem more so then US sorces.