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Leyland 
Posted: 11-Mar-2008, 05:05 PM
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I tend to think of the ancient Celts as groups with likely genetic links sharing a similar language base and cultural preferences for artwork and worship practices in the animism belief who happened to spread thoughout western Europe from central European roots. Eventually separate tribes settled, and a more modern identity evolved into the Seven Nations.

The Seven Nations seem to be what many Americans identify with when mentioning bagpipes, kilts, fiddles and step dancing in the above posts. The La Tene and Hallstatt sites just seem to be the tip of an iceberg concerning who Celts really were. Lots of mystery there.


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Druid_of_Ark 
Posted: 11-Mar-2008, 08:48 PM
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QUOTE (Leyland @ 11-Mar-2008, 05:05 PM)
I tend to think of the ancient Celts as groups with likely genetic links sharing a similar language base and cultural preferences for artwork and worship practices in the animism belief who happened to spread thoughout western Europe from central European roots. Eventually separate tribes settled, and a more modern identity evolved into the Seven Nations.

The Seven Nations seem to be what many Americans identify with when mentioning bagpipes, kilts, fiddles and step dancing in the above posts. The La Tene and Hallstatt sites just seem to be the tip of an iceberg concerning who Celts really were. Lots of mystery there.

Hmmm ye say "who te Celts were". As if the Celts nae langer be, but I for one am Celtic to the kilt. And yes I wear mine and nae not just on "Special Days". When I hear people speak of Celts in the Past tense that gets on the fighting side of me. I mean the Americans are no longer the Poeple they once were but they are still American (though I wonder if that term really applies to the Europeans that came here or should be reserved for the Native Inhabitants) I mean lets be realistic, we gather on this site not to pay homage to a DEAD Race but to unite with others of our own kind, in whom the Cletic Heart beats strong and true. At least that is why I come here, and for the record if the US ever declared war on the Celtic Peoples I would be the first to join the Celtic Resistance Forces and stand against the Invaders!

SAORSA!


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oldraven 
Posted: 12-Mar-2008, 07:05 AM
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DoA, using America as an example of a people would probably be a mistake, since it stretches from the Arctic to the Ant-Arctic and includes many nations and incredibly diverse peoples. wink.gif But you make a good point about us all being here to celebrate the living culture of the Celts, as well as those bits long dead but not forgotten.

Leyland, I see the Celts much like you do. smile.gif Though, I see no end date.


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FamhairCloiche 
Posted: 12-Mar-2008, 09:20 AM
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History has produced five basic versions of what civilization should look like. There are a myriad of differentiations within each, but there seem to be five basic frameworks. The Sino-Indian, Mesopotamian/Egyptian, Mesoamerican, Romano-Hellenic, and the Celto-Germanic (East, Middle, Isolated, West, North). These different groups developed different core value systems. For instance, independence is extremely strong amongst the Celts, but nearly non-existent in the Chinese.
What I think we're trying to reinforce is what we each perceive to be elements of that 'Celtic' worldview. Some say that such a thing has been lost to history, and we're only trying now to resurrect it. But as I look out across the Brittanic-Irish-Canadian-American-Australian world, each system seems to be moving into the Romano-Hellenic ideal that much of continental Europe already embraces. The fact that these societies don't currently embrace this worldview leads me to believe that we are surrounded by a latter-day Celto-Germanic civilization.
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Leyland 
Posted: 12-Mar-2008, 09:53 AM
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Fair enough. Let me re-phrase: The La Tene and Hallstatt sites just seem to be the tip of an iceberg concerning [what the origins of the ancient] Celts' [culture] really were.

Also, I tend to think of modern Celtic culture as 'Gaelic', such as in the name of the language. But that's just me as a history geek differentiating for myself between the ancient Keltoi who sacked Rome and the 'modern' ones I currently love to watch at Highlands games or see perform the greatest music on stage, etc. Every culture moves through stages of change of course.

Also, I personally don't know many fellow Americans who live a daily Celtic-centric life, but I do agree that Americans with Scots/Welsh/Irish origins certainly have historically similar attitudes about freedom, independence and the importance of close family bonds.

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scotborn 
Posted: 12-Mar-2008, 03:08 PM
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There is not a country in the world that does not value freedom, independance and close family bonds.

I have american friends and I have been to america. I personally believe that the psyche of scots is completely at odds with the american psyche. I believe that americans and the scots are two completely differant kind of people.

And my american friends who live in scotland agree.


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FamhairCloiche 
Posted: 12-Mar-2008, 03:54 PM
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QUOTE (scotborn @ 12-Mar-2008, 02:08 PM)
There is not a country in the world that does not value freedom, independance and close family bonds.

True, but there are many cultures for whom those values are not on the top of the list.

I can't speak to the modern Scots' frame of mind, but there is a distinct segment of American society for whom self-reliance and the defense of their way of life at the expense of compromise are core ideals for which there are no higher. Historically "Celtic" ideals.

Many of these people claim Scots-Irish ancestry, have sterotypically northern features, and more than a few of their last names start with "Mc" or "Mac". Though they're more commonly refered to as rednecks.
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UlsterScotNutt 
Posted: 12-Mar-2008, 03:59 PM
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QUOTE (scotborn @ 12-Mar-2008, 03:08 PM)

I personally believe that the psyche of scots is completely at odds with the american psyche. I believe that americans and the scots are two completely differant kind of people.


scotborn, Hi..... Could you speak to this alittle more, I'm curious.
Thanks


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FamhairCloiche 
Posted: 12-Mar-2008, 04:30 PM
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BTW...please don't imagine any vitriol into my last post. There was none intended. I agree with UlsterScotNutt, please share your insights.
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UlsterScotNutt 
Posted: 12-Mar-2008, 04:36 PM
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QUOTE (FamhairCloiche @ 12-Mar-2008, 03:54 PM)


Many of these people claim Scots-Irish ancestry, have sterotypically northern features, and more than a few of their last names start with "Mc" or "Mac". Though they're more commonly refered to as rednecks.

Hillbilly is straight from Scotland!!!
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scotborn 
Posted: 12-Mar-2008, 05:39 PM
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QUOTE (UlsterScotNutt @ 12-Mar-2008, 03:59 PM)
QUOTE (scotborn @ 12-Mar-2008, 03:08 PM)

I personally believe that the psyche of scots is completely at odds with the american psyche. I believe that americans and the scots are two completely differant kind of people.


scotborn, Hi..... Could you speak to this alittle more, I'm curious.
Thanks

No problem, fist of all I would like to say that I am an admirer of americans. I have been to america and americans are a proud tenacious people. As a result I have several american friends here in scotland.

the scots and the americans are very differant from each other in various disciplines.

1. religion, americans are the most religious people in the western world with high church attendance rates and many branches of christianity running through their society, wether this be catholic, protestant or through to evangelist or pentacostal. Religion plays a huge part in americans lives and has great influence in the beliefs of americans, in terms of morality, science and politics.

in scotland the church attendance rate was previously 6 %, typically made up of the elderly , though this is increasing due to polish immigrants. The scots are not religious in anyway, in the last census over 55% of scots described themselves as atheists while the scots that did hold a belief in god where spiritual and not attend any church. It should be noted that asking someones religious convictions in scotland is seen as a political question with very little ties to actual religion. Church and christianity do not play a part in the majority of scots lives. I myself have never known any christians or befriended any christians. going to church once a week would be considered odd to most young people in scotland.

2. americans are highly patriotic and self praising, on the other hand scots are proud to be scottish but are not patriotic like americans and tend to be self depracating. I believe scots are more down to earth in terms of inward and outward perspective. Oscar wilde himself said "patriotism is an act of the vicious" and I tend to believe that

3. I believe americans are far more sentimental than the scots and I have experianced this through american literature, music and culture.

4. Our dialect is completely differant and I belief that scots culture can only be experianced properly through scots dialect. it is hard to explain but my american friends understand it, now that they understand our language.

it is hard for me to right down our differances because I believe americans and scots are so differant that it is hard to pinpoint and construct a sufficiant answer for you. I would advise visiting scotland to see for yourselves.
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scotborn 
Posted: 12-Mar-2008, 05:48 PM
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"I can't speak to the modern Scots' frame of mind, but there is a distinct segment of American society for whom self-reliance and the defense of their way of life at the expense of compromise are core ideals for which there are no higher. Historically "Celtic" ideals."

I understand , and it is what I admire americans for, however they are not celtic ideals. we dont know what celtic ideals are because that culture died off years ago, the celtic term as we know it today comprises of various countries you know of. However the celtic term itself is a romantacised victorian invention that regarded a culture that doesnt exit anymore

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oldraven 
Posted: 13-Mar-2008, 07:00 AM
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QUOTE (scotborn @ 12-Mar-2008, 03:48 PM)
"I can't speak to the modern Scots' frame of mind, but there is a distinct segment of American society for whom self-reliance and the defense of their way of life at the expense of compromise are core ideals for which there are no higher. Historically "Celtic" ideals."

I understand , and it is what I admire americans for, however they are not celtic ideals. we dont know what celtic ideals are because that culture died off years ago, the celtic term as we know it today comprises of various countries you know of. However the celtic term itself is a romantacised victorian invention that regarded a culture that doesnt exit anymore

I'm sure the culture of the ancient Celt in its entirety has gone. But does that mean the culture hasn't evolved? As you trace history, you can see how outside influences have altered the culture time and time again, but has never really erased it (other than the Picts). Elements of the people live on from event to event. New ways are adopted (Bagpipes, Kilts, Christianity) and some new creations come about (Clan Tartans). One perfect example of how the old culture of the Celts survived is in Celtic Christianity itself. So many Deities morphed into Saints. The ways of the old shining through as the Culture evolves.

I'll put it this way. The concept of Rome and Roman Culture brings to most people on this earth an image of Ceasar. Ancient Rome. But Rome and the Roman Culture still exist today, although seemingly completely different. The Empire is politically gone, there is no doubt, but the history of Ancient Rome still shows through. The Vatican itself shows how the Empirical ideal still lives. So are there two Roman Cultures, or one that has evolved and adapted to the ever changing world?

When you refer to America, I assume you are talking of the United States of America. The ideal of the Vicious Patriot isn't true for all of the Americas, so keep that in mind when blanketing two continents.

Talking of wearing a Kilt to show your ties to the Celts is a bit fantastic. Scots, sure. Modern Scots, not really. The term was coined after a great amount of debate about who these ancestral people were. There was never any doubt that they existed, and that their cultural commonalities shone like a beacon (which is why to the rest of the civilised world, the Celts were so easily seen as one people). When you discover a star that no one has seen before, or has simply been forgotten, does that mean it didn't exist before you noticed it? (I bet trees are falling in a forest somewhere) tongue.gif
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Druid_of_Ark 
Posted: 13-Mar-2008, 09:08 AM
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Your point is well made. And another example is found in the "Native Americans", do they still exist? YES, do they daily wear their native outfits, and speak their ancient languages? No. The reason for that is largely that the Europeans that came here largely forced the assimilation of the people that were here first into their foreign culture. That assimilation has relegated the traditions, values, beliefs, and languages of the Natives of this continent to being a thing of curousity. But the fact remains that on Reservations across the US there are those that do hold to the old ways, or at least the best of their ability to hold them, they speak the old languages and follow the old customs. The same is true in Scotland, and abroad where Scots gather, they hold to varied degree. In Scotland there are to this day those that wear kilts daily, and speak the Gaelic tongue, and yes they follow the old religion. However unlike the "Native Americans" the Scots have traveled beyond their former boundaries and taken their with them. For example the "Constitution of the United States" Is largely modeled after the "Declaration of Arbroath".

Like the Native Americans, the Scots were invaded and efforts made to force their assimilation, this was done by the Anglo_Saxons, who created the Mythological "United Kingdom." And like the Native Americans there were among the Scots those that capitulated with the Invaders, but also like the Native Americans the Scots have those that refuse to give up or give in! In the word of William Wallace.....SAORSA (FREEDOM)
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UlsterScotNutt 
Posted: 13-Mar-2008, 02:03 PM
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QUOTE (scotborn @ 12-Mar-2008, 05:39 PM)

1. religion, americans are the most religious people in the western world with high church attendance rates and many branches of christianity running through their society, wether this be catholic, protestant or through to evangelist or pentacostal. Religion plays a huge part in americans lives and has great influence in the beliefs of americans, in terms of morality, science and politics.

in scotland the church attendance rate was previously 6 %, typically made up of the elderly , though this is increasing due to polish immigrants. The scots are not religious in anyway, in the last census over 55% of scots described themselves as atheists while the scots that did hold a belief in god where spiritual and not attend any church. It should be noted that asking someones religious convictions in scotland is seen as a political question with very little ties to actual religion. Church and christianity do not play a part in the majority of scots lives. I myself have never known any christians or befriended any christians. going to church once a week would be considered odd to most young people in scotland.

2. americans are highly patriotic and self praising, on the other hand scots are proud to be scottish but are not patriotic like americans and tend to be self depracating. I believe scots are more down to earth in terms of inward and outward perspective. Oscar wilde himself said "patriotism is an act of the vicious" and I tend to believe that

3. I believe americans are far more sentimental than the scots and I have experianced this through american literature, music and culture.

4. Our dialect is completely differant and I belief that scots culture can only be experianced properly through scots dialect. it is hard to explain but my american friends understand it, now that they understand our language.

it is hard for me to right down our differances because I believe americans and scots are so differant that it is hard to pinpoint and construct a sufficiant answer for you. I would advise visiting scotland to see for yourselves.

scotborn, 1) true, big reason USA exists today is because of religion and much of what is USA has a religious foundation.
2) True, patriotism does run deep in the States, I hope people don't abuse it as in nationalism. I would hope and trust more good has come of her patriots then bad. Patriotism demands an understanding of one's past and a vision for the future.
3) I would agree to the sentimentality. We are a short time in history as a nation and peoples. This may creat a longing effect.
4) I can understand that. Just look at dialects within this country alone. Your speech tells alot of your culture and those outside of it have no clue.
5) I was in Scotland in 1974 and would love to go back. Maybe next year

Thanks
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