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> Is Islamic Terrorism World War 3?, A few can control many
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Shamalama 
Posted: 30-Mar-2004, 11:39 AM
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There are three news stories today (30 March 2004) concerning Islamic terrorism and possible attempts to kill innocent civilians.

(1) An al Qaeda plot to blast London was dramatically foiled by police today. Seven hundred police swooped in a series of 6am raids in the capital and the Home Counties. They found half a tonne of fertiliser explosives - enough for a series of terror "spectaculars". The terrorist suspects arrested by police are believed to have chosen "soft targets" for bombings including pubs and clubs. One of the suspects being held had a job at Gatwick Airport, immediately raising concerns over airlines and passengers. A total of eight men - all of them British citizens of Pakistani descent, three of them teenagers - were arrested in the operation, with police from five forces searching a total of 24 addresses across London and the South-East.
http://www.thisislondon.com/til/jsp/module...?itemId=9969473

(2) Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, al Qaeda's purported operations chief, has told U.S. interrogators that the group had been planning attacks on the Library Tower in Los Angeles and the Sears Tower in Chicago on the heels of the September 11, 2001, terror strikes. Those plans were aborted mainly because of the decisive U.S. response to the New York and Washington attacks, which disrupted the terrorist organization's plans so thoroughly that it could not proceed, according to transcripts of his conversations with interrogators. Mohammed told interrogators that he and Ramzi Yousuf, his nephew who was behind an earlier attack on the World Trade Center in 1993, had leafed through almanacs of American skyscrapers when planning the first operation.
http://www.washtimes.com/world/20040330-12...20655-9785r.htm

(3) A terrorist bombing on the scale of the Madrid attacks has been averted with the arrests of four Abu Sayyaf members and the confiscation of 36kg of TNT, the Philippine President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo said on Tuesday. Mrs Arroyo, who faces a tough campaign for re-election on May 10, said the explosives were to have been used to bomb trains and shopping malls in Manila. 'We have prevented a Madrid-level attack in the metropolis,' she said, referring to the sprawling capital of more than 10 million people. She said one of the men arrested claimed responsibility for a Feb 27 explosion and fire aboard a passenger ferry that killed more than 100 people. Officials have not concluded what caused that disaster.
http://www.straitstimes.com/latest/story/0...,243078,00.html

Let's not forget what happened in Spain, and that there is intelligence that Islamic terrorists attacked for the sole purpose of altering/assuring Spain's socialist election. In a statement by the purported terrorists was the claim, "We change and destroy countries," the statement said. "We even influence the international economy, and this is God's blessing to us."
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wi...world-headlines

Americans should never forget 9/11, and the murder of 3000 innocent people.

Bin Laden's 1996 fatwa states that because the US staged the liberation of Kuwait on Saudi soil, the Zionist/Christian crusaders should die.

Hamas says that all Jews (and the US as Israel's friend) should die, regardless of the existance of a Palestinian state.

The majority of the attacks are against innocent civilians, not against either the military or the government. The attacks are meant to send a message.

Is this type of terrorism simply now a way of life around the world? Is there a solution? Do you want Israel to move to South America? Do you favor removing all US interests and personnel out of the Middle East?

Make no mistake - this is not a defensive act against any one party. Radical Islamic terrorism is an offensive attack on anyone not Muslim. I do not believe they will allow co-existance. We will either fight - and maybe die - against it, or we will bow down to it.



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tsargent62 
Posted: 30-Mar-2004, 12:06 PM
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Islamic terrrorists hate the US largely because of our backing of Israel. IMHO, Israel causes their own problems. They say they want peace. They asks the terrorist organizations to stop attacking. Then they launch missiles at the very Palestinian leaders they are asking for peace from. And they wonder why the Arab world hates them.

The US needs to roundly condemn Israeli aggression against the Palestinians. What strategic advantage is there in standing with Israel? I don't get it. It seems to me that having the Arab world on our side would be far more advantageous.


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oldraven 
Posted: 30-Mar-2004, 12:54 PM
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It all depends on how you look at it tsargent. Israel at least speaks of peace. Palestine has no intention of it ever coming to that. There was ONE attack on America, and we went to war. Israel has been asking for peace for ages, and still get bombed, and bombed and bombed. How long should they take these attacks before retaliating? They've made threats for years that if the Palestinians don't stop their reign of terror, then Israel will fight back. And when they do, they are condemned. So, the US should fight for peace, but Israel shouldn't? If they bombed Canada, I'd be willing to stand for my people, no matter how much I hate war and violence.

Make no mistake. This IS genocide. And that can't be averted with talks of peace. Take a look at the history books, and see how this sort of thing had to be dealt with, over and over.


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Shamalama 
Posted: 30-Mar-2004, 01:17 PM
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Nov 2, 1917 - British issued the Balfour Declaration, viewed by Jews and Arabs as promising a ?National Home? for the Jews in Palestine.

1936-1939 - Arab Revolt led by Haj Amin Al-Husseini.

May 15, 1948 - Israel War of Independence (1948 War). Declaration of Israel as the Jewish State; British leave Palestine; Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia declared war on Israel. Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian invasion began.

April 3, 1949 - Armistice - Israel and Arab states agree to armistice. Israel gained about 50% more territory than was originally allotted to it by the UN Partition Plan. The war created over 780,000 Palestinian refugees who fled or were evicted from Jewish held areas. Gaza fell under the jurisdiction of Egypt. The West Bank of the Jordan was occupied by Jordan and later annexed.

Oct. 29, 1956 - Suez Campaign. In retaliation for a series of escalating border raids as well as the closure of the straits of Tiran and Suez canal to Israeli shipping, and to prevent Egyptian use of newly acquired Soviet arms in a war, Israel invades the Sinai peninsula and occupies it for several months, with French and British collaboration. Israel withdraws after a UN peace keeping force is placed in Sinai, and US guarantees right of passage for Israeli shipping through the Straits of Tiran.

May, 1964 - PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization) founded with the aim of destroying Israel. The Palestinian National Charter (1968) officially called for liquidation of Israel.

May, 1967 - Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser closes the straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping and dismisses UN peacekeeping force. Negotiations with US to reopen the Straits of Tiran fail.

June 5-11, 1967 - 6-day war. Israel destroys the Egyptian air force on the ground, conquers and occupies Sinai and Gaza, then conquers the West Bank from Jordan, and Golan Heights from Syria. UN resolution 242 called for Israeli withdrawal, establishment of peace.

Oct. 6, 1973 - Yom Kippur War (October War). In a surprise attack on the Jewish day of atonement, Egypt retook the Suez canal and a narrow zone on the other side. Syria reconquered the Golan Heights. Israel succeeded in pushing back the Syrians and threatening Damascus.

March 26, 1979 - Peace treaty signed between Egypt and Israel.

June 6, 1982 - Massive Israeli invasion of Lebanon to fight PLO. UN Security Council Resolution 509 demands that Israel withdraw all its military forces forthwith, but Israel advances rapidly to Beirut, surrounding the capital by 13 Jun. Israeli cabinet is split on the sudden expansion of the war, beyond the 40 KM limit originally declared by Sharon.

Sept. 13, 1993 - Oslo Declaration of Principles - Israel and PLO agree to mutual recognition, Yasser Arafat and PLO will be allowed to return to Gaza. PLO and Palestinian leadership renounce violence and use of terrorism, and agree to revise the PLO charter to remove chapters referring to destruction of Israel. Over the next, years, Israel withdraws from a small area that is given to Palestinian sovereignty, a larger area is given to Palestinian civil control only, while a third area of the West Bank and Gaza strip remains under total Israeli control. Israel did not dismantle any settlements, and the number of settlers and new settlements increased considerably. Palestinian groups did not remove their charter goals of destroying Israel; the PNA continued to finance, organize and encourage terror activities.

Sept. 28, 2000 - Palestinians initiated riots after Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount, which is also the location of the Haram as Sharif holy to Muslims. Violence was apparently encouraged by Fatah Tanzim, as admitted by Marwan Barghouhi. Violence escalated rapidly from rock throwing to machine gun and mortar fire, suicide bombings and lethal road ambushes, including some incidents instigated by settlers against Palestinians.

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tsargent62 
Posted: 30-Mar-2004, 01:22 PM
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Yes, but if you look at history, Israel has a habit of attacking its neighbours. They haven't exactly been peaceful either. It's just really stupid to have a peace process going, talks proceeding, and then turn around and attack the people you're trying to negotiate a peace with.
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maisky 
Posted: 30-Mar-2004, 01:57 PM
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Good post, sir!

There are two factors generating anti-US anger world-wide. The unquestioning support of ANYTHING Israel does and the unprovoked invasion of Iraq. Post 9/11 we had world support for the war on terror. We have managed to piss away that support. sad.gif


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Randy 
Posted: 30-Mar-2004, 02:01 PM
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If the US does not hold back Israel the entire middle east will be speaking Yiddish. There military capabilities are no joke after years of our support. Millions of innocients would die on both sides.
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oldraven 
Posted: 30-Mar-2004, 02:12 PM
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Yes, but it's quite a statement to even talk about obtaining peace when your people are being killed on a daily basis. Just remember, one side is at least willing to live in coexistance.

Thank you Shamalama. I actually didn't know a lot of the history of fighting in that region. Well, I knew it was going on, just not the politics of it. Just call me a little less ignorant. wink.gif I still stand by my opinion that peace talks are at least a step in the right direction. Some people, on the other hand, will never agree to peace, no matter how much progress is made, and that thought scares me. Doesn't surprise me though.

Also, there's a huge difference between military attacks and bus bombings.
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Catriona 
Posted: 31-Mar-2004, 05:25 AM
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I remember the 1967 War very well indeed. I was in my teens then. Maybe because Scotland is nearer to Israel, it made a great impact in Europe - don't forget the memories of the holocaust were still being taught to all Europeans with the phrase 'never again'...

A friend of mine (Catholic, not Jewish) volunteered to join the Israeli fighters during the six day war (of course, we didn't know it was going to be so short). He was 18 years old... He was killed by a sniper, in the days after the end of the 'War'.... I remember attending his funeral in St Mary's Cathedral in Edinburgh.... the congregation was mainly young people... but it was touching to see that a group of elderly and middle-aged Jews from the local synagogue also attended. I still miss Henry, he would have been a shining star in some field or other had he lived....

My Dad served in what was then called Palestine after WWII. The stories that he told us defied belief. The Stern Gang killed British troops... And the Israelis later made one of the leaders of the Gang, their Prime Minister, Menachem Begin. Soooo, you see, one man's terrorist is another man's Prime Minister cool.gif

Israelis have made the desert bloom - and I think that most experts agree that only western looking people could have done so - after all, the Palestinians had that land prior to the Balfour Declaration and did absolutely NOTHING with it .... now many of the Palestinians who have infertile farms look greedily upon those farms and kibbutzes..

It is a scandal that only one Arab nation took in Palestinians in the late 40s - most refused to give them right of entry or allowed them citizenship. This was to be a propoganda tool to ensure that the Western world would believe that it was all the fault of the Israelis. THAT is the reason for the refugee camps still being in operation to this day...

The question of Israel/Palestine is not something that can be solved easily. But the 'Berlin Wall' built by the Israelis doesn't help, neither does targeting Muslim leaders. BUT the Jews swore that, after the Holocaust, never again would they turn the other cheek. They live by the principle of an eye for an eye.... The Palestinian suicide bombers continue to be funded by other Arab nations - and sadly, there appears to be a never-ending supply of gullible young men (and latterly, women) to carry out these deeds.. When you cannot sit in a cafe, or get on a bus in your OWN country without fearing death.... How must that make the Israelis feel?

The large sums of money (private and Government) supplied to Israel by many countries, but PRINCIPALLY, the USA, has put you (and us) squarely in the firing line of those militant fanatics. The US mantra has always been that they bolster up Israel as a means of having a close ally in the volatile area which supplies so much of the world's energy supplies... Personally, I believe that the very vocal American Jewish lobby has had a great deal more power and influence on US middle-east policy than is good for the true interests of the USA...

My daughter lives in London. I suggested that she try to avoid travelling on the tube (underground) at the moment, and to travel by bus where possible. Now it appears that the fertiliser bomb-making equipment was suspected of being aimed at buses and nightclubs... However, this is still speculation.

I don't have any answers to this problem - I have friends from both the Palestinian and the Israeli communities.

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Shamalama 
Posted: 31-Mar-2004, 09:32 AM
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Hamas has stated that there will be no peace until all Jews are dead. They say that there will be no co-exstance.

If they hold true to their statement, then there are three possible outcomes: (1) all Jews in the Middle East die, (2) all members of Hamas die, (3) a bloody stalemate as it is today.

Or can someone come to the leadership of the Palestinians, and the Jews, that can usher in a philosophy of coexistance?

- On the continued attacks I think there is ample evidence that Israel has tried to target military/tactical leaders while the terrorists try to target civilians.
- Israel sends out soldiers in gunships while the terrorists send out teenage boys and girls.
- Israel has offered up Gaza, Golan Heights, West Bank, and has offered to recognize a Palestinian state. Arafat walked away from the discussions.

If the same people tried to detonate a bomb in your city every week for years on end what would you do?
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maisky 
Posted: 31-Mar-2004, 09:53 AM
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And our genius president has us neck deep in this conflict that has been going on for thousands of years. sad.gif
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oldraven 
Posted: 31-Mar-2004, 10:07 AM
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QUOTE
If the same people tried to detonate a bomb in your city every week for years on end what would you do?


My point exactly.
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Shamalama 
Posted: 31-Mar-2004, 10:16 AM
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QUOTE

And our genius president has us neck deep in this conflict that has been going on for thousands of years.


- Would you advise to step back, wait until there's only one left standing, and then buddy-up to the winner?
- Would you advise not sending financial and military aid to Israel, saying, "It's your fight - good luck"?
- Is it not possible that there are simply some people that won't be satisfied until all infidels (per their definition) worldwide are dead?
- If Arafat and Sharon were sitting at the table with you, what would you advise?
- After watching the news over the last few years, who do you think will make the next attack, and who/what will be the target of the attack? And what does this say about the attackers?

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maisky 
Posted: 31-Mar-2004, 10:19 AM
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QUOTE (Shamalama @ Mar 31 2004, 10:16 AM)
QUOTE

And our genius president has us neck deep in this conflict that has been going on for thousands of years.


- Would you advise to step back, wait until there's only one left standing, and then buddy-up to the winner?
- Would you advise not sending financial and military aid to Israel, saying, "It's your fight - good luck"?
- Is it not possible that there are simply some people that won't be satisfied until all infidels (per their definition) worldwide are dead?
- If Arafat and Sharon were sitting at the table with you, what would you advise?
- After watching the news over the last few years, who do you think will make the next attack, and who/what will be the target of the attack? And what does this say about the attackers?

Bush has GUARANTEED that the US will be the next target.

I do NOT suggest we not support Israel, but that we take steps to oppose their more extreme actions.

By being neck deep, I am refering to the approx. 100,000 US troops involved in a "dry Vietnam".
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Shamalama 
Posted: 01-Apr-2004, 01:18 PM
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QUOTE

Bush has GUARANTEED that the US will be the next target.



I know what you're saying, but it wasn't Bush's fault that Islamic terrorists plowed commercial aircraft into civilian buildings. The US was the Great Satan and marked for death before Bush even ran for President. And I'm of the opinion that nothing the US does, short of complete appeasment, will change that. Something tells me that Gore would be Satan #1 just because he was President no matter what he would have done.

QUOTE

take steps to oppose their more extreme actions



I want to agree with you on this one. You never put out a fire by pouring gasoline on it. But at the same time Israel has been under almost constant attack by certain Arabs ever since the turn of the century. Year after year after year. Hamas wants every Jew dead - period. With that kind of leadership, why not take out the leadership? Israel made an offer to give up Gaza, West Bank, etc., and Arafat turned it down. Why? Because peace is not a debatable option, only death. And I have very little sympathy for a group of people that lie to undereducated teenagers, promising them 72 virgins and a cell phone, if they'll only blow up some innocent civilians. My 3 dogs at home have more respect for life than them.

QUOTE

"dry Vietnam"



Yeah, this is one that we'll not see eye-to-eye on. Saddam's Iraq was a terrorist's DisneyWorld. He provided freedom, shelter, and tons of money to anyone with a grudge against the US. The world is better off without him. Islamic terrorism suffered a huge setback with him gone. Not to mention the humanitarian crimes he did to his own people. And if, and it's a big IF, a democratic government can somehow be established in Iraq then the Arab world just might see a future that they don't see today. And then those WMD's - they were there at one time and *poof* they're no longer there. Believe it that those toys still exist somewhere, they're still for sale to terrorists, and one day they'll be found (probably in Syria, and only after one gets detonated in a democratic city).

Since we can't agree on this one, how about a wee dram and a discussion of baseball?

beer_mug.gif

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