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 Accurate Bible?, controversy |
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reddrake79  |
Posted: 29-Jun-2004, 06:07 PM
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Braveheart Member
Group: Celtic Nation
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ok. In discussing several topics I have noticed people either completely believeing the Bible, Believing only part of it or believing none of it. I put the following under another topic earlier but moved it here because it realy wasn't about the topic in that string. It's a little lengthy and I am sure that some people will disagree with me.
There are problems with texts written by man, yes. The Bible was written by men, yes. Can God do anything, yes.
I believe in a God that is a distinct entity. An individual, existing in three presonalities but unified. God also claims to divinly protect his word. God claims it and I believe it.
If an all powerful God could not protect his precious word from us meddling humans, then He is not worthy of my faith or devotion. If the Bible is wrong in some part then God did not protect it and is not worthy of my faith or devotion. How do I know which part He did choose to protect if any? The Bible has proven to be accurate in History, Science, philosophy, as well as other areas. Why not religion and what it says about the hereafter?
The Old Testament is what the Jews have believed for millenia. Quite possibly the oldest thriving religion still around. The New Testament is what Christians believe, both Catholics, Protestants, and others. I myself am a protestant. The protestant reformation came about because a catholic priest read the Bible (oh no! mock horror) and realized that several prevalent thoughts about the Bible were errored. This is an example of man meddling with the Bible but the Bible not changing. Most errors about the Bible come because the person has not read all of it. The Bible was the influence for the majority of pioneering scientists to pursue their theories or modify them. The Bible is quite possibly the most famous book in the entire world. It is used as a synonym in the english language for any book that is difinitive about its subject. It was the main reason for education in early america. The Bible is the most powerful book on the planet. It has caused wars, it has stopped wars, Queen Victoria said it was the reason for English prosperity. It reveals LAWS of nature before they were officially discoverd by Science. There are more copies of the Bible than any other book.
These are some reasons why I believe the Bible. The main reason is because God said he would protect it. That is why I use it in my arguments. It is difinative for most religions.
My God is capable of protecting His word.
This is not about interpretations of the Bible (i.e. King james, NIV, NASB, etc..)
This is a question of faith and belief. As is the case with all questions of religious teachings. What is your faith in?
Here is the major topic of this string. Is the Bible Accurate? Why or why not?
This is also kinda of a poll. I am a little curious as to what people think about the Bible.
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Friendship, Love, and Loyalty
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| SCShamrock |
Posted: 30-Jun-2004, 02:51 AM
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Celtic Guardian
Group: Celtic Nation
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| QUOTE (Shadows @ 29-Jun-2004, 10:53 PM) | The one today is so far removed from the original Greek texts that it in no way resembles the word of "god"!
There are many works hidden in the vaults of the Vatican that would open your eyes and make you real in your faith... I have seen some! |
Shadows, I have to question this. You say which Bible. Then you say the one today is so far removed from the original Greek Texts.
So, which one today? You seem to be referring to a particular one when you say it "is so far removed" but don't explain which one you are talking about.
As for the works hidden in the Vatican? If they are hidden then how did you see them? If the ultra-wealthy religious elites that operate in the Vatican wish to hide something, don't you think it would be truly hidden? Also, you called them works. I can't believe you would give these mysterious texts any Devine relevance if you casually refer to them as "works". But you then go on to say that these works would make someone "real" in their faith. That's quite a sweeping statement. If you have this wonderful insight into true faith, then why aren't you compelled to share that with the world?
You mention the Greek texts. The New Testament is where you will find mostly Greek. However, there are actually three languages that are prevalent in the original scripts. Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. Were you actually stating that only the ancient Greek texts were truly God inspired, or were you saying that the Hebrew and Aramaic texts were accurately translated, included, and canonized?
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The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859
Education: that which reveals to the wise, and conceals from the stupid, the vast limits of their knowledge.
~Mark Twain
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| barddas |
Posted: 30-Jun-2004, 06:24 AM
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Offical sacrifice to the guitar gods-Play til you bleed
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Here is a complete list of Books of the bible. With the inclusion of the 'missing' books as well.( ie Thomas ( which was to be the only book written while Christ lived) etc....)
Check out the site Comparative Religions.com link below
Apocrypha
Full Index
NEW TESTAMENT APOCRYPHA complete index
1. Pseudo-Jesus apocrypha
1.1 The Epistles of Jesus to Abgarus
2. Pseudo-apostolic (general) apocrypha
2.1 Teachings of the Twelve Apostles (Didache)
2.2 Epistle of the Apostles
3. Pseudo-apostolic (specific - by Apostle) apocrypha
3.1 - Andrew -
3.1.1 Acts of Andrew
3.1.2 Acts of Andrew and Matthias*
3.2 - Barnabas -
3.2.1 Acts of Barnabas*
3.2.2 Epistle of Barnabas
3.2.3 Gospel of Barnabas
3.3 - Bartholomew -
3.3.1 Gospel of Bartholomew
3.3.2 Martyrdom of Bartholomew*
3.4 - James -
3.4.1 Apocryphon of James
3.4.2 Book of James (protevangelium)
3.4.3 First Apocalypse of James
3.4.4 Second Apocalypse of James
3.5 - John -
3.5.1 Acts of John
3.5.2 Acts of John the Theologian*
3.5.3 Apocryphon of John (long version)
3.5.4 Book of John the Evangelist
3.5.5 Revelation of John the Theologian*
3.6 - Mark -
3.6.1 Secret Gospel of Mark
3.7 - Matthew -
3.7.1 Acts and Martyrdom of St. Matthew the Apostle*
3.7.2 The Martyrdom of Matthew
3.8 - Nicodemus -
3.8.1 Gospel (Acts) of Nicodemus (aka The Acts of Pontius Pilate)
3.9 - Peter -
3.9.1 Acts of Peter
3.9.2 Acts of Peter and Andrew
3.9.3 Apocalypse of Peter - version 1
3.9.4 Apocalypse of Peter - version 2
3.9.5 Gospel of Peter
3.9.6 Letter of Peter to Philip
3.10 - Philip -
3.10.1 Acts of Philip
3.10.2 Gospel of Philip
3.11 - Thaddeus -
3.11.1 Acts of Thaddeus (Epistles of Pontius Pilate)*
3.11.2 Teaching of Thaddeus
3.12 - Thomas -
3.12.1 Acts of Thomas
3.12.2 Apocalypse of Thomas
3.12.3 Book of Thomas the Contender
3.12.4 Consumation of Thomas
3.12.5 Gospel of Thomas
4. Pseudo-Pauline apocrypha
4.1 3 Corinthians
4.2 Acts 29
4.3 Acts of Paul
4.4 Acts of Paul and Thecla
4.5 Acts of Peter and Paul*
4.6 Acts of Xanthippe and Polyxena
4.7 Apocalypse of Paul
4.8 Apocalypse of Paul - other version
4.9 Epistle to the Laodiceans
4.10 Revelation of Paul*
4.11 Paul and Seneca
5. Infancy Gospels apocrypha
5.1 Arabic Infancy Gospel
5.2 First Infancy Gospel of Jesus Christ
5.3 Infancy Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew
5.4 Infancy Gospel of Thomas - Greek A
5.5 Infancy Gospel of Thomas - Greek B
5.6 Infancy Gospel of Thomas - Latin
6. Relatives of Jesus apocrypha
6.1 Gospel of Mary
6.2 Gospel of the Nativity of Mary
6.3 Book of John concerning the dormition of Mary (transitus mariæ)*
6.4 History of Joseph the Carpenter*
6.5 Narrative of Joseph of Arimathaea
7. Sub-canonical (disputed canon) apocrypha
7.1 Shepherd of Hermas
7.2 II Clement
7.3 Diatession
7.4 Gospel of the Lord (Marcion)
8. Other significant Epistles and pseudomynous writings and apocrypha
8.1 I Clement
8.2 Avenging of the Saviour
8,3 Epistles of Pontius Pilate
8.4 Letter of Aristeas
8.5 Sentences of the Sextus
8.6 Alexandrians
8.7 Revelations of Stephen
8.8 Muratonian Canon (fragment)
9. Fragments of lost apocryphal books
9.1 Gospel of the Ebionites
9.2 Gospel of the Egyptians
9.3 Egerton Gospel (Egerton Papyrus 2)*
9.4 Gospel of the Hebrews
9.5 Traditions of Mattias
9.6 Gospel of the Nazaraeans
9.7 Preaching of Peter
10. Apostolic Constitutions (Didascalia Apostolorum)
10.1 Book 1
10.2 Book 2
10.3 Book 3
10.4 Book 4
10.5 Book 5
10.6 Book 6
10.7 Book 7
10.8 Book 8
11. Psuedo-Sibylline Oracles
11.0 Preface
11.1 Chapter I
11.2 Chapter II
11.3 Chapter III
11.4 Chapter IV
11.5 Chapter V
11.6 Chapter VI
11.7 Chapter VII
11.8 Chapter VIII
11.9 Chapter XI
11.10 Chapter XII
11.11 Chapter XIII
11.12 Chapter XIV
11.13 Appendices - Fragments
* copyright work, used with express permission.
** I have no idea why the numbering system of this work jumps from 8 to 11. I presume that the error lies with the Roman numerals, with IX (9) mistakenly written as XI (11) at the source. However, it is my policy not to change textual information, so it remains.
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BARDDAS BLOG/WEB SITECo Founder/Member of the KDCMusic is holy, art is sacred, and creativity is powerEveryday is EARTH DAY to a farmer "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." Oscar Wilde Some men are drawn to oceans, they cannot breathe unless the air is scented with a salty mist. Others are drawn to land that is flat, and the air is sullen and is leaden as August. My people were drawn to mountains- Earl Hamner Jr.
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| birddog20002001 |
Posted: 30-Jun-2004, 06:40 AM
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Celtic Guardian
Group: Isle of Man
Posts: 663
Joined: 12-Sep-2003
Zodiac: Rowan
Realm: North Carolina
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There are many books that the Church had "taken" from the public in order to make sure the public could be pushed into the direction they wanted, some of the early cults of Christianity were completely different than anything observable in the Church today , for example the Gnostics. Also some books were removed due to repetition of other books ( the gospels are accounts based on other works and often repeat them selves). Here are a few examples of the missing books.
The Book of the Secrets of Enoch
The Book of Jubilees
Haggadah
Manichaean Creation Myths
The Secret Book of John
On the origin of the World
The Apocalypse of Adam
Kabbalah
The Dead Sea Scrolls (many books)
The Gospel of Thomas
The Secret Gospel of Mark
The Apocryon of James
the Gospel of Bartholomew
The Gospel of Nicodemus
At least 5 infancy Gospels
the Acts of John, Peter, Paul, Andrew, and Thomas.
At least 16 accounts of the Apocalypse
Simon Magnus
and many other, If you look at the names of those that have written the books nany of them are names of the disiples we learned as children and wondered what did they do why didn't they write, well the did and it did not fit with the cannonical policy of the Church.
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"when a person is prepared to die for a cause, and indeed to glory in such a death, it impossible to supress him or the cause it represents." Jawaharlal Nehru
"Only the suppressed word is dangerous." Ludwig Borne
"All of our freedoms are a single bundle, all must be secure if any is to be preserved." Dwight David Eisenhower
"All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are both immortal and divine." Socrates
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| Kamchak |
Posted: 30-Jun-2004, 11:50 AM
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Master At Arms
Group: Scotland
Posts: 245
Joined: 13-Jun-2004
Zodiac: Hazel
Realm: Southern U.S.
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| QUOTE (birddog20002001 @ 30-Jun-2004, 07:40 AM) | There are many books that the Church had "taken" from the public in order to make sure the public could be pushed into the direction they wanted, some of the early cults of Christianity were completely different than anything observable in the Church today , for example the Gnostics.
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This is always a very heated topic! When we start a conversation about "religion" and use the term "cult", we have already poked a finger in someones eye. Some of the groups I have heard referred to as "cults are: A football team, the U.S. Marines, etc. To say what you believing is not factual because it is not written in this langauge is an assumption created by man. We are told it is by faith that we believe and that faith is not of ourselves. That faith is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast. If the Bible tells us that the only way to the Father is through Jesus and we believe that to be true then we show our faith in that word. We are never told in the Bible that we must change the way everyone believes to believe this one thing! We are told that we are responsible to tell them what we believe no more than that. To argue that I am right and you are wrong or the other way around is not part of the equation. God gave each of us a free will to chose on our own and that is what each of us must do and do alone. If I say here is a free gift, for you to have this gift you must pick it up and take it as your own. If you believe the gift to be free you can do no more than tell others hey, that guy gave me a free gift. If you go to him he will give you one also. If the other person says he did not give you a free gift what more can you do but say "go to him yourself and see if he gives you a free gift." We will all make our own discission, and each of us will be accountable for that discission.
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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ![SIZE=7][COLOR=green][CENTER]
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| birddog20002001 |
Posted: 30-Jun-2004, 01:35 PM
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Celtic Guardian
Group: Isle of Man
Posts: 663
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Realm: North Carolina
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| QUOTE | There are many books that the Church had "taken" from the public in order to make sure the public could be pushed into the direction they wanted, some of the early cults of Christianity were completely different than anything observable in the Church today , for example the Gnostics.
This is always a very heated topic! When we start a conversation about "religion" and use the term "cult", we have already poked a finger in someones eye. Some of the groups I have heard referred to as "cults are: A football team, the U.S. Marines, etc. |
Perhaps my choice of words was not the most clear. I was refering to seperate individual groups in Judeo-Christian history as a cult, I was not using the traditional definition of a cult that is taken in a negative context such as a secret group with an agenda seperate from mainstrean society but I was using it as A group of people with unique creeds and beliefs and goals. In this context the Marines and football teams can correctly be refered to as a cult The Marines recite the Riflemans Creed They "believe" that it is part of their calling to protect the United States and it's people from all enemies foreign and domestic, and they take an oath to do so and they train in order to make that goal a priority one that is greater than the sum total of their lives.
Each individual branch of the Church including the Catholic Church are in fact cults branches off shooting from the same tree. Protestantisim is the offspring of Catholic Church which was created as a protest to Jadaeism as it was practiced 2,000 years ago.
The Jewish Rabbinical council even states that the first five books (The Pentauch) is mythic history and did not happen.
In Genisis there are actually several creation of man stories and you can see that they are independent of each other is you read it strait through.
Also there is two stories written with two seperate protagonists but the same antagonist a king (and this is from a long memory so forgive me if I am wrong) Abraham and Sari come to a foreign land he tells her to pretend that she is his sister so he will not be killed so the king can marry her. The king sleeps with her and a plague befals the land. The king does not know why eventually he finds out and sends Abraham out of the country for decieving the king and allowing him to commit adultery. That exact story is repeated I believe in the same book mayby just a few chapters later by the same king with a different couple.
Also Moses wrote the first five books how did he write about his funeral?
I was raised by a Catholic father and a Southern Baptist mother they damned each other to hell as heretics every week, I am agnostic.
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| WizardofOwls |
Posted: 30-Jun-2004, 06:55 PM
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Wanderer and Vagabond
Group: Celtic Nation
Posts: 5,142
Joined: 12-Mar-2004
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Realm: Wytheville, Virginia
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| QUOTE (birddog20002001 @ 30-Jun-2004, 03:35 PM) | | Also there is two stories written with two seperate protagonists but the same antagonist a king (and this is from a long memory so forgive me if I am wrong) Abraham and Sari come to a foreign land he tells her to pretend that she is his sister so he will not be killed so the king can marry her. The king sleeps with her and a plague befals the land. The king does not know why eventually he finds out and sends Abraham out of the country for decieving the king and allowing him to commit adultery. That exact story is repeated I believe in the same book mayby just a few chapters later by the same king with a different couple. |
Actually, Birddog, the information you give here is incorrect. In neither case did the king sleep with the wife. The first instance, with Abraham and Sarah, is found in Genesis 20:1-17. The second, with Isaac and Rebekah, is in Genesis 26:1-11.
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Slàn agus beannachd,
Allen R. Alderman
'S i Alba tìr mo chridhe. 'S i Gàidhlig cànan m' anama.
Scotland is the land of my heart. Gaelic is the language of my soul.
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) But they are responsible for the inclusion of the Apocrypha in the Old Testament, something even the Authors of the Old Testament (the Jews) do not agree with.
