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> Predestination, Are we chosen by God or do we choose?
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DesertRose 
Posted: 30-May-2004, 08:31 PM
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I know this thread was in another forum, but I had to bring it up again because at church today my Pastor brought up a very interesting point in this theological point of view. He said that, yes, God has chosen us all of us to love and serve our Lord with all our heart, soul and mind.................but it is up to "us" to cast the final vote whether to follow. In other words, while we are predestined to serve and love God, He knows beforehead whether we will or not, but leaves that final choice to us! It doesn't mean that God chooses certain people to love and serve him and the rest are supposedly "doomed," is what I am trying to say. Hope this makes sense. I was excited cause I just never heard it put this way before.


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Roisin-Teagan 
Posted: 30-May-2004, 10:26 PM
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Rosemary,

I think this topic was good to revisit again. And I agree with your pastor concerning predestination. We are all given the choice to chose God and His offering of salvation, but at the same time the Lord knows who is going to accept Him or not. It is sort of a mystery---God still calls out to the whole world. Like the word says (paraphrased) "It is not His will that any should perish," while knowing all will not choose Christ.

Peace,
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MacEoghainn 
Posted: 30-May-2004, 11:04 PM
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Foreknowledge does not equal predestination. Just because God knows what our choice will be does not alter the fact that we are the ones who make the choice.


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Annabelle 
Posted: 30-May-2004, 11:40 PM
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OK, explain this Predestination thing to me. My daughter has taken it up and I don't quite understand the whole thing.


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DesertRose 
Posted: 31-May-2004, 12:37 AM
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Annabelle! It is a very confusing topic and one that probably none of us will agree upon but enjoy discussing.........I hope! unsure.gif I just thought it interesting that our Pastor said that God knows who will accept him beforehand and that he does not use us as puppets to serve Him but that we still have that choice! Doesn't mean my Pastor is theologically correct, mind you. That is why we are always to check our Bibles for ourselves!

will be interesting to hear what others have to say!
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Roisin-Teagan 
Posted: 31-May-2004, 12:57 AM
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Here is what the Word says about predestination:

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn amony many brethern. Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" (Romans 8: 28-30; KJV).

All are given the invitation, but not all answer the R.S.V.P.! Eventhough we are all given the invitation to become sons and daughters, the Lord who "lives in eternity", knows which ones who "live in time" will choose to receive his forgiveness through Jesus Christ his Son. The Bible says, "Many are called, but few are chosen, Matthew 20:16." Maybe when you answer yes to his invitation to become his child, then you are chosen/predestinated, as the scripture says above, to be transformed into the image of his Son."
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DesertRose 
Posted: 31-May-2004, 01:28 AM
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From what you have given us Roisin, this is what I think. Many are called and chosen, but not everybody accepts!
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aklassie 
Posted: 31-May-2004, 04:56 AM
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That's a good way to explain it.
Has any one realy thought about what the word eternal means?
We had no begining and will have no end!!!
We were with God befor this world was created!!!!

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath
blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the
world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ
to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."
Ephesians 1:3-5

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated
according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the
counsel of his own will"
Ephesians 1: 11


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DesertRose 
Posted: 31-May-2004, 05:13 AM
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My gosh! AKlassie! That is my absolute favorite scripture in all the earth! Thank you!
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Roisin-Teagan 
Posted: 31-May-2004, 10:00 AM
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In the natural we did have a beginning and our mortal bodies will have a end of sorts, but in the Spirit we were with God as he created the universe. What I believe this means is we were on his mind, in his heart as he created everything. He knew our names and when we would be born. As the scripture says The Lord is the Alpha and the Omega...he is without beginning or end. But because God lives in eternity where there are no bounderies of time and space and in his mind we who are followers of Jesus Christ are already seated in the heavenlies with Christ Jesus...sealed by the Holy Spirit. But in the natural we are still struggling through this life.

Let me try and put it this way: We were created in the image of God...right? And as we learn from scripture there are three parts to this one God...God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost (Spirit). Well in the same way there are three parts to God there are three parts to us. We have a spirit, we have a soul, and we have a body. Our spirit is what communes with God and what God speaks to to share his guidance and love. When we received Christ's forgiveness our spirits were transformed and awaken from it's dormaint sleep. In other words, our spirits were dead to the things of God before we received his Spirit. God the Holy Spirit comes to reside in or with our spirit. This is backed up by scripture when it says..."Those who worship God must worship him in spirit and in truth. This is different from a head knowledge of God or a emotional experience.

As for our soul: The soul is made up of our intellect/mind, emotions, and free-will. As for the body it is what the Bible calls the flesh. It drives us and is affected by the fall of Adam. When we received Christ our spirits were transformed and made holy, acceptable, and not guilty before God. On resurrection day our bodies will be transformed and made holy and perfect just like Christ's body. But our souls are being daily transformed into the likeness of Christ. We have to walk out our salvation with fear and trembling. In God's mind of eternity it is already a reality...we are seated with Christ in the heavenlies. But we have to walk it out in time, in the natural. But it is a done deed in the spirit. As the scripture says, There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus...we can boldy enter the throne room of God.

Our soul is in a constant struggle between being controlled by our spirit which is in commune with God and our bodies (flesh) which wants its own way and destruction. Scripture says, "The battle ground is in the mind." When we are allowing the spirit to take control and lead, and the soul is in-line with the spirit, then the body lines up as well. But when we allow the flesh/body to lead the spirit is last. As the scripture says, The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak---weak in the things of God. This why we have to daily die or crucifiy the flesh...becoming living sacrafices which are acceptable and holy to God. (I know I'm not giving you Chapter and verse, because I'm writing with a stream of consciousness...so bare with me. And if you want to investigate it for yourselves do an indepth study).

So as we live in eternity with God in the spirit, our souls live in time learning the lessons God has for us, growing stronger, and learning over and over of His Great Love and Grace through every situation. Our bodies cry out and moan for the day they will be transformed into perfect bodies that can stand in the presence of a Living Holy God. Until that glorious day when we will meet him face to face and truly know him and be like him, we walk by faith with a hope of glory in our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Elspeth 
Posted: 31-May-2004, 01:20 PM
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God created all of us. God wants to be in relationship with all of us. He knows who will choose to come to Him and who will not. We have the free-will to chose. So not all come to the Father, but that is our choice. His arms are open to all.

Predestination, in my understanding, was a manmade misunderstanding. I cannot believe God created any so that they could perish. He created all knowing some would chose to perish. Big difference.


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aklassie 
Posted: 31-May-2004, 06:02 PM
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The word in Greek means: To mark off first or before hand.
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DesertRose 
Posted: 01-Jun-2004, 02:48 PM
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QUOTE (Elspeth @ 31-May-2004, 01:20 PM)
God created all of us. God wants to be in relationship with all of us. He knows who will choose to come to Him and who will not. We have the free-will to chose. So not all come to the Father, but that is our choice. His arms are open to all.

Predestination, in my understanding, was a manmade misunderstanding. I cannot believe God created any so that they could perish. He created all knowing some would chose to perish. Big difference.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, Elspeth! but there are some faiths out there that believe otherwise........as you know. I am like you, God wants NO ONE to perish!
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aklassie 
Posted: 01-Jun-2004, 02:53 PM
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Here's a story I'd like to share that show what predestination means:

There was this farmer, who went hiking up in the mountains. He finds a Eagels nest with a few eggs in it. He takes one home and puts it under a brooding hen he has on his farm. Time goes by and the egg hatches. This poor eagle is out in the barn yard with the other chickens searching in the dirt for bugs and worms. It is never full always hungry. The stuff it has to eat never seem right to it.
All this while the momma eagle is out looking for her baby, she knows one is missing. She look and she looks over the whole earth for her missing baby. As time goes by she happens over the barn yard. She sees her baby down in the dirt searching. She screams and screams to it. The baby hears the voice and starts looking for it, not really knowing where it's coming from. The momma screams, "look up!" The baby does, "how do I get up there?" Momma says jump.
So the baby jumps from ground to post, to roof all the while flapping its big wings. Pretty soon it sees what it's wings are for and pretty soon is flying as fast as it can to Momma. Of course the momma hen mean while is having a heart attack.

That's how I feel we are. Eagles raised with chickens until we here the scream of our momma and we know we're not meant to dig in the dirt but sore in the heavens.
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Elspeth 
Posted: 02-Jun-2004, 08:32 AM
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I like your story aklassie! smile.gif
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