Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
Celtic Radio Community > The Grove > Correct Me If I'm Wrong.....


Posted by: Catriona 08-Oct-2003, 08:31 AM
I have never really posted in this area, simply because I am an agnostic and have no real religious beliefs at all.... However, I sometimes read the posts, as some of them are really interesting.

However, I THOUGHT this was an area for non-Christian discussion?

Yep, I've just checked - it's supposed to be a Pagan area.... cool.gif

Maybe it's just me, but I have noticed recently that there are some quite antagonistic anti-Wiccan, Druidic etc posts......

If the Christians want an area for discussion, I am sure that the Management will oblige... biggrin.gif wink.gif

Posted by: Dreamer1 08-Oct-2003, 11:30 AM
Catriona, and all,

I don't think anyone meant to corner the pages, so to speak. I'm sorry if anything I've said has offended anyone. I am Christian, but for the third time in my life I've felt a *very* strong urge to learn about paganism, and wicca in particular. Therefore, since about February, I've been reading and researching. (In fact, our local Library just called to say they've got more books ready for me to pick up.) Reading all of your posts has given me insight, and also raised more questions. I'm not turning my back on my own beliefs, but neither can I ignore this pull I'm feeling to learn about yours. So far, I'm very glad I've finally taken this so seriously as it's helped to dispell quite a lot of nonsense, and I've begun to reconsider some long-ingrained reservations and fears.

Please forgive me once again, if there's anything I've posted that has offended you. I'm still learning, and hope to continue to do so here. You all have helped me, and I do appreciate it.

Dreamer1

Posted by: Welsh Guy 08-Oct-2003, 11:36 AM
Hi Hen,

I've never been in the "Grove" before, I only came in because I saw you had posted here. All I can say is, I'm with you Catriona, but since Christianity was only a recent introduction to Celtic nations we might as well ask for a Muslim or Seihk section too.

Come to think of it Vulcan would probably have as much relevance.

Posted by: Keltic 08-Oct-2003, 11:56 AM
QUOTE (Welsh Guy @ Oct 8 2003, 02:36 PM)
but since Christianity was only a recent introduction to Celtic nations we might as well ask for a Muslim or Seihk section too.

Come to think of it Vulcan would probably have as much relevance.

Whether you are Christian or not, Christianity played a very important part in the history of the Celtic Nations. The comments concerning the Muslims, Sikhs or vulcans having as much relevance couldn't be any further from the truth!

Posted by: Welsh Guy 08-Oct-2003, 12:00 PM
QUOTE (Keltic @ Oct 8 2003, 08:56 PM)
Whether you are Christian or not, Christianity played a very important part in the history of the Celtic Nations.

Don't be daft mate they didn't even arrive in Northern Europe till the middile of the first century. THAT is recent

Posted by: Keltic 08-Oct-2003, 12:10 PM
QUOTE (Welsh Guy @ Oct 8 2003, 03:00 PM)
Don't be daft mate they didn't even arrive in Northern Europe till the middile of the first century. THAT is recent

Book of Kells, Lindisfarne Gospels, Book of Durrow, Ardagh Chalice, Tara Brooch, Aberlemno Stone....

I guess that the British made no contributions to the culture here in Canada since they didn't settle until the 17th century, nor did the Europeans have much sway on U.S. history.

I won't lower myself to taking a shot at you (the daft comment).

Posted by: Keltic 08-Oct-2003, 12:19 PM
Now to address Catriona's comments,

If the non-pagan posts are done out of interest or for clarification, there shouldn't be a problem. I find this forum interesting just for my own education. I don't necessarily agree with a lot of it but nonetheless find it interesting. I will not post a negative comment unless I see something as intolerant as Welsh Guys post. If I wasn't truly interested in seeing other views, I would stay out of this forum. I don't like ignorance whether it is from a Christian or a non-Christian.

Posted by: Welsh Guy 08-Oct-2003, 12:23 PM
QUOTE (Keltic @ Oct 8 2003, 09:10 PM)
I guess that the British made no contributions to the culture here in Canada since they didn't settle until the 17th century,

No, Just destroyed it

Posted by: RavenWing 08-Oct-2003, 12:48 PM
I will clarify my intentions.

I started this because there are quite a few pagans that frequent this site. There are so many sites out ther that are pagan oriented and turn out to be full of nothing but name calling, and people are down right mean.

Also, many pagans follow celtic-oriented traditions.

I like to include all faiths so that if someone has a question, and would honeslty like to know about something pertaining to various aspects of paganism, they can ask without feeling like they will be persecuted. However, this does not give anyone free reign to force their beliefs on another.

Posted by: Catriona 08-Oct-2003, 03:58 PM
Dreamer1
I had absolutely no intention of singling you out when I made my comments - to be honest, I cannot remember reading anything that you may have posted. As I said, I do not post here, and only look in occasionally.

KELTIC
This site (the whole site, not just the Pagan forum) has always been quite friendly... BUT, just recently I have noticed a number of posts which seem to take exception to the views of many of the members.

This is not good and it is not kind.

I also think you misunderstood Welsh Guy's comments. He takes a little getting used to, but he can't help that, he's Welsh.... (see, even I can express prejudice). WG is one of the least prejudiced people I have had the pleasure to meet online....


Everyone:

I live my life by the Agnostics prayer

'God if there is one, save my soul if I have one'.... It has worked for me for many years. angel_not.gif

I do not like to see proselytising - I do not like to see what I perceive as a contempt for those views that do not chime with mine....... I reiterate, this board was set up at the request of some Pagan members as THEIR discussion area.....

If the Christians want a forum of their own, then I know that the owners of this site would probably agree to this..... I cannot see why visiting here and making hurtful comments re the religion(s) of the majority the posters should pass without comment. sad.gif

Right, that's me off my soap box - back to the 'owners' of this forum!

Posted by: barddas 08-Oct-2003, 04:07 PM
Again publicly I will thank you Catriona for being the calm Voice of reason.

Thank you

Big whatever in the sky, please let there be Tennents wherever heaven/ valhalla, etc, etc, etc..... LOL! biggrin.gif beer_mug.gif

Posted by: Keltic 08-Oct-2003, 09:15 PM
QUOTE (Catriona @ Oct 8 2003, 06:58 PM)
KELTIC
This site (the whole site, not just the Pagan forum) has always been quite friendly... BUT, just recently I have noticed a number of posts which seem to take exception to the views of many of the members.

This is not good and it is not kind.

I also think you misunderstood Welsh Guy's comments. He takes a little getting used to, but he can't help that, he's Welsh.... (see, even I can express prejudice). WG is one of the least prejudiced people I have had the pleasure to meet online....

Catriona:

I check out this forum to read other views and not to judge those views. If something that I say comes across as being judgmental, I apologize. With WGs comments, I was merely pointing out that Christianity played an important role in the history of the Celts just as I would have if a Christian dismissed the importance of the pre-Christian Celtic era.

About misunderstanding WGs comments.... I am just going to leave that one alone.

RavenWing:

Thank you for the forum and I hope that nothing that I have posted has been perceived as malicious or an attempt to force my views upon others.

Posted by: ranger 08-Oct-2003, 11:09 PM
I agree with you, Keltic. I believe that the one that is protesting the most tends to be quite judgemental themselves.

Posted by: Catriona 09-Oct-2003, 01:28 AM
QUOTE (ranger @ Oct 9 2003, 06:09 AM)
I agree with you, Keltic. I believe that the one that is protesting the most tends to be quite judgemental themselves.

Hello Ranger
Can I assume that you are referring to me - as I seem to be the one that is 'protesting' most about other posters on this forum?

Posted by: ranger 09-Oct-2003, 01:50 PM
You'd be right, Cat. But I'm not one to argue, so that's why I tend to stay away from alot of the forums and stay in the ones I enjoy. Everyone needs a soapbox now and then. biggrin.gif

Posted by: Catriona 09-Oct-2003, 03:29 PM
QUOTE (ranger @ Oct 9 2003, 08:50 PM)
You'd be right, Cat. But I'm not one to argue, so that's why I tend to stay away from alot of the forums and stay in the ones I enjoy. Everyone needs a soapbox now and then.  biggrin.gif

Ranger
Please point out where I've been 'judgemental'.... And, if I have, then I will apologise. I was just pointing out that some of the newer posters on here were being a tad 'tetchy' to those that are professed pagans.... as is their right to be on this forum. After all, they requested this forum, and have every right to post in peace.

BTW only friends call me 'Cat' - others call me by my full name - ie Catriona - the pronounciation of which is Kuh tree uh na (long tree).... Just so you get it right next time. sad.gif

Posted by: Guest 09-Oct-2003, 07:25 PM
Like I said, I'm not one to argue, 'Catriona'. wink.gif

Posted by: Annabelle 09-Oct-2003, 10:31 PM
I'm for the Vulcan Department! Live Long and Prosper!
Now if I can get my finger's in place...................oh hec, beam me up!
Annabelle

Posted by: Celeste of the Stars 31-Oct-2003, 08:42 PM
I would love to add my 2 cents if I may. I am a Wicca/Pagan how ever you want to refer to me, and my husband is an agnostic. Nobody likes being told that they're beliefs are wrong nor do they like having someone elses beliefs pushed onto them. If I'm not mistaken pagans are supposed to be the most tolerant, so can we please have a tolerant forum?

Posted by: oldraven 31-Oct-2003, 09:54 PM
How nice to stumble upon a thread that claims 'Tolerance' in the title, yet shows so little of it in the thread. rolleyes.gif


There should not be a separate forum for Christianity. There should simply be a Religion forum. Separating ourselves IS the entire problem.





Everybody..................CHILL!

beer_mug.gif and have a beer.

Posted by: maryellen 01-Nov-2003, 07:31 AM
oldraven: Though it may be later realized that Christianity teaches to respect other people. Not other religions considered an abomination to God.
I'm not saying anything against the other, just a fact.

Posted by: Dreamer1 01-Nov-2003, 10:10 AM
Oldraven,

I agree with you. There's so much we can learn from each other, though some things may be difficult/painful to confront. Isolationism and antagonism do not help any of us! I've been trying to stay out of the discussions so far, so as not to accidently offend those I'm trying to learn from. Just couldn't keep still now.

Everyone, please mellow out and relax.

Dreamer1

Posted by: Celeste of the Stars1 02-Nov-2003, 03:30 PM
QUOTE (maryellen @ Nov 1 2003, 08:31 AM)
oldraven: Though it may be later realized that Christianity teaches to respect other people. Not other religions considered an abomination to God.
I'm not saying anything against the other, just a fact.

Thats one of many areas that paganism and christianity differ. Christians are taught to respect only those who share they're religous beliefs, and condemn those who don't. Where as pagan are taught to respect everybody and everything and condemn none no matter what .

Posted by: Aaediwen 02-Nov-2003, 09:12 PM
Indeed, this thread raises questions. Many of the threads I've been reading have been cool enough. This one got kindof hot there for a while. Thought I was in the crossfire of a flamewar.

I know there are Christians who can't stand the concept of other religons existing (Heaven forbid that there's another school of thought) And I've read some pagan sites that are pretty harsh on the Christian world. You'll get bad apples in any group I guess

This forum does have a decidedly Pagan title, but since when does that mean we have to sounds like we're driving other religons out here.... How are we going to learn from each other if everyone is playing in their own little sandbox?

Sure, if that's the intent of this specific forum to be specifically Pagan discussion then have at it and create a forum for discussion about every religon represented in the group of us who read these. But let's leave the flame throwers at the door, no matter who posts to what forum.

I don't agree with some of the beliefs stated on these forums, and there are some people who I suspect are a little more closed-minded than I believe is healthy. But I am not going to say anything about who, what, where, when, or why I feel that way because for one, that's against the core of my own belief to say that someone is right or wrong. Plus, I would be wrong to say someone shouldn't post what they have to say.

So what if we have some Christian views in a Pagan forum, or vice versa? so long as they are relivant to the topic, I'd hope that their presence would help add some color to it by introducing another perspective on whatever the topic is.

I disagree with several people, and have trouble accepting some people's beliefs. However, that's my problem, not theirs. That's an evil that I should deal with on my own terms and not inflict on others. Believe me, I wish I had an easier time accepting people's beliefs than I do, perticularly views that are in strict conflict with my own. Whoever believes like that, believes they're right for a reason. Who am I to say they're wrong or right?

note: On the comment of single minded Christians or Pagans, Seems like I notice each to be a minority in their group.

Posted by: McHaggis 02-Nov-2003, 11:21 PM
Good points! I personally have tried to live my life as if there were no higher powers and no afterlife. That means that ultimate responsibility for action and reaction lies on my shoulders alone and I only get one life to make the best of it and not mess up anybody else's trip along the way.

Of course, I do the above with the complete understanding I could be and most probably am completely wrong!

RON

Posted by: andylucy 03-Nov-2003, 04:27 AM
QUOTE (Celeste of the Stars1 @ Nov 2 2003, 03:30 PM)

Thats one of many areas that paganism and christianity differ. Christians are taught to respect only those who share they're religous beliefs, and condemn those who don't. Where as pagan are taught to respect everybody and everything and condemn none no matter what .

Whoa, Celeste of the Stars1.

I am a very, very conservative Catholic. But I look for the good in every faith tradition until they show me that there is no good in them. I do NOT judge Wiccans because their faith conflicts with what I happen to believe.

It was a long faith journey for me to get where I am. I think that I examined/practiced every tradition, except possibly Shinto. biggrin.gif I travelled the pagan route for several years, and found that it was not for me.

Even John Paul II says that we should always look for the good in all religions, even though we may not agree with them. That is why he has gone to several interfaith prayer meetings. These included Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Buddhists, Pagans, and some whose affiliation escapes me.

So let's all just relax and worship (or not wink.gif ) as we see fit. Debate is great. I personally feel that educated conversation between persons of differing viewpoints is the best way to grow intellectually and spiritually. But generalizations (by anyone) tend to dampen the exchange of ideas, because people tend to become defensive when others generalize about them. Not that I've ever done that, snicker, snicker, snort angel_not.gif .

Just my tuppence.

Andy

Posted by: oldraven 03-Nov-2003, 10:31 AM
Thank you andylucy. You took the words right out of my mouth.

This
QUOTE
Christians are taught to respect only those who share they're religous beliefs, and condemn those who don't.
all depends on the teacher. Yes, some ministers/pastors/priests will tell you to avoid all other religions. Yet some teach you about other religions and their beliefs in a way of respect. Every pastor I had growing up leaned toward the first. They didn't speak of other religions at all, more so avoided the subject. But the last pastor I had before I left the church (not for diferences, I just lost the draw to the building, faith was disapearing in that church, and I wasn't about to watch it die around me) made an effort to teach us youth about what others believe. So that we can understand and respect all other people. Even when I made some slightly rude remarks, being young and supid as I was, he simply ignored me and went on with the lesson.

Please, I don't generalize about paganism, so don't do the same about Christianity. I do admit I have an easier time accepting Bhuddism than Paganism, but I'm trying. Some ideas are just ground in very early. Angela has a sort of mixed belief. She believes things from many religions, including Christian and Pagan beliefs.

It's not easy, but the only way to have someone respect your religion is to respect everyone elses. And that, I can proudly say, is where I stand. king.gif

Posted by: barddas 03-Nov-2003, 12:29 PM
I was under the assumption that everything had "chilled" since there hadn't been a posting on this thread in 21 days. At least until this past weekend......< sigh> cool.gif

Posted by: oldraven 03-Nov-2003, 12:35 PM
Sorry Barddas. Just blame me for being a n00b. laugh.gif

Posted by: barddas 03-Nov-2003, 01:07 PM
QUOTE (oldraven @ Nov 3 2003, 02:35 PM)
Sorry Barddas. Just blame me for being a n00b. laugh.gif

It's all good m'friend. wink.gif Just preventative damage control....LOL!


Have one on me beer_mug.gif

Posted by: Celeste of the Stars1 03-Nov-2003, 01:24 PM
QUOTE (andylucy @ Nov 3 2003, 05:27 AM)
Whoa, Celeste of the Stars1.

I am a very, very conservative Catholic. But I look for the good in every faith tradition until they show me that there is no good in them. I do NOT judge Wiccans because their faith conflicts with what I happen to believe.

So let's all just relax and worship (or not wink.gif ) as we see fit. Debate is great. I personally feel that educated conversation between persons of differing viewpoints is the best way to grow intellectually and spiritually. But generalizations (by anyone) tend to dampen the exchange of ideas, because people tend to become defensive when others generalize about them. Not that I've ever done that, snicker, snicker, snort angel_not.gif .

Just my tuppence.

Andy

I'm sorry if I pissed anybody of it was not my intention. I was merely speaking from my own past. I was raised Catholic and Southern Baptist. 2 of the more "strick" religions I guess you could say. I befriended a pagan girl when I was 8 and mother went to our pastor and asked him if it was ok if I was friends with this girl. Our pastor went through the roof and made me come work for him everyday after school in his office for 3 yrs so I "would no longer stray from the flock". That is were I was getting my statement from.
Needless to say when he found out I was a pagan he vowed never to speak to me again (big loss).
To all those I offended please forgive me. Like I said this was not my intention. smile.gif

Posted by: oldraven 03-Nov-2003, 02:10 PM
Which was the purpose of my post. You will find fanatics in every group, be it religious or cultural. Your Pastor was of course a fanatic. A closed minded fellow. For every one of those, I'm sure you'll find a multitude of Christians like me. In order to prove my faith, I am open to all beliefs. If I felt threatened by other religions, wouldn't that just mean I was weak in my own? If I can't accept other religious beliefs then I've failed as a Christian.

Posted by: barddas 03-Nov-2003, 02:15 PM
QUOTE (Celeste of the Stars1 @ Nov 3 2003, 03:24 PM)

I'm sorry if I pissed anybody of it was not my intention. I was merely speaking from my own past. I was raised Catholic and Southern Baptist. 2 of the more "strick" religions I guess you could say. I befriended a pagan girl when I was 8 and mother went to our pastor and asked him if it was ok if I was friends with this girl. Our pastor went through the roof and made me come work for him everyday after school in his office for 3 yrs so I "would no longer stray from the flock". That is were I was getting my statement from.
Needless to say when he found out I was a pagan he vowed never to speak to me again (big loss).
To all those I offended please forgive me. Like I said this was not my intention. smile.gif

Not offended here.... just making sure the peace is kept... and everyone is* respectful* wink.gif

That's all..... smile.gif

Posted by: Dreamer1 03-Nov-2003, 09:52 PM
Celeste,

I hope you were able to keep your friendship going , even through the interference of the pastor. I agree that he was a fanatic, and **very wrong** to try to prevent you from learning about anything but what he personally believed. How can we all grow spiritually, with an honest and deeply-felt faith, if we aren't free to examine all religions to find our own home? (I hope this makes sense. huh.gif)

Dreamer1

Posted by: McHaggis 03-Nov-2003, 11:31 PM
Well, I'm certainly not offended by anything I've read here. Neither offended or threatened. I think folks have been pretty well behaved and I am happy that everyone gets their say and can get their point across.

I've always taken an intellectual approach to the subject of religions and find it all most enlightening....please continue!

RON

Posted by: andylucy 03-Nov-2003, 11:46 PM
Celeste,

No, I was not offended by anything you wrote smile.gif . I just thought I saw a generalization about Christians that wasn't entirely balanced. It would be like me stating that when I was experimenting in Pagan religions, Pagans were self involved buggerbums ( a word invented by my 5-year old- I like it biggrin.gif ). That would be totally unfair, as many of the Pagans I encountered were very helpful and considerate of a novice. There were some #@%$#&@ types, but they were in the minority.

I realize that some Christians are so narrow-minded that their breadth of thought could easily fit on the edge of a razor-blade. But many of us are a bit more comfortable in our beliefs than that. As oldraven said, if I can't accept someone for who they are and what they believe, then I've failed as a Christian. And if, by my personal example, I exude intolerance and bad will, then I betray the Christian ideals that I hold very dear.

Just my tuppence; let the debate continue.

Andy

Posted by: Celeste of the Stars1 05-Nov-2003, 01:20 AM
QUOTE (Dreamer1 @ Nov 3 2003, 10:52 PM)
Celeste,

I hope you were able to keep your friendship going , even through the interference of the pastor. I agree that he was a fanatic, and **very wrong** to try to prevent you from learning about anything but what he personally believed. How can we all grow spiritually, with an honest and deeply-felt faith, if we aren't free to examine all religions to find our own home? (I hope this makes sense. huh.gif)

Dreamer1

Unfortunatly no. My mother wouldn't let me. She told all my teachers to make sure we were kept apart.

Powered by Invision Power Board (https://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (https://www.invisionpower.com)