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| Posted by: Camac 03-Aug-2008, 10:56 AM |
| At the suggestion of the Lady of Avalon (my Friend) I was wondering if there are any of my fellow posters who are interested in the History and Mythology (one must have one to have the other in Greek History) of the founders of Western Civilization, The Ancient Greeks from their origins until the final subjugation by Rome. Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady of Avalon 03-Aug-2008, 02:33 PM | ||
I'm very glad that we have one of our most historically educated fellow member starting a new topic here in the historical archives. Thanks Camac. Though I haven't read much about the origins of this great and complex civilization. The greeks are to be believed descendants of the hellenic tribes that migrated to the Balkan and then there was the Mycenean culture which I think was around the time of Homer and all these great philosophers who not only wrote great stories but were also historians. As for their mythology it's been so long since I've read anything about the subject, I've forgotten pretty much all of it. One thing I remember though is that all their Gods and what they represent is quite complex and sometimes hard to follow. Please tell us a bit of your knowledge about the beginning of this great civilization and their rich history that made us who and what we are today. LOA |
| Posted by: iolanda 03-Aug-2008, 03:41 PM |
| Hi Camac, I'm interested about this argoment and I would like to know something more on this ancient civilization o'er of that I'm studied in the past. Also I think the better way to learn and delve into, is "talking about" (Like Socrate said, in another form)and it can be a valid help or my son,too (if he decides remain in this school, he studies ancient greek language and civilization also; because he wants to change..  another problem).Anyway.. I think it's a very good idea.  Slàinte Iolanda |
| Posted by: Camac 03-Aug-2008, 03:49 PM | ||||
LOA. My lady makes it sound as though I was a professor of Greek History. I am not just an avid student of these great people.I will gladly share my knowledge with one and all on the subject and try not to sound like a college lecturer. One thing any student of Ancient Greece has to keep in mind that in order to understand them you must know and understand their Mythology. It would be like someone studying Christianity without know what it is based on,namely the Bible. So much of Greek Literature and History involves the Gods so one must know and understand the Pantheon or list of the Gods and what they do. A common mistake that a lot of people make is they use the Roman Name for the Gods. Zeus becomes Jupiter, Ares becomes Mars, and Aphrodite becomes Venus. Same Gods different Names. Camac |
| Posted by: Lady of Avalon 03-Aug-2008, 05:01 PM | ||
Well,my dear you're the one who said that you would've liked to be a history professor.  So here is the opportunity for you to share your knowledge with us.These topics are here not only to share and discuss and argue but also to learn. The Greeks use ink and paper to teach and learn: nowadays we use the computer and learn from around the world,something that they didn't have then.They had to travel for months even years to learn from other cultures. Like I said in my previous posts, their mythology is the base of their culture yes but at the same time quite complex, one: they had so many Gods, two:trying to remember all of what they represent. And yes the Romans had the same Gods with differents names but I guess they were copycats...  a little bit.The Pantheon is no small thing, I would like to know more about it. Was it a church of some kind or an institution? LOA |
| Posted by: mainopsman 03-Aug-2008, 05:11 PM |
| Camac and Lady of Avalon: Thank you for starting another interesting topic. A lot of us are interested in History, maybe not the same period but interested. I have had a love of History since I was in elememtary school. However most lower level education is very short on any indepth study of any one period. But, what we did have hooked me. As a result, I have studied History most of my life, much to the frustration of my History professors in college. I dearly loved to argue the facts with them. I am looking forward to more posts in this thread. Thank you again for keeping us interested. JIM |
| Posted by: Lady of Avalon 03-Aug-2008, 05:26 PM | ||
You are very welcome Jim, Hope that you'll come by from time to time and share with us the wonderful subject of History. Thanks, LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 03-Aug-2008, 05:50 PM | ||||
LOA. The Romans were perhaps the greatest Military and Engineers of their time but in art, philosophy, and religion they were copy-cats. The Pantheon is a Temple to all Gods built by the Roman Emperor Trajan but in the context I used it it means the Assembly of the Gods. ie: Greek ---------- Roman Zeus ------------ Jupiter Hera ------------- Juno Athena ---------- Minerva Apollo ----------- Apollo Hermes --------- Mercury Ares ------------- Mars Aphrodite ------- Venus Hephaestus ----- Vulcan Artemis---------- Diana These are just a few of the many both the Greeks and the Romans had. As I said through out Greek history there are many references to the Gods and they played an important part in the everyday lifes of these ancient people. My Lady I fear you have started a snowball rolling down hill getting larger with each turn. Camac. |
| Posted by: Camac 03-Aug-2008, 06:14 PM | ||
Hello Iolanda; I am most pleased that you are interested in this subject but before I go on, correct me if I misunderstood but the school your son attends is teaching him the Greek language and about their civilization and you said he wants to change. If I may, and I apologize if I interfere, if he has no interest in these subjects no one can force them on him. he must want to learn for himself. I myself was born lucky with an insatiable appetite for history and when I was young I saw the original movie Helen of Troy and was hooked. Perhaps my ancestors were of the original Keltoi that the Greeks mentioned. Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady of Avalon 03-Aug-2008, 06:54 PM | ||
You don't think to go "chicken" on me now do you?  Let's roll the ball as big as we can and have fun with it, n'est-ce pas?  Now, Ancient Greece has a lot to talk about,well then let's talk. We know that all of these Gods and Goddesses were part of their everyday lifes but why, was it beliefs or superstition? Would they go on with their lifes in accord of what a God or Goddess would lead them to do? Were they like the Egyptians, building temples upon temples for different Gods and Goddesses to give offerings? LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 03-Aug-2008, 07:18 PM | ||||
LOA; Basically the Greeks had two sets of Gods, The Olympians, who were the Supreme Gods, the Heavy Weights. To these they built Temples and offered daily sacrifice officiated over by the priest and augurs. The Greeks also had Household Gods such as Hestia, Goddess of the Hearth. Each household had a shrine to one of these minor Gods or Goddess. There were also the Muses, Furies, Naiads(Nymphs) and Satyrs. (Pan) They were important to the everyday life of the Greeks. It would be like Christians praying to God,Saints, and Angels. They Prayed to Demeter for a good harvest to Aesclapius for good health, To Posiedon for a safe sea journey or to prevent earthquakes. In times of plague they prayed to Apollo. When in love they would envoke Aphrodite to send Eros to shoot his arrow into their chosens' heart. They really were no different in their beliefs and supertitions than people are to-day. Camac. |
| Posted by: iolanda 04-Aug-2008, 04:33 AM | ||||
Good morning Camac, thank you very much for the education committee about my son. I really appreciate it because I' m so confused on this decision and I don't know exactly what to do in regards of this. Also, I see that he really doesn't has vague idea about what to choose in alternative. Any way,I'm not want to be boring, also it isn't the appropriate topic to talk about. If you pleased to give me an help in regards to, we can talk on "Family Matters". I will be very glad. You're right, you've to born lucky with your immense love for History, but we should be lucky, too, if you share your vast knowledge with us. Thank you for this, Camac. Slàinteiolanda |
| Posted by: Camac 04-Aug-2008, 06:19 AM |
| Iolanda; Good morning it is 08:20 and I am having my coffee. You are right this forum is on Greek History and we will stay focused on that. I am a firm believer in that all knowledge should be free and available to anyone interested. I will do my best to share what I have. Please remember that I am not an expert and will make mistakes . Camac. |
| Posted by: Camac 04-Aug-2008, 01:18 PM |
| The Greeks. There were people living in the Greek Peninsular before the Greek Speaking people arrived They have been named Pelasgians. Little is known about them mainly because the Greeks arrived in such great numbers that they completely submerged the original inhabitants. The Greeks are believed to originate in the upper northwest part of the Balkan Penisular and were mountain people. They migrated in two great waves. The first were the Ionians which settle in the southeast of Greece mainly Attica and from there spread out into the Aegean and finally Asia Minor. This first wave occured roughly 3 to 4 thousand years BCE. the second wave the Doric or Dorians came as conquerors sometime between 13 and 11 hundred BCE. They were also Greek speaking and where as the Ionians were dark haired the Doric were blonde. They settled mainly in what became the Peloponese or southwestern Greece. these two people would become the Ancient Greeks as we know them with the two best known as Athenians and Spartans. These are the people that laid the foundation for Western Civilization.Over the next 1100 years they would give the world, Art, Architecture, Astronomy,Literature, Theatre, Science, Medicine, Mathematics, Philosophy, Law and of course Democracy. The modern world owes much to these people. Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady of Avalon 04-Aug-2008, 02:10 PM | ||
Yes i agree with your statement that we owe them much. Even today we can see modern buidings built with similar architecture of the Parthenon of Greece. Some would say that Babylone is the cradle of civilization but I've always been sceptic about this theory. LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 04-Aug-2008, 02:34 PM |
| LOA; Civilization as we call it first arose in the Tigris/Euphrates Valley, The Fertile Crescent. Babylon was just one of many cities that rose to prominence and founded a civilization. There were older cities than Babylon such as Ur. The civilizations of the Valley spread outward by conquest and trade and were copied by those they came in contact with. Before Babylon there were the Sumerians, the Assyrians, and the Hittite, each in turn rose and fell to replaced by another. Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady of Avalon 04-Aug-2008, 06:25 PM |
| I have this huge book that's titled "Mythologica"...heavy book... And as I read some of the Greek Myths, one line that I read was interesting.The gods fo the Greeks are the most human of the gods of myth,but with powers that often destroyed the humans with whom they mixed. Another very interesting and this one made me wonder about the male gender and their "eternal" sense of power over women.It is believed by some that the mythological beheading of the Gorgon Medusa symbolizes the domination of patriarchal society. "Medusa" which means "sovereign female wisdom" had been silenced, and her powers had been brought under the control of the male order. Very intriguing and interesting at the same time, for one wonders from whence all the lines of the Bible really come from. LOA |
| Posted by: mainopsman 04-Aug-2008, 06:36 PM |
| One of the things that I have always found interesting was the Greek influence all throughout the B.C.E. Middle East. For example Greek was the language of commerce in Palestine, (the Holy Land area) Greek was a common language on the streets right along side of Aramaic. Latin was not as common as most people would think and Hebrew was the language of the cultured and priests in the Temple. The Greek culture moved along with the trade. Many of the early Christian converts were Greek, and their influence is still seen today in many of our prayers and forms of worship. Very often we see the Alpha ( A ) and Omega ( Ώ ) symbols in our churches. Their travels to Rome had a great influence on the early Roman Church. Our own form of government was based by Jefferson on both the Greek ancient republican democracies and those of the Iroquois nations. JIM |
| Posted by: Camac 04-Aug-2008, 07:29 PM |
| LOA & mainopsman; I would answer you both to-gether if you don't mind. Mainopsman the use of Greek as the language of commerce is due to two things, first the fact that most of the Eastern Mediterranean from the Bosphorus to the Nile was colonized in part by the Greeks. They traded with the interior and with all the islands including Cyprus and Crete. The second reason is that of Alexanders' invasion and conquest of the Persian Empire for not only was he a great conqueror but a great exporter of Greek Culture as he took it with him where ever he went. Under the Romans one was not really educated unless one spoke, read, and wrote Greek. Although my knowlege of Theological History is very limited the early Christian Church amongst the Gentiles was mainly in Greek cities of Asia Minor and in Greece itself. The Christian St. Paul was in reality Saul of Tarsus. Tarsus being a Greek city in modern day Turkey. LOA. Yes the Greeks preferred their Gods Human and gave them the personality, foibles, and vices of man. In Ancient Greece women were very subordinate to men. Even in Athens the Mother of Democracy they had no rights other than what their Husbands allowed them. As for Medussa I tend to agree with your description as the mere fact that for a man to look upon her he turned to stone. This definitely has an sexual undertone to it and most of the villians in Greek mythology were either women or men under a womans' control. Camac. |
| Posted by: Antwn 04-Aug-2008, 08:35 PM | ||
There are important exceptions to this, though few. One was ancient Sparta, a matrilineal society where women ruled not only the household but owned the property. Men lived apart from the age of 7 onwards, trained to be warriors in the agogai (spelling?) system, and upon reaching adulthood and accepted as citizens, still lived amongst themselves. Another ancient society, though not Greek but who allowed complete equality for women, were the Etruscans in what is now Tuscany Italy. The male dominated Athenians were actually appalled by their treatment of women who ate, conversed in mixed company and dined with their husbands. In Athens women could not vote and were relegated to domesticity exclusively. The details of Etruscan life are deduced mainly from their art. The ancient Greeks not only founded city states on what is now the Turkish coast, but also colonized west along the lower Italian boot and Sicily, founding what is now Naples and several other Italian cities before Rome developed. |
| Posted by: Camac 05-Aug-2008, 06:22 AM |
| Antwn; Your are right about Sparta but still the woman had no say in the governing of the city state except through influence. The Greeks also colonized Sicily and founded Marseille in France. They traded with Carthage and more than once were allied to them. The Greeks also traded in Spain and there is evidence that they passed through the Pillars of Herakles (Gibraltar) and traded up the west coast of Europe. The Greeks also had colonies on the Black Sea ie; the story of the Golden Fleece is said to have occurred in Georgia (Russia). Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady of Avalon 05-Aug-2008, 05:25 PM |
| As I continue to read that thousand pound book... There is one paragraph that describes very well Greek mythology for I discovered while reading thrue it that their Myths are extremely violent. The Fathers of the Gods: There is no all-powerfull, all wise, and totally good father god in Greek myth.Instead, the story of the gods of Olympus is a complicated tale of crime,conspiracy, mutilation, and murder. One can almost say that it's the perfect portrait of our world today.And one can also wonder if there is only one God or if there really is more then one super power playing us mortals....  LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 05-Aug-2008, 06:06 PM | ||
LOA; THE Gods of Olympus reflected the character of the world of the people who worshiped them. Camac |
| Posted by: Camac 06-Aug-2008, 07:18 PM |
| The Greeks; As previously mentioned there were two migration of Greeks roughly 1800 years apart the first the Ionians gave rise to the birth of Athens but more importantly in the early stage to Mycenae. the Myceanean Civilization was greatly influnced by an older more established one the Minoans of Crete. For a long time it was believed that the Myceaneans were a colony of the Minoans but archeological evidence shows that not to be the case. Mycenae developed separately and became the dominant state on mainland Greece around 1600 BCE. When the Island of Thera exploded in Volcanic eruption the Tsunami created rushed across the Aegean to devistate Crete and destroy Knossos the Minoan Capital severely weakening them. The Myceaneans took advantage of this and invaded overpowering and subjugating the Minoans. It was Mycenae that headed the Aechean Alliance that Homer talks of in his Epic The Illiad. Approximately 1200 BCE the Dorians (Doric) Greeks migrated into the Greek Penninsula and eventually settled in the area of the Peloponese subjugating the Mycenae. It is around this time that Greece falls into a Dark Age and did not emerge till around 800 BCE, the dawn of The Golden Age of Greece. |
| Posted by: Lady of Avalon 07-Aug-2008, 06:28 PM | ||||||
Antwn, Men and Christianity change all that, for them it was pagan.
Camac, This is the civilization that I mistook with the Myceanean in a previous posts when I said there was a civilization that was newly discovered and little was known about them except the fact that they were living lavishly and disapearred quite suddenly and by the ruins discovered as well. Archeologist discovered the ruins of a palace and what they uncovered was unlike they ever discovered by the size of it. I'll try and find more about this intriguing lost civilization. LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 08-Aug-2008, 06:40 AM |
| LOA; In the late 19th and early 20th century Sir Arthur Evans discovered and excavated the Minoan Civilization on Crete. Around the time the Greeks were migrating into the Greek Penninsula, 3000 BCE, The Minoans were developing their Civilization on Crete. We would have to open a new Forum in order to discuss them but for now I will only mention them in relation to the Mycenean Civilization and the effects on the Greeks. Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady of Avalon 09-Aug-2008, 04:56 AM |
| Social Structure Greece in the Archaic Period was made up from independent states, called Polis, or city state. The polis of Athens included about 2,500 sq kilometres of territory, but other Polis with smaller areas of 250 sq kilometres. Greek Society was mainly broken up between Free people and Slaves, who were owned by the free people. Slaves were used as servants and labourers, without any legal rights. Sometimes the slaves were prisoners of war or bought from foreign slave traders. Although many slaves lived closely with their owners, few were skilled craftsmen and even fewer were paid. As Athenian society evolved, free men were divided between Citizens and Metics. A citizen was born with Athenian parents and were the most powerful group, that could take part in the government of the Polis. After compulsory service in the army they were expected to be government officials and take part in Jury Service. A metic was of foreign birth that had migrated to Athens, to either trade or practice a craft. A metic had to pay taxes and sometimes required to serve in the army. However, they could never achieve full right s of a Citizen, neither could they own houses or land and were not allowed to speak in law courts. The social classes applied to men only, as women all took their social and legal status from their husband or their male partner. Women in ancient Greece were not permitted to take part in public life. This is a very instructive paragraph that talks about the lives of the Greeks and there is no wonder why they had such big armies and so many in goverment. As you read this the Greeks of today are still quite similar the Greeks of that time. Especially the last paragraph.No offense to anyone. LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 09-Aug-2008, 07:04 AM |
| LOA; The description you have posted refers mainly to the Athenians and the system they used. To fully understand what it was like to be a slave in Greek times look to the Spartans and their Helots. The Helots were originally the Messenians which the Spartans conquered and made slaves for all time. In modern time they could be equated to the Black Slave of the Southern US. with the exception that periotically the Spartans would cull then in order to keep them submissive killing them by the thousands. Some estimates put the Helot population at seven times that of the Spartans. Camac. PS. Go to Wikipedia and look up "Helots". |
| Posted by: Lady of Avalon 09-Aug-2008, 05:12 PM | ||
Gees, those were really hard days. I'll check this out on wilkipedia to learn more. Thanks Camac,  LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 10-Aug-2008, 07:58 AM |
| THE TROJAN WAR. Did it really happen? Yes. Archealogical excavation has shown that it did happen, in fact it happened twice. New finds and evidence shows that the Greeks (Myceaneans) and the Trojans went to war at least twice. The location of Troy at the entrance to the Hellespont ( modern day Dardenelles), which lead to the Black Sea, made it a strategically important city. Who controlled the Hellespont controlled the trade and Troy did just that. We know of the Trojan War through Homer, the Greek Poet and his Epics The Illiad and The Odysses which tells of the Great Heroes Achilles, Hector, Menelaus, Odysseus, Agamemnon, and the Trojan Horse. (This topic alone could be a Forum). Homer lived some 400 to 500 years after the events he wrote about. At the time of his writings Greece was emerging from its Dark Age and most of the story had been passed down orally with of course changes as it passed from generation to generation. The important thing to remember is that the story became a defining moment for the Greeks. It help set their culture and their religion. It was in a sense their Bible or Koran. It gave a common anchoring point around which the Greeks built their civilization. Camac. PS. The movie Troy is so far off base that the makers should hide their faces in shame. |
| Posted by: Lady of Avalon 10-Aug-2008, 11:00 AM |
| But I thought the scientist weren't even sure where Troy was in the first place that's why they are not sure if the war really happened or if it was a myth actually.... That's interesting...I would like to know more about The Trojan War and it's history... Thanks Camac. LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 10-Aug-2008, 11:31 AM |
| LOA; Troy is real and it is right where Homer said it was. In fact there are nine Troys all built upon the ruins of the one before. They date back to at least 3000 BCE and the last was built by the Romans about 140 BCE. Troy seven is the Legendary Troy of the Iliad. This is the city of Priam, Hector and Paris. If you wish we can discuss Troy and the War but it will distract us from the main topic of Ancient Greece. As I mentioned it could be a Forum unto itself. If any one is interested and has Google Earth you can go to Troy and see it the only trouble is that the closest you can get from an arial view is abouit 230 metres above. Troy was a very rich city as it profited from control of the entrance to the Helespont there by controlling the trade route. This made it a prime target for conquest and if Helen really existed she was just the excuse that the Myceneans needed to attack. The Myceneans were more interested in controlling the flow of trade into the Aegean from the Black Sea that they were in getting a woman back. No matter how beautifull she was reputed to be. The story of Jason and the Argonauts which took place earlier is all bout just that,Trade. The Golden Fleece could have just been a euphemism for wheat. Colchis the land where the Fleece was kept is modern day Georgia (European). Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady of Avalon 10-Aug-2008, 04:12 PM | ||
Thanks for the info. It doesn't matter if we discuss a bit of it since it is part of the history of Ancient Greece and since there was 7 Troy cities it must have had a certain impact on the Ancient Greek civilization somehow. Greece has a lot to offer in terms of history. And certainly we could discuss or learn from it for ages. LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 10-Aug-2008, 05:41 PM | ||
LOA; The impact of Troy on Greece would not have been that great as it would have been relegated mainly to trade. Trojan traders would have acted as a conduit perhaps for ideas from Asia Minor, Egypt and the Minoans as it was know to trade with these other civilizations. We know that Troy was influenced more by the Asian cultures than Greek. It was an ally of the Hittite and had dealings with the Sumerians,and Assyrians. We also know that during the Trojan War they called on their neighbours for aid in repelling the Greeks. Mainly Troy was seen as a threat by the Greeks for as I said it controlled the Helespont and any Greek ship wanting passage would have to pay a toll plus taxes on its cargoe. We know from the records that Myceneans raided other cities along the Asian coast of the Aegean and at some time fought a war against the Hittites. We also know that Myceneans mercenaries fought for the Hittites and quite possibly aided then in their battles with the Egyptians. I should point out before I close that the Greeks were not known by that name at this time. They were the Aecheans, or Daanans. The names Greeks or Hellens would come much later. Most of what occurred in Greece from 1200 BCE to 800 BCE is lost due a Dark Age. What was known was passed down orally and is not to reliable a source. Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady of Avalon 10-Aug-2008, 06:08 PM |
| So would you happened to know where the name "Greek" come from then? This is quite fascinating knowing that Greece knew a "Dark Age" since that civilization was much much more advance then other civilization in terms of knowledge. What happened? LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 10-Aug-2008, 06:17 PM | ||
LOA THE DORIANS Camac. |
| Posted by: Camac 11-Aug-2008, 06:43 AM | ||||
LOA; The name Greek comes from the Latin name of a tribe from the East coast of central Greece that established a colony in Italy some time around 800 BCE. The Latin speaking people of the area called them Graii. It ended up being applied to all the Greek speaking people (Graeco)and eventually became the English word Greek. To go off subject for just a moment. I have to thank you LOA for suggesting this topic it has gotten my brain back in gear after slowly idling for a long time. Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady of Avalon 11-Aug-2008, 07:01 AM |
| Why, I'm glad that you decide on writing your knowledge about history. Being off topic a bit and have fun in it is my motto.Nothing's wrong with that because to me even if we are learning through the forums and different topics.As I said before we are not at school and we certainly can add fun in our discussions. For my part since my father did not believe in school education I don't have a master degree or diploma of any kind, the bits and pieces of my knowledge of history,I learned from books and from the History Channel or Discovery Channel which are not much of reference. So, even if there is only just the two of us in these forums, all I have to say is that you write and I'll read and ask questions. Thank you my friend, LOA  |
| Posted by: Camac 11-Aug-2008, 07:54 AM |
| LOA; To get back on subject: When the Dorians migrated in to the Greek Pennisula around 1200 BCE it plunged Greece into a Dark Age and one of the inexplicable occurances was that the Greeks (Myceneans) stopped writing. At this time in their history they used a type of Cuniform writing much like the Phonecians, the Greek Alphabet would evolve towards the end of their Dark Age and was in use by the time Homer wrote his epics. It is believed that Homer was blind so he actually didn't write but dictated his stories. He took the accumulated oral traditional stories and compiled them into a written record of what was then Greek History. They have lasted over 2800 years. For centuries in modern history the Illiad and The Odyssey (The only stories of Homer that survived) were just that stories, fables and legends. It wasn't until the latter part of the 19th century that they were proven to be true with the discovery of Troy(1870), Mycenae, (Schliemann) and Minoan Knossos (Evans). Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady of Avalon 11-Aug-2008, 05:30 PM |
| I did not know what the word "Hoplite" meant. I search on Wikipedia and found this instructive paragraph about this piece of armour. Hoplite From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Re-creation of a 4th-3rd Century Hoplite.The word hoplite (Greek ὁπλίτης, hoplitēs) derives from hoplon (ὅπλον, plural hopla, ὅπλα) meaning an item of armour or equipment, thus 'hoplite' may approximate to 'armoured man'. Hoplites were the citizen-soldiers of the Ancient Greek City-states. They were primarily armed as spear-men and fought in a phalanx formation. Warfare in ancient Greece appears, for the most part, to have consisted of set-piece battles between independent city-states. The hoplite was an effective solution to this situation. A city-state could not afford a professional and/or standing army, so battles had to be fought by the citizens themselves. The tactics and techniques used in battle therefore had to be simple enough to be quickly mastered. Since the equipment was provided by the individual hoplite, it had to be affordable by an average citizen. The hoplite probably first appeared in the late seventh century BC. In the early Classical Period most battles appear to have primarily involved clashes of opposing phalanxes; tactics were simple and casualties relatively low. Towards the end of the classical period more sophistication seems to have occurred, culminating in the 'new model' army of the Ancient Macedonian Kingdom. Almost all the famous men of ancient Greece, including philosophers and playwrights, fought as hoplites.[1][2] The most well-known hoplites were the Spartans, who were trained from childhood in combat and warfare to become an exceptionally disciplined and superior fighting force. It must have been awfully hot under that piece of metal.No wonder these were formidable warriors,they were trained since they were boys.How times has changed. Thanks Camac,LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 11-Aug-2008, 05:35 PM |
| LOA; Actually HOPLON means Shield.. Thus the Hoplites were named for the Hoplon they carried. Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady of Avalon 11-Aug-2008, 05:44 PM |
| Yes I saw the design on another image that is more a shield then an armour actually. Is that the shield in question?Shown on the image? LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 11-Aug-2008, 06:13 PM | ||
LOA; Yes that is the Hoplon (Shield) The Spear is call a Doru, and the sword is Xiphos and his body armour was called Linothorax. Hoplites were classed as Heavy Infantry and until the advent of the Macedonian Phalanx armed with Sarissas (18 Foot long Spear) they were unstopable. Most Persian and Asian warriors were light infantry called Peltast. Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady of Avalon 14-Aug-2008, 05:58 PM |
| As I'm reading my huge book on Greek Myths I came across an interesting passage about their deities. And I must say that even though some would say that it is probably my imagination but there is a lot of similarities in their beliefs of their Gods and compare to Christians beliefs and dreams.Here some lines of this passage. The Age of Gold was the first age of the world,without hardship or toil for those who dwelt on Earth,and without crime.(Christians beliefs:Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden). The most recent age of the world,full of troubles and evils,is called the Age of Iron, but perhaps it would be better to call it the Second Age of Gold, for many of its troubles began when gold first tempted humankind to wickedness and war.(Christians beliefs:Abel & Cain,two brothers fighting to death) Through the Age of Gold,Silver & Bronze, Astraea, the goddess of justice, still remained on Earth, but when the Age of Iron began, she found she could stay no longer. Now she shines down from the sky as the constellation Virgo,the virgin,Astraea once carried a pair of scales with which she weighed up the rights and wrongs of any dispute.Now Astraea's scales shine close by Virgo,as the constellation of Libra.(Christians beliefs:one becomes a shining star after death to watch over the loved one still on Earth.) This is interesting to read something so similar to even todays religious beliefs. LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 14-Aug-2008, 06:18 PM |
| LOA; You will find a great many similarities between the old religions and Christianity. The Trinity is an Egyptian concept. Hell we took from the Nordic tribes. Christmas of course is the Winter Solstice Many of the old Eastern Religions made offerings of Bread and Wine. The famous do unto others saying is actually Bhuddist. It was not beneath the early Christian missionaries to adopt local myths and legends into their teaching. Camac. |
| Posted by: Camac 16-Aug-2008, 09:49 AM |
| LOA; 'Tis the weekend and as forewarned, "THE TROJAN WAR" Did it happen? Yes. When? Sometime between 1180 and 1200 BCE. Where? The Troad on the west Coast of Modern Day Turkey (Anatolia) at the entrance to the Dardanelles which lead to the Black sea. The Combatants: Troy and its' allies against an alliance of Aechean City States led by Mycenae. (At this point in History they were not called Greeks. That would come after the Dorian Invasion)) Did it last ten years? Unlikely, 3 to 5 years is more plausible. Were there a 1000 ships? Unlikely again 300 to 500 is a more plausible number. Was there a Helen, Achilles, Agamemnon, Hector, Paris or Priam? Very likely as the the story was passed on by oral tradition and these names would be diligently preserved. Was there a Trojan Horse? Possible but more possibly it was traitors inside the City who opened the Gates or the Horse symbolizes a seige tower which were in use at the time. Was Troy sacked, burned, and its people sold into slavery? Yes. This was common practice in the Bronze Age. Were the Gods involved? The people of the time thought so. Religion played an enormous part in their daily lives. Great warriors or Kings were not mere mortal but descended from the Gods. Plagues and Pestilence were punishment from the Gods. Was the War fought over Helen? Not really she was just the excuse the Aecheans needed to attack Troy. The root cause was Trade and the opportunity for Plunder. The Aecheans were the Vikings of their day. Is Hollywoods' account of the events accurate? Only in the sense that the War occurred and the names are correct. Hollywood shows the heroes wearing Plumed Corinthian Helmets when in fact the wore conical helmets made from Boars' teeth. The shields were not round but either figure eight or rectangular. The weapons and armour were Bronze with the Spear being the predominant weapon and the sword backup. Bronze swords of the day were notorious for breaking at the hilt. Some arrow heads were of Iron but iron was rare. The ships were undecked Penteconter of 50 oars not the sleek Triremes that are depicted. Chariots were used but only as a means of transport to and from the battle. Once at the fight the warrior dismounted to fight on foot while the chariot pulled back a safe distance waiting. With the exception of individual duels between Heroes the fighting was mainly a shoving match more on the lines of a street brawl and woe betide the ones that fell or tripped they were usually trampeled to death. In Homers' Iliad we see only a few months of the 9th year of the War. It is mainly concerned with the argument between Agamemnon and Achilles over a women Briesis but this alone was enought to spur people to look for Troy and in 1870 Schliemann, a German amateur archeologist and treasure hunter discovered the location of Troy. There are nine cities each built on the ruins of the previous. The Troy of the Illiad is number VII. Schliemann being mainly concerned with treasure was a very poor archeologist in that he destroyed more that he recovered making it extremely difficult if not impossible in some instances for the modern scientific research to be conducted. Schliemann also used the Iliad to find Mycenae and approched it in the same destructive way. How many countless treasures were destroyed , stolen or lost we will never know. Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady of Avalon 17-Aug-2008, 04:47 PM |
| So, in all sometimes what we see is not what really happened,especially in "movies" since what they really after is "romanticize" history, that's a fact. But by what you are describing in the way the war was fought and the army and what was it consisted even with what seem archaic in what is decribe in the "movie" it was a formidable army nonetheless and it must have been quite a site. As for Helen of Troy, isn't she a bit overated in all of this? I don't know much about her and her role in all of this except again what was depicted of her character on films. I have never read about her. I thought it only a myth. LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 17-Aug-2008, 05:11 PM | ||
LOA; Ah yes Helen "The Face that Launched a Thousand Ships" In the Iliad she is forced to marry the brother of Paris, Deiphobus, after Achilles son Neoptolemus kills Paris who had killed Achilles with the fatal arrow. Menelaus kills Deiphobus finds Helen and takes her back to Sparta to have her executed. He is still so enamoured with her that they rconcile and are told to live a long life to together and are buried at Spartan in the same tomb. No one knows for sure what happened as there is only fragments of other chronicles about the Trojan War such as the "Little Iliad" to try and get information from. In the late bronze age an Army of 7000 was considered huge and it is possible that the Aechean Army was close to that number maybe as high as 10,000-. The population of Troy at the time is calculated at 5 to 7 thousand total and it is reported that its army outnumbered the Aecheans. This was due to the large number of allies Troy had. |
| Posted by: Lady of Avalon 21-Aug-2008, 05:56 PM |
| One thing that I am always suspicious and find it hard to really believe is how can they (archeologists or historians) come up with numbers like that for armies that even then did not even know for sure what their enemies army size was? I have read that at that time, the sizes of armies were always or mostly exaggerated. It was always an estimation done by scouts that were sent to spy on the others's side and vice versa. As for the reality of that war, it is still under the debate of truth or myth. This is a passage stating about if the war really happend or if a myth.And it speaks of Schlieman's excavations of the site The Ancient Greeks thought the Trojan War was a historical event that had taken place in the 13th or 12th century BC, and believed that Troy was located in modern day Turkey near the Dardanelles. By modern times both the war and the city were widely believed to be non-historical. In 1870, however, the German archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann excavated a site in this area which he identified as Troy; this claim is now accepted by most scholars. Whether there is any historical reality behind the Trojan War is an open question. Many scholars believe that there is a historical core to the tale, though this may simply mean that the Homeric stories are a fusion of various tales of sieges and expeditions by Mycenaean Greeks during the Bronze Age. Those who believe that the stories of the Trojan War derive from a specific historical conflict usually date it to the 12th or 11th centuries BC, often preferring the dates given by Eratosthenes, 1194–1184 BC, which roughly corresponds with archaeological evidence of a catastrophic burning of Troy VII. LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 21-Aug-2008, 06:40 PM |
| LOA ; To estimate the size of the armies archeologist first determine the size of a city or encampment then estimate how many people could inhabit such a place . From the estimated size of the populace of a city they can then determine how many would have been capable of fighting as in those days most warriors were also citizens of their city. In a city of say 7000 it would have an average of 3000 capable of bearing arms. In 479 BCE at Plataea a united Greek force of 60,0000 Hoplites plus another possible 60,000 light troops met and defeated a far large Persian army. This Greek Army was the largest ever assembled, even Alexanders' army was never that size. The Spartans alone supplied 7 to 8 thousand Hoplites and the Athenians even more. In recent excavations at Troy (Troy VII is now numbered Troy VIi) they have found evidence that this city was destroyed in war as Bronze Age weapons and Iron Arrow heads, plus mounds of sling-stones,were found. Also there had been a massive fire and Troy was reported put to the torch. As to the stories being a compulation of different sagas brought together, I personally don't think so. The Archeological evidence points to there being A Trojan War. Camac. |
| Posted by: Camac 25-Oct-2008, 09:58 AM |
| 25/10/08 Of late I have been spending alot of time writing Poetry and my sharing of Historical knowledge has suffered greatly. If there are any on the forum still interested in Historical information I will gladly take up where it was left off. Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady-of-Avalon 25-Oct-2008, 10:11 AM |
| Well I am for one....please continue to post about this great civilization and it's history my friend...I'm looking forward to read what you have to say...though a bit busy since my return I want to read about it. Thank you LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 25-Oct-2008, 10:29 AM |
| LOA; For you my Friend and any others I will take up where I left off at the end of the Trojan war starting to- morrow as I too have some things to take care of to-day. Camac. |
| Posted by: Camac 26-Oct-2008, 10:31 AM |
| As promised; Within a century of the Trojan War the Myceanan Civilization collapsed probably as a result of the the Dorian Invasion or Migration into the Peloponesian Penninusla, south-west Greece,. Where the Dorians came from is up for conjecture. The name Dorian derives from the Greek meaning "woods people, hill people, or mountain people., or possibly spear people. Some suggest that they originated in the north-east part of the Balkans, ie. Macedonia, others say they originated in Asia Minor and migrated into Greece through Thrace. What is know is that they spoke a dialect of Greek and were war-like as their desecendants the Spartans can attest. Irregardless of where they came from their Invasion/Migration plunged Greece into a "Dark Age" that was to last five centuries. During this period the Greeks lost the ability to write. Under the Myceaneans writing was Linear B akin to the type the Minoans used but this was lost and no record other than Oral is available for the period. Around 700 BCE Greece emerge from this period into what was to become "The Golden Age" Art, Philosophy, Mathematics, Literature.City States, and the development of what became the modern day alphabet (from the Greek Alpha-Beta {A-B}) An interesting aside is that the Greek Alphabet does not run A-B-C but A-B-G.(more on the alphabet later) It was also at this time the Greeks became "Masters of Warfare" with the introduction of Heavy Infantry know as "HOPLITES". This term comes from the name given to the large circular shield carried, "HOPLON". It was at this time also that Homer is thought to have lived and put into writing the stories of the Illiad and Odyssey based on the Oral traditions handed down. The Golden Age gave rise to the City States, ATHENS, SPARTA, CORINTH, THEBES, amongst many. Of these Athens rose to the greatest prominence and gave civilation the first form of Democracy on which the modern day version is based. Perhaps though the most notable of these Cities was Sparta, thanks of course to Hollywood and the movies. |
| Posted by: Lady-of-Avalon 26-Oct-2008, 05:39 PM |
| So then at one point in history the Greeks lost a bit of their own history for during a long a very long period they lost the ability to write...how can this happened? At least they restart during the Golden Age as you state and from then on the Greek empire grew to an outstanding society of culture. Though it is sad that an entire civilization looses it's ability to write. That's what happened to the Egyptian civilization. If I could only have the time to read Homer's story, maybe in a near future one never know. Can't wait to read more.Thank you. LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 02-Nov-2008, 10:46 AM | ||
LOA; This happened mainly because writing was the purview of the Royal Bureaucracy which kept the records of the Royal Treasury in the form of taxes and tribute. With the fall of Myceanae to the Dorians (illiterate tribesmen) there was no longer a need for this and writing fell into disuse. The Literature of the day was oral passed on by the Bards. There is a theory that writing was re-invented to record Homers' Epics, The Illiad and The Odyssey The Myceaneans use Linear B Script which they took from the Minoans of Crete when they conquered the island around 1300 BCE. Linear B consists of an crude alphabet and pictographs to form writing. Between 800 and 700 BCE the Aegeans Greeks re-invented the Alphabet using the Phoenican Alphabet as a base. This in turn led to the Latin Alphabet which we use to-day. The Greek Alphabet is also the basis of the Cyrillic Alphabet used in Russia and other Slavic speaking countries. So it is not that hard to loose the ability to write as can also be seen in the European Dark Age when the Roman Empire fell and only the Christian Church kept writing alive in the West. Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady-of-Avalon 02-Nov-2008, 01:56 PM |
| Yes that is why it was call the Dark Ages actually.Contrary to general beliefs that the Dark Ages was somewhat dark and war all over Europe. So if I unserstand correctly not only the Greek alphabet is the basis of our own it is also the basis of many other language as well as I can see. That is why Greeks like to say that if it weren't for them nobody would have the ability to write today...  Look forward to read more my friend, LOA. |
| Posted by: Camac 16-Nov-2008, 11:34 AM |
| LOA; The five hundred years of the Greek Dark Age and the loss of writing did not mean that there were no advances made. The Dark age saw the transition from the Bronze to Iron Age, the rise of the city states, and the eastablishment of the Ionian Colonies in the Greek Islands of the Aegean and mainland Turkey. With the coming of the the Iron Age came improvements agriculture, building, and of course weapons. It is during this period also that the evolution of the Hoplite began and by the 5th century BCE make Greek Heavy Infantry the finest of its time. With the rise of the city states came security and a growing sense of nationalism. Not to Greece but to the City. The City State system was and would continue to be the biggest drawback in Greek unity. It was not a case of I'm Greek it was I'm Athenian, I'm Thebean, or I'm Spartan. It would not be until the 4th century BCE under Macedonia that Greece became united. By 700 BCE the Golden Age og Greece was on the horizon and with it would come an explosion of civilization in the form of Architecture, Literature, Science and Mathematics. The Glory that was Greece was about to be born. Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady-of-Avalon 17-Nov-2008, 06:05 PM |
| When we say the "Golden Age" doesn't it mean that the empire is at it strongest point in history...in term of socio-economics around the word? If the glory of Greece was about to be born with literature,architecture,science and mathematics what happened to his great armies...did it just disapeared? For was it not about this time as well that the great conqueror Alexander the Great was to conquer the world, Egypt for one or was it later in history? LOA...next chapter please |
| Posted by: Camac 23-Nov-2008, 11:58 AM |
| LOA; The time period of the Greek Dark Ages 1200-700 BCE was a time of great upheavel in Greece it also coincided with the transition from the Bronze Age to the Iron Age . From the North came the Dorian invaders displacing the inhabitants. Unlike earlier invaders the Dorians did not assimulate the exsisting culture but destroyed it. All the great cities of the Myceanae were laid to ruin and the peoples subjugated. The invasion forced the inhabitants to migrate and we see them moving east into Attica (Athens) and out into the Greek Islands and the west coast of Asia Minor (Turkey). From these new cities the Greek civilization would rise and spread back onto the mainland. The birth of the cities states began, Athens, Thebes, Corinth, and Sparta would become the leading states and each in turn would rise and fall . The cities in Asia minor would fall in turn to the Medes and the Persians. This would give rise to the Persian Wars and the Greek obsession with conquering Persia and getting revenge. This would would culminate in the Conquests of Alexander in the mid 4th century BCE. In the Pelopenese Sparta would rise to be predominate and in Attica Athens would rise and give Greece its Golden Age. The rise of these two great city states would eventually lead to the Pelopenesian War and the downfall of Athens and her Empire but this is 300 years in the future and for now the Greeks are clawing their way out of the Dark Age. Around 800 BCE the Greek alphabet was adapted from the Phoenecian, some say by Palamedes, others by Danaos,and others still by Kadmos. Who adapted it will never be settled but the fact that it was is of the greatest significance for it allowed the Illiad and the Odyssey to be put into writing and this in turn gave the basis for what was to become the Greek Culture. To the Greeks these two books were not fables or legend, they were historical fact. Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady-of-Avalon 25-Nov-2008, 05:34 PM | ||
It is really amazing to imagine that a great civilization like the Greeks would have their culture based on two books which to us are viewed as "stories" but it seems here by your statement that for them what was narrated in the Illiad and the Odyssey was real historical facts. I am impressed and surprise by this statement. The Greeks were quite intelligent and not prone to superstitions but on the other hand they were staunch believers of their mythology which I can clearly see that was real in their heads. In my book that I have here about Greek Mythology I've read a passage that states so about the Greeks and how the myths were very much part of their daily lives. Look forward to the next chapter. LOA |
| Posted by: Lady-of-Avalon 30-Nov-2008, 09:38 AM |
| Mossieur Camac, Where is the next chapter please....I'm waiting for my weekly reading...thank you LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 30-Nov-2008, 10:20 AM |
| For the time being we are going to leave the alphabet behind and jump forward roughly 100 to 150 years to the late 8th Century BCE and mid 7th century BCE. and the rise of perhaps the most well known and fascinating Ancient Greek City State, SPARTA. To begin with Sparta was not a city like you would imagine, it was a group of villages and unlike its rivals Athens, Thebes, or Argos was not fortified with a surrounding wall but relied upon the terrain and the excellence of its warriors for defense. It was also an Oligarchy with dual Monarchs. Around 700 to 650 BCE it began its rise to domination in the Peloponese with the 1st and 2nd Messenian War. With Spartas' victory the Messenians became totally subjugated and disenfranchised to become slaves in perpetuity. The Helots. Spartan Society was divided into three main classes. The Spartiate, who were the minority, but ruling class and full citizens, the Periokoi, (those that live about) who were the skilled workers and merchants, not citizens, and the Helots, who actually made up about 80% of the population and were unskilled manual workers , slaves. The Helots had absolutely no rights whatsoever and could be killed on a whim. In fact during a festival time in Autumn a Helot could be killed by any Spartan with out recrimmination or punishment. Because of the structure of the Spartan Society it left all Spartan males free to become warriors and herein lies the fascination with Sparta. The first recorded society whose sole purpose was the preperation for and conduct of War. It is going to take a few posting just to cover the subject of Sparta by itself and for those who are interested I would advise that you wipe all notions of the Spartans as portrayed by Hollywood from your minds. |
| Posted by: Lady-of-Avalon 03-Dec-2008, 11:37 AM |
| Another proof that Hollywood depict false images on everything or I should say most things including Ancient societies in history. I for one is surprise by your statement of the Spartan society though I should have remembered that in the movie "Spartacus" Kirk Douglas is a "Helot". What I didn't know was that Sparta was divided in three classes.The popular picture we have is that one of an "ancient super power" army and similar to Rome. I guess I will have to buy some books to read more about this particular society. One wonders though that for a society mostly consisted of slaves (80%) is that how come there was no uprising and free themselves from bondage? Was it just natural and part of daily life to be a slave and that is why there was no uprising against the rulers? LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 03-Dec-2008, 11:45 AM |
| LOA; Just briefly. There were uprising one of wich lasted 46 years. Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady-of-Avalon 03-Dec-2008, 12:00 PM |
| Camac, Was this the one depicted in "Spartacus"? LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 03-Dec-2008, 01:15 PM |
| LOA; No Spartacus was in the time of the Roman Empire about 500 years later in the 1st century around 71 BCE. Also Spartacus is believed to be a Thracian slave not a Messeanian (Helot). Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady-of-Avalon 13-Dec-2008, 06:36 AM |
| My dear Camac, I think it's time for the next chapter on the great city of Sparta and it's history. Thank you... LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 13-Dec-2008, 08:21 AM |
| LOA; On the morrow I shall do as you requested. Camac. |
| Posted by: Camac 14-Dec-2008, 10:22 AM |
| Spartan Society practiced an early (barbaric by our standards) form of Eugenics. When a child was born it was examined by the heads of the tribe and if found sickly or weak was exposed to die on the slopes of Mt. Taygetos. At age seven young boys were placed under the care of a State Officer and their education began. This education was was in the form of training to harden them to endure hardship and strict discipline and devotion to the State. This was the beginning of their lives as Spartan Warriors. Their training was so rigourous that many died. They were taught to kill, steal, and live off the land. They were also taught a stict sense of honour that any infraction of could result in their being beaten to death by their instructors. They were taught the use of weapons and Helots (slaves) were used for practice. These young boys lived in this barrack style life until the age of 20 when they entered into military service and were allowed to marry but not live with their spouses only stealing quick visits in the night. At age 30 they gained full citizenship and became a man. All of Spartan Society was geared towards the Military and it was male dominated but surprisingly woman were freer in Sparta than in any other Greek State. Their main function was of course to breed children for the state and Spartan discipline was extended to them also with the purpose of producing mothers who would be physically strong and saturated with the Spartan Spirit. It is said of Spartan Mothers that when their sons went off to war the Mother would hand him his shield with the words "With it or on it", meaning come back carrying it in victory or come back carried on it in death. The worst shame a Spartan Hoplite could endure was to be a sole survivor. At the famous Battle of Thermopylae one Spartan survived mainly because he had been wounded and was sent by King Leonidas to report back to Sparta the outcome of the battle. He lived in shame for a number of years until the Battle of Plataea where he regained honour by being in the forefront of the engagement and dying. This system of discipline and honour made the Spartans the most feared heavy infantry (Hoplite) in the Greek world and their story has survived down to the present day. |
| Posted by: Lady-of-Avalon 14-Dec-2008, 07:53 PM |
| Though I cannot say I am appalled by what is stated here about the "Eugenic acts" that the Spartans practiced, for even today just by what we are witnessing, young men killing people at random with heavy automatic weapons...is barbaric enough even for our modern times. This is quite interesting to read that a society like the Spartans and their logic has made them a force to be reckoned with. But then again on what the historians base themselves about the way they trained their youngs and the kind of society they were for there was no written or little was written about them.If I understand here the young boys were only train to become soldiers not scholars, so they wouldn't have been able to write or read!!! Are they based on what Homer wrote? LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 15-Dec-2008, 01:02 PM |
| LOA; Spartans could read and write for they had their Law Givers, Poets, and Philosophers. It is just that being in the minority and surrounded by people they had subjugated they had to be constantly prepared for War. They seemed on the most part quite content to stay within the boundaries of the Peloponese. Homer did not write about the Spartans, at his time they were still relatively an obsure part of the Dorian Invaders. Homer wrote of the Acheans, Argives and Trojans. The Dorians hadn't invaded Greece at the time of the Trojan War. |
| Posted by: Lady-of-Avalon 19-Dec-2008, 08:06 PM |
| It seems that Greece history is based a lot on invasions and it's almost incredible that it's still on the world maps...for all the invasions that country suffered it is surprising that they weren't annihilated all together. Can we expect our next chapter this week-end Camac? Or class is on break until after the New Year? LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 19-Dec-2008, 08:20 PM |
| Last class of this year will be this weekend. Then a break till the New Year. Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady-of-Avalon 19-Dec-2008, 08:26 PM |
| Thank you, LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 21-Dec-2008, 09:32 AM |
| The Spartans were especially unique amongst the Greeks in many ways outside their Militaristic lifestyle. They were very xenophobic trusting no foreigners or foreign ways,(foreign meant anything or person not Spartan) They were also unique in the fact that they had a Constitution a set of rules, responsibilities, rights and obligations of the citizenry They were also a very religious people ( Sparta would not wage war if it was at the time of a religious festival, as seen at both the Battle of Marathon and Thermopylae,. They would wait till the festival was over then go to war.)and a very moral people almost prudish in their outlook. Granted nudity meant nothing to them as it did with all the Greeks. At the age of 20 all males were expected to marry but as they had not attained manhood or finished their 10 year active military service the males still lived in barracks and had to sneak away to see their wives. Military service lasted 40 years from the age 20 till 60. The first ten years was active duty and the remainder was reserve. The status of women in Sparta was also unique amongst the Greek City States in that they had power, status and respect, and were allowed to own their own property and controll that of their husbands while he was away at war. In all the other City States women were kept at home and were the property of the male. There were little or no restrictions on Spartan Women but they were required to produce children, especially males for the defence of the state. To the Spartan the State was All, it came before any and all other aspects of Spartan life. A Spartan who failed in his duty was dead and an outcast. The nearest comparision to more modern times would be the Japanese Samurai. Well that the History lessons for this year. I'll be back if wanted next year and continue sharing my knowledge of Ancient Greece or any other historic topic you want. |
| Posted by: Lady-of-Avalon 22-Dec-2008, 09:48 AM | ||
| Talk about a "one track mind" society and the art of "building" a wall to stay hidden from the outside world...strange indeed. They were a "unique" society indeed but in a strange way life was not so different as today...men had to be in service of the state from 20 to 60 like you state and here in our modern days we start to work at the same age and retire...well...hope to retire at 60...ironic.
Thank you my friend and looking forward to our next chapters next year and in the meantime...   Enjoy the Holidays!LOA |
| Posted by: Lady-of-Avalon 05-Jan-2009, 05:45 PM |
| My dear Camac, Please when ready I would like us to continue on our subject of Ancient Greece. Thank you, LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 05-Jan-2009, 07:03 PM |
| LOA; Next class on Sunday 11 Jan. Camac. |
| Posted by: Camac 11-Jan-2009, 11:37 AM |
| As promised for those who are interested the next topic in Ancient Greek History will be the Persian Wars. In order to understand these wars we have to go back and look briefly at the Persian Empire. There have been a few Persian Empires but the one that interest us is the Achaemenid Empire which arose in the mid-sixth century (550-330 BCE) It was formed by Cyrus the Great and under his son Darius grew to its' largest extent. The conflict between Greece and Persian also has its' roots around this time. As early as 1100 BCE the Greeks had been colonizing the Western shore of what is to-day modern Turkey. They were known as the Ionian Colonies after the people who founded them. These colonies were in the Greek tradition City States such as Miletus, Halicanarsus,Ephesus, and Naxos.These cities fell to the Persians under Cyrus and became part of his empire. The first bout of the conflict started in 502 BCE when the island City State of Naxos rebelled against the Persians. The leaders of Naxos approached the city of Miletus, under a Tyrant named Aristagoras, for help. Aristagoras seeing an opportunity here to gain control of Naxos approached the Persian govenor (Satrap) of Lydia, Artraphernes, who was the brother of Darius I of Persia. It was Aristagors plan to get a fleet of ships under the command of the Persian Admiral Megabates. In order to get what he wanted Aristagoras made promises that he would not only take Naxos but reduce the rest of the Cyclades Islands and add them to the Empire. In this he failed for he somehow insulted the Persian Admiral who in turn warned the people of Naxos so that when the fleet arrived the Naxians were well prepared and after a 4 month seige in 499 BCE Aristagoras withdrew. Now in deep trouble Aristagoras called a council of the citizens of Miletus and convinced them to rebel against Darius. This they did with the condition that Aristagoras give up his rule and allow a Democratic form of government. The revolt spread quickly but the realization that they would need help quickly became apparent and Aristagoras set off for mainland Greece to obtain that help. Using the promise of money, which he did not have, he managed to alienate the Spartans but gain the aid of Athens and Eretria. While he was away seeking aid the Persians under Artaphernes besieged Miletus and upon returning the Greeks took the opportunity to attack and lay seige to Artaphernes capital Sardis while he was engaged elsewhere.Although the Greeks could not take the citadel at Sardis they did manage to sack and burn the city to the ground. With the destruction of Sardis more city states came over to the rebellion including those on Cyprus and it looked like the Greeks would gain their independence. This was a false dream as there was absolutely no possibility of them standing up to the full weight of the Persian Empire. It is said that Darius was so enraged with the destruction of Sardis that he instructed a servant to remind him three times a day of his vow to crush the Greeks. Until this time Darius did not even know of the Athenians and the Greeks were some obscure people in the West. By 493 BCE the revolt was over and Darius had reconquered all the Ionian cities involve and vowed to have his revenge upon the Mainland Greeks who had supplied help. His revenge would begin in 492 BCE with the first invasion of Greece and the leadup to Marathon. |
| Posted by: Lady-of-Avalon 14-Jan-2009, 03:40 PM |
| Well what impresses me is that "domino" effect that all these conquering have in common...as I read this...these guys would take the opportunity that the other one was gone to conquer while in the meantime he was the conquery...and so on!!! Didn't they have enough soldier to protect their cities while gone to conquer the other? I thought with all this huge populace in these ancient countries and cities that were almost over populated and especially with the fact that "all! men were in service more or less of their respective countries as soldiers. Again it is surprising to see that this ancient civilization that the Greek people are still amongst us today after all these wars and destructions over the centuries!!!!! Fascinating!!!! LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 15-Jan-2009, 03:42 PM |
| LOA; Let me see if I can explain it this way. The leaders of Montreal decide that they will break away from Quebec. Charest and his boys say no way and leaving a small garrison to protect Quebec City attack Montreal. In the meantime Montreal knows it is in big trouble so sends an envoy to Ottawa for help. Ottawa says no way so the envoy goes to Toronto and says look we will pay you to help us. Toronto sees an oportunity to put a hurt on Quebec City and make a profit at the same time. Meawhile Charest and his army have laid seige to Montreal and are totally involved. Toronto sends its army around Montreal and knowing that Quebec City is lightly defened, attacks. Trouble is Toronto forgot about the Citadel and the Quebecers are safely set up there and can withstand a long seige. Toronto knows it can't sustain a seige so sacks the city and leaves taking Charest hair dresser with them. Charest rushed back to Quebec City sees what has happened doesn't really care about the sacking but is really annoyed about his hair dresser and vows revenge. He calls Harper in Ottawa and says "Hey you gotta do somethin bout dos Torona guys" Harper agrees and sends the Army to Toronto, beats the tar out of them and Montreal seeing that it is alone surrenders and everything goes back the way it was except Toronto not only got beat but Montreal didn't pay. Also Harper is up there in Ottawa vowing more revenge against Toronto for not voting for him. This is basicalyy what happened in the Ioanian Revolt and that vow of vengence led to the first invasion of Greece. Aristagoras like Toronto got greedy and saw an opportunity to get rich. Instead ended up loosing and going into exile. Hope my little bit of fun doesn't upset anyone. Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady-of-Avalon 16-Jan-2009, 10:09 AM |
ROFLMAO  This is good realllly good...I couldn't even see the end and had to read twice for my vision blurred all the time from laughing.... I loved that part "really annoyed about his hair dresser" Thank you for the explanation...that was good...  LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 16-Jan-2009, 10:15 AM |
| LOA; Glad you liked my explanation. I was hoping you would get a chuckle from it. Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady-of-Avalon 16-Jan-2009, 10:18 AM |
| Oh! I did indeed my friend...I did and still does...I liked it very much...and I needed a good laugh this morning and you brought it to my lips. Thank you my friend, LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 18-Jan-2009, 10:24 AM |
| In 492 BCE, Darius, sent his army under the command of Mardonius, his son-in-law, to invade Greece. Gathering his army and fleet at the Hellespont, (Dardanelles) he moved into Thrace and Macedon, both of which were part of the Persian Empire at the time. Thrace being a Satrapy (province) and Macedon an ally and client state paying tribute for the right to survive. This invasion ended before it really started as the Fleet was destroyed by a storm off the Isthmus of Athos with the loss of 300 ships and 20,00 men. Mardonius withdrew back to the Asian side of the Aegean Two years later, 490 BCE, Darius assembled another invasion force under the command of Datis and Artaphernes with the intention to strike at both Attica (Athens) and Eretria for aiding in the Ionian Revolt. Eretria was the first to feel the weight of the Persian Invaders and after a six day seige the city was sacked and the people sold into slavery in the eastern part of the Empire far from Greece. Now it was the turn of Athens to suffer the same fate, as far as Darius was concerned. Through out the early part of Athens' History it flip flopped between Democarcy and Tyranny and usually when the Tyrant was deposed he fled either to another Greek City State or to the Persians. At the time of this invasion a Greek named Hippias, who was the son of a former Tyrant of Athens, Peisistratus, advised the Persians to land at Marathon on the south east coast of Attica and march overland to Athens razing the countryside as they passed. The Persians followed the advice and with between 20,000 and 60,000 troops set out for Marathon and their date with History. On this small vee shaped plain surrounded by hills the Athenians (9,000) and their Plataean allies (1,000) waited. |
| Posted by: Lady-of-Avalon 25-Jan-2009, 10:22 AM |
| As I read the paragraphs here, one can clearly read and understand that "tyranny" was very popular...power and greed must have been quite a motivation to get to the top. I can't wait to read the rest and the fate of the Persian armies on their way to Marathon. LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 25-Jan-2009, 10:44 AM |
| In the previous year, 491BCE, Darius sent envoys to Greece demanding Earth and Water as a sign of submission. The envoys sent to Athens were arrested put on trial and executed. The Spartans on the other hand were more expedient in that they merely threw the envoys down a well saying "They could get all the Earth and Water they wanted down there". This further enraged Darius and in 490 BCE he launched his second invasion of the Greek mainland. The two main reasons for this second attempt were, to subdue Greece and add it to his empire, and to chastize and punish both Eretria and Athens for aiding the Ionian rebels as mentioned previously. Athens sent runners throughout Greece calling on the other City States to join them in repelling this invasion, only two city responded, Plataea, and Sparta. The Plataeans muster their full military force of 1000 men and marched off the join the Athenians at Marathon. The Spartans, being extremely religious, on the other hand told Athens that they would join them after the Feast of Carneia as they could not march until the rising of the full moon. The Athenians and Plataeans arrived at Marathon before the Persians and securing both the exits from the plain made camp and waited but not for long. The Persian Fleet arrived and landed between 20,000 and 60,000 men, including 3,000 Calvary. The Greeks at this time in their History relied on Calvary mainly for scouting and not as a fighting force. Because the Greeks had arrived first they had secured the plain and their line extended across the plain to anchor on the hills on either flank making it extremely difficult to be flanked by the Persian Calvary. For 5 days the 9,000 Athenians and 1,000 Plataeans waited for the Persians to attack. On the 5th day it was observed that part of the Persian force, both infantry and calvary were re-embarking to sail around Attica and attack Athens directly. As the Athenians had completely denuded their city of defenses the decision was made to attack the Persians the following day hoping for victory and then a swift return to Athens before the Persians arrived. The 9,000 Athenian and the 1,000 Plataean Hoplites were still out numbered at least 2 to 1 by the Persian and on the morning of the 6th day attacked the lightly armoured Persians. The Persians at first were astonished to see the Greek Hoplites running full bore at the Persian lines they could not believe that these Greeks carrying at least 60 lbs of armour and weapons were running the kilometer between the lines. When the Greeks smashed into the Persians the line bowed but the Persians held and slowly started pushing the Greeks back. This was actaully what the Greeks had planned for as the centre gave way it exposed the Persian flanks to the Plataeans who were on both Greek flanks and when the Greek centre halted the Flanks closed to enveloped the Persians. This is the first recorded use of the "Double Envelopment" in military tactics. What ensued was a slaughter with the Persians breaking and fleeing to their ships in total disarray. Athens and her Plataean ally had won and for the time being saved Greece from Persian domination. The day after the victory the Spartans showed up and immediately upon inspection of the battlefield heaped praise on both the Athenians and Plataeans . The Persians had suffered 6,400 losses and 11 ships captured to the Athenian 192 and 11 Plataean losses. With victory the Athenians dispatched a runner, Pheidippides, who ran the 26 miles 385 yards, ( the modern Marathon Run)only to drop dead after delivering the news to Athens. Thus ended the Battle of Marathon, but not the Persian Wars. Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady-of-Avalon 03-Feb-2009, 06:58 PM |
| What an extraordinary description of battle tactics...really as I read this I just close my eyes and can clearly see the battle taking shapes and then chaos as all hell brakes loose...hmmm...I like that for it gives me an excellent idea of what battle is all about...might put it to practice in MK Sorry it took so long to reply...but please I want to read next chapter. LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 03-Feb-2009, 08:17 PM |
| LOA; Sorry I missed Sundays' Chapter. I'll make up for it this coming Sunday. Camac. |
| Posted by: Lady-of-Avalon 03-Feb-2009, 08:28 PM |
| Well teacher has the right to a day off from class after all... LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 08-Feb-2009, 10:14 AM |
| With the defeat at Marathon and the aborted landing at Athens the Persian Fleet struck oars and headed back to the Asian side of the Aegean. This defeat was the first major defeat of Persian Infantry in two generations and Darius vowed revenge. He ordered that troops and supplies be gathered from all corners of the Empire and preperations made for another invasion of Greece. In 486 BCE four years after Marathon, rebellion erupted in Egypt and Darius was sidetracked into quelling it. In 485 BCE, Darius after a reign of 36 years died further delaying the invasion of Greece. His son Xerxes I , finished the re-subjugation of Egypt only to have rebellion breakout in Babylon which he also put down. Finally in 480 BCE all was ready for the Invasion of Greece and Xerxes would avenge his father and settle once and for all with these insolent Greeks. Before continuing some qualifications have to be made. The main source of Historical facts on the Persian War comes from Herodotus a Ionian Greek from the city state of Halicanarsus in modern day Turkey, and was written perhaps 40 years after the event. Herodotus was an exile from his home and spent a great deal of time in Athens. He was also a member of the Hoplite Class. This was the upper class of Greek Society as only the more wealthy could afford to purchase the armour of a Hoplite which consisted of a Corinthian Style Helmet, Breast and Back Plate,Greaves, Shield (Hoplon), Doru (spear), and Xiphos (short sword). Being a member of the so called elite his History is somewhat biased in its outlook. As with all histories from the time it contains many exaggerations and propognda making the winners look good. (Much the same as to-day). We do know that the size of the Persian Army, which depending on the account ranged from 500,000 to 1,500,000,000 was definitely an over estimation and the size was more than likely closer to 100,000 to 200,000 all branches. The route that the Persians followed through Greece has been carefully surveyed by modern military experts and seeing that the armies of the day relied heavily on "Living off the Land" it is highly unlikely that a million or more men plus animals could be sustained. In one statement Herodotus says that the Persians drank a river dry. Quite the accomplishment. The composition of the Persian army is known and they relied heavily on cavalry , archers and light infantry. To the Greeks Calvary was used primarily for scouting and harassment and archery was considered unworthy of a true warrior.The Greeks relied on their Heavy Infantry in Phalanx, the finest Heavy Infantry of the times. Perhaps this stage of the Persian Wars is the best known for it is in this invasion that the "Battle of Thermopylae" (Hot Gates) and the 300 Spartans gained immortality even though it was a defeat for the Greeks. Next chapter the preparations on both sides for the War. |
| Posted by: Camac 15-Feb-2009, 10:54 AM |
| In the early months of 480 BCE Xerxes had crossed his army from Asia to Europe at the Helespont in what is modern day Turkey. This was accomplished by the Persians building two pontoon bridges spaning roughly 1500 feet of fast moving water. The engineering was superb for the day as the Helespont connects the Mediterranean to the Black Sea and there is a 5 to 6 knot current running. The first attempt by the Persians to bridge this point ended in disaster and a second attempt was immediately made the met with total success. It has been estimated that 2,500,000 Persians crossed this bridge but it seems that 250,000 at a maximun crossed. The newest figures put the size of the Persian Army between 100,000 to 250,000 men. Even at these lower estimates it was quite an accomplishment and the Persians far outnumbered the Greeks. Xerxes seemed in no hurry in his conquest as he moved his army at a leisurely pace through Thrace and Macedonia heading south along the Aegean Coast of Greece. Just off shore the Persian Fleet kept pace with the Army providing flank protection. The Greeks also were preparing for this invasion they knew was coming. From 484 till 480 Athens had been building ships, Triremes, the fastest and perhaps the greatest fighting vessel of the ancient world. Athens would rely on her Navy. The oracle at Delphi has said that Athens would be victorious behind her Wooden Wall, Many thought this to mean the old wooden fortifications around the Acropolis, but Themistocles the Athenian leader had conviced the Athenians to build ships, lots of ships, 180 plus.This Themistocles argued was Athens Wooden Wall. The rest of Greece made preparations but they were mainly reliying on Sparta to head the land forces as it was the preminent military force amongst them. City States like Corinth and Argos wanted to build a wall across the Corinthian Pennisula to defend the Peloponese and leave the rest of Greece to its fate. Wiser heads prevailed and troops were sent. When the contingent from the Peloponese set out they were 4,500 strong and led by Leonidias with 300 Spartans. The rest was made up of Meagarans, Argives, and Corithians and as they marched north to there rendevous with destiny another roughly 2,500 joined, Thespians, Thebans, Boetians, Athenians and Plateans.Two armies converging on a spot on the map of Greece called Thermopylae, (The Hot Gates). The Greeks also had a fleet following offshore and during the coming battle would play an important part that is largely overlooked due to the famous land battle that was about to take place. Next week THERMOPYLAE. |
| Posted by: Lady-of-Avalon 18-Feb-2009, 06:25 PM |
| That is unfortunate that Herotodus didn't write adequately in describing what really took place then...as one read all of this and what really has taken place one wonders if it was all just fiction that they wrote to look victorious through out history...as it was the fashion then for many rulers...whereas the pharoahs of Egypt who did the same by depicting themselves as one man against a whole army. So, what really went on then...god only knows...as there is not much physical evidence left to really know for sure...things and/or artifacts that could tell the scientist by carbondating what is discovered... Like you said many times...sometimes in books things can indeed be enhanced to even make the loosers look good. Though I know a little about the Thermopylae I can't wait to read about it. LOA |
| Posted by: Camac 22-Feb-2009, 11:40 AM |
| THERMOPYLAE: Much has been made of the 300 Spartans under Leonidas and their stand at Thermopylae and rightly it should, but little is said of the others who stood with them and fell to the last man. Of all the Greek City States, Sparta was the most conservative and religious and when approached by Athens and other Cities to lead the Greeks, Sparta answered that she could not engage in a military campaign at that time as it was the Festival of Carneia and all military operations were forbidden. In order to get around this restriction, Leonidas said it was a good time to go wandering and check out the situation. Choosing a personal bodyguard of 300 he set out on what our Australian Cousins would call a "Walk About" that just happened to end at Thermopylae. Knowing full well that this was a "Forlone Hope' (suicide) Leonidas had chosen his bodyguard from amongst those Spartans that had sons to carry on the blood line of their families and so with his 300 Spartiate (full citizens) 700 other Lacedaemonians and 900 Helots (slaves) set out. As this group moved through the Pelopenese they were joined by others, Mantineans,Tegeans, Arcadians, Corinthians, Philians, and Myceneans, swelling the ranks to 4,000. When the group moved on through Attica and Boeotia others joined, the Thespians, Melians, Thebeans, Phocians, and Locrians adding another 3,400 making the total that arrived at Thermopylae 7,400. ( there were no Athenians at Thermopylae as they were occupied elsewhere) Arriving well ahead of the Persians, the Greeks set about making preperations to defend the "Middle Gate", the narrowest part of the pass that Xerxes would have to channel his army. Here at the "Middle Gate" the Phocians had erected a defensive wall sometime before and the Greeks set about repairing and re-enforcing it. It was during the rebuilding of the wall that news arrived from the city of Trachis telling Leonidas about the path through the mountains that could be used to out flank the pass. Leonidas dispatched the 1000 Phocians to guard this route and hold off the Persians should they discover it. In mid August the Persian Army was seen approaching the pass and a council of war was called by the Greeks. At this council some of the Pelopenesians advocated withdrawing to the Isthmus of Corinth and prepare defences there. The Phocians and Locrians became upset with this and protested that the defence should be here as it was their Cities and lands that wold first feel the "Wrath of the Persians". As the original strategy called for the defence of both Thermopylae and the defence of Artemisium by the Greek fleet Leonidas agreed that the defence would be here at Thermopylae. With this decission the fate of the defenders was sealed, they would prevail or fall here in the narrow pass between the sheer cliff face of Mt. Anopaea on the left flank and the sea on the right. Shortly after the council Xerxes sent an envoy to negotiate with the Greeks for their submission when this was refused the envoy demanded that the Greeks surrender their spears to which it is reported Leonidas answered "Come and take them". For four days Xerxes held off his attack waiting for the Greeks to come to their senses and disperse for he could not believe that they would fight. Finally on the fifth day Xerxes ordered the Medes to attack. and to bring any Greek prisoners before him. The Medes soon found themselve in a head on frontal assault against the lines of heavily armed and armoured Greeks. Although the Persians greatly outnumbered the Greeks they were forced to attack an a very narrow front with no possibility of outflanking the defenders. Here also the differences in arms and armour of the two played a major role. The Persians were armed and equiped for open country warfare where cavalry and light infantry played major roles. Archery was also prevalent with the Persians and they relied heavily on it. Here at Thermopylae lightly armoured archers standing behind a wicker sheild wall could play no part at first. The Medes who were the first to attack were armend with light javelins, wicker sheilds, and short daggers. The Greeks on the other hand had honed the use of heavy infantry to an art. Armed with 8 foot long steel bladed spears, 3 foot circular wood and bronze sheilds, the Xiphos short thrusting sword, wearing Corinthian style Helmets, chest and back armour, and greaves, they were far less vulnerable than the Persians. The Greeks had also invented the Phalanx, a close knit formation of spearmen each carrying a Doru (spear) and Hoplon (shield) locked together covering the right side of the man to the left . This shield wall provided an almost impenetrable line of protection and allowed each man to thrust with his spear in an overhand downward motion. Wave after wave of Medes were slaughtered trying to break the Greek formation. After three attemps Xerxes withdrew the Medes and sent in his "Immortal" his elite warriors, 10,000 strong, only to witness them suffer the same destruction as the Medes. It is said that Xerxes "despaired of this Army," no one had stood before his might and now these 7,000 Greeks defied him. So ended day one of the Battle. Next week day two and three. |
| Posted by: Camac 01-Mar-2009, 10:36 AM |
| On the second day of battle it is reported that Xerxes sent another 50,000 against the Greeks, (the difference being that with this attack the Persians had to be lashed into moving) only to see them routed as on the day before. Perplexed Xerxes retired to his tent and it was while he was contemplating what next to do that word reached him the Greek traitor, Ephialtes, sought an audience to inform the "Great King"of a path leading over the mountains which would bring his Army out behind the Greeks. (Ephialtes would go down as the greatest traitor in Greek history and his name would become synonomous with "NIGHTMARE".) Seizing the opportunity, Xerxes dispatched his Immortals under the command of Hydarnes and led by Ephialtes at night to secure the route. The Greeks had learned about the path when they first arrived at Thermopylae and had sent the Phocians, 1000 strong, to guard it. As dawn broke on the third day the Phocians became aware of the Persians by the sound of rustling underbrush and hastly donning arms and armour prepared to meet the Persians. So rapid was the response that Hydarnes thought he had run into the Spartans and had to be reassured by Ephialtes that it was the Phocians not the Spartans that he faced. Hydarnes ordered his Archers forward and "showered them with arrows" forcing the Phocians to withdraw higher up the mountain to make their stand. The Persians bypassed them taking the left branch of the path that led to Alpenus and behind the main Greek force. Upon recieving word that the Phocians had failed to stop the Persians, Leonidas called a council of war at which it was decided to abandon Thermopylae, that is with the exception of the Spartans who had taken an oath to defend the pass to the last man. Leonidas also ordered that the Thebans remain behind as he did not trust them as their city, Thebes, was on the verge of submitting to the Persians. At the same meeting the leader of the 700 Thespians, Demophilus, stepped forward and stated that he and his men would stand with the Spartans. The rest of the Greeks set about making preparations to withdraw and set about an arguement that has lasted down to modern times. Was this an orderly withdrawal or were the other Greeks running away while they had the chance. It is argued that Leonidas saw the wisdom of a rearguard force to slow the Persians down as he knew that once they were through the pass and into open ground the Persian cavalry would have open reign to ride the Greeks down and slaughter them. By staying behind he preserved the lives of 3000 men to fight another day. So on the morning of the third day 1400 Greek Hoplites (and 900 Helots [Slaves}) made ready for battle and to meet their death as they knew there would be no survivors. When all preparations for battle were complete the Greeks moved forward away from the protective wall to a wider section of the pass to meet the Persians. Here they stood waiting for the full onslaught of Persian force and here they began to die. Xerxes took his time in his preparations for battle as he knew that victory was within his grasp. Delaying in his libations to the Gods until he knew that the Immortals were advancing behind the Greeks he finally gave the order and the Persians moved forward. Because the Greeks had moved away from the wall and the country was now more opened Xerxes deployed his archers and their arrows "blocked out the sun" (on the first day of battle when told this a Spartan had answered "good then we shall fight in the shade"). When the Immortals appeared the Thebans did as Leonidas had suspected and deserted to the Persians. The remaining Spartans and Thespians withdrew to an area where a tree stood and here made their last stand. They fought till their spears broke, drew their xiphos, hacking and stabbing till they also in turn broke. Shields were used as battering rams till they also shattered, rocks were hurled and the severed limbs of the enemy were used as clubs. Hands feet and teeth became deadly weapons as Persians throats were ripped out or bitten throught to the jugular vein. Leonidas fell and his body was fought over three times with the Greeks finally recovering it. As the Greek numbers dwindled they moved into the shade of the tree and Xerxes ordered the assault halted and gave the honour of finishing the Greeks to his Archers. It is said that 20,000 Persians died at Thermopylae no one knows for sure as Xerxes ordered that most of his dead be burned as to hide the numbers from the rest of his army. He ordered that the body of Leonidas be found and brought to him where upon he ordered it beheaded and the torso cruxified. After the Persians moved on in pursuit of their conquest the local people buried the Greek bodies that had been left for the scavanger and erected a tripod over their grave. On it it was inscribed 'GO TELL THE SPARTANS, THOU WHO PASSES BY, THAT HERE OBEDIENT TO THEIR LAWS WE LIE' beside this was also a tripod to the 700 Thespians who had fallen with their Spartan brothers. The Battle of Thermopylae was a defeat for the Greeks but it bought time for the rest of Boeotia, Attica, and the Peloponese to prepare, for Xerxes would have his revenge. Nopte: I have decided that this will be the last posting of Ancient Greek History as I do not think there is really much interest. To me it is a fascinating subject because it is the basis for the modern world and civilization. If not for these Ancient People we might still be running around in animal skins. They gave us so much whichout with our civilization would never have evolved. Camac. |